R44 Rental - Las Vegas

[airbourne]

I did a bit of a search and the information seems to be a bit out of date. I will be on holidays in Las Vegas at the beginning of January 2010 and I am looking to rent an R44 with an instructor for a couple of hours of a jolly to maybe Hoover Dam, Grand Canyon and the like.

Can anyone recommend any companies or personal experiences?

Cheers.

[RaymondKHessel]

Maria Langer is based out of Wickensburg, AZ and does Grand Canyon tours. You can find her on her blog, AnEclecticMind.com.

[toptobottom]

airbourne

I did this a couple of years ago - you won't be able to fly down the Grand Canyon as this is restricted to approved flights only, but you can do the hoover dam, fly around the stratosphere hotel, down the strip, etc. They used Astras when i was there.

Leading Edge Rotorcarft
1100 Airport Road
Boulder City
NV 89005

+1 (702) 293 0422

TTB

[airbourne]

Got a reply from one company wanting $500 per hour with instructor and fuel. Seems a bit steep to me. Anybody else?

[RMK]

$450/hr wet with safety pilot/instructor is the cheapest I’ve seen anywhere in US for R44s so $500 is not too far off the mark. Also, you don’t really have the choice to self-fly hire R44s in most of the US. Everyone will give you a R22, but as most R44s are on the Robinson/Pathfinder offhshore insurance scheme (a BVI company) which has an incredibly high deductible (I’m told $80K) virtually no one will give you a R44 for SFH.

My result was I only found 1 in the whole state of Florida (cost me $400/hr) and when I tried the same around Los Angeles, I called 9 different FBOs and all would give me a R22, but none a R44 without safety pilot.

Please post your result, as I’d be interested in doing some flying around Las Vegas myself.

[airbourne]

Does anyone actually read the posts at all? Im not looking for SFH. PPL with 60 hours, im not that stupid to think that I can go off flying on my todd in some very busy airspace around Las Vegas.

I might just have to go back to the other side. I have 55 hours in a cessna 172.

[HOVERJOCKI]

There are a couple of R44s flying out of either N. Las Vegas airport or Boulder City (not sure of the company names).
Most of the area is pretty easy to fly around especially if you are with an instructor/safety pilot familiar with the area and ATC.
You can fly over the canyon but you'll be minimum 8000'+ dependant on what sector you are in. As for going IN TO.. will not happen due to special regs pertaining to the SFAR.
Good luck with your hunt and enjoy your trip.

[airbourne]

I am going to add San Francisco to the mix, going there for 3 days so again, R44 rental around SFO. Anyone with any information of experience?

Ta

[n5296s]

Try Sirius at Palo Alto. I doubt that they'll check you out for SFH in three days but they'll certainly do dual. There are quite a few places in the Bay Area that have R44s, google is your friend to find others.

[airbourne]

I have been looking into this and it seems to be a whole lot of hassle for the sake of 1 or 2 hours. Spoke to a nice guy in Monarch Sky and got this......



If you want to fly N-registered airplanes (U.S. registered), you can easily validate your foreign private pilot license into an American one issued by the FAA. As compared to the European validation procedure, the American one is simple. It’s only a matter of paperwork. See the respective 14 CFR 61.75 regulation (Private pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign pilot license) for complete details.

The simplicity sits in the fact that you do not need any extra flight tests, paper or exams, you do not need an extra medical certificate and the procedure is free of charge. All restrictions applicable on your foreign license do apply of course.

First, you should submit your data to the FAA via their website. Then you get a letter stating that the FAA is investigating the validity of your foreign pilot license. They therefore contact the foreign CAA. Once they get confirmation, you get an invitation letter for you to go to a local Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) . There is one in Las Vegas. Usually, you must visit one in the USA. At the FSDO (you need an appointment), you just show up with all relevant paperwork, and if all goes well you get a temporary pilot certificate (valid for 6 months) on the spot!

I had a look at the forms and all that and it seems way to much hassle and paperwork to go through to go flying for a couple of hours. I havnt had this hassle in the past in florida, or even the last time I was in Vegas in 2003.

Can anyone shed anymore light on this for me?

[birrddog]

If you just want to fly for a few hours, and the validation is not worth the effort, just fly dual.

Even with a validation, each operator is going to want to fly a few hours with you, and get you through their insurance procedures before (and assuming their insurance allows them) they will let you SFH on your own.

In addition to the above, the currency (operator check ride/emergency procedures review) requirements will probably mean you need to do ongoing dual regardless.

There are some exceptions if you have greater than 1500 hours, and approximately 500 hours on type, some insurance policies have a "qualified pilot" designation, though this is insurance policy specific.

[vaqueroaero]

The temporary certificate is valid for 120 days, although your 'plastic' one should arrive well within that time frame.

Secondly, before being able to exercise the privileges of your new certificate you must have completed a flight review with an authorized instructor.

Once that is complete then off you go.............

[airbourne]

Birddog,

I appreciate what you are saying to me but let it me be very clear in what I want, because nobody is actually reading what I am looking for.

I do not want SFH
I want an instructor
I want about 2 hours flying time so that I can fly over Vegas, Hoover Dam, and Grand Canyon. 3 pax. Me, instructor, and girlfriend in the back, thats it!

I have about 60 hours in a 44, one thing I am definatly NOT ready for is SFH in airspace that is alien to me.

[birrddog]

airbourne, gotcha.

On a side note, if when you speak to operators... they mention TSA clearance you don't need TSA approval as you would be operating under the foreign license.

In the US, all "training" flights by aliens requires TSA approval, unless it is for a flight/training in the same category and class for which you already hold an ICAO license.
(In rotorcraft case, anything under 12,500lbs).

The above strictly refers to TSA requirements, not FAA.

[RMK]

The people on here are pretty knowledgeable. Generally you can ask a question and within an hour you have an answer and your problem is solved. However, in your case you repeatedly berate others on the thread as not answering your query to your satisfaction. People have made the effort to login and type a reply and you’re bitching about the detail in their replies; I’ve never seen another thread where this has been done.

While you’re being succinct about your needs, why don’t you phrase your queries to be better understood? To other pilots “Hire a Helicopter” means just that – hire a helicopter which is SFH. If you don’t trust your own skills/training either go back for lessons or phrase your query to include the words “DUAL” or “SAFETY PILOT” which we all know as meaning to have another pilot sitting next to you.

From your number-of-posts to flying hours ratio, I can assume this isn’t the first time you’ve wasted other peoples time.

Oh, and I love your comment “alien airspace”?? It’s California not Kazakhstan!

[chester2005]

have they moved Las Vegas ???
last time i was there it was in Nevada not California...

Chester:ok:

[airbourne]

RMK,

Let deal with that why dont we: My first post on this thread was ......I will be on holidays in Las Vegas at the beginning of January 2010 and I am looking to rent an R44 with an instructor for a couple of hours

Does that mention SFH? NO!
Does it say I want an instructor? YES!
Does it say that I am just looking for a couple of hours? YES

So in my mind, it looks simple and straightforward to me. A lot of the replies came from people talking about SFH, and not once did I say that I was looking for that, rather that I did want an instructor.

"From your number-of-posts to flying hours ratio, I can assume this isn’t the first time you’ve wasted other peoples time."

Attack the post, not the poster. I have been a member of PPrune for nearly 10 years and have contributed to PPrune as well. You do not know me, that is because you are here a wet week with a handful of posts.

Not that it matters but I used to have a lot more posts but in some major re-do of the site a few years ago I lost all my posts and had to start again.

The quotes that I had were all around the $500 mark, as per your last reply. I have been trying to find something else, and that is why I keep asking.

Finally, as a fairly new heli pilot, I consider ANYWHERE that is not within the 50 miles or so that I train to be ALIEN airspace. Back in my fixed wing days in 2003, I took a C172 with an instructor out of North Las Vegas to Grand Canyon etc and that was a new experience. When I get a few more hours, and more experience, then maybe I will leave the comfort zone that is the north east of england.

Incidentally, its Nevada, not California!!! :D

[RMK]

His (Airbourne's) last post before moaning again was "I am going to add San Francisco to the mix" - which is in California. Ahh... a knowledge of geography is also available here; you see Airbourne, these guys are great.

I've had PPL(H) since 2006, have 150+ hours helicopter PIC and have flown helis in multiple countries on three differing continents. I'm by no means a long-time "pro sky jock" like many on here, but don't be mislead by my PPrune joining date in your wet reference.

Your timidity seems juxtaposed with that of all the great Irish adventurers/explorers... oh I'm sorry their aren't any


- no offense to any Irish PPruners, I'm just winding Airbourne up further

[Gordy]

Airborne,

To answer your question---this is relatively easy, especially if you are not looking to use the flight time towards the hours requirements for a certificate or rating. Why don't you just send an e-mail or call Vegas Air Service (http://vegasairservicellc.com/). Ask for Josh, the owner, he will be happy to help you. (He is a friend of mine---let him know I sent you).

I have no affiliation with his company---He flew with me to log some hours a few years ago when I was ferrying an aircraft across the country for a contract.

Or feel free to PM me and I can introduce you.

Edited to add: He needs to update his website---I believe he has an R-44 or jetranger also now.

[birrddog]

Oh, and I love your comment “alien airspace”?? It’s California not Kazakhstan!
As was pointed out, not only is it in Nevada, but if you are wearing a tinfoil hat Area 51 IS Alien airspace :E

[RMK]

Thanks Birddog, that reminded me there is R44 rental, with instructor, at Area 51 for I believe $220/hr. Great deal and fantastic savings for "Airbourne". No need to call ahead or check websites, just show up at the gates and they’ll more than helpful.

[airbourne]

Wow! A whole 150 hours?!?! I had no idea I had so much experience talking to me! Anyway, thats it.

Gordy, thanks for you help.

[airbourne]

Gordy,

Rang Josh, he doesnt have an R44. So back to the drawing board.

[toptobottom]

airbourne - did you try Leading Edge Rotorcraft (http://www.lasvegas.net/Leading-Edge-Rotorcraft.htm)in Boulder City (post #3) for the Vegas trip?

I booked over the phone a week before, showed them my passport, log book and JAR licence when we turned up and within 30 minutes we were over the Hoover dam.

[airbourne]

I sent an email yesterday and havnt got a reply yet. Just tried ringing them there, and the number is disconnected!

[toptobottom]

They may no longer be trading - the owner, Benji Grammer, was sadly killed in a helo crash (http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterforum/index.php?showtopic=7567&pid=54559&mode=threaded&start=) just before I flew there and I'm not sure what his partner did with the company after that.

[airbourne]

This is the information I got back from Monarch Sky in Las Vegas about duel flying for a couple of hours. Its not looking good to be honest.



By TSA regulations, we can not give training toward a US initial certificate, and Instrument, or a multi engine.

Since xxxxxxx does not have a US certificate, the training he receives could be considered training toward his initial US certificate.

The loop-hole of “discovery flights” is widely used to give training in these situations to non-pilots but a discovery flight is defined as a one time introduction to aviation for the purpose of promoting aviation. Certainly this would not apply to someone who is already a pilot.

I am aware that other schools may interpret these rules less conservatively but I have done a great deal of research with the TSA as well as AOPA to determine how safely to operate within the rules. I do not necessarily agree with the rules and apologize for their lack of common sense, but we are bound to them none the less.

The FAA Airman certification Branch can be reached at 405-954-3261, they will grant authorization for the Las Vegas FSDO to issue a US FAA certificate based on his foreign certificate. He must then call the Las Vegas FSDO to set up an appointment when he is in Las Vegas, 702-269-8013, the actual meeting takes less than 30 minutes and there is no charge/fee.

-------------------------------------

This is the information that I have been given. I am a jaa pilot, I do not wish to undergo FAA training rather just take a dual flight for 1-2 hours.

Am I correct in assuming that I still have to go and apply to the FAA for this permission.

Regards,

"If when you speak to operators... they mention TSA clearance you don't need TSA approval as you would be operating under the foreign license.

In the US, all "training" flights by aliens requires TSA approval, unless it is for a flight/training in the same category and class for which you already hold an ICAO license.
(In rotorcraft case, anything under 12,500lbs).

The above strictly refers to TSA requirements, not FAA."

---------------------------------------------

You are correct! You do have to apply for a US certificate.

Understand the following:per FAA rules, a foreign pilot may not fly a us certificated plane without a private pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign pilot license CFR §61.75 or a Special purpose pilot authorization CFR §61.77

I understand, respect and appreciate that you are fully qualified, BUT, you are not a US certificated pilot.

I understand that you do not require “training”, you are fully trained, none the less, there is no provision specifying the statement you’ve included in regard to ICAO.

In the US, all "training" flights by aliens requires TSA approval, unless it is for a flight/training in the same category and class for which you already hold an ICAO license.(In rotorcraft case, anything under 12,500lbs).

While you do not need training, any flight you conduct in the US with a US Certified Instructor is considered flight training.

CFR §1552.1 Scope and Definitions
CFR §1552.1 (c) Category 3

[birrddog]

As I stated, if you are getting training, and for now lets say you are training as that's what they told you this flight needs to be, for the same category and class that you already hold an icao license, you do not need TSA approval.

If you were say getting training in fixed wing and had a foreign rotor wing license, then you would need to register at flightschoolcandidate.gov.

[airbourne]

I dont disagree with you birddog, I know you are right. But thats Monarch Sky, they are unwilling to let me fly with them either way unless I jump through all the TSA hoops!

[birrddog]

airbourne: Have a look at AOPA Online: AOPA's Guide to TSA's Alien Flight Training/Citizenship Validation Rule (http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/)

If you can get the operator to accept the flight as a flight review - confirming your existing skills for aircraft check out (a check ride, if you will), as flight reviews are exempt.

I see the rules have recently changed, and Category 4 applications (getting a FAA license on the basis of a foreign license - not a validation, an actual license) now require online submission at flightschoolcandidates.gov for a Category 4 application, and you will need to upload copies of your passport, pilots license, etc. and pay a $70 fee.

The problem if you fly under the "training" rule and get a Category 4 approval (which can be done online) means that you would need to get a visa that allows flight training - doing training on a e.g. British Visa Waiver entry to the US would be in violation of the regs.

So, in short, if you can't get it qualified by the operator as a flight review, it is probably less hassle for you to get an FAA validation of your existing license which would remove the TSA requirements, as they are for training towards a license.

[bluestack]

Airbourne,

I got your requirements first time ;-)

I trained at HAI, FL, along with a good friend who is based in Vegas, doing all his flying in the 44.

He's familiar with exactly what you want to do, is an instructor and is very well regarded, as well as a damn decent bloke.

PM me and I'll pass on his details. (We're both ex-UK, so can speak the lingo).

Blue.

[airbourne]

Well I am back from my trip to Vegas and San Francisco so I had to report back on everything that went on. Firstly thanks to bluestack for all his help in helping me make contact in Las Vegas.

Through Bluestacks help he put me in touch with a great guy based in Las Vegas, current on the R44, B206 and a couple of others. After touching base via a couple of emails to give him log book and medical details the trip was booked for Saturday 2nd Jan.

Myself and Mrs airbourne were picked up at out hotel at 9am, and driven the 30ish miles to Boulder City Airport, home to a few flying schools, GA, the tour companies and Las Vegas Helicopter Services (http://www.r44helicopter.com)

My instructor was great, not wanting to actually provide instruction (although I say you can never learn too much from someone that knows more that you) but still giving those handy hints that you always need to remember. A couple of differences for me were that it was a Raven 2, whereas I am used to an Astro, plus it was lifting from concrete. You know what I mean when you are used to lifting from grass.

Anyway, a PRISTINE R44 was rolled out from the hanger, all checks were done and the trip was planned. In fact, my guy suggested a much better route than I had planned. Again, another reason to have someone local on board that has the knowledge. Taking off from Boulder City, and flying below 3000ft toward the Strip. This was 9am on a Saturday morning, but skies were still busy with inbound commercial traffic and the tour flights. The tour guys operate slight higher than 3000ft so you have to watch out for them. Heading towards the city, overhead Fremont Street, and then up the strip, turning at New York, New York towards Hoover Dam (slightly left of the tour traffic). Again, I say this is where local knowledge is a major plus. I havnt done it before, so flying between the buildings is a bit nerve racking. Bear in mind I have about 60 hours, so everything is nerve racking!!!

So over to the Dam, a few 360's there and then onwards to an area right of the Grand Canyon. Obiviously avoiding the tour traffic. There is the option to land at (1G4) North Grand Canyon airstrip, but at $100 fee, its not worth it.

Did everything I wanted to do and see, and overall it was about 2.5 hours skids up to skids down. I will say again, although I had the relative knowledge, it was nice to be reminded of speeds, height and aircraft ops. It was more like a very fun lesson.

I was asked not to mention the instructor by name, but if anyone wants to contact the club, its Las Vegas Helicopter Services (http://www.r44helicopter.com) Bluestack also knows the person involved. He is easily identified by the sticker on the back of his car!

So if you are planning any holidays to Las Vegas and want some flying at reasonable prices, I suggest you contact these guys. I cannot recommend them high enough. I was very very happy with every aspect of the prep, flying, and everything. Have a look at the website or I would be happy to answer any questions anyone has either here or by PM.

[bartkobe]

Airbourne,

Sounds like a fantastic experience. Do you know if the company do something similar with R22's?

Thanks

[airbourne]

Fantastic experience is an underrated word! I do not know if they use the R22, but (a) there was one in the hanger and (b) my instructor is checked out on them. However, he told me he doesnt work on the 22 anymore. Lets just say weight is an issue! ha!

[Freefall77]

Hey Airbourne,

Thanks for the info,
I know what you mean about the concrete,

Heading to Vegas in 2 weeks and looking to do something similar,
How much per hour should I expect to pay?

FreeFall

[airbourne]

PM Sent for your attention. It is $500 ph