Panorama BBC1 Monday 12th Oct - Why Hate Ryanair

[NutLoose]

Just a heads up so you can record it if desired, see

BBC - BBC One Programmes - Panorama, Why Hate Ryanair? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00n9mdm)

[Microburst2002]

Ryanair would surely be less hated by some if it did not paint its airplanes with those Bye Bye, Arrivederci, etc...
Specially if Ryanair uses government money to help Ryanair to turn them into jobless people.
As for the pax... they know that what they get for the money they pay.

[MPH]

Maybe 62 million pax are wrong? Luckly not all from the UK!!! Is this going to be another FR bashing?:bored:

[Fly380]

As a retired BA person I booked Ryanair about a month ago from Alicante to Gatwick return in November - a weekend Fri - Mon. BA have given up the route! Hand bagage only and paid with visa electron. 10 euros each way. You just have to follow the rules. M.O.L. tells you how to 'play' the rules. :ok:

[Fly380]

The 5 euro check in fee was waived on my flights. I think it was a mistake bringing it in. Next he may charge for visa electron. That would be a big mistake. :uhoh:

[bjones4]

Ryanair' Response

Ryanair - News : BBC Panorama Censors The Truth (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=09&month=oct&story=gen-en-091009)

And the correspondence between them and the person making the program.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/news/releases/2009/docs/Panorama%20Correspond.pdf

[AircraftOperations]

This show seems to be building up nicely, comparing all the comments flying backwards and forwards in that Ryanair published "factual" correspondance document.

[A and C]

As long as you understand that when you buy a Ryanair ticket you only buy the seat on one flight, anything else is extra. if the aircraft is late you will get no help what so ever.

Ryanair tell you that they are the low cost ailine but people fail to understand that along with low cost you get low service!

Ryanair is OK as long as you understand what you are buying, if you don't you are going to be disapointed.

[PAXboy]

[Yawn] FR is a cheap and popular target for any programme and MoL must be totally thrilled to get another wodge of free advertising on the BBC.

Having read the notice on FRs site (linked above) I have to say that I believe FR and would not be at all surprised to learn that the BBC is making false claims. I hope that is not the case but we all know that FR have no hidden charges. How can they be hidden if you have to click a button that agrees to the amount? If you don't like the amount, then back track to reduce it or not pay it.

I try not to fly on FR but my admiration for them continues every day. If Panorama wanted to look at how the legacy carriers are going to survive this recession and the long term influence of the ground breaking RyanAir - THEN they might have television worth watching.

[Capot]

people fail to understand that along with low cost you get low service!


What an odd assertion. I have never met a single person who didn't understand that perfectly well. I imagine that everyone who buys a Ryanair seat knows what they'll get. You would have to be brain-dead not to know.

They also understand perfectly well that Ryanair is not especially low-cost when all the prices are added up, and never has been.

Some people shrug their shoulders and find another carrier, sometimes paying quite a lot less in the process.

The others buy 62,000,000 one-way passenger journeys each year (NB: "passengers" is a far smaller number) and a tiny proportion of those whinge regardless, as they do about any airline.

The others switch off, ignore the ritual humiliation by the dreadful ground staff and cabin crew, read a book, turn up the iPod, and arrive safely and on time, without any complaint. I'm among them, although I always look elsewhere before doing it (hence the comment about BA being cheaper on occasions).

BBC's Panorama, with its legendary disregard for the facts that spoil a good story by a junior, excitable, inexperienced reporter with only a tiny grasp of the subject will presumably have picked up some anecdotal gossip by disgruntled staff and the whingers mentioned above, and made that into a 30-minute fantasy about Ryanair, thus giving MoL the perfect opportunity to publicise the real facts - and a lot of puff - in high-profile rebuttals. He'll prolong that as long as he possibly can, and why not?

[AltFlaps]

Normally I would agree - these threads on FR are a YAWNFEST!

But, the question was asked above - why do people appear to hate Ryanair?

I have several pals who fly for Ryanair in the UK & Ireland, and I can honestly say that it distresses some of them that they work for SUCH an unpopular outfit.

I believe the main reason that other pilot/airlines dislike Ryanair is because Ryanair are so openly aggressive and hostile towards everyone else. As someone mentioned above, just look at the 'Bye Bye' decals painted on their aircraft.

It'll eventually all catch up with him/them - it's just a shame they'll do so much damage so everyone else before that happens.

:suspect:

[Kerosine]

I was wondering if any of you chaps could comment on the QandA taking place below, if it's a realistic statement by MOL or complete tosh?

BBC
Pilots. Similarly we have spoken to a number, and one on the record. We understand
that 45 minutes is allocated each day to flight preparation, which means that pilots
frequently have to do part of this work in their own time, as 45 minutes is often
insufficient. Can you confirm and comment on this?MOL
Complete rubbish. 45 minutes is more than sufficient for 2 pilots (Captain and
First Officer) to complete flight preparations for their flights. Remember these
people are flying on the same aircraft every day, on routes they know very well,
where the only variable will be weather and passenger loads. We would be happy
to show you what’s involved in such flight preparation which can easily be
completed within 15 minutes. This is an example of Panorama clearly straying
into industrial relations, rather than focusing on facts.

[Doors to Automatic]

Ryanair would surely be less hated by some if it did not paint its airplanes with those Bye Bye, Arrivederci, etc...

I agree - they are already a very successful airline whatever anyone might think of them. They do not need to put such childish, purile nonsense on the side of their planes.

They obviously think they are being funny.

[Avman]

I believe the main reason that other pilot/airlines dislike Ryanair is because Ryanair are so openly aggressive and hostile towards everyone else

including their customers! Those who are happy to fly RYR are welcome to them. What worries me, is how legacy carriers are gradually descending to their level. There may soon not be a choice anymore.

[Rolling Stone]

What no one has raised/mentioned as yet is, Why fly Ryanair? There are lots of people who do fly on Ryanair NOT because they want to or because the like it, but because it is the only option on a number of the routes. IE. LTN/DUB. I fly on this route, not because I like to but because its the only option other than adding extra cost and time to my journey by driving extra miles to LHR. I take the discomfort/hassle because its the easier option. If there was another choice I would probably take it as long as it was less then £50 difference. Is this not the case with most people on other routes? Ryanair have been clever at manufacturing new routes that no one else is operating and there by having a monopoly.

[Coquelet]

the ritual humiliation by the dreadful ground staff and cabin crew

Dreadful ground staff ? dreadful cabin crew ? humiliated passengers ?
Where have you seen that ? Not at Ryanair, in my (rather extensive) experience of that carrier.

[PAXboy]

AltFlaps... openly aggressive and hostile towards everyone else. As someone mentioned above, just look at the 'Bye Bye' decals painted on their aircraft.

It'll eventually all catch up with him/them - it's just a shame they'll do so much damage so everyone else before that happens.I agree. They are aggressive because they want to make money and that often takes aggression.

But I disagree that it will catch up with him. The opposite is true - the legacies will catch up with him. He has re-written the rules and, as we all know, humans like to spend less money and will endure much to do so. This recession is the greatest gift to him. That is why BA are trying to cut back on T&Cs that are (essentially) 40 years out of date and that is why the big carriers have to amalgamate and it will be interesting to see how long before the USA and Euro nations agree to the inevitable big mergers. They will have to in order to retain any kind of airline jobs.

The other reason for the aggression is that MoL clearly wants to beat the Brits. He has said so countless times and I have seen his delight when saying that the Brits have been beaten by "a bunch of Micks". His words, so he clearly hates the British and wants to stick it to any that he can. And he has!

What drives that aggression? I doubt that we shall ever know and it does not matter. What is the case is that he has been the equivalent to the department store that changed the High Street and the out of town shopping mall that changed the department store and the Internet that is changing everything! That change may not be comfortable but it is unstoppable.

[Capot]

Coquelet...

Ah well, some people have all the luck. It's the apparent system-wide culture of contempt for their customers that grates. Dare I say that this comes through on pprune, on occasions.

[TightSlot]

Dare I say that this comes through on pprune, on occasions.

So Coy! Of course you dare say it - you say it all the time: It's a recurrent theme and is by now to a degree, predictable.

:hmm:

[TheBeak]

Ryanair says BBC is preparing ‘hatchet job’ for Panorama - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6868914.ece)

Panorama programme on BBC 1 on Monday. Should be interesting. Ultimately more free advertising for the bastards though.

[Xeque]

My access to the BBC is BBC World here in Thailand. I will watch out for the program with great interest.
My experience with Ryanair ended several years ago. During regular business trips to the UK I was based in Bishops Stortford and with family in Cornwall, the Stansted to Newquay service was appealing. However (and very obviously) a week long visit to Cornwall entailed at least one checked bag to carry a change of clothing, toilet kit etc. As a businessman I carried my briefcase with whatever documents I was working on at the time, passport etc. and I carried my laptop computer with all its bits and pieces in a separate hand carry bag.
It all worked splendidly in the beginning. I would book the best fares I could get given the notice my job gave me for a trip to Cornwall - I think the best deal I ever managed was £5 in one direction and £36 coming back.
Then one day, after something like a dozen return trips over the years, a child with granny glasses at check-in Newquay (for the return leg) told me that I could only take one bag into the cabin. Either my laptop or my briefcase had to go into the hold. This came out of nowhere. 5 days earlier I had flown from Stansted with two items of cabin baggage with no problem whatever. I had to empty my briefcase and stuff the contents in pockets and into the computer bag and send my empty briefcase to the hold. There has to be some Irish logic in this.
Needless to say that was the last time I used Ryanair. I went back to using the train. And guess what? Given all the additioonal charges now levied by Ryanair, it is actually cheaper to travel from Bishops Stortford to Truro by train and the time difference (allowing for a taxi from Newquay to Truro) is within 20 minutes.
Bye bye Ryanair!

[HarryMann]

Why Hate Ryanair?

Because Easyjet does it better...

[tb10er]

Jealousy??

[d71146]

Now we all know where this thread is heading

[call100]

Why hate Ryan Air, seems to be a good subject to me. It's an obvious 'Marmite' argument. The usual Daily Mail readers will partake in the BBC bashing as usual (No minds of their own). But, at the end of the day there is an undeniable love or hate divide (I suggest more hate) on the Ryan air debate.
Why should they be treated any differently to any other company who have been exposed by Panorama or any other programme come to that?
Whatever the outcome, I suspect more people will now watch the programme because of the row, than might have before it.

[jimsmitty01]

Why would the BBC pick on a company that is making profits during a recession?? A company like this offers employment for 1000's and offers the cheapest airfares around...

Yes they are cut throat, yes they add lots of fee's to the standard fare... but would you rather them not make money and go down the same route as BMI or Air Lingus??

People who slate Ryanair clearly haven't a clue about running a successful business..(or as stated previously.. jealous)

[mickyman]

Call100

'(I suggest more hate) on the Ryan air debate.'

Is this comment from personal experience or
from reading posts on here?

What percentage of the 60M passengers carried
were unhappy do you think?

MM

[TartinTon]

Why should they be treated any differently to any other company who have been exposed by Panorama or any other programme come to that?

Mainly because Panorama very rarely records a programme where they offer a balanced point of view. Usual BBC claptrap from an ill-informed reporter trying to sensationalise something where there is nothing to be sensationalised. I'm sure O'leary is laughing his ass off again.

[EI-022]

Usual rubbish from the BBC. FR is not the best airline in the world, but if you buy a ticket (which 67 million people did last year), you are agreeing to a "basic" standard of service. If you pay €1 for a flight you have no right to complain.

KISS: It is not rocket science, if you dont like FR don't fly with them.

I would love to see a documentary on BA or AL work practices...highlighting to utter waste of money and taxpayers dosh. Love or hate FR, but rememeber they earn their money unlike other airlines and the BBC.

Another great free advert of O Leary and co..well done :D


The Beak,

What airlines do feel are good to work for, since you are not a fan of FR?

[42psi]

I'll tread in here with some trepidation.

Firstly, I'll make clear I'm biased .... I spent over 17 yrs working for EI and enjoyed it.

You'll see from that I was working at the time FR came on the scene and started impacting.

I miss those times and particularly the folks I worked with.


I have flown with FR and I have to say that my experience to date has been that I got just what it said on the tin.

Paid very little, got from A to B and then back to A exactly as I should and on time.

Service was as expected/paid for ...... "hello, goodbye".

The a/c was newish ans the seat OK.

The only nit-picking criticism I can just about come up with is that the crew's english wasn't all that clear.

But then I've travelled with many "foreign" airlines with the same issue and havn't seen cause to jump up and down complaining of it.

Apart from the language bit I really saw no difference in the trip beween FR & EZY flights.


Because of my background I have a sort of love/hate/respect/annoyance viewpoint on FR.

I can't stand some of the rubbish MOL comes out with .. but I can't help admire his consistency and ability to promote the company and achieve objectives.



I will watch the prog with interest.

However, how often do you watch such things, with industry knowledge, and sit there willing them to actually ask the crucial question which would clear up something only for the interviewer to suddenly move on :ugh:


For me it boils down to the fact that I can get to travel at a low cost. I compare the fares and decide.

For day trips (planned in advance) with no bags then FR (or EZY) often work out better value.

For trips requiring luggage or the chance that my plans might need to change it might be a "legacy" carrier.


FR clearly meet a market demand at the moment. Time will tell if they can continue to do this and if it's FR being smart and responding to a market led demand or creating one.


Part of me would love to see the "good old days" back ... but annother part of me realises that might be good for me but not for the punters!

[call100]

Call100

'(I suggest more hate) on the Ryan air debate.'

Is this comment from personal experience or
from reading posts on here?

What percentage of the 60M passengers carried
were unhappy do you think?

MM
Probably because I don't know anyone who has a good word to say about them. I've flown with them twice and to be honest it was an horrendous experience. I will not use them ever again.
I don't base my opinions on what I read on here.....As it reads, 'I Suggest'. Leaving it open to counter argument and differing opinions.
If people love them then fine...As I said, it's a 'Marmite' argument. If people want to fly with them, good luck.
Oh and the one emotion I lack about the whole issue is one of jealousy. I don't run an airline so have nothing to be jealous of.

[captain.k]

at the end of the day, travelling by air is not a novelty anymore. when travelling short haul, people just want to get from A to B in the shortest and cheapest way possible. ryan air aim to provide a cheap service, not a quality service they dont proclaim otherwise. we might hate them, but if the same flight with ryan air is £20 cheaper than easyjet, were still going to ryanair, just like we would choose the cheaper train or taxi service.

[Airlift21]

Personally, I like the way that Ryanair keep banging on about the fact that they don't lose bags like other airlines. That's because they don't carry bags like any other airline! I don't hate Ryanair and must commend them on being able to carry 67m passengers a year which not many airlines can boast at the moment. All that said, I do think FR's bubble is going to burst in the not too distant future. When the economy DOES begin to recover properly and when people DO have a proper choice about which airline they fly with, then we might be seeing a very different Ryanair in the future.

[El Grifo]

Oh we here on the volcano just love Ryanair.

Love them we do !

From the end of the month, they are starting weekly flights from a variety of European locations to our little sceptred isle.

We need the tourism, we need to fill our hotels and villas

Viva Ryanair.

They are no worse than any of the other shyte carriers that shoehorn you into your little space at £125 a cell.

With Ryanair you get it for around £35 or less, makes it a little more tolerable.

The quality of air travel provided by the major UK charters is a frigging disgrace and possibly even a danger. I hope I am never involved in an forced evacuation from one of their compressed spam cans.

[super737]

The problem imho is that people who complain about these charges were the ones who decided they didn't need to read the terms and conditions. You buy a ticket, you buy a contract simples!

People here you constantly slag off a profitable company helping many economies either stupid enough to ignore the contract or were so useless at their jobs with FR they were released to go to greener pastures.

[mickyman]

Call100

Can you explain what exactly was an 'horrendous experience'
when you flew with them - just out of curiosity.I have no
intension of belittling your complaint but would just like to
know what was wrong with it.

I agree with you about the 'marmite' comment but obviously
60m plus find something worth putting up with.

MM

[TheBeak]

The Beak,

What airlines do feel are good to work for, since you are not a fan of FR?
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=5244350)

Having only flown for one I am hardly well placed to comment. From what I have seen though I think the TUI group of airlines seem very good, I also generally like Easyjet, Jet2 seems good, Lufthansa, KLM, Thomas Cook and Monarch to name a few.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Because Easyjet does it better...

And loses money!

[TightSlot]

Just a reminder - This program hasn't actually been shown yet - at least watch the damn thing before hostilities commence. Some of you are simply mobilising your arguments just prior to rushing forward to the pre-prepared Maginot Line of your defensive positions. From within your concrete bunkers, you can remain safely sheltered from the different opinions that don't match you own. Ryanair trench warfare looms - Sigh! (Possibly enough of that metaphor now I sense):bored:

FR opinions will always be polarised - The general consensus seems to be that everybody loves them until some circumstance arises which causes that person to change their mind. If you have not yet had an unfortunate experience with FR then Hooray! Good for you and enjoy your flights. If you have had such an experience, then you should know that attempts to warn off those in the other camp are akin to micturating into a stiff breeze.

[TheBeak]

Nicley put.

[His dudeness]

I´m a executive pilot and I hate them for 2 reasons:

1) My first boss decided to sell his airplane after RYR started to serve Hahn-Kerry. His Factory is closeby and they bought something like 20000seats and got rid of me.

2) Every outback airfield where they turn up is completely ****** up afterwards. Security, screening, not allowed to walk on the apron as long as their airplane is there, no fuel whilst a RYR arrives (penalty in airfield contract if delayed by airfield) and EVERYWHERE the landing fees for us go up to pay the substitudes they received in form of reduced landing fees.

[Remers]

I was just suprised that the HEAD of COMMUNICATION had so many errors in his emails of a speeling and grammatical nature!

[Gassy]

"I was just suprised that the HEAD of COMMUNICATION had so many errors in his emails of a speeling and grammatical nature!"

Very funny!!!

There is a very simple arguement here......if people dont like Ryanair......they shouldnt fly with them. If they are THAT bad, then they wont have any passengers left.

But at the moment they are making money when a lot of others are not. In respect to that, ML is doing a great job.

Oh....and on the "marmite, love or hate" comment............A lot of people hate marmite, but im sure they still sell loads of it ;)

[call100]

Call100

Can you explain what exactly was an 'horrendous experience'
when you flew with them - just out of curiosity.I have no
intension of belittling your complaint but would just like to
know what was wrong with it.

I agree with you about the 'marmite' comment but obviously
60m plus find something worth putting up with.

MM

Pointless going into it in my view....
Re read my original post. I was asking why they should be treated any differently to any other company investigated by any programme maker...
I thought the title was very apt.
Lets watch and see eh??

[Ancient Observer]

I don't like Guinness, - I don't drink it.
I don't like Texas Pacific Group's (TPG) little airline - aka Ryanair - so I don't fly with them.

End of.

Nothing to debate.


TPG is an American private equity group that also ownsed Gate Gourmet when they had their little problem.

[PAXboy]

Airlift21All that said, I do think FR's bubble is going to burst in the not too distant future. When the economy DOES begin to recover properly and when people DO have a proper choice about which airline they fly with, then we might be seeing a very different Ryanair in the future.Sorry - but their bubble is NOT going to burst. If the economy recovers people will want to start travelling again and will want to not spend money. Also, each year, a new batch of folks turn 18 and want to get away from their parents. They have no money and do not mind being squashed. This is why MoL does not care if you never fly with him again because, there will always be more folks walking down the ramp.

Al GrifoOh we here on the volcano just love Ryanair.
We need the tourism, we need to fill our hotels and villas
Viva Ryanair.Just watch out for when the subsidies stop and they move the aircraft onto more lucrative routes. Check those French routes where people bought second houses because FR was flying there and now they are not. Then the hotels and villas start to empty again. That is because FR do not care about any individual route. Nothing is sacrosanct.

They are very, very clever and the post from His dudeness is probably the single most enlightening post of all the FR threads (Although I have not read every single post in every such thread as I do log off PPRUNE occasionally [although some will not believe that!])
The changes to the small, regional fields is of great interest and I shall watch the BBC1 prog (remember?!) to see if it is mentioned.

[Sober Lark]

You can construe the meaning of 'hidden charges' in different ways.

From Ryanair's point of view they are fair in that they clearly cover the scale of charges within their terms and conditions which people sign up to when they purchase a ticket.

From the consumer point of view 'hidden charges' can be interpreted as paying more for a service than you expected to pay?

[ladylily63]

Firstly,we have travelled Ryanair several times along with other low cost carriers and hate to tempt fate but have never had any problems whatsoever with them. Flights have always been on time and we have found the boarding system to be well organised unlike some other low cost carriers. There are no hidden charges it is all stated in black and white!!
I believe the flights are great value ,we have just flown Stansted to Malaga £60 return for hubby and me and have booked the same in Feb for £30 return! We only took hand luggage and I fully accept that I may be told to place my small handbag in my case (which I wasnt) but how anyone can complain beats me !!

I will be watching tomorrow's Panorama and the only thing I will question is if they come up with any safety issues as that is of paramount concern to me.

If I want pampering (which I do on occasions more so on long hauls ) I will choose a different carrier meantime I am more than happy with Ryanair thank you

[smala01]

This whole thread amused me.

Although the Ryanair pros and cons been done to death countless times we still manage to to fill up three pages.

I think the shows title "Why do we hate Ryanair" is very apt!


Smala01

[Guest 112233]

Panorama - dissapeared down the plug hole for me big time with their "Expose'" of WI FI Networking in schools - Me a "Technician Engineer". Tightslots' warning is apposite. Let's watch the prog. MOL's outburst on BBC R4's "You and Yours" the other week suggests that there may be a few sparks. A lot will depend on wheather RYR cooperated with the BBC - best to hope that the thing does not degenerate into a set of "Vox Pop" interviews along the lines of "Ryan Air lost my Teddy Bear/Mother/Grand Piano " sort of cheap dialog.

Yes I have my personal issues with them, but a national broadcast should focus on the bigger issues of their ecomomic effect. E.G Boeing. Airport route developement etc. Lets see if the BBC make a good job of a complex subject.

CAT III

[Capot]

Tightslot

You remarkedSo Coy! Of course you dare say it - you say it all the time: It's a recurrent theme and is by now to a degree, predictable.Sadly true, of course, as is the predictability of your response.

Of course, if Ryanair's culture of contempt for its customers - from the top down - were to become a thing of the past, I would be the first to acknowledge that, just as I have frequently praised its maintenance system and standards elsewhere on pprune.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Channel Four did a similar show a few years back, was it Dispatches?? Seem to remember they had to make things up in order for it to be remotely interesting and Ryanair got the better of them and have gone from strength to strength. Suspect the same will be true of this one.

[Ancient Observer]

There is no chance that Ryanair will do anything other than survive and prosper.

They are the airline that has allowed the expanding middle class in UK and Ireland to take 3 or 4 holidays per year, and allowed even those young middle class with onerous mortgages to aspire to 2 holidays per year.

No-one will take that away from the middle classes.

This was all covered about 4 years ago by one of those (normally boring) CAA reports. However, their web-site is so unfriendly that I can't be bothered to find the url.

[El Grifo]

Here's what TTG are saying :-

Ryanair in row over BBC 'hatchet job' - Travel Trade Gazette (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=3147514&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=3147514&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=3147514&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=3147514&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=3147514&articleTitle=Ryanair%20in%20row%20over%20BBC%20'hatchet%20jo b'#)

[Capetonian]

The Channel 4 documentary took a different approach, it concentrated on the long hours and difficult working conditions endured by the aircrew, and implied that safety could be compromised. It also showed the disgusting state of some of the cabin fittings and seats, something of which I had personal experience on my first, and hopefully last, Ryanair flight.

Tonight's Panorama is apparently going to concentrate on hidden charges and unethical pricing practices.

[west lakes]

And of course the secret filming by the BBC that, apparently, took place in flight is fully acceptable and ethical.

[Gassy]

Well here goes! On now

[davidjohnson6]

What happened to the Panorama I knew from the 1990s ? Where was the tough investigative journalism ?

It almost seemed to be a case of the Panorama crew just rolling over like a pussy cat !

[Guest 112233]

It was a lot better than I thought it would be - The TWR at BHX needs a re paint. A clarification for the Air crew getting 45 Mins to prepare notes from NOTAMS briefing reports and approach briefings. Did I miss understand 45 Mins for 12 Sectors ! No mention of actual crew roster timings - Re Prev; it was a pussy cat Job.

CAT III

[Rob1975]

Oh dear... paid slightly more to fly with aer lingus to dublin on wednesday... the bbc have actually encouraged me to take allegiance with ryanair:hmm:! very poor "reporting", think panorama should concentrate on issue of bbc spending next programme...half an hour of free advertising for RYR! Priceless!

[daz211]

All in all the longest TV advert for Ryanair ever.
The program makers couldnt dig any dirt so they just kept pointing out
LOW FARES, NEW AIRCRAFT, 2P FLIGHTS and many more posative points
well done the BBC and I bet MOL is loving the free Advert.

[Mikehotel152]

Very good free advertising for Ryanair. I imagine MO'L will be delighted with the programme!

[The Real Slim Shady]

Did I miss understand 45 Mins for 12 Sectors

You did :)

Even if you are rostered 6 sectors after the first 2 you get new weather and NOTAMS delivered to the aircraft hence you check them there and then.

If I am rostered base to DUB and return then base to Faro I won't even look at the Faro weather until I get back from DUB: no point as everything will change.

And as for NOTAMS - turned up for work to find Prague had NOTAM'd the airport closed: phoned Ops, asked them to check. The response from Prague was......we are open. Why NOTAM a closure then?

[Rusland 17]

All in all the longest TV advert for Ryanair ever.Not necessarily: it depends on what you want from an airline. As far as I was concerned, the programme just made me thankful that I can afford not ever to have to fly with Ryanair.

This was very much "new" Panorama - lightweight and rather insubstantial, and told us little, if anything, we did not already know.

[Sober Lark]

Methinks the 'agenda' was delicately subtle and concerns planting the seeds of doubt.

[Capetonian]

I wonder how much O'Leary paid them for this advertising. He must be laughing all the way to the bank. If this is aggressive investigative journalism, my pussycat could do better, or as Denis Healey said of Sir Geoffrey Howe : "this was like being savaged by a dead sheep." O'Leary turned every word and phrase to his advantage and comes across as smart, affable, and ebullient. I still wouldn't fly on his airline, but I'm sure he has earned the respect of most people who saw the programme. The BBC should be ashamed of itself.

This interview was also interesting :
BBC - Panorama - Uncut: Ryanair's Michael O'Leary (http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8298000/8298750.stm)

[Basil]

Re the pilot (but represented by an actor) comment about check in 45 min before departure for a 6 sector day - couple of points for the non cognoscente:
Almost everyone I know arrives in briefing before their 'on duty' check in time. Makes for a relaxed operation. I will refrain from comment upon whether I think STD -45 is a REASONABLE time to come on duty. :rolleyes:
Used to fly 6 sector days around Scotland in the winter in BEA. That was when some of the independent boys were saying we didn't work. :hmm:

[Ten West]

True, but you can walk out of a Pound shop and you're back on the street again. I don't fancy my chances going down in the ocean and relying for my evacuation on staff whose primary onboard role (roll?) is the retailing of sandwiches! ;)

Everyone has their own reasons why they love or hate Ryanair. Personally I'd never fly with them out of principle, for many reasons that are not worth going into on here as this subject's been done to death already.

If others do, then good luck to them and I wish them every happiness on their travels. It's just not for me, that's all.

[TurningFinals]

Quote FR website


Speaking tonight after the broadcast of BBC Panorama Michael O'Leary said,

"Infamy, infamy - Panorama has it infamy!"

To celebrate the 11 false claims made by BBC Panorama Ryanair is releasing 1.1million FREE seats at midnight (12th Oct) on www.ryanair.com (http://www.ryanair.com/) - where people can also see Michael O'Leary's full unedited Panorama interview outside Ryanair's AGM.



Ryanair - Notice : Infamy infamy - Panorama has it infamy! (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/notices.php?notice=gops&code=091012-Panorama_has_it_infa-GB)

[bigdaviet]

There were a few bits and pieces for the ryanair hater in there, but on the whole I thought Ryanair came across pretty well. I was surprised by this and have to agree that MOL will be very happy with the programme. Any advertising is good advertising for MOL and Ryanair got a whopping half an hour of it tonight.

I thought the programme was balanced but very lightweight on both sides of the argument.

As far as the bbc is concerned well it was stated that Panorama were seeking to find out "what makes ryanair such a successful business." Well as MOL says its not rocket science so do we really need 'investigative journalists' to waste our money on trying to find out when a quick look at wikipedia will tell you everything we saw tonight.

[PAXboy]

If the BBC wants to spend our money on revealing dubious behaviour, their reporter of their 'Inside Out' prog in the North East and Cumbria has done far better than the FR reporter:

Cat registered as hypnotherapist
The regulation of hypnotherapists in the UK is so lax that even a cat can become accredited, the BBC has found.Chris Jackson, presenter of Inside Out in the North East and Cumbria, registered pet George with three industry bodies.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Cat registered as hypnotherapist (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8303126.stm)

[Abusing_the_sky]

I just came home from work, dead curious about this Panorama thing, i asked Mr ATS to record it for me.
So.... Let me get this right. There were no safety issues nor punctuality. Re the STN incident, it wasn't all RYR's fault. Not many people know this but pax lost flights also because the security channels that day went all wrong. The airport could be at blame for that one too.
The CC who said "we're just a number to them". Yes we are, and if you do your job right, your number won't be up! Sales wise, you go in, set your trolley up, do your best and you'll get the job done. You get pushed to sell, so what? Why are people so bothered about this? It's our commission at the end of the day. Last month i topped my wages up with £320 commission thank you very much. The other day I walked into NEXT, and from the door to the first clothes rail thingy i must've been stopped by 4 girls asking "hi, you alright, do you need any help?" Yes it bloody annoyed me, I am perfectly capable of choosing and buying my own clothes thank you very much. But! Did i complain about it? No, I smiled and said no thank you.
As an advice to fellow CC, I tend to treat ALL pax as "mistery pax". That way no one can say to me "you haven't tried hard enough". :ugh: Come to think of it, how many people work 30hrs a week tops and get lots of money for it? It's like having a part time job with full time wages!
Oh dear oh dear, 45mins is not enough for pilots to do their briefings. Ok, so how many safety related incidents happened because of that? Oh, that's right, none. Zero. Nada.
Ryanair has the worst customer service... Please don't tar everyone with the same brush. I'll go above and beyond to be there for you. But don't take the michael. Don't treat me like dirt. Don't blame me for a bad morning and that stupid parking fee you had to pay. Don't you think for a second that the security queue was my fault. Just don't...
Ok ok, i said it before and i'll say it again, there are bad eggs in every basket and god knows we do have some bad eggs. Just SOME, bud sadly it only takes a few to think everyone else is exactly the same...
Well this was a great amusement (for the whole 30 mins). Conclusion? FR is still cheap to fly with, there are still 2p flights going round, "hidden charges" are actually in the T&C's (have a read if you don't believe me); FR is a business. Business' make money. By any means. Simple as that.

As for the BBC, i expect a full refund of the TV License we (and you) pay. They moaned about cheap, no frills FR. Well dear "journalists", those 30mins were "cheap, no frills" journalism. Great free advertising tho! :ok:

[Abusing_the_sky]

I just remembered the bit with " £5 fee to print your boarding card using your own pc, printer, electricity"

A friend of mine is getting divorced. She can't afford a solicitor so she uses one of those websites specialized in divorce, specialized in divorce documents and procedures to be more precise. She pays about £30 per drafted document. The company e-mails her the drafted documents and she sends them to court. Nothing else.
So, because she obviously doesn't know how to write the said documents herself, she pays someone else to do it for her. And all she does is printing them off, using her own pc, printer and electricity.
So with the £5 fee for printing your boarding pass using your own stated above, it's exactly the same thing as my friends' divorce documents. When pax will know how to draft (write) their own boarding pass, then fair enough, the £5 fee is out of order. Until then, i see no other option than to pay the fee and enjoy your holiday/ short break/ business trip

:ok:

[top jock]

Abusing_the_sky,

I think you kinda lost it a little there with the second post but the first one wasnt too bad.

At this stage everybody knows what you get when you book a Ryanair flight. It has been in the news, in the papers and on sites like this telling everybody. Its like anything i buy, if they suit my travel needs i will fly with them. I wont travel on a weeks holiday with them due to there bag charges but EI are coming a close second with them charge wise but they do give you 5 KG's more but charge more as well.

People can come on here and say how bad they are or how great they are but at the end of the day if the flight is cheap enough i will buy it. A friend of mine is going to Cork from Dublin and the train will cost him 55Euro one way or a return flight with the Ryans is 12 Euro incl taxes and charges but no a bag. Thats cheap, thats the model and that works like it or not.

[The Real Slim Shady]

TopJock

The trains should be cheaper. Why does it cost over £100 return, Nottingham to London, when I can fly FR EMA to Berlin or Alicante for less?

Maybe if the train companies adopted a similar loco model it would get people to use them instead of their cars.

[HeathrowAirport]

I wonder if MOL is on this forum. :)

[top jock]

I have no idea why they are not cheaper, at least you get legroom, a nice drink and sambo on them

[Capot]

I'm listening to the uncut doorstep interview (on BBC website via Ryanair's) as I write............hilarious.....................game set and match to MOL!

Especially the last few minutes about the Beeb wasting their TV Tax money on flying over on BMI. Brilliant.

As for the poor idiot of a presenter who wasn't allowed to agree to an uncut interview for inclusion in the Panorama programme, why on earth did they waste any money at all on the whole team showing up outside the White House and door-stepping MOL for him to say again "the interview must be uncut" and then get in 10 minutes of fabulous publicity.

An uncut interview is a perfectly reasonable demand from someone who knows how little Panorama cares for the facts that might spoil a good story.

What the hell did the prat mean by "hidden" charges? That's the last thing they are. I guess he meant "extra" charges, but what a stupid use of language.

[PAXboy]

TR Slim ShadyTopJock. The trains should be cheaper. Why does it cost over £100 return, Nottingham to London, when I can fly FR EMA to Berlin or Alicante for less?

Maybe if the train companies adopted a similar loco model it would get people to use them instead of their cars.TopJockI have no idea why they are not cheaper, at least you get legroom, a nice drink and sambo on them.The trains have 100 years of historical expense and infrastructure as, with varying years, do the legacy airlines.

The trains (through various companies) have to pay for:
Every inch of track they run on
The land beneath the tracks
The land either side of the tracks for (I think) 2m
Any trees that overhang the tracks they pay to have them pruned (or is that PPRuNed???)
Maintenance and ownership of the tunnels through which they run
Maintenance and ownership of the bridges over which they run
Some countries recover these costs from the pax via the taxpayer and some directly from the paxOnce an aircraft leaves the ground, it runs for 'free' through the air bearing only it's own costs - not that of the air around it that supports it's very flight. Naturally, there are overflying costs and ATC costs but these are in a different league to owning and paying for every cubic inch of the air!

MoL would not run a train service because the legacy costs are too great.

[Rusland 17]

The trains should be cheaper. Why does it cost over £100 return, Nottingham to London, when I can fly FR EMA to Berlin or Alicante for less?

Maybe if the train companies adopted a similar loco model it would get people to use them instead of their cars.
But you're comparing the full-price, flexible train fare with a restricted, advance-purchase air fare. Not a fair comparison at all.

Britain's railways do operate a low-cost model. If I want to travel from London to Cardiff, for example, I can do so for around £27 return if I book in advance and specify the train on which I want to travel (but the fare will rise as the cheapest seats sell out). If I'm able to accept some restrictions then I would pay between £60 and £80, and if I want to be completely flexible and travel at peak times I would pay about £160. That is exactly how low-cost airlines work.

For your specific example, the lowest, restricted train fare between Nottingham and London is £18 return - a far cry from the £100 you claim.

[170to5]

I have to say that my biggest problem with this program is that it centred solely on the cost of flying with RYR. I was hoping that there would be at least slightly more interest (although I shouldn't have expected it in fairness) in the way in which Mr O'Leary and his company treats and employs his staff. True, there are plenty who enjoy working for RYR but they (and I realise that I might be talking about you) are also working on some of the poorest conditions in Europe. There are those of us who take the opinion that flying is a career, not a job, and unfortunately the working practices of RYR which have allowed them to become so profitable have also degraded and dehumanised the industry as a whole.

This leads to the debate of paying for a TR etc, which is another story. But my 20 cents (I actually use sterling but so the saying goes):

I am saddened that the general public, who now expect to fly to Malaga, Scally-cante or wherever else they head to to catch their sun for 30 quid each way, are so ignorant (and are seemingly unwilling to be made conscious) of the cost of:

- flying a 70 million dollar jet aeroplane through some of the busiest skies on the face of the earth, burning (I must admit the exact number has slipped my mind, I was in work VERY early this morning) c6 tonnes of jet fuel (at between £700 and £1000/tonne - I believe this is accurate in £, it may be in $, if so I apologise, I burn it, I don't pay for it)

- paying the people who fly inside it a respectable wage for doing a reasonable days work (and this brings out the sad truth that most people think we are work shy and overpaid.)

- the insurance of the aeroplane, and those who fill its seats, both passengers and crew

- the other costs, such as 'security' charges, airport taxes, landing fees, ATC charges, overnight costs, ongoing maintenance of aircraft to some (if not very possibly THE) highest safety standards in the world

that when someone (and sadly in the race for the bottom, where employees come a very firm last, there are few who do these days) charges the honest cost of taking each person in each seat to their destination, they go bust.

All because Michael O'Leary told the public 'look, you can fly from A to B for 5 quid!'. And the public, sheepishly, follow - without concern for the people who have to work for people like (and not necessarily just MO'L, who just happens to be the best at it) the airline bosses who will happily say 'we put safety first'. I can tell you that that is a lie. It is a lie in the strongest sense of the word. Flight Ops put safety first, and manage to make an airline safe.

I risk heading off at a tangent, if I haven't already done so. My point is that I wish the program could have made the general public aware, and interested in, Ryanair's employees - many of whom had, as they saw it, no choice but to work for them. The reason that they pay for their own uniforms, training (which costs up to £30,000, before having to cover the costs of living WITHOUT PAY during 2.5 months of TR and line training before safety pilot release), medicals, overnights, the reason that they are contractors with no guaranteed income and the risk of being sent home at a minute's notice, who fly 6 sector days and work for longer than anyone can reasonably expected to do so safely and without serious fatigue, is because Mr O'Leary took advantage of the general public's biggest failing - he offered them a bargain.

Strong words possibly, and I know that some people won't agree that he's the harbinger of doom. But remember that Michael O'Leary was once quoted, when asked how he managed his employees so effectively, as answering with one word.

Fear.

I hope that to those of you who are planning to fly with the Blues and Yellows in the near future will at least take the few minutes to read this and understand where the £6 fare comes from.

[Xeque]

I haven't seen the Panorama programme yet. Panorama is shown on BBC World but this particular programme hasn't been trailed whilst I've been watching. I did see the doorstep interview though thanks to the link in PPRuNe.
MOL won that hands down if only because the BBC interviewer was completely unprepared.
Why didn't they get Paxman (Jeremy that is :))to do the job - then we could have seen two bullies slugging it out face to face.
These (so-called) investigative programmes are all very well provided the homework has been done properly. For me a good start would have been if the BBC had arrived on MOL's doorstep with an accurate bottom line comparison of what Ryanair would have charged to get the film crew plus camera and sound equipment to Dublin as apposed to what BMI actually charged. BOTTOM LINE! Itemise all Ryanair's charges exactly as they are levied including the cost of a cup of coffee and something to eat en route. Is BMI catering included? I don't know but it's that sort of detail that would have made the doorstep interview interesting.
I await the main programme but I have a feeling it's going to be boring. :bored:

[6chimes]

I wholeheartedly agree.

I'm sure there are many that do think those of us that work for other carriers are over paid, under worked and in need of a wake up call.

I'm sure lots of people care very little how much anyone else is paid as long as they get the bargain they wanted. That applies to everything, how many of you really care how much the poor sod in China is paid as long as you get the clothes for a fiver?

That's all fine and dandy until this business model is applied to more and more businesses, and possibly your line of work. There will be plenty of people available to fill virtually every job in the land and do it for less, as people lose their jobs and are prepared to take anything.

So whilst enjoying the low fares that are a result in no small part to low wages and aggressive management, do bear in mind if this model is brought to your industry, you won't be able to afford a flight for 50p.

6

[JayPee28bpr]

The big flaw in your argument about Ryanair's alledged poor conditions is that somehow higher fares would solve them. They wouldn't. People would simply fly less, resulting in fewer jobs and zero earnings for many of the current workforce. None of Ryanair's jobs existed before the advent of LoCo air travel, which is a pretty good indicator about what would happen to those jobs if they moved to a higher-fare model.

Ryanair (and others) have successfully exploited EU-driven deregulation of air travel. As a consequence it is now a mass transit system giving travel opportunities to vastly more people than was the case in the days of bilateral, high fare low frequency flights prior to deregualation. Ryanair have no problems filling all their jobs. They had no problem even in the boom years in Ireland when labour shortages were the norm here and those filling those jobs definitely had alternative job opportunities.

I'm no fan of Ryanair. I actively avoid using the airline, which is pretty challenging living in Ireland. However, I have great admiration for what the company has achieved, in particular the fact that it has driven the legacy airlines to match it on cost. And for short haul travel that really is almost the only element that matters. Even BA has now realised nobody gives a stuff about food on short flights.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Poor conditions?

My heart bleeds for you.

Maybe you want easyjet crew food and your flight pay taxed and NI'd?

Maybe you want to join BA and sit in the RHS for 14 or 15 years?

Join FR and if you work hard and are good enough you can have a command in 3 to 4 years: your BA colleagues sitting in the RHS for an extra 10+ years will NEVER make up the salary difference, and you will still be half a million sterling better off AFTER the cost of the TR.

PS. And you forget that in FR we have job security, unlike Virgin, Thomson, BA and those poor souls at bmi who don't know what way LH will jump.

[lowcostdolly]

ATS may not be the right forum for these questions/viewpoints but as the thread is here then here goes......

Am I right in thinking you are FR CC? If not then I'm probably not talking to the right person. However assuming that you are as your post indicates this.....

Firstly I would never fly FR. That's not because of any personal experience it's because I have "rescued" far to many pax who have been victim to the lack of customer service experience.....you know the ones MOL leaves stranded in the middle of nowhere when the plane is not in the right place for whatever reason he quotes. Those would be families with young children or traveling with elderly rels etc.....the vulnerable pax he so easily exploits.

Great for any other airline who does the so called "rescue" a.k.a basic customer service because we then pick up the pax for future business :ok:

However all credit to MOL.....30 mins of free advertising courtesy of our licence fee's.....remind me to cancel my direct debit due to cr*p TV :(

He also knows his target pax according to the BBC.....the teenagers who don't read the T&C's and just want to get from A to B with nothing more than a condom in the hand luggage. My Godson is one of them :ugh:

However back in the real world of loco aviation can I just ask a few questions of a fellow CC:

Is it true FR don't allow pax to bring food/drink on board? If so then it's quite easy to earn £320 commision on your £4.50 a throw sandwich.
Am I right in thinking that despite your post re how much you could earn for 30 hours you don't actually get a basic salary?
You pay for the privilidge of being trained to the FR (I think also ICAO) safety standards not to mention your uniform as well? Err didn't pay for my training as this is not an optional extra.Which brings me to safety......despite the articles on the CC forum re our so called glamorous images etc that is what we are here for. So are our Pilots.....in fact any company's Pilots or CC. I thourght the C4 dispatches programme in 2006 portrayed a much more realistic image of FR safety/security standards....they were caught on film!

Tell me ATS....do your CC still fall asleep on duty because they are so knackered by their roster pattens they wouldn't even notice a safety problem when it is right under their nose?

Are FR still "getting round" security STN with low cost escorted passes?

And then we come to the Pilots......you know the peeps you ridiculed in your post because you thourght they should do their briefing in 45 minutes?

I saw the Captain (admittedly an actor) not only say that this was an issue but also said that MOL was a bully on national TV.

So FR has no safety issues......well yes they haven't crashed on take off because of this but with all due respect ATS what would you know about the safety issues the Pilots may face at this critical time.....most ASR's are not run by the CC unless their input is needed.

Also according to you FR has no safety issues whatsoever......rubbish! Every airline has safety issues and the reporting of these is how we improve practice. Have you looked into whatever safety reporting system FR has recently? If so and there still are no issues whatsoever reported then the bullying described by the FR captain is working very well......Peeps scared to make reports means no safety issues......well done MOL :(:(:(

[DeeCee]

I wonder why they try to create such an unpleasant atmosphere? Cheap is ok and I can accept not getting any frills, but I have had such unpleasant experiences from this airline that their bad attitude can only be a matter of policy. I do not admire someone like this man, who is very much a type, who actually seems to propagate this horrible negative feeling. I have seen this arrogance before from high flying companies and they always fail eventually.

I avoid flying with them totally. I have paid more money to have a better travelling experience and enjoyed doing so.

[The Real Slim Shady]

You generate the unpleasant atmosphere.

Stick to the rules and you won't have a problem.

The unpleasantness starts when you try to bring 2 or 3 bags in to the cabin: it starts when you turn up and have a check in bag that weighs 34Kgs.

There is no unpleasantness on board unless you assault / harass / intimidate the cabin crew: and then it occurs in the same way every way airline responds.

[call100]

The documentary was just that, a documentary. Probably not aimed at the people who frequent forums like this.
I thought it just presented facts. MOL was made to look silly as his argument about unedited interviews was shot down.
As was said by someone else, It would have been better to do a documentary about the way LOCO airlines, not just FR, but mainly FR, have driven down wages and conditions throughout the industry.
Handling agents, Airports, and all associated business' are constantly being pushed toward the bottom line and CS goes out of the window.
Hat off to the CEO at MAN who insisted that they were not prepared to 'Prostitute' themselves to FR. Also Airbus, for insisting that they would not sell to O'Leary planes at any cost.
It's depressing that the public have been conditioned to accept the bottom of the barrel as the norm.
There is no doubt that FR have made a success of the business model. Nothing in that means I have to like them or fly with them. I don't, I won't.
The only other observation I would make is that the Daily Mail readers moaning about their license fee should really get a grip. However, that's another discussion altogether.:)

[racedo]

Also Airbus, for insisting that they would not sell to O'Leary planes at any cost.

That is not what he said, he never indicated he would not sell just he wants a price.

[kaimes]

So, a business makes that makes money for it's shareholders, employs lots of people (both directly and indirectly), provides a service that seems popular etc. etc. etc justifies 30 minutes of 'investigative' BBC airtime at licence payer expense.

Just watched the uncut version of the interview, MOL did him up like a kipper.

TTFN

[TALLOWAY]

Maybe you want easyjet crew food and your flight pay taxed and NI'd?


For Ryanair crews based in the UK and living here, presumably on a UK law based contract, why shouldn't you pay what the rest of us who work here pay ? If you're foreign based, then pay what that country's rules dictate, in accordance with the contract you have there.

We, as UK taxpayers, shouldn't subsidise other workers who are attempting to circumvent the system and results in forcing us ALL to pay more tax in the long run.


Back to the topic specifically. I have a dislike for O'Leary as a person and detest his attitude and people skills. I suspect I would never get sick of hitting him over the head with a baseball bat. But I respect that he has made a successful business. I also agree with him that there are no hidden charges with his airline. You may not like paying them, especially if you haven't exercised diligence when you make your booking, but you have a choice to book with someone else if you don't like it or the Ryanair terms and conditions.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Talloway,

Ask the easy crews about being taxed on their previously untaxed sector pay.
Based in the UK and meeting all your criteria!

[call100]

That is not what he said, he never indicated he would not sell just he wants a price.
I thought he said that Airbus was the superior product and worth the extra money. I didn't mean he wouldn't sell. I meant he wouldn't sell at anything but the right price. If I got that wrong I apologise.:hmm:

[racedo]

I thought he said that Airbus was the superior product and worth the extra money.

Course he would say that as have yet to meet a good salesman who wouldn't say that with their own product but they would use other means just as easily lowest cost per seat etc etc etc.

Ultimately he just setting out his stall with a negotiating position because lets face it he would love to be the guy who brought and sold 200plus Airbus to FR over a 10 year period.

[170to5]

The Real Slim Shady

Unexpected aggressive reply from what I was hoping was a pretty calmly put argument - even if you don't agree with it...

Personally I would far prefer to work for a different airline on less pay than to have to work for Ryanair. I haven't, however, met many people who can honestly say that if there were other jobs around they wouldn't leave flying for Ryanair a very long last. It's easy to have a rant at Ryanair pilots, and I have done so in the past, but if you would choose to be employed by Ryanair (or Brookfield's, whoever you are employed by) over many of the other UK carriers then you are not in a majority, form what I have gathered from knowing a not insignificant number of RYR flight crew. Personally, unless my airline gets 777's and starts flying to the Seychelles, I'm not going to say it's my perfect job. Then again who says it is (apart from the people who fly 777's to the Seychelles)?

My flight pay is taxed, and NI'd, by law however I have the security of a salary if I don't fly for some reason one month. But my job, like yours, is in no way secure. We don't work in a secure industry. From what I understand (and I may understand wrongly), the RYR freeze on UK bases that is on at the moment doesn't endear you position to security either. If you are a contract pilot, should anything happen, you could be replaced by someone else at the drop of a hat. If you are on a Ryanair contract, I believe that the Brookfields guys are actually on better T&C's (from talking to your company pilots) to you - so much for any reward for loyalty to your company. It's true that BA, bmi, Virgin and Thomson pilots aren't secure like most in most UK airlines, but they would most likely get some notice before they were told not to come to work again.

JayPee28bpr

Sorry, I agree with all your points, and I know that higher prices wouldn't necessarily lead to better T&C's, but my point was (in fact, has just become!) that the general public is leading the degradation of T&C's by expecting lower fares. As I said, you can't fly a 737 to Dublin for 6 quid a head, and while it wouldn't reverse it, it would certainly help to ease the squeeze! Your company loses money, they take it out on you...sure it sounds familiar to you too...

[sea oxen]

It's depressing that the public have been conditioned to accept the bottom of the barrel as the norm.

It's what's known (and has been for some time) as 'the invisible hand'.

To what extent does the price of a commodity play when you purchase something? Are you lucky enough to claim that it just doesn't matter? Or more to the point - what part does it play in the choices of most people?

It depends what you're buying, of course. For some, the destination is the journey, and the sullen-faced CC could pelt you with cow dung during a seven-hour delay and force you to listen to Peter Andre/Katie Price duets incessantly. But enough of BA :) [0]

When I was a starving student, I took the cheapest flights. What entitlement do I have to deny them the same option twenty years later? Can't poor people have fun too? If they are disappointed, e.g., getting stranded somewhere for 24 hours, that's fine - it happened to me as well. I feel sorry for impecunious families placed in this situation, and I'm grateful that my parents never took us anywhere without there being a Plan B.

So we turn to ethical considerations. Unless there is some sort of white-slaving operation going on, FR employees work for FR voluntarily - and, it seems, pay upfront for the privilege. Take a look at some of the politicians' interns who turned out nicely with a 1/1 from Oxbridge who earn the square root of naff all, or law graduates driving cabs. I don't pity people who take challenging and unrewarding jobs. It's the destination, not the journey.

I'd not fly FR purely because those days are behind me, and I like to have every thing done with a minimum of fuss. O'Leary has struck on a brilliant niche - the pimplies don't care because they'll be going on the lash, whereas fogies like I will have a staycation because the standards on the legacies are dropping.

SO
[0] yes, I was joking. What's an SLF thread without a go at BA?

[The Real Slim Shady]

Ryanair will take close on 550 jets from the manufacturer by 2016.

That gives you some leverage as a buyer.

If you were buying 550 taxis you sure as hell wouldn't pay list for them. :D

[Abusing_the_sky]

Oh dear lowcostdolly... may i respectfully suggest you re read your rather rubbish filled, journo like post (makes one wonder... are you a journo?)

But to answer your numerous questions.
Am I right in thinking you are FR CC?Indeed I am, and a PU at that. Been with FR for a very long time. How about you, haven't seem to have noticed which LoCo carrier you work for.

Firstly I would never fly FR. That's not because of any personal experience it's because I have "rescued" far to many pax who have been victim to the lack of customer service experience.....you know the ones MOL leaves stranded in the middle of nowhere when the plane is not in the right place for whatever reason he quotes. Those would be families with young children or traveling with elderly rels etc.....the vulnerable pax he so easily exploits.So you have no personal experience flying with FR yet you believe a 2nd, 3rd and so on party. How exactly have you rescued these people? Have they by any chance been refused boarding for reasons like they were too late at the gate or didn't have the right documentation and so on? Of course they're going to say it was never their fault, but FR's!
Should you be CC as you claim to be, you would know very well that airlines do not cancel flights lightly. And it's not that easy to just "send another" airplane, it takes time and careful analysis.
How exactly is MOL exploiting these people? Is he holding a gun to their heads and threaten if they don't purchase flights, he will put a bullet through their eyes? Tut tut, very poor journalism on your part dear.

Next.


Is it true FR don't allow pax to bring food/drink on board? If so then it's quite easy to earn £320 commision on your £4.50 a throw sandwich.
Am I right in thinking that despite your post re how much you could earn for 30 hours you don't actually get a basic salary?
You pay for the privilidge of being trained to the FR (I think also ICAO) safety standards not to mention your uniform as well? Err didn't pay for my training as this is not an optional extra.
That is utter BS. In fact it's a new one to me, never heard that one before. Please show me where you read/heard that (news, paper, link, whatever). Pax bring on board as much food and drink (if it's alcohol they can't drink it on board for safety reasons that have been discussed before) as they want. No one stops them to do so. They just need to organise it so it all fits in the cabin baggage (one piece of cabin baggage per person only). The way I earn my commission is very simple: I do 3 services instead of 2 when time permits, i also have an impeccable display on my duty free trolley, very pleasant to the eye, allowing the pax not only to see the items in the magazines but on the trolley too. I work hard you see, and that makes me money And FYI, the £4.50 may, or may not be affordable to pax, however i do not personally make the prices.
Wrong. Ever so wrong. I get a basic of £800 plus, on top of that commission and on top of that sector pay. How many hours i've done this week? Let me see. 10hrs duty on Sun, 6hrs duty yesterday, and will make another 6 hrs tomorrow (stand by for me today thank you very much). That's 22hrs in ONE WEEK.
Indeed i paid for my training, but it was such a long time ago i don't feel it at all (the money i paid that is). Thing is darling, i got half of the money back when i was a JU, after my first 6 months. The payment is a JU's allowance of £500. JU's still get it now they tell me. I never paid for my uniform. It was in the training costs. And guess what, i still get money back. We have a uniform allowance of £30/month. Good on you you haven't paid for your training, you very soon will :ok:Tell me ATS....do your CC still fall asleep on duty because they are so knackered by their roster pattens they wouldn't even notice a safety problem when it is right under their nose?
Please note that in 2006, the CC used to work on a 6 earlies, 2 off, 6 lates, 3 off pattern. It was a tough roster with every day flying as the company was in the process of recruiting and training, so we used to fly everyday, not even 1 stand by. My understanding was that some people simply couldn't cope with it (i don't know, i am not based in STN where the secret filming took place). Something escapes me i'm sure, but please do tell what happened, safety wise, when the programme was filmed.

Are FR still "getting round" security STN with low cost escorted passes?Again, no clue what STN's like, i'm not based there. I'd assume that no way in hell, not with the SS (that's security staff) targeting everyone wearing a blue uniform. Have you ever been through security staff channel in STN? I have, once. Never again as long as i live and breathe!

And then we come to the Pilots......you know the peeps you ridiculed in your post because you thourght they should do their briefing in 45 minutes?
First of all i haven't ridiculed anyone. What's a "peeps"? :}
I have never, EVER heard a pilot complaining they do not have time to brief in 45 mins (apart from the alleged FR pilot who was interviewed). FYI report time is -60, but the company allows 15mins to park your car, go through the magic security gate and to the crew room. I also do not know any pilot who comes on duty bang on -45. They do come in early, they have a chat, a bit of socializing, brief... You know, normal people who do normal things at the place of work.

what would you know about the safety issues the Pilots may face at this critical time.....most ASR's are not run by the CC unless their input is needed.I might actually take offence now.. I am well aware of the most critical phases of the flight (take off and landing as i'm SURE you know). I might not know what happens in the F/D (that's Flight Deck) but i am prepared for anything that could possibly happen. I never had a veer of the runway but i had a rejected take off. You'd be amazed to find i actually remembered the drill, and so did the JU's! Oh wow!:ugh:
And another bit of info for you dears. Our SAIR is run by both pilots and CC. And CC also participate and have their say to the LSRG. I'm sure you know what that means.

Also according to you FR has no safety issues whatsoever......rubbish! Every airline has safety issues and the reporting of these is how we improve practice. Have you looked into whatever safety reporting system FR has recently? If so and there still are no issues whatsoever reported then the bullying described by the FR captain is working very well......Peeps scared to make reports means no safety issues......well done MOL Safety issues... depends on the issue doesn't it? If i'm missing an infant seat belt, of course i'm not going to report it but write it in the CDLB for the engineers to know. Or simply call out an engineer to replace it.
I can assure you however that should a more serious safety related issue arise, it will be reported otherwise you're in trouble! It is our duty to report, isn't it? I for one do, don't fancy tea and biscuits but bring my own biscuits with the boss down the HQ in DUB.
Again, what is "peeps"? And who is scared to make reports? Did you know that if pilots do not report a safety issue, that means a huge breach of safety and not complying with the company requirements, they lose their jobs and possibly their license?

Now lowcostdolly, i've been around far too long to listen to whatever rumors, bad reviews, really poor journalism and so on (you did state that you never actually had any experience with FR, didn't you?). I don't have time for this. I suggest you do the same and don't jump on someone's throat before doing some research on where to cut first ;)

Now, next time you're delivering your "excellent" customer service, make sure you tell your pax about our 1 million free seats :D

I am told you wear orange... I like Orange CC, we always have a good laugh in the staff bus to/from the terminal. I am sad to hear about some of them losing their jobs. I'll always feel for fellow CC, no matter what color the uniform is.
Lowcostdolly, should you, god forbids, ever lose your job, you could always take up a career in journalism! :ok:

[The Real Slim Shady]

Personally I would far prefer to work for a different airline on less pay than to have to work for Ryanair

Bullsh1t. You will take the highest salary you can get.

he security of a salary if I don't fly for some reason one month.

And with FR you don't? Dislocated my knee last year: 4 months off, paid every month. No questions or arguments. Best company to work for.

the RYR freeze on UK bases that is on at the moment

There is no freeze.

Rubbish about FR, more rubbish and as Michael says you all have agendas.

We do it better and cheaper than the company you work for.

We are happier and have better terms and conditions and we save on union fees.

[OFSO]

If an SLF may comment - watched the TV program, blah blah blah, and "so what ?" Is there something about the words "low cost airline" that passengers don't understand when they buy their tickets ?

We make 20 - 30 flights with FR a year (traveling to look after elderly relatives elsewhere). We have no complaints with the quality of service offered compared with the price we pay - in fact, being retired, we couldn't afford to offer the personal support to our elderly relatives if Ryanair didn't exist.

You get what you pay for when you buy a Ryanair ticket: cheap, efficient, punctual travel, which is all we want on a two-hour flight. And with extremely well-trained cockpit crew.

Thanks, MoL.

[170to5]

1) Like many others, I actually mean it. There are plenty of others like me. That's why you'd probably find plenty of guys out of a job at the moment who won't be even skimming over RYR.

2) Therefore, you mustn't be a Brookfields contractor? If you were, I assume that unless you have insurance, you won't be getting any money. This, then, if it's the case, would answer whether you were on a contract or not. I would be surprised to find if in the same circumstances most other companies didn't do the same - RYR wouldn't be doing anything out of the ordinary - but fair play to them for being so understanding.

3) I was told that there was a freeze on base recruitment by an RYR employee. Presumably you guys must have agendas as well. 'Michael' is the worst of all for having agendas. Like all other Chief Execs, he wants pilots, along with everyone else, working minimum wage on max hours, and I'm pretty sure he's trying his hardest with the laws he must work with to make it happen. Not everyone is happy with their T&C's - like with every company - and while you save on union fees the new RYR guys are probably on some of the worst T&Cs in the industry, in Europe at least.

4) Your company is cheaper than pretty much everyone else, that is true. But to say you do things 'better' than everyone else opens up a debate that we could all make last for a long, long time. Feel free to go on arguing but I'm done - I'm not going to start a yelling match.

[Capetonian]

Ryanair 'exposé' backfires on Panorama -Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article6872560.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2)

Ryanair 'exposé' backfires on Panorama
The travelling public have come out overwhelming in Ryanair's favour after last night's BBC show

Ryanair’s pre-emptive attack on the BBC over its Why Hate Ryanair programme was futile. The broadcaster came out worst after last night's Panorama.

A free 30 minute prime time commercial for Ryanair.

O'Leary 1 - BBC 0

[Rusland 17]

O'Leary 1 - BBC 0Don't believe everything you read in Murdoch's newspapers. Barely a day goes by without them taking a swipe at the BBC for something.

[Abusing_the_sky]

Barely a day goes by without them taking a swipe at the BBC for something.

But then again the BBC deserves it? Apart from East Enders (yes, i'm sad, i know), why exactly do we pay the extortionate TV License fee to the BBC? Would someone care to enlighten me?

[fernytickles]

We are just watching it. Loved the part about the 16 year old who goes to Dublin for day trips, paying a max of 5 pounds and is at flight college now. Is he on here?

[Rusland 17]

why exactly do we pay the extortionate TV License fee to the BBC? Would someone care to enlighten me?There are countless other forums where you can debate the pros and cons of the TV Licence, or you could start a thread in Jet Blast...

[flyingfemme]

Once an aircraft leaves the ground, it runs for 'free' through the air bearing only it's own costs - not that of the air around it that supports it's very flight. Naturally, there are overflying costs and ATC costs but these are in a different league to owning and paying for every cubic inch of the air!

Eurocontrol charges are pretty steep, especially in/from the UK. They are also calculated using the square root of the aircraft weight; so Ryanair, using smaller, short-haul aircraft pay more per tonne than BA using a jumbo for long haul (for example). Not too different to the current rail situation here in the UK, where the track is owned centrally and the operating companies pay to use it.

I'm no fan of Ryanair - they are the Tesco of the airlines. Like Tesco, they have certain business practices that I do not like, so I prefer not to use them. In case of dire need I will - and know exactly what to expect. The consumer, these days, is mostly focussed on cost and MOL works this to perfection. You have to admire the man; he's a superb player.

[Nicholas49]

A couple of thoughts I had on the programme:

1) I felt quite sorry for the pilot who O'Leary put in front of the camera by the aircraft's front door (this was taken from an old programme). O'Leary was really quite patronising with his "I told them we don't pay our pilots!" speech. The pilot looked really embarrassed by the situation.

2) The reporting wasn't impartial. Vivian had clearly never stepped foot on a Ryanair flight (he must be used to travelling BA) and the way he 'analysed' the company (e.g. when we went to Stockholm) had a blatant anti-Ryanair bias. He then took the 'I fly six sectors a day' example from the captain he interviewed and ignored the fact that 4 or 2 sectors are equally possible! Poor journalism, BBC.

3) O'Leary comes across extremely well in the full interview on the BBC website. It's the journalist who doesn't appear to know what he's talking about.

[Sober Lark]

In essence Ryanair said they wanted to control the agenda and that the BBC were only interested in doing a 'hatchet job'. Ryanair seem to have been afflicted with paranoia as I saw no evidence of a hatchet job in the broadcast. Indeed why would the BBC have put 'Uncut: Ryanair's Michael O'Leary' inline prior to the broadcast if their intentions were being mischievous. Pretty fair of them.

[PAXboy]

flyingfemmeEurocontrol charges are pretty steep, especially in/from the UK. They are also calculated using the square root of the aircraft weight; so Ryanair, using smaller, short-haul aircraft pay more per tonne than BA using a jumbo for long haul (for example). Not too different to the current rail situation here in the UK, where the track is owned centrally and the operating companies pay to use it.Many thanks for that and the devil will be in the detail. One has read in this website, of alternative routes being used to lower such costs, even at the expense of more fuel.

I certainly agree with your view "You have to admire the man; he's a superb player." Yes, he has done to the whole of European aviation what Murdoch did to UK newspapers and TV. Incidentally, in another thread (the inevitable BA + BAA!) someone suggested that WW was grooming himself to take over from MoL. That is never going to happen because MoL will never step down. He will either be Chariman at the boardroom table until he dies of old age, or he will die in harness as CEO. His kind of driven man never step down and that is said with no anger or rancour. The man is brilliant at what he does and I try not to use his services.

[deltahotel]

Blimey - it is all about Marmite isn't it? Would I choose to fly for FR? No - the best part of freight is no passengers! Do I use FR as pax? Absolutely. I use the amazing power of the internet to fully research the options - and indeed split infinitives - (inc all the LoCos and 'full fare' carriers) and choose the one which gives the best mix of:

Departure airfield - travel/parking/hassle
Dest - as above
Cost - final total everything paid for cost
Timings
Baggage allowance - sometimes need, sometimes don't

eg. for skiing, much prefer FR's Lyon (Grenoble) - closer to the resorts, much quicker to/from car park, luggage delivery quicker

ATS - like yr posts. Often take my own (well, probably pret) sandwich on. Quite capable of deciding whether to spend my money on board.

Pilot perspective - 45 mins not unusual report time. Personally tend to arrive a bit early - coffee/natter with ops n crewing etc. My choice.

Bottom line - bet M O'L loved the prog!!

DH

[Meikleour]

Simple question.

Anyone can appreciate why people will take advantage of very cheap tickets of FR but can someone explain why, when the company publishes its average fare taken per passenger, it is obvious that one h*ll of a lot of passengers must be paying much higher fares to fly with FR? This is the true mystery to me which was never addressed.
Why would anyone pay large sums of money to fly on FR when equivalent fares are available from most airlines now? Is the public that gullible to be snared in by the headline `fare` versus the total paid after charges?

[Sober Lark]

I've only flown with FR twice. Once I paid €100 (including everything)return for a family of 5 (five) DUB - LGW. The chap next to me paid €450 for his ticket (for one person). I thanked him for subsidising my trip.

[call100]

The one thing I think FR excel at is publicity.
The majority of the British public probably check out their site first as it's name sticks, closely followed by Easy (because of the TV programme 'Airline'). I can't remember the last time I saw anything that sticks from the likes of FlyBe or anyone else.
As for the documentary...I suspect only people on here were thinking it would be totally anti FR. Now some are disappointed it was just presenting a documentary which left the viewer to make up their own mind. Even publicising the fact that they had put the unedited interview with O'Leary.
Good luck to the FR fans and those who enjoy working for them........At the end of the day it's a personal choice..(Maybe?):)

[top jock]

Paxboy.

When you take off you are nailed with Euro Control Fees. I have been told that Ryanair pay more on Euro Control Fees then they do on fuel. Trust me it is not free.

[lowcostdolly]

Abusing the sky ..... Thank you so much for the very constructive reply that you didn't have time for apparently :rolleyes:

Of course you are entitled to your condescending personal opinion of me clearly demonstrated by the wording of your post but you have asked me to clarify some safety info. If you truly are interested in the answers then I suggest you PM me. I think you will find I am just as clued up on aviation safety/safety reporting procedures as you and yes I do know what all your abbreviations stand for....funny that but as CC and "a PU at that" I would be. I too have been round for a long time as well hence....

I'm not interested in a slanging match on a public forum just because you might not like/agree with me or it appears do you like being questioned in any way. I didn't intend to start one but I will finish it. If you wish to continue our discussion then please do PM me.

Meanwhile back to the thread......Why hate ryanair? It appears lots of people do a million free seats or not. I wonder if MOL will be waiving the taxes, booking fees, potential hold fees, the wheelchair fees,euro control fees etc to go with the "free" seats? :ooh:mm.

[10W]

I wonder if MOL will be waiving the taxes, booking fees, potential hold fees, the wheelchair fees,euro control fees etc to go with the "free" seats?

MOL can't waive Eurocontrol fees. It's a service he requires, and therefore has to pay the supplier for.

[10W]

Eurocontrol charges are pretty steep, especially in/from the UK. They are also calculated using the square root of the aircraft weight; so Ryanair, using smaller, short-haul aircraft pay more per tonne than BA using a jumbo for long haul (for example).

Almost right, you have to divide the weight by 50 first though and then square root it.

This would give a weight factor of 1.18 for a 737-800 and a factor of 2.81 for a 747-400.

The full charging formula can be found here:

Eurocontrol Charge calculation (http://www.eurocontrol.int/crco/public/standard_page/faq_how_calculate_charge.html)

[A2QFI]

A spin off from the documentary and relevant to costs, MO'L mentioned a figure of 67 million passengers and another source says that he has 6500 staff. This works out to 1 employee for every 10307 passengers flown; does any other airline get close to this emloyee/passenger ratio and if so which one?

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Sort of stuff you find in their annual reports.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/about/invest/docs/2009/Annual_report_2009_web.pdf

Passengers per employee

FR 9195
BA 736
LH 652
AF 691

Right next to the average pay per employee :)

Of course this could be altered by the inclusion of their contractor "employees".

[Sober Lark]

Not a like for like comparison because the airlines mentioned operate long haul, Ryanair does not.

Question. If Aer Lingus did not have long haul, how many passengers per employee would they have?

[Scumbag O'Riley]

absolutely. revenue or profit per employee might be more interesting. Easy to work out, cannot be bothered though, doesn't actually interest me at all.

Now, my biggest complaint about FR is why they cannot put those 1.1million free flights on at times people with jobs can use them without taking holiday :)

[BOAC4ME]

Having seen the reports re Mr O'Leary being 'irked' by the programme I was expecting something much more hard-hitting, as has been commented already it really was a lazy uninspired piece of journalism.
I would have been much more interested in the exploration of Ryanair's impact on the industry as apposed to the pax, which we know already. As the MD of MAG said "We refuse to prostitute ourselves to Ryanair, in order to trash the marketplace", which is of course quite right. They have been doing it for years, and that to me is a more interesting POV to explore, as apposed to "Pax turns up at airport and gets charged excess shocker!!!!".

[Seat 59A]

So I started wondering why there is so much bile in this thread about Ryanair. What is it that evokes such strong feelings, both for and against? I’ve only used them once and, I must say, I found that it delivered exactly what it said on the tin – a very cheap flight to Norway. Ok, the seats were hard, the food expensive and inedible, the check-in rules strict, and the flight times ungodly, but what the hell, myself and my family got there and back for nearly nothing.
Anyway, I watched the Panorama programme, and the uncut interview with Michael O’Leary, and I also spent an hour on the Ryanair website, booking a few dummy fares and checking out the terms and conditions.
I truly don’t see what the controversy is. As far as I can see, the charges are very clearly displayed, easy to understand, and you have the option to stop and go elsewhere at any point up until payment. The fact is that Mr O’Leary has developed a brilliant business model which enables you, as long as you follow the rules, to fly very, very inexpensively. True, it requires a rethink of attitudes, but what is so wrong about taking the cost of meal service out of the ticket and making those who want it pay separately. That has been the norm on the train for years (and British Rail prices were plenty high enough), but I haven’t noticed people complaining. What is wrong about stripping out all the other costs out of the ticket as well? It’s true that Ryanair baggage charges are skyhigh – so don’t carry baggage, or look for a traditional carrier when you have bags to transport. It’s true also that both Ryanair and Easyjet apply loading models which increase the price of tickets the closer the date of travel. That’s actually why I don’t use them more. I can rarely plan ahead, and usually find BMI or BA more , or equally, competitive on price at short notice. There’s also a change fee of between 25 and 100 quid. That’s fine. At 10 quid I can throw away the ticket and buy another one! I am sure that if Mr O’Leary starts to lose business as a result of being relatively unattractive to business travellers, he will find a way to attract me by undercutting his rivals. Right now, I am not his market, which is ok by me. On the other hand, last night I found a fare to Bergerac, booking a month ahead, for 10 quid. No strings, no frills. So, what is the problem?
In fact, the only “unfair” (but definitely not hidden) charges I could find were the exorbitant credit card fee of 5 quid – c’mon, it doesn’t cost that much and realistically there is no other way to pay – and the online check-in fee of 5 quid. The former is money-grabbing (actually it is designed to incentivize you to get a Ryanair credit card, which I neither want nor need) whilst the latter seems to be to be poor marketing. I appreciate that it is waived on some routes, but if you are going to eliminate physical check-in, it does seem a bit unfair to add a charge for something that cannot be done any other way. IMHO, would have been smarter to apply an across the board increase of one or two pounds on fares without telling anyone. Nobody would have noticed and Mr O’Leary would have been even better placed to assume the moral high ground over BA with its nasty, ill-timed and very much “hidden” seat selection charges, changes to long-standing transatlantic baggage rules and other charges. Not to mention things like hidden $2 headset charges on other airlines, etc. etc.
No, I’m sorry, I’ve read all the posts, and checked the facts and I’m afraid my vote goes to O’Leary over Willie Walsh any day. And I am a BA gold card holder, by the way, so it’s not as if I don’t fly much. Incidentally, I probably won’t be a gold card holder next year, because I have spent most of this year eschewing the airmiles in favour of a rigorously competitive approach to ticket pricing and as a result have a much extended travel budget and a very happy CFO. Who’s the mug? Not Mr Michael O’Leary, that’s for sure!!

[racedo]

absolutely. revenue or profit per employee might be more interesting. Easy to work out, cannot be bothered though, doesn't actually interest me at all.


Passengers carried per aircraft is a good one as while the arguement that LH would suffer its also true that LH operates on a 24 hr basis.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Earnings per share is the only metric that really matters, and on that one FR would appear to win hands down.

[racedo]

Earnings per share is the only metric that really matters, and on that one FR would appear to win hands down.

Thats is fiddleable by buying back your own shares over a number of years which Ryanair has been doing, it means the EPS needs to be constantly readjusted to take account of that.

Success can be defined many ways, almost like a beautiful woman, often difficult to describe to someone else but you know it when you see it in front of you.

[JayPee28bpr]

[EPS] is fiddleable by buying back your own shares


I don't think "fiddleable" is quite how I'd describe it! Share buybacks are a legitimate way of adjusting capital to maintain it at the level required. There's also an element of tax planning involved in this too. This kind of capital/treasury management is hardly unique to Ryanair. Also, if you take it to the very extreme, ie buying back all shares, then there is no business: it has been liquidated. I think you'll find in Ryanair's case that retained profits far exceed share buybacks, so that total capital employed has risen substantially over any period you choose to consider. At a guess, I'd suspect that Ryanair has used share buy backs as quasi-dividends.

I do agree, though, that:


Success can be defined many ways


And I'd go further and say that the pre-eminent metrics change due to wider market circumstances. For instance, until the recent stabilisation in the global economy, virtually all airlines were being judged on their rate of "cash burn" and not much else, ie how fast their piles of cash and available credit were depleting in the face of falling passenger numbers/fares. Ryanair went into the crisis with the highest cash balances of any airline in Europe, and they have continued to add to their cash pile even as all the legacy airlines have been burning through theirs and tapping investors via bond issues etc (eg BA, AF/KLM). The LoCos have won the "cash protection" battle quite convincingly over the last 12 months.

I think the other key metric by which to judge virtually any company is its operating margin, basically how much of turnover ends up as profit rather than leaking away as costs. On this measure Ryanair is the leading airline. It means that they can go into any price war confident that they can out last the opposition. It's how they've built their business over the last 20 years, ie simply by having the lowest cost structure in the industry and setting fares accordingly.

[racedo]

Share buybacks are a legitimate way of adjusting capital to maintain it at the level required.

And a good way of bolstering share price as you remove some of the freely available traded shares which makes those left a little bit more valuable.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Thats is fiddleable (eps) It's probably the least fiddleable of the lot. Share buybacks are a sign that the directors of a company are not only in it for themselves, they also have their shareholders' interests in their mind. Not that common in publically quoted companies.

[JayPee28bpr]

racedo,

The share price will only rise if the capital returned is truly surplus to requirements. Remember that when a company buys back shares, its assets (ie that which generates the profits) also fall. If the return on assets/return on equity falls in the same proportion as the shares bought back, then EPS will remain the same, eg if £100 of assets represented by 100 shares generates £10 profit (10%RoA/RoE), then EPS is 10p. If 10 shares are bought back for £10 and RoA remains at 10%, then post-buy back assets will be £90, shares in issue 90, profits £9 (ie 10% of £90), and EPS remains at 10p (£9 profit divided by 90 shares).

[racedo]

jaypee

Unfortunately you ignore things like benefit or not of holding the additional cash i.e. 0 % interest in the bank.

Buying back shares has no impact on profits so your profit will remain the same and your return % is that much better.

[racedo]

It's probably the least fiddleable of the lot. Share buybacks are a sign that the directors of a company are not only in it for themselves, they also have their shareholders' interests in their mind. Not that common in publically quoted companies.

Depends as buying back shares tends to increase share price. If management set with getting share price to a certain price for their options to kick it then then may take that option.

Not suggesting its anything like the case with FR but never rule out anything with anybody and never get shocked.

[PAXboy]

top jockWhen you take off you are nailed with Euro Control Fees. I have been told that Ryanair pay more on Euro Control Fees then they do on fuel. Trust me it is not free.Sure, I can understand that but, I guess, one advantage is that the costs are predictable. For the railways, when a truck bumps into one of their bridges - all traffic is stopped until an inspection is made. If a repair has to be done, then you have to pay human beings at overtime rates and pay for busses etc. Lastly, if there is a break down or incident, it can close the railroad to all traffic for an hour or a week. If you meet 'bad' air, then you can reroute until it has blown over.

I am not suggesting that this is a full comparison but is one of the reasons that rail can be more expensive. Of course, since the railways adopted the airline's yield management, they have been able to make more money.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

I have been told that Ryanair pay more on Euro Control Fees then they do on fuel.you were told wrong, this again is info you would hope to find in their annual report. From memory the figure is around E300 million a year. Hard to believe so much, but fuel is several times larger, over a billion. Again from memory, navigation fee costs were similar to staffing costs.

[flyingfemme]

Almost right, you have to divide the weight by 50 first though and then square root it.

I know the formula! It's the square rooting bit that gives rise to the inequity of charging; the division makes no difference to the eventual outcome.

It's why a Kingair (at 5.7T) pays around a third as much as MOL's 59T Boeing and an eighth as much as Willie's Boeing. Not just MOL that fiddles the figures. :=

[M100S2]

How does the supposed ban on Ryanair supplying drinking water to their crew stack up with the basic provisions of The Workplace Health, Safety and Welfare Regulations 1992 Regulation 22?

HSE Frequently Asked Questions - Does my employer have to pr... (http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/water.htm)

"An adequate supply of wholesome drinking water shall be provided for all persons at work in the workplace."

[racedo]

"An adequate supply of wholesome drinking water shall be provided for all persons at work in the workplace."

Believe previous policy was to supply bottled water.

There is a water supply within aircraft.

[Pax Vobiscum]

There is a water supply within aircraft.
Yes, but is it "wholesome"? :eek: