Over-qualified for Pilot Training?!

[Keeley]

Hi everyone,

This is a bit of an odd query, so please bare with me.

I'm a 24 year old Aeronautical Engineer that has just graduated from University. For a long time I have wanted to pursue a career as a commercial pilot, with a dream of one day flying business jets. I'm aware that a degree was never needed to follow this career path, but back in the day when I started my degree I felt it was a good idea to have a back up in the event that I was not successful with the flight training or securing a job as a pilot at a later stage.

Roll on 5 years and I am still unable to pursue a career as a pilot because I simply cannot obtain the finances (no security for a loan, recession etc). I had planned to apply for the NetJets Cadet Scheme but of course that is currently closed due to the recession. The job prospects as an Engineer are pretty dire currently as well and so I have chosen to complete a Ph.D in the hope that in 3-4 years time the aviation industry will hopefully be in a better shape and I will have had time to save up some of the necessary funds.

I appreciate that by then I am likely to be over-qualified for the purposes of being accepted on an integrated training course (edit: In terms of exceeding course entry requirements, NOT over-qualified to be a pilot and fly the actual plane :ugh:), so my question is this.....is having a degree and a Ph.D likely to place me at a distinct disadvantage if I apply for training post-PhD? i.e. will they laugh in my face and wonder why it has taken me so long to start training?

Secondly, I will be approaching 28 years old when I apply. Is this too old?

Many thanks in advance

Keeley

[Deep_stall]

In my opinion an airline pilot could only ever be over qualified if they were a 747 AND A380 AND ex Concorde test pilot with 50,000 hours. The simple face that you have a degree in the aviation field does not qualify you in any way to fly an aircraft. Sorry to sound brutally harsh but, in my opinion, any pilot that thinks they are over qualified for the job is dangerous.

I did my training with a guy who used to work in aerodynamics and it's fair to say that he had to unlearn a fair bit for the JAR exams and yes he nailed PoF and performance with 100% (but then so did people who had come straight out of A-Levels) he struggled with the raw handling skills in the IR phase and also in the multi crew conversion stage.

In terms of you starting "late" I think you can justify that easily enough at an interview, you have good reasons for not jumping straight into training right now - and it will certainly look good on you if you are doing something worthwhile during that time, like studying for a PHD.

[Keeley]

Deep_stall, thanks for your reply.

I just want to clarify that I never meant to imply that I thought I was over-qualified to be a pilot (i.e. fly the aircraft). I simply meant I would be considered over-qualified in so far as I would exceed the educational requirements necessary to obtain a place on the training course.

I am by no means dangerous for the job or believing that a degree in Engineering means I can automatically fly an aircraft well.

Thanks
Keeley

[pilotho]

i've always found it odd that there is such a term as "over qualified", after all in school, they have always told us to have as many qualifications as possible. i really don't know why you worry about having too many qualifications though, everyone comes from different backgrounds and would be trained the same way to have the same end result.

i didn't know it takes 4 years for a phd by the way. one thing though, would you be called dr or capt in the future if you had a phd as well?

[Keeley]

I suppose my concern isn't so much that I'm "too educated" (I use that term with caution :p), more that to the person reading my application it may look like I am not as committed as say someone else who is persuing the career straight from school (because it looks like it has taken me a degree and a PhD to "make up my mind", even though I know this isn't in fact the case).

My PhD is funded for 3.5 years. I guestimated 4 years because it's actually quite rare to complete a PhD in the time allocated, which I have to admit is worrying! With regards to using Dr. or Capt....technically you aren't really allowed to refer to yourself as Dr. outside of the academic field, so it would be written as "Name, PhD". Therefore, I'd be called Capt. :p

[Whirlygig]

Just as long as you can show your GCSE and A levels certificates, you'll be fine - the PhD will be mostly irrelevant to the schools. And I'm not being entirely facetious :}

Cheers

Whirls

[Genghis the Engineer]

You get a lot out of a PhD, or at-least I did out of mine - in particular analytical, research and writing skills. Best of luck.

As for flying training - well integrated course providers don't really care so long as you are up to the course, and of-course can pay the fees. So, I doubt that will matter.

And at the end, what are you qualified to do? - well you can either be an engineering postdoc, or you can be a junior professional pilot. Both interesting and worthwhile jobs, also both jobs that are quite difficult to get. But, you've got double the odds of being employable.

And after that? Well, if you climb the pilot career ladder and start to look at technical or management roles, the skills learned in your PhD will do you a lot of favours. Or if you go back into academe, you'll rapidly discover that there are lamentably few aerospace academics who really have a clue about aircraft operations - so you'd have a big advantage there too.

So, a slow and expensive route in - but a route into some really quite exciting opportunities for you. Plus there are a few jobs out there (and generally not enough people to fill them) for people with a combination of professional flying, and academic/aeronautical qualifications: at places like NTPS, ETPS, NFLC, BFSL....

One thought however; you'll almost certainly stand out as a pretty exceptional candidate anyhow, and I doubt that all that extra money spent on Integrated will really add much. If I were you, I'd save a few tens of thousands of pounds and go modular.

G

[P1-FTE]

HI,
I’d agree with Genghis the Engineer. I've recently completed the ATPL studies, CPL and IR via modular route while working as an Aerospace Engineer. Having technical knowledge has helped ( also didn't help when I was told I was thinking too much like an engineer at one point doing the ground exams prep!).

Likewise the flying experiences both PPL and CPL have helped in the day to day engineering job, especially if you do have interactions with aircrew. They tend not to look down on you so much as the other engineers who do not have flying experience!!

I could not start the "ATPL flying" till I was 31 and could only manage to do it via a modualr route due to money and work commitments, I think, for me it might have been easier to give up the job and concentrate full time, but I personally feel better knowing that I held down a job and completed the training.

What ever your plans, airline pilot, Engineer, ETPS etc its a solid foot hold you will have in "both worlds" and, as like the situation in the world now you will have more than one option to consider.

hope this helps,

[lovezzin]

Keeley, personally speaking, would it not be better to get a job in the meantime rather than a Phd?

Just assuming here, but im guessing you did MEng and you gained a 2.1 or above (to be offered a Phd place) so it wont be difficult to find one!(although to be fair, as you know, all grad programmes open now wont be starting till next summer). Engineering propspects are pretty dire for the sort of personality that is usually associated with Engineering Graduates (i.e sit back and take what comes, rather odd folk usually behind the scenes). However, if you *shine* the world is your oyster and you could easily save 60k between now and 4 years time based on my own experience of a graduate career so far...!!!

Only do your phd if you want to become a lecturer. Phd's are something you should do later in life to benefit your career (within Engineering industry)...

[BoeingMEL]

I'm 100% with Lovzzin on this... Keeley, if you commit the next 4 years on your PhD and then take 18-24 months getting your fATPL.... you could well miss the bus!
Your existing degree is helpful and positive but not essential... how much better will your recruitment chances be with a PhD? (Respectfully I'd say none!)

During the next 12 months alone you could be working and paying for your PPL, multi, night rating and (perhaps) IMC ratings. That would place you much higher on your aviaton career ladder than you will be in 4 years time with empty pockets and more debt!

Good luck anyway bm :ok:

[Wannabe Mike]

Only do your phd if you want to become a lecturer and join the ranks of Watson and Render!! Phd's are something you should do later in life to benefit your career (within Engineering industry)...

Lovezzin,

What a load of old tripe that statement is. I was 24 when I graduated with my Ph. D. and I work in nuclear engineering, although my Ph. D. is not engineering based. You don't do a Ph. D. just to become a lecturer- to obtain a number of jobs in the engineering sector a Ph. D. is a pre-requiste.

My own personal experience is that doing a Ph. D. has worked wonders for my career prospects (non-pilot), even this early on in my working life.

A Ph. D. is almost certainly worthless when it comes to pilot training and obtaining a job as a professional pilot, however, as others have said before me, it demonstrates that a candidate is highly motivated. I can certainly relate to what Genghis has said about the skills that a Ph. D. gives you.

I'd say if you really want to do a Ph. D. then go for it, it can't harm your prospects as a pilot, however it will most likely do little to enhance them either.

One thing people haven't mentioned so far- make sure you are interested in the subject matter you are going to research. If my Ph. D. experience is anything to go by then there will be times when you will be asking yourself why you started the damn thing in the first place- especially after 1.5 years with no results! A keen inetest will make the hard times all the more easy to bare.

Another tip- try and pick an area that is a "hot topic" in industry. I purposely chose to study my area becasue I knew a skills gap existed and that there was a high demand for specialist knowledge. It will certainly help pay for all of those expensive flying lessons!

Good luck with whatever you decide. :ok:

[lovezzin]

Im assuming you did a Bachelor and graduated at 21 years old. You did you Phd in 3.5 years allowing you to graduate at 24.5 years, thats pretty damn good going chap!! When I was referring to Engineering, my appologies, I meant perhaps more mechanical-based (such as Aeronautical Engineering is a branch of). I just meant, in my company (of 10,000+ employees) it seems that those holding a Phd seem to have not reaped anymore reward than those without.

So I too agree with Genghis, forget the Phd, get a job and earn the bucks to pay for it!! although saying that, your phd funding per year probably equates to the after tax salary of a grad engineer...decisions, decisions. Good luck Keeley!

[Wannabe Mike]

"wannabe Mike", stop poking your chest out young man!!!

Ha Ha! I like it Lovezzin. :)

That's right I graduated at 21 with a BSc and it then took me exactly 3 years to complete my Ph. D.

I agree with you Lovezzin- for more main stream engineering disciplines then a Ph. D. can seem like a bit of waste of time and may set you back in climbing the "greasy pole". My apologies if I came across a little strong- I just wanted to point out that it's not always the case that a research degree only benefits you later in life.

It will almost undoubtly set you you back (Keeley) in your plans to become a pilot in the long term and I agree with what Boeing MEL has said. If I had started pilot training after my first degree then I would have finished just before the downturn and at the crest of the recruitment of low houred pilots.

Once you're in with the Ph. D. for all intents and purposes you are in, and as Boeing MEL and others have correctly pointed out you could well miss the boat.

It's not a decision to be taken lightly- it could well set you back in your pilot ambitions, or it could provide you with a well paid job with which to fund your training. Nobody knows what the future holds and it is therefore almost impossible to predict when times for the recruitment of low houred fATPL holders will be good again.

All the best.

[smith]

If you do get your PhD just don't put it on your OXford/Jerez application form thus avoiding the situation of them sneering at you for being overqualified. I don't think they really care in your employment history so the three year hole in your CV will be fine.

Obviously when you apply to British Airways mention it but Ryanair don't need to know.

I have seen all sorts of people training for ATPL eg medical doctors, dentists, pharmacists, lawyers, accountants, lorry drivers etc.

I don't think jerez/oxford will give a to$$ as long as you have above the minimum required and pass the aptitude test.

[pilotho]

Obviously when you apply to British Airways mention it but Ryanair don't need to know.

Just out of interest. Why do you think BA would like to know whereas Ryanair doesn't want to know?

[portsharbourflyer]

Lozzin is correct, in aerospace you will find a PHd is generally too specialised to be any use in industry (I am fully aware that PHds have provided plenty of useful research which has uses) but for the individual it rarely is a financially beneficial experience.

My advice, although I understand it is difficult to find work at the moment is with 3 to 5 years experience you will able to start contracting. If you wish to pursue pilot training you should be looking at becoming a contractor at the earlist possible opportunity. To contract you need experience not a PHd.

Quite often as stated PHd holders will only start out on the same salary as any other graduate.

Contracting is the only way you will earn any decent money in Engineering; also you will find the flexibility of contracting can fit in really well with modular flight training. Another thing to consider is when you are applying for contract positions is no one is bothered when you hold a fATPL (where as for permanent roles they are always concerned you will leave for a flying job at some point).


If you do need to kill some time while waiting for a job, at the moment I would recommend a shorter post graduate course (ie: Post Graduate certificate or MSc). I suppose if you do hold a MEng , a MSc could be seen as abit of a sideways step ( or almost redundant). But at this moment a Post grad course concentrating on composites analysis could give you a very good chance of finding employment. Yes you could do a PHd based on composites but by the time you have done that the industry may have realised that Mitsubishi are right and the composite boom will be over.

As for your age, not an issue I have known plenty of people who have been in their early forties when they have gained their first commercial job.

[spinnaker]

Keeley,

I don't think a Ph.D places you at a disadvantage, but rather a more interesting position. Age is not an issue for you, it will take some time for the markets to come back engineering wise, or on the flight deck.

What I would be doing, is thinking about how you see your career path panning out. In all honesty, I feel you should look beyond the flight deck and include management in your strategic plan. You can fire off a few letters to BA, Virgin and a few other largish companies and ask them what advice and career paths they may have for someone with your potential. Include the CAA in your circular. Make it plain you are not applying right now for a position, but taking advantage of the current climate and asking for opinion, to place yourself in the strongest position possible for when times are better and your education complete.

In many ways, you are in an enviable position. You have age on your side, a worthwhile education, and it seems to me, a head on your shoulders. Don't forget to use it.

Hope that helps, good luck.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

2 GCSE grade D's / A Ph.D - aviation doesn't care.

Checklist:
--------------


Do you have a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL and MCC?

Do you have a Type Rating on our aircraft?

Are you willing to work under a scheme which pays you below market rate or as a contractor?

Are you willing to work wherever we tell you to work?

Can you spend a year or so in our pool until we're ready for you and still fulfil the above requirements?



Congratulations - we'll put you on our list of applicants.

--------------------------------


At no point will your GCSE's, your Aptitude, your knowledge of current affaires, your likeability, sense of humour, suit choice, preferred sunglasses, hair length or Ph.D ever EVER be considered a factor.

The world has changed.

Lots of people haven't noticed yet.



WWW

[TheBeak]

And what WWW has said hits the nail on the head. I know military pilots who now can not get a job as a commercial pilot, I know doctors (medicinal) with an fATPL who can not get a job, I know ex sponsored pilots (myself being one of them) who can not get a job. I know a snot nosed, illeterate, unimpressive little 24 year old who has thick, over indulgent, incredibly rich parents willing to pay ANOTHER £33000 for them and they have a job, even though they only managed to pass GCSE maths the second time with a C and managed to get a single E in their A levels in D and T.

We both wanted to be pilots the whole way through school. His parents and he openly admitted that the methods and routes I was taking were not open to him because he wasn't 'bright' or natural at flying. I am not natural to flying however either. But he is now flying fare paying passengers on flights.

Absurd.

Bitter? Yes I am. Only the strong should survive. I was brought up with the belief that knowledge is power. Now money is the only power. Nature will run it's course, crashes will happen, everything will end how it begun, in a big bang. Why? Because Knowledge should be power.

[Keeley]

Thanks everyone for your responses to my post. It's been interesting reading varying points of view with regards to my "problem".

As many of you identified, completing a Ph.D will in no way shape or form increase my chances of being accepted by a flying school or obtaining a job as a pilot in the future. I'm fully aware of this and this did not contribute towards my decision to do a Ph.D. Rather, my Ph.D would play the same role as a job in industry; provide me with some much needed cash and allow me to do something potentially useful with my time whilst the aviation industry recovers (hopefully). I'm happy that many of you think my Ph.D will not work against me.

Thanks to those who suggested that I look into obtaining my pilots licence following the modular route. I've got to admit that I hadn't considered this option. P1-FTE, I'm wondering if you could give me a bit more information about your experiences with following the modular route whilst holding down a job in the aerospace industry (I'm assuming this job was full-time)? How long did it take you to complete the training, starting right from the beginning?

I am seriously considering this option now, so long as I can sucessfully complete my training in close to 4 years time. It will be cheaper and doesn't require that I pay a massive sum up front. I can use the money I obtain from completing my Ph.D to complete my training at my own pace, and am able to stop at any point I wish to should circumstances dictate that I need to. Should I need some financial assistance, it is more favourable to take out a considerably smaller loan that that required for integrated training. As a few of you identified, if I waited four years and then did an integrated course taking 18-24 months, I could well miss out. My only concerns are that I will be taking on too much alongside my Ph.D and potentially it could take me just as long as if I'd done my Ph.D and then done the integrated course.

Another recurring theme in your responses was the suggestion that I consider completing a job in industry over the next few years as opposed to a Ph.D. Had I not been reminded about the modular route then I probably would have agreed with you. However, I feel the Ph.D is most suited, especially if I follow the modular route. This is for three reasons:

1) My working hours for my Ph.D are far more flexible than in industry (assuming I wasn't a contractor). This will allow far more flexibility in terms of fitting in training and hour building. Should I need to take an afternoon or morning off, I can make up for it by working in the evenings. In turn, this does not restrict me to just weekends to complete my training.

2) By the time you account for tax and other additional expenses not incurred by Ph.D students, my salary equates to that of a graduate in engineering. Therefore, money wise, I stand to gain nothing by obtaining a job in industry in the next few years.

3) Finally, many of you said, and quite rightly, that in many instances a Ph.D does nothing or very little to improve recruitment chances in industry. However, with regards to the Ph.D I am doing it is part-sponsored by an industrial partner (BAE Systems). Also, the topic my research covers would be considered a "hot topic" in industry currently. I have reason to believe that this *might* increase my recruitment chances, although nothing is a given.

It's taken me a good few days to respond to this thread because I have been thinking about what everyone has said. My current thinking is stick with the Ph.D and at the same time complete my modular training. I'm interested to hear on time-scales from those who have completed training using this route, and whether you guys think it's achievable. I'd be starting right from the beginning (not had the money to complete PPL until now).

Sorry for the length of the post, and any more advice is appreciated.

Keeley

[flash8]

BA from Oxford, B.Sc. Liverpool, M.Sc. Edinburgh.

FO B737.

Never considered myself overqualified - and am always suspicious of those that think they are.

[SkyCamMK]

Do not advise starting a post inviting members to get naked with you.

Are you really so highly qualified that you think we are all going to stroke your ego and advise you how brilliant you are avoiding real work.

IMHO you should learn to spell forgret the PhD and if you want to fly then fly!

Sorry, but had to bite eventually, not a formal member of the Spelling Police!

Cheers
Btw my BSc(Hons), MBA were of nearly zero value re my ATPL studies.

I only fly small aircraft but do so happily for little financial reward - Perhaps you need to complete get an assertiveness and decision making course?

For some people academic study is an autotelic activity perhaps you are one of those persons?

[Wannabe Mike]

Keeley,

I wouldn't under estimate the number of hours per week you will spend completing your Ph. D. I worked longer hours during my Ph. D. than I do now in my current job. I would suggest to you that it would be almost impossible to complete your Ph. D. whilst at the same time gaining your fATPL through the modular route.

If I were you I would aim to complete your PPL and do some hour building. Remember that a Ph. D. offers you the flexibility to write up after one year and gain an M. Phil. If it really isn't for you and you feel like you should have started pilot training full time then the M. Phil. option is always available, no matter which year of your Ph. D. you are in.

You made a comment about earning the same as an engineering graduate. That is true to some degree, however, it is also important to remember that once you are in industry/full time employment you have career progression to think about. In four years time a grad' who started on the same as your Ph. D. wage will be making substantially more than you and may even be your boss by the time you have completed your Ph. D.


Are you really so highly qualified that you think we are all going to stroke your ego and advise you how brilliant you are avoiding real work.



SkyCam you obviously don't know the first thing about what it takes to get a Ph. D. You are my hero, I am in awe of all of this "real work" you do.

Sorry, but had to bite eventually, not a formal member of the Spelling Police!


I'm sorry too SkyCam, I had to bite eventually. You are evidently a non-member of the grammar police judging by your previous post!:ok:

[JamesTigris]

I think your question is a valid one. I don't read your concerns that you're overqualified to fly aircraft but that you'll be too far down an unrelated career route to go back to scratch again.

I have had similar issues, being a qualified Physicist having made a half reasonable effort at progressing down a career in industry. Applying for the Fugley scheme it was very hard to convince the assessors I was willing to make the (apparent from their perspective) backwards step to the bottom rung of an industry with significantly worse T&Cs etc. Though I imagine I was probably rejected for subhuman aptitude!

I am not expert (and there are no guarentees) but I would question the assumption that there is no short term financial detrement to studying a PHd (with the possible exception of one of those fancy EngD schemes). I am currently following your alternative, working and training simultaniously.

I would not underestemate the amount of cost it takes to do your training with decent currency in this country. Weather is a big issue but cash flow was the bigger one for me (it takes a long time to save the cash for a PPL and hours building and you'll need a big reserve if you plan to keep it consolidated and thus minimise the airtime).

I am currently doing the ATPLs distance learning and my current financial plan leaves me short of using my own money to pay for the IR!

Having said that I am not 100% convinced that the route I am currently taking offers a reasonable chance of getting a job with a scheduled airline, from an employers point of view it is a package with quite a bit of risk. In which case a SE CPL may be perfectly reasonable place to start and the IR may come 2-3 years later before the ATPL ground exams expire if at all.

[CirrusF]

If I were in your position, I would join the military and become a military pilot. There are many more opportunities to use your qualifications in military flying than in civilian flying.

I got a double-first from Cambridge in Aero-engineering, and a Masters from MIT, and now find myself (mostly) flying business jets, where my academic studies are completely wasted. I regret not having gone military flying when I had the chance.

[J101]

I'm doing my PPL now and I just came onto this airline forum out of general interest - I've got no interest in becoming a professional pilot. However I am an engineer and I do have a (research) masters degree.

I'd say, in general, PhDs are not a good idea. There are some specific circumstances where they are useful, like if you go into adademia or go into a research field in a large well funded corporation, but in general:

- They are a lot of work
- You do not get paid more at the end: infact you often get paid less
- You are seen as overqualifed or too bookish for most jobs
- You lose 3-4 years where you would otherwise be getting paid and getting more experienced in the general workforce

I'm 30-something and have a good career in engineering, still doing technical work. It pays well and it has taken me around the world. I can do a PPL without even thinking about the cost or having to save for it. I could even buy a not too used Mooney or something without breaking the bank. I don't have to work too hard (this is not in the UK obv, as engineering doesn't pay that well there). Most of my colleagues are in the same position as me, I'm not special or overly talented or anything.

I am 100% sure I would be getting paid less, have less freedom and be in a lower position now, if I had done a PhD instead of a masters.

If you do a PhD, think very carefully about what you are planning on doing for a career afterwards, esp as the flying may or may not work out. Consider if you really want to do a PhD or you would rather spend that time working in industry - neither option should make a difference to your flying one way or the other.