Spotters to Spot Trouble?

[Critical Reynolds No]

Have heard that the AFP will be trialing a scheme where spotters (the spotty types that hang around the fences wanting to get in) will be issued ASIC type clearances and cards to report any suspicious activity. Applicants will have criminal background checks (ala ASIC) and then given a special number to call in the feds. In "reward", they are given access to airside of special viewing areas. I'm not sure if the reward is for being a member or for gaining a conviction.

I wonder if that would include psychological tests?

Sounds like a good idea but I have the feeling it could be misused and the appeal to spotters having asic clearance and a uniform/vest sounds like attracting flies to a dog poop.

Apologies if posted before. Just now been able to pull myself away from MadCow in TSV.:D

PS. This is not a dig at spotters.

[Aerohooligan]

Sounds bizarre and ridiculous to me. Isn't that why CASA ramp-checks us periodically??? How is a spotter on the boundary fence with a pair of binocs and a pad and pencil supposed to reliably report incidents they believe are 'illegal'?

For example, they would need to have a thorough knowledge of things like dangerous goods (including which operators have approval to carry them and which don't), aircraft limitations (ie how many seats can you remove from a C206, what's the baggage area limit on a PA31), passenger number limitations (7 ppl may be carried in a six seat aeroplane under certain circumstances etc)...I could go on.

Who will provide that training???

Bad idea, top to bottom. It will create unnecessary paperwork and more red tape to further strangle the already wheezing system.

[YPJT]

Have heard that the AFP will be trialing a scheme where spotters (the spotty types that hang around the fences wanting to get in) will be issued ASIC type clearances and cards to report any suspicious activity.
Care to share your source? It is after all airport management who decides who and who does not have access to airside areas.

[Monopole]

Aerohooligan
report any suspicious activity
Not nonregulatory activity. In otherwords if they see a couple of shady looking fellows in a conspicuous area. Nothing more then everyone else in this country has been asked to do, except the spotters get to go airside for a reward. They, nor the AFP would'nt care less how many seats are in a 207.

I say bring it on. The fence people probably know better then anybody else what is unusual activity in their favourite stomping ground

[ZappBrannigan]

Sounds bizarre and ridiculous to me. Isn't that why CASA ramp-checks us periodically??? How is a spotter on the boundary fence with a pair of binocs and a pad and pencil supposed to reliably report incidents they believe are 'illegal'?I think we're talking suspicious security-related activity here - not ramp-check type illegalities. Ironically, spotters are already doing the exact type of thing Mr Howard's "alert but not alarmed" campaign told us to look out for - sitting on the fence of a restricted area taking photos.

It's still absolutely nuts. Any reportable suspicious activity is going to be on the outside of the fence - so why would they need to be airside to observe and report? If the suspicious activity is airside, by a person with authority to be in that place - all the ASIC-wielding spotter can legally do is ring up the hotline. Can't think what that activity could POSSIBLY be, apart from a person not displaying an ASIC, or wearing appropriate clothing - but if they're doing this near the runway environment and have hostile intentions, they've already dodged every layer of airport security. The whole concept is ridiculous, and I don't agree that it even sounds like a good idea - if there's any truth to it at all.

[ZappBrannigan]

In otherwords if they see a couple of shady looking fellows in a conspicuous area.Airside or landside? The above description fits many spotters themselves - what exactly are the AFP supposed to do when they receive this call? "I've seen two guys taking photos near the fence - they look dodgy". No offence detected, no reasonable belief that any offence will be committed, no reason to search or arrest, unless they're taking photos of things like refuelling equipment and security gates etc. - but that's why everybody with an ASIC has a responsibility to observe and report this stuff - and we have routine patrols to look out for it.

If they're airside - well, if they have no ASIC they'll be arrested anyway (I'm talking major airports, not some small GA apron), and if they do - you've described 70% of baggage handlers and ground staff I know.

[Critical Reynolds No]

Foamers foaming at the mouth here:

Plane Spotters at Sydney - Join In! - Sydney Airport Message Board (http://yssyforum.net/board/showthread.php?t=4055)

[VH-XXX]

No way. Don't get me started on this. I'm already a victim of a spotter-muppet abusing his perceived "power" by informing CASA that my aircraft had been written-off when quite clearly it hadn't (he stuffed up). I then received a "show cause" from CASA as to why my registration shouldn't be cancelled.

It's plain dumb if you ask me.

[Monopole]

ZappBrannigan,

Unless I am missing the point, I dont think the spotters are going to be airside. Heck, I have an ASIC and one that allows me access through the doors at a Capital City airport and I cant just be airside for the sake of it or to take photos.
The card (just my understanding) is NOT an ASIC. It was only discribed and rather poorly as an ASIC type (style) card. It will not permit them airside but rather identify them as a member of a group of spotters that have the privilage to be rewarded by going airside SUPERVISED.
It is still IMO a good idea, provided they remain landside and do not go chest thumping thinking they are airport police.

[AussieNick]

in theory it sounds like a good idea. But it is enevitable that people will abuse the privilage.

[ZappBrannigan]

Unless I am missing the point, I dont think the spotters are going to be airside. Heck, I have an ASIC and one that allows me access through the doors at a Capital City airport and I cant just be airside for the sake of it or to take photos.
The card (just my understanding) is NOT an ASIC. It was only discribed and rather poorly as an ASIC type (style) card. It will not permit them airside but rather identify them as a member of a group of spotters that have the privilage to be rewarded by going airside SUPERVISED.
It is still IMO a good idea, provided they remain landside and do not go chest thumping thinking they are airport police.If this is the case, then they have achieved nothing that couldn't be achieved by displaying some signage at the viewing areas with "call 131 AFP to report any suspicious activity". Giving spotters some perceived power will only lead to increased numbers of bogus reports and wasted police time - especially if there's the carrot of airside visits and other stuff dangling in front of them.

I just can't imagine a single reportable event happening near the viewing areas, apart from photography and note-taking (which the spotters themselves are doing anyway) - what do they expect, someone measuring out a site for a surface-to-air missle or something? If it's something as blatant as someone trying to jump the fence - well, that's something the public has a duty to immediately report anyway, forget the badge and the background check. At other areas where they may be credible suspicious activity (such as near airside access points, gates, refuelling areas etc.) - spotters have no business being near there conducting any kind of psuedo-surveillance operation - leave it to the professionals.

I'm not saying we shouldn't encourage the reporting of suspicious activity - just that creating a little detective club will not enhance this at all.

[b_sta]

If actual pilots with actual pilot licences and ASICs aren't allowed airside at major airports without specific permission, then bloody spotters certainly shouldn't be. :mad:

[tail wheel]

How bizarre – a civilian volunteer security service, remunerated with air-side junkets? :confused: :confused:

I don't think someone has really thought this one through, in particular the potential liabilities. :=

[Dunnza]

No liabilities Tail - one can witness suspicious activity and report it and its up to the authority to investigate.

These guys dont have to be airside to see stuff that would raise eyebrows

[haughtney1]

I'll probably getting flamed/hung drawn and quatered for this but....

I think its a good idea, despite what a lot of people think..most spotters are just normal people with a genuine (if slightly more obsessive) interest in aviation, it merely goes a bit beyond what most of us consider a fun day out at an airshow etc.
Personally, I'm perfectly happy to think that there is a group of enthusiasts who love and enjoy aviation as much as I do being there on the lookout for suspicious activity..and no not airside..I mean vehicles parked in unusual places, people doing odd stuff near fence lines etc etc.
Yes spotters are considered a bit odd by some, to me they are potentially a valuable tool that can (if managed properly..i.e using common sense) enhance aviation security for all of us. :ok:

[YPJT]

Great! fertile imaginations coupled with little or no expertise in aviation or associated security but just enough knowledge to become a damn nuisance.

The thought of spotty faced muppets stalking airport boundaries in cam and equipped with DSE two-ways, binos and a Mountain Designs survival kit sends shivers down my spine.:mad:

This isn't something left over from April 01 is it?

[Dunnza]

New Avatar I see TailWheel

[Torquatus]

Can't they just do what they've always done at non-airfield/airport locations, and call the police or the National Security Hotline (as appropriate) whenever they see something suspicious (or me forgetting my hi-vis vest)?

[tail wheel]

Obviously a few failed to read the thread in full? :ugh:

"In return, if plane spotters observe suspicious activity around the airport, they would ring 131 AFP to report the matter, or 000 if the matter required immediate police response.

In return, as a reward, members may be offered free airside bus tours, simulator flights or airside access to get up close to those planes you want to photograph. Anything is possible, I'm not ruling anything in or out at the moment."

My bolding of the "remuneration" part.............

And here is the snitch:

Those interested would submit a form (possibly electronically) and be subjected to criminal history checks. Assuming everything is OK, they would be issued some form of ID card which identified them as an Airport Watch member. It is anticipated there would be some sort of fee involved, though it yet to be determined what that might be.

[Critical Reynolds No]

Haughts. Spotters are not normal. A "small" percentage maybe and that's coming from personal experience. I met one snapping away at the C-17s at the TVS terminal and tried to ask some questions, gear, name etc trying to be nice. The sweaty gentleman (mind you I think he just got off a flight from Syd or Mel) totally ignored myself and friend and walked away.

Maybe we'll see some on Beauty and the Geek on ch 7! Their social skills are below par. Giving them a carrot beggars belief!:ugh:

[haughtney1]

In return, as a reward, members may be offered free airside bus tours, simulator flights or airside access to get up close to those planes you want to photograph. Anything is possible, I'm not ruling anything in or out at the moment."

The key word here is MAY, it doesn't say "will", nor does it say "can expect" etc etc....
Just like anything in life, you can view this as a problem or opportunity. Its quite simple really..if the authorities are able to take a pragmatic approach (thats another thread entirely of course!) to this..then the expectation of remuneration, or even the perception of it can be set at a satisfactory level.

[tmpffisch]

What threat would spotters be looking for exactly? IMO spotters are as suspicious as things get, and generally don't pose a risk at all (only a occasional nuisance such as VH-XXX's example).

When it comes down to it, spotters should be getting reported to the terrorism hotline...but surely if someone cut a hole in the cyclone fencing and ran towards a terminal any layman (even a spotter) would call 000.

[cficare]

There is a destinct whiff of BS in the air with this topic!!

[Hasherucf]

I do like how the first guy to reply on the Sydney airport message board had such a middle eastern sounding name 'Sarmad Al-Koziae' . That is being stereotypical and sarcastic ......something not used on this board much :}

cficare I am with you ....very BS sounding

[aseanaero]

... if it happens we have a new nickname in Oz aviation , the 'Mole Patrol'

[Runaway Gun]

Personally, I think it's a great idea if implimented properly.

These guys/gals happen to be viewing aircraft from outside the airfield boundary, and they enjoy being there. Many of them are intelligent and pleasant people. Some of them aren't. I know a few pilots that fit into the "aren't" category as well.

If they spot something out of the ordinary, then they call it in. No big deal if it's a false alarm. I'm sure if they pulled a joke then they would be made aware of their mistake, and suitably briefed or punished.

As for letting them airside as a reward, then that's just fine by me. It's not like they'd be allowed to roam at will.

[Sunfish]

Hmmmmm, this is what I can see.

Walk on to ramp from ops room carrying usual junk, headphones, bag, etc..

Spotter report: Unidentified person with ASIC not visible is airside with suspicious packages.

Unlock aircraft, open door, dump junk in aircraft. Check oil, fuel. Walk back to Ops to ring for fuel, collect oil and rag plus canopy cleaner.

Spotter report: Aircraft unsecured on ramp.

Add oil, clean canopy, untie aircraft, take oil and cleaner back to ops, fuel truck arrives.

Spotter report: Unsecured aircraft on ramp being fuelled 100mm too close to another aircraft.

and so it will continue.


..........

Give these buggers any form of official status and watch them develop an encyclopaedic knowledge of the regulations. They will report your most minor apparent infraction.

[apache]

Great! fertile imaginations coupled with little or no expertise in aviation or associated security but just enough knowledge to become a damn nuisance.


you've just described most airline management types!

[ZappBrannigan]

If they spot something out of the ordinary, then they call it in. No big deal if it's a false alarm.Sounds great. But it's not. One, they have to have a clue about what's out of the ordinary and what's not - and they don't - apart from someone resembling Osama wiring up an explosive device near the fence (or something equally stereotypical), what are they looking for? Cars and people loitering - that's it, that's all it can be. Which describes spotters themselves. There's nothing weird about people loitering around aircraft viewing areas and doing laps in their cars - because that's what people who want to look at aircraft do.

Of course, it'll end up being the usual case of the guy with the middle eastern appearance getting "reported", while the western guy with 2 kids in the car is, and never will be, given a second look by the general public.

And it IS a big deal if it's a false alarm. It's a lesser version of calling 000 when nothing's actually wrong. People have to respond in some way, and get pulled away from other more important tasks to do it. In this case, the AFP. When it's a passive system - i.e. encouraging any member of the public to report suspicious persons - it's fine. When you lead people to believe they're pseudo-police, and then actually offer rewards for doing it - you multiply the inbound garbage information.

And this has nothing to do with spotters being "nice people", which has been mentioned a few times. I'll say it again, encouraging the reporting of suspicious behaviour is a good thing - but this is a ridiculous way of supposedly increasing the flow of good information - no doubt another AFP "initiative" - they're excellent at creating new illusions of security without actually spending any money.

[Worrals in the wilds]

100% agreed on that Zapp, except that IMHO it's a whole of government problem including the OTS and the border agencies, not just the AFP.

spotters being "nice people"

Some, sure. Others are a PITA already. My airport has several regulars with scanners who phone Airservices to complain whenever the radio traffic deviates from the procedures, even if it's really pedantic stuff. They're a bit like the ancient ex-students that used to call my school and complain about students not wearing their badges correctly. Same symptoms, same disease: not enough to do with their time and a manic desire to mind everyone else's business! :bored:

People who see anything dodgy should be calling 000 or 131AFP. Surely it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. No need for a 'Mole Patrol' (ROFLMAO)!

BTW, at the risk of being boring, are there any verifiable sources that back up this story?

[YPJT]

My colleagues in other airports were unable to respond to me after I emailed this link to them today. They have trouble typing during fits of hysterical laughter. :}

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

It's not a new idea, or unique to Australia. From 2004:
BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | Plane-spotters join terror fight (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3682329.stm)

[Critical Reynolds No]

Did this UK idea get off the ground though?

[psycho joe]

Not only have the AFP been able to compile a complete dossier on these suspicious fence sitting muppets, but the said muppets volunteered their own personal info. :ok:

All because of the vague hint of offering status & power.

It's the oldest psych trick in the book. I just cant believe that people still fall for it.

[Sunfish]

Aeronautical equivalent of the Nazi "Blockfuhrer".

[aseanaero]

http://home.planet.nl/~herbe164/SPOTTERS/spotters8.jpg

The guy (left) is obviously an imposter and potential security threat (or undercover AFP , should have done his homework better) ... his lens doesn't look like it belongs in an observatory.

http://home.planet.nl/~herbe164/SPOTTERS/Iwan1.jpg

yep , look like pretty normal folks to me :8



-

[Sunfish]

The saddest cases I've ever seen used to cluster under the windsock at YMMB and take pictures of C150's taxiing past.

[Wally Mk2]

..............voyeurism...........we all do it in one form or another:)

Some like to do it in the privacy of their own homes, others stand there in all sorts of WX & watch planes.............sad I know. Although in their defence I too used to watch planes as a snotty nosed kid fly overhead atop dads old wood shed as planes flew in & out of EN about a 100 yrs ago! Hence I am here now amongst you lot!:)
What surounds most security controlled airports here in OZ? A soft wred chain-mess linked fence, & often hidden behind trees etc, talk about out all having yr guns where people can see them only!!!!:ugh: Locks are for honest theives!

'aseanaero' loved the pix of the pix takers:ok: We really do have a pre-occupation with size don't we?:E

Wmk2

[b_sta]

Although in their defence I too used to watch planes as a snotty nosed kid fly overhead atop dads old wood shed as planes flew in & out of EN about a 100 yrs ago! Hence I am here now amongst you lot!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Bit of a difference between looking up when planes fly over your house, and camping out behind the runway threshold with your phallic lens jammed through the holes in the fence!

[Wally Mk2]

'b sta'....not at all, we all like to watch, what yr actually hanging onto at the time is where the difference is:}


Wmk2:)

[Sunstar320]

The saddest cases I've ever seen used to cluster under the windsock at YMMB and take pictures of C150's taxiing past.they are still there! :oh:

It seems they also give directions now..
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3358/3657996150_1ed651548a_o.jpg

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Did this UK idea get off the ground though?
Don't know if the system works but it looks like it's still operating
THE AVIATION ENTHUSIASTS SECURITY SCHEME (http://www.taess.org.uk/) and in Canada: YYZ Airport Watch (http://www.airportwatchcanada.com/)
Info from this thread: Heathrow Spotter ID Card - JetPhotos.Net Forums - The Friendly Way to Fly (http://forums.jetphotos.net/showthread.php?t=46274). Opinions do seem divided on its worth there as well.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

It seems they also give directions now..

As in: "YMML is 15 miles that way. Don't forget your CityLink Pass" :)

[aseanaero]

I think the issue for pilots and operators is as Worrals and others have said is spotters incorrectly reporting aviation operational issues to CASA rather than security related issues to the AFP.

Most spotters are harmless genuine aviation enthusiasts and in the old days at Parafield I let a few of them take pictures of themselves sitting in the pilots seat but I have met some busy bodies as well who are wannabe regulations enforcers and get their noses out of joint especially if you tell them to pi$$ off and get off the ramp ("looks a bit heavy mate" loading of an aircraft in my case which was well within weight and balance).

So if this scheme goes ahead there needs to be some reinforcement that the spotters are to report suspicious security risks to the AFP not operational matters to CASA or Airservices.



.

[Wunwing]

Perhaps the current reporting system should be sorted out first.

A few months ago at a largish regional airport we noticed a vehicle parked in an unusual position. It was on the wrong side of the road and not in an area where any aircraft movements could be viewed. In fact there was no reason for him to be there for any length of time. He was back the next day so the driver was challenged. He ignored the challenge so we called the Airport Operator who challenged him with no result. We called the Feds on the provided number. Nothing happened and he was back all week and into the next few weeks.Numerous calls to State Police,Federal Police and anybody else we could think of and he's still there.About a month later after calls to local area command, the State police turn up totally disinterested.

My take on the whole airport security is its all smoke and mirrors.
Wunwing

[Runaway Gun]

Was that the aircraft tug driver having a sleep again? :ok: