More (EK bashing) from the Herald Sun

[rascott3888]

The Melbourne Herald Sun Editorial - 4 October 2009 - bit like a dog with a bone !!

Listen to the pilots | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/listen-to-the-emirates-pilots/story-e6frfhqf-1225782474842)

"TODAY, the Sunday Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/listen-to-the-emirates-pilots/story-e6frfhqf-1225782474842) exposes a frightening problem within one of the world's biggest airlines.
Emirates is the airline. Pilot fatigue is the issue.

Using US Freedom of Information laws in Washington DC, we have obtained documents that lift the lid on the true extent of this critical safety issue.
Among the documents are a formal complaint to US and Australian aviation authorities and internal emails between Emirates pilots and airline executives.

In the detailed complaint, dated December 21, 2008, the author says the document is written on behalf of Emirates pilots, stating: "There has been continuous pressure from the commercial department ... according to their (the pilots) opinion flight safety is becoming increasingly impaired."

In other words, Emirates' pilots accuse it of putting profits ahead of the lives of passengers and crew.

In an email to Emirates executives, one senior pilot issues this blunt warning: "I am very concerned that the Commercial versus Safety balance in this airline is tipping in the wrong direction."

The pilot goes on: "The sad thing is that in the event of the worst happening it will be the Fatigued Pilots who will be in the dock, dead or alive, and not the people in management ... "

And another pilot warns pilots are suffering from "micro-sleeps" while landing aircraft. This is not the first time the Sunday Herald Sun has highlighted safety concerns at Emirates.

On April 12, we revealed an Emirates Airbus carrying 275 passengers came within 70cm of crashing at Melbourne Airport. The pilot had slept for only 3 1/2 hours in the previous day and was close to his maximum allowed 100 flying hours in the previous month.

Then, in May, we spoke to three Emirates pilots who all raised serious concerns about fatigue.

What the US documents reveal is that despite the safety concerns, the American Federal Aviation Authority has no powers to investigate Emirates, stating it is a foreign carrier.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is investigating the Tullamarine incident, but it has not launched a broader probe into pilots' fatigue claims.

How absurd. Emirates flies to our cities, carrying more than 1.6 million passengers annually. The planes laden with fuel fly over our suburbs.

It is incumbent on Australian and US aviation authorities to immediately investigate Emirates.

No other major airline flying in or out of Australia is facing this level of dissent from its pilots.

The reason their claims must be investigated by an independent safety regulator is this: His Highness Sheik Ahmed Bin Saeed al-Maktoum is chairman of the Emirates Group, which owns Emirates Airline. He is also the president of Dubai's Civil Aviation Authority. He is also on the board of the General Civil Aviation Authority of the United Arab Emirates.

In May, an Emirates pilot, speaking on the condition he not be identified, told the Sunday Herald Sun: "I don't want to see a smoking hole in the ground with an Emirates tail on it, but the way we're going that's highly probable."

Let's hope that pilot is not proven right.

But if he is, aviation authorities the world over cannot claim they were not warned."

[White Knight]

And quite how do 'US Freedom of Information' laws relate to e-mails between the pilot body and EK management:rolleyes: Methinks a little artisitic license here but then again it is the Herald Sun:uhoh:

[411A]

What the US documents reveal is that despite the safety concerns, the American Federal Aviation Authority has no powers to investigate Emirates, stating it is a foreign carrier.


Well actually, this is quite incorrect.
ALL scheduled air carriers that operate to the USA must hold 14CFR129 operating authority, so the FAA does indeed have authority for USA ops (only) by a foreign air carrier.
You just have to know whom to contact in the FAA.

[Praise Jebus]

Whether you like the paper or not, they are keeping the issue alive.

[Plank Cap]

When the workforce feel they have no genuine or meaningful avenue of dialogue with their management on this or many other issues, the tried and tested method of involving the press is often a last resort.....

For too long now EK has ignored legitimate flight safety concerns from its pilots regarding fatigue, and so some people have decided to take things to a higher authority - through the press to the travelling public!

EK have a bad enough name already in some corners of Australia, and with the ATSB's MEL accident report imminent, why add fuel to the fire?

Top tip to those who live in EGHQ upper floors and believe the insulation of Dubai will always protect them - pull your heads out of the sand, deal with the issues and avoid all the mud slinging and embarrassment of this being discussed in the papers. After all Alan, was it not you who said it's all about the public's perception..............?

[tcasguy]

411A writes: Well actually, this is quite incorrect.
ALL scheduled air carriers that operate to the USA must hold 14CFR129 operating authority, so the FAA does indeed have authority for USA ops (only) by a foreign air carrier.

The part 411A missed is that under 14CFR129, the foreign airlines also must operate under the "approval" of the "host country" and if the "host country" approves something different than U.S. rules, then that is OK.

I have heard "rumors" about the EU ramp checks but have never seen an actual example of crews being sent back to the hotel. If anyone has a flight number example, I would be very interested.

Another example of U.S. rules not applying under CFR129 is the Age 60/65 issue. Long before the U.S. made the change, foreign air carriers were flying into the U.S. with Captains over the age of 60. If 411A's premise was correct, this would not have been allowed but it happened daily!

And for those hoping that ICAO standards will "force" EK to make changes, don't hold your breath. ICAO is NOT regulatory in any way and the best example of this is "LINE UP AND WAIT" vs. "TAXI INTO POSITION AND HOLD" in the U.S. The U.S. simply takes an "exception" to the rule and does it the way they want.

While internally EK Senior Management has maintained a "close relationship" (their words at the Captain Propaganda Meetings) with the Aussie investigative board, we can only hope the fact the CA had over 98 hrs at the beginning of his takeoff roll will be highlighted, ESPECIALLY IF THAT TIME INVOLVED ANY FACTORING which would have put him over the limits. But then again, we routinely see the "limits" violated by "VARIATIONS" on the turn-around flights so unfortunately, until the Smoking Hole Syndrome takes effect, I see no changes from EK Mgmt!

Simply, the beatings will continue until the morale improves!

Good Luck and Fly Safe!

[LovedayM]

DUBAI, U.A.E., 4th October 2009: Emirates strongly refutes press reports published in an Australian publication this morning regarding the airline’s management of fatigue risk. Emirates is surprised that objective data provided by it was not included, and one-sided articles were published based on statements from anonymous persons.

Emirates reiterates its absolute commitment to safety.

Emirates is a world leader in the management of pilot fatigue and alertness. Our Fatigue Risk Management System (FRMS) continuously monitors pilot alertness across a broad spectrum of international destinations, varying crew configurations and regulatory requirements. The system meets the regulatory requirements, and was the first to employ a Scientific Advisor on sleep research. Dr. Mark Rosekind, President of Alertness Solutions of the United States, is an ex-NASA scientist and researcher in fatigue mitigation, and his advice is a part of every FRMS study. Emirates’ programmes are of value to the world’s body on international aviation standards, as the airline was requested to provide technical advice on Flight and Duty Time standards during an upcoming session of the newly established panel formed by the International Civil Aviation Organisation.

Emirates’ Flight Time Limitation Scheme is based on international industry norms. Objective testing of alertness and fatigue using scientifically-accepted protocols was conducted on our ultra-long range flights. Testing of alertness during the critical minutes prior to landing and approach indicated no reduction of alertness.

Unlike other carriers, Emirates uses 2 Captains and 2 First Officers on its long-haul flights. Most other airlines have only 1 Captain and 2 First Officers.

Responsibility for preventing the onset of fatigue rests both on the operator and crew. The crew of EK 407 (Melbourne-Dubai, 20 March) were allocated a 24-hour layover in Melbourne - a sufficient time period to use the rest facilities provided. When it released its preliminary report on the event, the Australian Transport & Safety Bureau indicated it had not found any evidence to suggest fatigue was a causal factor.

Emirates is operating under Federal Aviation Authority’s (FAA) Foreign Air Operators Certificate programme. This requires we meet stringent FAA regulatory requirements – including oversight by the body. The FAA notified us that they had found Emirates was in compliance with all FAA, General Civil Aviation Authority (GCAA) and internal requirements relating to flight and duty time, and safety oversight.

Emirates has a positive and open reporting culture that helps management understand safety issues before they become significant concerns. - Ends

[doubleu-anker]

"The system meets the regulatory requirements,"

No ****!

Well I have a message for the EK mouth piece. The legal minimum rest periods, especially on international flights is nowhere near enough and the max monthly and yearly flight times are far too much.

Just because they are legal is no recommendation to me. It may satisfy the insurance companies, until there is a prang and then watch them squeal.

It has been mentioned before and i will run it again. It is know as "tombstone regulation". I.E., nothing will change until there is a gaping, smoking hole in the ground. :}

[Marooned]

Emirates has a positive and open reporting culture that helps management understand safety issues before they become significant concerns

What utter BS, just ask the those who have recently been sacked or demoted.

As for the rest of the statement: How many ASRs did it take for them to take any notice of fatigue at all?

And we are still factoring... what rubbish but what did we expect.

[Lamyna Flo]

Emirates has a positive and open reporting culture that helps management understand safety issues before they become significant concerns.

If anyone from EK management is reading this, please answer me this: do you honestly think anyone reading the above actually believes it? (irrespective of whether you care or not that they do).

[woodja51]

Regards rules/limits.....The same analogy applies to driving down Sk Zed when its foggy - it might be legal to do a 100 but it isnt mandatory! Let alone advisory....same goes for driving pilots to regulatory limits - most of which have been set a long time ago in the days of navigators.FEs etc etc in aircraft with 10 hours max endurance.. not 18!

When you tell someone - non aviation- that you are away on a trip for say 5 days and only spend three nights in a real bed they start to look at you rather strange...:ooh:

It seems that the because the human component ( be it morale, fatigue etc etc) is so 'variable ' and can't be quantified by a bean counter.... like say MTOW, or tonnes of fuel can .....that it will only be when there is sufficient evidence - be it fatigue 'research' or the 'smoking hole' ,that the regulations will reflect reasonable human limits.:D

BTW - I note recently in the Gulf news that Doctors in QLD were up in arms about the health department suggesting they should take caffeine supplements to avoid dozing on long shifts etc...the Dr's were - rightly so ... ticked off that this should be suggested by other health professionals...to use drugs to stay awake ( no... I dont think combat soldiers at war is quite the same thing) ....

It seems odd that the same medical profession involved in the creation of our fatigue plans (which in EK's case... have no LINE pilot input to them by the way :ugh: ( ie use of coffee etc to increase alertness) now seem fit to believe it is inappropriate to extend alertness using the same drug...???

A tired doctor can only kill one person at a time ... not quite the same as a dozey ( or dopey!) driver!

But I digress... the comment about open reporting culture.... are these guys smoking some special shisha not available in DXB....:ugh:?

AAR has almost single handedly sent the Flight safety department and reporting culture back thirty years with some of the recent decisions ..

And lastly....

Oh - another thing for EK drivers - I didnt pick this up my self but I see that they have removed the equivalency for a wet runway which is grooved to not be dry ..any more... at least on the B777? ..Is the Bus the same??

So when did the policy change... maybe I have been slack and missed something...?


If I read it right 'wet' now becomes 'slippery wet' and from what I can work out has the potential to reduce MTOW by a significant amount if you are carrying any sort of braking/reverse/spoiler MEL.... is this deliberate risk management to the conservative side, a typo , or just another badly proofed communique??

Given we are increasing the MTOWs and other things to manipulate fees/charges/payload and stuff this latest missive seems to be in the wrong direction...

...and has anyone decided to tell the airport operators that they may as well go fill in the grooves, or not put them in new strips - 'cos as far as we are concerned they dont make any difference?

If I have missed something here then I am really keen to be educated by anyone with more IQ ..??

Braking/ perf expert, any one any one .... bueller??

woodja ( or is it ;whinja?)

[411A]

Just because they are legal is no recommendation to me. It may satisfy the insurance companies, until there is a prang and then watch them squeal.

Hull premiums will simply be increased for carriers like EK if an expensive prang happens, and life will go on.
EK pilots need to understand that...in the pilot availability market of today, experienced Commanders and First Officers are available for employment today, and I am quite sure that the HR department at EK has a stack eight feet high.
This of course in no way mitigates some of the problems that EK pilots have with their company now, however...the company can rightly say...if you don't like it, leave.
The ONLY way that pilots will get the companies attention is for flights to be delayed (or cancelled) on a regular basis, for lack of crew members...and this is unlikely to happen due to the aforementioned seriously large stack of applications on file.
Short of trainers, you say?
The company will simply make some up, or have the ability of hiring from outside.
In either case, the present EK pilots are dealing from a position of weakness, and quite frankly I suspect that the company simply does not care.
Thinking of saying goodbye to EK going to Korean possibly?
Keep in mind that Korean has their very own set of rather large problems...the phrase 'frying pan to fire' applies, without a doubt.

[bluewater]

Dear all
As a suggestion to substantiate claims from “both parties” (Emirates pilots and Emirates management), a suggestion to the [email protected] would be to establish a simple poll on his/another site to establish the credibility of his allegation i.e. fatigue, monthly hours, open reporting culture, support, etc. Heck, polls can even be created online by an amateur. Unsure sure how this would work as pilots would have to be identified as genuine EMIRATES PILOTS but assume most would want to remain anonymous. Certainly can’t be that complex and then we will have a clearer picture of this on going debate.
Sincerely yours
Bluewater:ok:

[Saltaire]

Of course they get a commercial DSVP to respond. Not even the appropriate department can refute the claims. Where is flight ops?

What an outrageous LIE that Emirates is in any way a world leader in pilot fatigue and alertness. They have been pushing the flight duty and fatigue limits for years. PERIOD ! Irregular patterns and a mix of day and night pairings are the norm with minimum days off. ( Airbus anyway ) Just an extension of the lack of worker rights in the UAE and EK take full advantage. AAR is a completely out of his league and is a liability to the airline.

[lpokijuhyt]

Syriana (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0365737/) (2005)
Bryan Woodman (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000354/): What are they thinking? They're thinking that it's running out. It's running out... and ninety percent of what's left is in the Middle East. This is a fight to the death.

Bryan Woodman (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000354/): But what do you need a financial advisor for? Twenty years ago you had the highest Gross National Product in the world, now you're tied with Albania. Your second largest export is secondhand goods, closely followed by dates which you're losing five cents a pound on... You know what the business community thinks of you? They think that a hundred years ago you were living in tents out here in the desert chopping each other's heads off and that's where you'll be in another hundred years, so on behalf of my firm I accept your offer.

[CanadaRocks]

If you're not fit, give yourself an extra day off and call in sick.

[fullforward]

Stop waisting your time and just read what 411a properly (as usual) wrote above:


" Hull premiums will simply be increased for carriers like EK if an expensive prang happens, and life will go on.
EK pilots need to understand that...in the pilot availability market of today, experienced Commanders and First Officers are available for employment today, and I am quite sure that the HR department at EK has a stack eight feet high.
This of course in no way mitigates some of the problems that EK pilots have with their company now, however...the company can rightly say...if you don't like it, leave.
The ONLY way that pilots will get the companies attention is for flights to be delayed (or cancelled) on a regular basis, for lack of crew members...and this is unlikely to happen due to the aforementioned seriously large stack of applications on file.
Short of trainers, you say?
The company will simply make some up, or have the ability of hiring from outside.
In either case, the present EK pilots are dealing from a position of weakness, and quite frankly I suspect that the company simply does not care.
Thinking of saying goodbye to EK going to Korean possibly?
Keep in mind that Korean has their very own set of rather large problems...the phrase 'frying pan to fire' applies, without a doubt.""


Reality check, boys! Stop this useless crying and bashing...
Or have the balls to be collectively sick from time to time.
It would be very interesting to see the management watching all that parked aircraft, and then realizing they should treat the "drivers" better.

But this is very unlikely will ever happen. It's much easier to just cry.:(

[PorkKnuckle]

until there is a prang and then watch them squeal.

Hull premiums will simply be increased for carriers like EK if an expensive prang happens, and life will go on.

Never a truer word spoken.

Well no doubt the hull insurance would go up and they'd "merely" absorb this in the usual style. But the squealing would be loud, prolonged and second in noteworthiness only to the blood-letting.

Whilst third-world services would barely feel a ripple, the loss of face in first world countries would be massive. Financially the alrline would ride it out, without a doubt, but the shockwaves and beheadings would make the jo'burg events pale into insignificance. Change would be forced upon them.

Statistically, it seems to me most likely an "event" would take place on a non-ULR flight and in a third world FIR and therefore away from the worst of the negative press. I bet the Sun-Herald would be on it though.

[sanddancer]

If an EK aircraft ever (god forbid) crashes - where do you think the blame will be apportioned? EK will, as most companies endeavour to do post crash, do the teflon management act and find some way of blaming the crew.

Fatigue in EK is endemic - the only upside is that your life expectancy will probably match the provident fund when you leave!

I escaped EK long ago and don't regret jumping - my, very irregular, glances at the ME forum just serve to reinforce the validity of my decision to leave.

[CAVnotOK]

Once again, I urge all of you to give yourselves a chance of recovery. Just take a break from one little duty in November.

Cav.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Todays Flight Intl has a quote from Emirates saying 2000-3000 Cabin Crew had been given unpaid leave as they had got the numbers wrong even before the economic downturn. Yikes !:\ :\

[jumbo1]

Well they wouldn't admit that large numbers had resigned would they?
:oh:

[CAVnotOK]

I think anytime throughout November will be quite sufficient, but they need to know this will happen every 2nd or 3rd month until we see improvements.

[drop kick]

and do not work on your day off:=

[IXNAT]

As was stated "leader in fatigue management around the world" or words to that affect. My a** Let's see what the FAA requirements are--NO EXCEPTIONS. Over eight hours flight time....augmented crew. Over 12 hours flight time....full augmented crew. Hell, even KAL is abiding by those guidelines. JET BLUE tried to trick F*** the system for a coast to coast and return, with no augmentation... result, FAA shut it down as soon as it found out about it. This is, of course, on a two manned type aircraft.

Flt 584 DXB-DAC-DXB flt time...9:35
Flt 544 DXB-MAA-DXB flt time...8:10
Flt 27 DXB-GLA Flt time...8:05
Flt 105 DXB-ATH-DXB flt time...9:46
Flt 123 DXB-IST-DXB flt time....8:55
Flt 332 DXB-MNL flt time....8:00(Etihad augments?)
Flt 783 DXB-LOS flt time....8:20

Just a sampling. This is just on the Boeing and there are others. What's on the 'bus? Not one of those flights would be approved by the FAA with the current non-augmentation. I am sure there are others. Leader in fatigue managment? No, I don't think so.

[Fred Garvin M.P.]

Ixnat, not that I'm arguing with you, but the FAA could give a s%^t about DXB - DAC - DXB. All they are concerned with is what is on their soil.

[airbus757]

Fred,

I don't think that was the point IXNAT was making.:= He is disputing the suggestion that EK are so called leaders in fatigue managment. By comparing what we do at EK to what others do, one can see that EK falls short. Unless the goal is to have higher fatigue.:E

7

[DC10]

IXNAT,

While I agree wholeheartedly that ALL flights longer that 8:00 should have augmented crew, your statement about the FAA requiring an augmented crew with NO EXCEPTIONS is not entirely true.

I flew the DC10 (US based) for several years and could never understand why a B767 or 777 flying a flight longer than 8:00 required an augmented crew but we would regularly fly 12 hour nonstops and even worse, two 6 hour flights back to back with no augmentation. The fact that we had a Flight Engineer on board was irrelevant in my opinion. Our career FEs were not pilots and held only FE certificates.

In the eyes of the FAA, the DC10 was a 3 pilot aircraft, therefore we could fly 12 hours with no augmentation. I see this situation of having a Capt, FO and FE in the cockpit for 12 hours as being no different to a 2 pilot crew flying together for 12 hours.

The new Notice Of Proposed Rulemaking regarding rest requirements by the FAA is proposing that time of day will be taken into account when determining how many hours pilots will be able to fly. If a flight sequence starts between 07:00 and 12:59, a 2 man crew will be legal to fly 9:00, however this is reduced to 7:00 for nighttime duty, making most of the examples you gave above legal per the new rules as long as they are daytime flights.

[snaproll3480]

Another article...

Pilots call for action on fatigue - The National Newspaper (http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091006/NATIONAL/710059812/1010)

[IXNAT]

C'mom girls. Try and read between the lines or the lines. What I was trying to convey was, first, EK says they are a world leader in fatigue management. By stating the examples above, I was trying to impart to those here that these pairings would not be allowed at a US carrier. I wasn't trying to say the FAA would impose their restrictions on a GCAA carrier, I mentioned that these were TWO manned aircrew aircraft restictions of the FAA (NOT a DC10, L1011, B747-200, A300, DC-8, B707, B727 etc.)

I was refering to the the FAA. I don't know what the regulations are in other parts of the world. Better or worse, I don't care. I am saying that the GCAA (re, EK) is not world leading when it comes to fatigue management and regulations.

And if you think that flying over nine hours on the backside of the clock doing a turnaround is a world leading safe way to go.....management would love to have you.

The above pairings were just some simple examples. Oh and BTW, you forget that time not in a control seat as the augmenting crew is not counted towards one's monthly/yearly max. Add that into the mix. I wonder if the captain on the ill fated MEL flight, with his 98+ hours had had any factoring in within those 98 hours. Then we would be talking way over 100 hours per month. Know of any carriers in the US (regulated by the FAA) that can allow aircrew not to count inflight time as part of their regulatory max's? And I am not talking deadhead, only operating crew.

So finally my point is, I am sure EK regulated by the GCAA is better than some of the truly third world regulators, but it is NOT world leading as they state. EK would be shut down yesterday if they tried to run under FAA regulations. (and for you simpletons that still don't understand what I am trying to say...yes I know that EK does not have to abide by any FAA duty time limits. BUT if fatigue issues continue to dog the airline, the FAA could rescind EK's Category One certification.)

[doubleu-anker]

Fitness.

Well you may think you are fit to operate before signing on for an 18 hour flight. Once the 18 hours are up you may or probably won't be fit to operate, certainly not to effectively handle some sort of emergency.

[flareflyer]

What are your impressions about the article published by "the national"
regarding "pilot fatigue"?
I am very surprised to read an article like this on a UAE newspaper...

Flare

[NG_Kaptain]

What did the National say? Khaleej and Gulf are a total waste of time.

[sandbox5]

More pilot fatigue in newspapers....Pilots call for tougher rules on fatigue (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2079534)