"Lifetime" PPL question

[Private jet]

Hi, thought i'd put this query on this forum as somebody is bound to know the answer here. My first ever license (issued 1990) was one of the old CAA PPL's. Subsequently i went on to get pro licenses (FAA & JAA) but as i understand it the old PPL's don't have an expiration date like the later JAA ones, is this still correct? Obviously i've not used it for years but if/when i quit the flying for a living lark i might want to re-activate it one day. I've done a search on here and also attempted to understand LASORS, but its like trying to catch a cup of water from a waterfall! If it is still valid i wonder how long it will be before the EASA regime decide it is another potential revenue stream/job creation programme to put a 5 year life on it!
Kind regards.

[Private jet]

Thanks for that info. I guess that if they did change the rules i could always just keep my FAA qualifications current (maybe just drop the IR) and i understand thats good for day, but strangely enough not at night, on G reg aircraft?

[rotorfossil]

The latest word I had from a CAA briefing a while ago (but watch this space as always) was that all National Licences would cease in 2012 and advice was to exchange the CAA UK PPL for a JAR PPL before then, because the change to an EASA Licence would be a relatively painless paper exercise but maybe not so easy from a national one.

[homeguard]

It is what it is - a lifetime PPL. You need do nothing. Do not confuse a Licence with a rating.

If you have a current SEPL, MEPL or other rating that is current it is so whether using the UK national licence or the JAR complient one issued by the UK. In the event that you did not wish to renew your UK/JAR complient licence but at the time it expires the relevant ratings are valid then you continue flying subject to your UK nationaly issued licence. You simply take the validation page out of the JAR licence and insert it into your UK National PPL.

Should your class rating/s have expired then as with all cases you renew them by a simple class Renewal Test in the the case of the SEPL. The MEPL rating must be revalidated/Renewed every 12 months anyway.

[homeguard]

If and when the EASA changes take place it will not matter a jot whether you hold a UK National issued PPL or a JAR complient one. The advice has not, from the CAA anyway, been to change to a JAR licence prior to the proposed changes.

There are significant delays in the NPA process to new EASA licences. There remains doubt that all will be completed in time for the planned 2012 deadline to be possible, more likely 2015. But as the process is secret it is impossible to know or make an intelligent guess at a date for complience. We don't even know what if any changes there will be.

[Spitoon]

But as the process is secret it is impossible to know or make an intelligent guess at a date for complience. I think that's a little unfair. The NPA process is public, as are the comments received - and you can even input comments yourself.

The problem with EASA is that they rarely seem to accept comments that don't concur with their proposals....

[BillieBob]

If and when the EASA changes take place it will not matter a jot whether you hold a UK National issued PPL or a JAR complient one. The advice has not, from the CAA anyway, been to change to a JAR licence prior to the proposed changes.
This is entirely incorrect. An EASA licence may be issued only on the basis of the equivalent JAA licence and not a UK national one. That is, you will be able to exchange a JAA licence for the EASA equivalent but if you hold only a UK national licence you will be required to meet the EASA requirements for licence issue, including obtaining a pass in the relevant EASA theoretical knowledge examinations and skill test(s).

The UK CAA has been pressuring UK national licence holders to obtain JAA licences since at least November 2007 and are now refusing to issue examiner authorities to the holders of UK national licences, advising applicants that they must first obtain a JAA licence.

[shortstripper]

Presumably, one can keep their UK licence alongside a JAR or EASA licence? If that's the case, then surely a JAR one can be obtained at the last minute and then exchanged for an EASA one near the deadline? They're determined to get our money at some point, so no point in giving it over early! :mad:

SS

[homeguard]

BillieBob

I refer to the UK issued PPL not the UK sub ICAO NPPL. Please note that JAA no longer exists and hasn't for some time. All licences are now EASA

As to the UK NPPL no one has any idea at this moment in time as to the outcome of the so called EASA LPL, but it is most likely that the the requirements to meet that licence will have already been met by UK NPPL holders.

[flybymike]

The UK CAA has been pressuring UK national licence holders to obtain JAA licences since at least November 2007

I have such a licence and know many people who also have one. We have come under no pressure whatsoever to change it.

[BillieBob]

Homeguard - The NPPL/LPL is not relevant to this discussion, which refers to UK national licences such as the lifetime PPL and the UK National (not JAA) CPL and ATPL that a number of pilots (me included) still hold. There is a distinction between a UK-issued JAA licence and a UK National licence that you seem to have missed.

It is not correct to state that all licences are now EASA - whilst it is true that the JAA no longer exists, it is also the case that EASA has not yet assumed responsibility for licensing. Consequently, individual member states are having to make their own arrangements to regulate (or not) during the interregnum. This has been complicated by the fact that EASA have been instructed by the EC to abandon the draft implementing rules presented in NPA 17 and 22 and to start again. In any case, the fact that the JAA no longer exists is not relevant as licences are still issued and maintained in accordance with JAR-FCL 1 or 2.

EASA have stated that licences issued in accordance with JAR-FCL requirements and associated procedures are considered as having been issued in accordance with the implementing rules whereas the same cannot be said of national licences. It is only the former that will be able to be converted to the equivalent EASA licence.

flybymike - By the same token, I am acquainted with a number of people who have felt under such pressure. I attended an FTO/TRTO seminar at Gatwick in 2007 at which the situation was explained and a 'strong' recommendation was made that, consequently, all national licences should be converted to the JAA equivalent before EASA took over. I am aware that a number of propective examiners have been refused authorisation on the sole basis that they hold UK national licences. In my own case, despite already holding CRE(A) and TRE(A) authorisations, I have been refused an FE(PPL) authorisation on the grounds that I hold a UK national ATPL(A) and not the JAA equivalent.

shortstripper - Quite correct, provided that you hold a JAA licence at the time that responsibility is handed over to EASA, you can exchange it for the EASA equivalent.

[homeguard]

BillieBob

I understand where your coming from, but!

Shortly after the inception of JAA the CAA aligned the requirements for the maintenance of UK JAA licences to the JARs. The JARs were incorporated into the UK ANO. On formation EASA also adopted the JARS as a starting point. The JARs therefore are now in fact EASA requirements and EU law and must be complied with by UK issued PPL holders.

Any changes that the EASA working parties come up with will have the same effect on current licence holders whether they be JAR or the older UK issue.

I'm in the position of holding a UK licence but hold JAA (as was) Examiner Authorities. I'm aware of the UK Licence holder requirement to obtain a JAR licence to become a JAR Examiner but it is a simple form filling and a fee payment exercise. Current UK PPL-ATPL holders will more than satisfy the requirements that any proposed EASA changes will demand.

At the last GAPAN seminar at RAF Cranwell we were given a thorough briefing by the CAA leadership at the EASA work parties, nothing as you suggest was raised at that meeting. Some EU countries have different standards from JARs such as Switzerland. As I undertstand it a great effort is being made to reconcile those differences recognising and accommodating the reasons for them.

I can remember well prior to the JAA some CAA officers saying at seminars the same as you say you were told but were quickly corrected by colleagues. It would make no sense at all and would cause a storm if it was attempted to require current ICAO UK PPLs to resit exams and Skill Tests. There has not been a precedent affecting any industry in the way you describe. Aircraft engineers are already well established into EASA and none that I know of have had to surrender their licences and be re-examined and tested.

[flybymike]

There has certainly been talk of CAA PPL holders having to undergo additional training in radio nav before converting CAA to EASA licenses, (since JAR regs required such training and CAA licenses did not.) If true, that is one particular automatic conversion/privilege/grandfather right/call it what you will, which would not be carried across.

[bookworm]

There has certainly been talk of CAA PPL holders having to undergo additional training in radio nav before converting CAA to EASA licenses, (since JAR regs required such training and CAA licenses did not.)

And conversion of a UK PPL to a JAR-FCL PPL has always required the applicant to "demonstrate the use of radio navigation aids".

"Demonstration of the use of radio navigation aids should be to the satisfaction of a Chief Flying Instructor. Successful demonstration should be certified by the CFI in the applicant’s personal flying logbook" [LASORS]