Heathrow crossing H numbers

[Le Singe]

Hello, I am new to this forum but have been flying whirlies for nearly 10 years and have over 150 hours. I recently was taking a friend for a ride in south London and we decided to go across Heathrow as I have heard this is OK in a heli. When I asked for clearance the controller asked me about H numbers and I could not find this on my 1:250,000 chart. Does anyone know what these are, Im assuming these are helipads in London but I did tell him I didnt want to land anywhere just cross Heathrow. He got quite cross will me and told me to remain clear. Any help would be appreciated.

[pitot212]

Might be worth looking at this..
1:50k London Helicopter Chart Amendments | VFR & Chart Information | Airspace Policy (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=64&pagetype=65&appid=8&mode=lhelirtes50map)

[B47]

This must be a wind up. Please G*d it is.

If not, I fear you are about to contribute to increasing my insurance premiums, blundering about like this.

Where did you train? We need to know!

[minigundiplomat]

Le Singe (apt name it would seem),

so you were out jollying about South London with a friend, when you suddenly decided to cross one of the worlds most congested zones of airspace, for sh1ts and giggles, with no real knowledge of how that airspace works.

Have I got that right?

Imagine if I drove my car backwards and forwards through your living room, and when you appeared, justified my actions by saying 'sorry, I dont really know what I'm doing'.

I agree with pitot212, please stay on the ground and make the sky a safer place for the rest of us.

[firebird_uk]

Le Singe - Something for your Christmas list.

http://www.chinawholesalegift.com/pic/Toy-Gifts/Wind-Up-Toys-Gifts/WIND-UP-HELICOPTER-23063347633.jpg

You'll be safer - and so will we!

[Whirlygig]

Le Singe, I can't believe that during your 15 hours a year, you have managed NOT to know about the London Heli-lanes and Heathrow crossing. Heathrow is Class A airspace. Your up-to-date charts should tell you this and your air law studies should have told you the rest.

I'm afraid I also find your very first post on Pprune a little concerning.

Cheers

Whirls

[toptobottom]

Le Singe

Ever seen or heard of one of these (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1346/LondonHelicopterChart.pdf)before?! Have you ever taken any instruction for flying the heli-lanes? I'd recommend you take your story to a quality flying school for some serious revision - in the meantime, do yourself (and the rest of us a favour) - DON'T FLY :=

You're lucky the ATC only got cross - I'm surprised you still have your license!

TTB

[pitot212]

Just like firebird_uk's Christmas gift...a windup:bored:

[Flying Pencil]

Le Singe eh? You really are a monkey. :ugh:

[Le Singe]

It seems I should have known about the helilanes, I did think it was class A airspace but I though you could use special vfr, i do remember that from my training. Thanks to pilot212, this must be the chart they were refering to.

I am also a little upset with the responses from some of you, I was informaed that this forum would be helpful and that we pilots should stick together.

Anyway I know have the chart and will make sure i study it well and next time I will be properly prepared. Again thanks to pilot212 for your help.

For those you think im a a joke i can tell you that I also have a R44 rating as well as a R22.

Thanks,

Dave

[Whirlygig]

This forum is helpful and what people are suggesting is that you should should undertake some revision in air law and procedures, plan your flights, ask advice beforehand. I would also suggest that at 150 hours you are not experienced enough to skip checklists.

Cheers

Whirls

[HOVERJOCKI]

Hi Le Singe.
Firstly i don't fly in the UK but i see where these guys are coming from.
I came over there last year and went to the safety meeting they have at Redhill. They had a DVD that NATS had made about flying through the London heli lanes which i picked up.... pretty good viewing and is well put together. If you can find one of these grab it but it would be wise to do some kind of transition/familiarization training of the area especially after viewing that disk.
I fly in the states and so the rules aren't as strict as the UK and ATC will usually work with you if they aren't busy but looking at that disk and knowing the area (originally from London) thats not a good place to get lost in.

Curious to the other posters here, does an incident like this really effect everyone that flies the skies around London or just the individual like over here. I get that impression from the insurance rates quote in an earlier post or did i not understand properly.
The rules seem pretty strict and regimented over there and i have a few questions i would like to ask as this info will help me as i am looking to getting my PPL-H in the UK so this is good reading and learning for me.
I am used to a different style of flying and rules and i am aware that a few in the UK don't like the way things are done here in the USA and the way we fly and thats fare, it works both ways

Final for Le Singe, becareful mate, your fellow UK aviators don't seem too chuffed with you and i'm guessing you spent a fare chunk of change on that license (looking at those prices myself right now) and its REALLY easy to loose if you don't have your ducks lined up regardless of which side of the pond you are on.
Fly safe mate.

[pitot212]

I don't think it matters where you fly around the world, if you're going to transit someone's airspace it's a pilots job to study that airspace before you take off, so when the controller asks you to report at "x" you know where "x' is. So it's all down to planning ahead, surely that's what being a pilot is all about!

[n5296s]

How do you actually fly these? (It's academic for me since I'm in a different country but I'm curious). Flying along the river is simple enough, but how do you fly H7 accurately as it wanders over the SWs? Or H10 as it cuts across open country?Or doesn't anybody care about the exact line as long as you stick to the general intent of keeping out of everybody else's way?

[minigundiplomat]

Where possible, the routes are chosen to maximise time over open ground. As for how you fly them, accurately!

The good thing about flying through a major world city is there are plenty of landmarks to relate your position to, and the main route follows the river Thames.

Standard nav rules apply, but you do need your wits about you, you have to listen very carefully to clearances, and you never, ever, ever p1ss off the controller giving you the service.

[HOVERJOCKI]

Flying around McCarren is a breeze compared to Heathrow... remain west of the 19s, north of the 25s and shout when you want to change... remain at or below 3000'

[Flying Pencil]

Le Singe
I find it hard to believe your can really be surprised by some of the responses you have had. As far as I can tell you knew you had made an arse of yourself by your admission that the controller was cross with you, your response?? Simple, I'll go and tell the world and his wife on a (largely) professional pilots website!!
People have been kind enough to provide you with a link to a copy of a helilanes map. You've really never seen one before, or even heard of them in your 10 years flying 'whirlies'??
As for this forum being helpful, for the most part it is. It also has a tendency to act like a wolfpack and turn on the weakest!! This alone should highlight the gap in your knowledge of the airspace your flying around. Comments like I did 'think' it was class A airspace really don't help to save you from the pack :E
Finally, your first heathrow crossing is a blast. Try again but please take someone suitably qualified with you to show you the ropes. Why don't you ask one of the wolves if they fancy coming along?
n5296s
I for one would love to tell a heathrow controller I was 'sticking to the general intent' of the lane! In practise as Mini.. says, lots of landmarks and the 50,000 map has lots of details on. Not to say no one ever 'wanders' slightly.....

[HOVERJOCKI]

You'll find if you post on any of the forums you are likely to be met with mixed results, so be warned. This site is a little more civilized compared to others.
As you can see you will helped, mocked, or get some sort of verbal abuse (if you want to call it that) but at the end of the day you will get the advice you need.
You got lucky here, if you had posted this on the US based website you would probably have a web page dedicated just to you.
Again, fly safe mate.

[Le Singe]

Thanks to those who have been helpful. I am always suprised there is more to learn and this seems to be, on the whole, a great resource.

For those who slated my flying they have no idea how good i am. I did struggle a bit getting my PPL but with the 10 years experience behind me I feel like I could quite easily turn commercial. I suppose I need to look at the books once in a while but I think we are all guilty of letting the theory go but to be honest a book wont keep a whirly in the air for long!!

[Whirlygig]

Funny how sometimes Le Singe can spell and other times, can't? :}

Wind-up.:ok:

Cheers

Whirls

[Heli-phile]

Casting stones and all that guys,!!! just remember over 70% of all UK Class A airspace incursions are commited by CPL/ATPL qualified pilots.
Most of these without seeking clearance!!

Whether this is a wind up or not, don't reach for the flame thrower so quick
(even if he is a robbie jockey!!!!!!)

Chances are, sooner or later despite your best efforts you will get a letter of invitation from the Kremlin, I hope the enforcement guys are more tolerant than some poster on Pprune!!!

PS Singe remember "to fail to plan, is to plan to fail":O

[Whirlygig]

Where did that statistic come from Heli-phile?

If this isn't a wind-up (and I'm sure it is), I would like to know where Le Singe obtained his PPL and who does his LPCs?

If I bust Class A airspace, I sure as hell wouldn't come on Pprune and ask the assembled mass where I went wrong and why couldn't I fly through it???

Cheers

Whirls

[airmail]

As singe is French for monkey(s), I suspect a wind up??

[Heli-phile]

Got that 70% figure from a NATS tour back in the 90's when I was a "Nigel"

I would be interested if anyone has the recent figures - for better or worse!!

I don't think La Singe actually bust airspace, but pissed off the controller by wanting to without sufficient prep/planning/topos etc. (at least he asked first!!)

[Brilliant Stuff]

I would have thought the CAA would have put the video onto their website but the search can't find it.

No brainer really?

[perfrej]

Folks,

I have actually been a victim of an airspace intrusion going from Denham to my friend's heliport in the Stoke Poges area. Jet Ranger, right rear door off, a friend with a camera in that seat and two more on board. Had just got clearance to enter the Heathrow zone special VFR and started in. We managed to get a few minutes into it when another aircraft entered the zone without clearance. Needless to say, I was kicked out and directed back towards the Denham area as the other pilot apparently was on a different frequency while I was able to respond.

After circling for fifteen minutes we got clearance again and started in. Rain, colder and colder, 10 year-old in left rear seat freezing. The wacko then breached the zone again and we were sent back to Denham just before we reached Stoke Poges... On the third try we got through. Cold and with 45 minutes of fuel burned - fuel that was meant for the trip back to Sweden on the following day.

Anyway, the London heli lanes along with the Heathrow traffic is not for the weak of heart. My being a PPL(H) with about 500 hrs and never having flown in the UK before didn't exactly help, but I got through that ordeal and was able to pass straight south towards Calais on the following day - a wonderful 10.5 hour flight back to Bromma Airport in Stockholm, a flight that had to be terminated an hour before our destination due to adverse weather, but that's another story.

I studied the maps and contacted "London Special" in advance via e-mail. Even though I am fluent in (american) english, I had serious problems understanding some of the controllers. Actually, the french guys' "radio english" was easier to understand... My bad, though.

Joke or not, I am a bit concerned about the tone in the replies from my fellow PPruners. Why so harsh? Why so derogatory? Why not just correct him and say "You really need to study the Heathrow procedures before venturing on a flight there." Could it be cultural differences???

All the best for now,

P

[VeeAny]

You might also find these useful

Heathrow
Helicopter Routes in the Heathrow Zone (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGLL/EG_AD_2_EGLL_3-2_en.pdf)
Heathrow crossing operations chart (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGLL/EG_AD_2_EGLL_4-1_en.pdf)
London Heathrow AIP Entry including flight procedures (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGLL/EG_AD_2_EGLL_en.pdf)

Battersea
London Heliport Inbound/Outbound Flight Procedure (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGLW/EG_AD_3_EGLW_4-1_en.pdf)

The Battersea chart is for reference only, you cannot go there unless you have been with someone else who is already approved and then visited the tower for a brieifing.

But don't try flying the helilanes using these,you need a full size copy of the chart pitot212 linked to in his first post, there is a lot of detail on it.

GS

[VeeAny]

Ivor

Honest answer I don't know (see below) , but I've done several famil flights over the last few years and each one has required a tower visit, a briefing and on the last one two weeks ago the pilot concerned came out with a bit of paper with all the things they'd discussed on it (an aide memoir kind of thing for the ATC guys to make sure they've cover everything).

I've just called the tower there to ask why they insist on the tower visit and they say its what the heliport operator requires them (the atc contractor) to do. They want to make sure that pilots are aware of the airspace, joining and circuit procedures which are non standard, the requirements for getting to altitude for noise abatement as they get lots of noise complaints. Whether the Heliport operating company had anymore specific reasons I don't know.

GS

[ShyTorque]

Battersea is a private helipad so they can have any rules they like, just like you could if you were to allow helicopters to use your own property.

They can (and do) also close the heliport for weather reasons, btw.

[Ships Cat]

Singe, I am really surprised at your modesty in post #20, where you state just how good you are. 150 hours in 10 years averages out at 1 hour and 15 minutes per month, hardly enough to remain current, let alone to remain on the cutting edge.

Heed the advice offerred on this forum.:ok:

[airborne_artist]

What's the French for troll? Guys, you've been had. M Le Singe is sitting up in his internet tree making silly faces at you all..

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3221/3016220142_15ce9fe384.jpg

[Barndweller]

TLH (Battersea) now have a procedure in place to brief Pilot's in advance (depending on their experience) by phone and other means and complete the briefing after arrival - thus removing the need for a "famil" flight.

Barny

[DBChopper]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeees.... I'm going with "wind-up."

:ugh:

[FloaterNorthWest]

For those you think im a a joke i can tell you that I also have a R44 rating as well as a R22.


Great! So you can kill twice as many people!