What could be next for the axe?

[Jabba_TG12]

From todays Times, referred to by Paxman in an interview with Mandelson last night (who swiftly feigned complete ignorance of its existance):

"Labour plans to halve Britain’s deficit with spending cuts and asset sales worth £75 billion without resorting to further tax rises, The Times has learnt.
Senior ministers are demanding that the pay of judges, top civil servants and NHS managers be frozen within weeks as the cuts package begins to bite. The remaining five million public sector workers can expect only minimal rises, union leaders have been warned privately. They had told the Prime Minister that protecting existing jobs was their chief priority.
Gordon Brown is looking at “a very big list” of defence procurement orders. He plans to shelve or scrap capital projects to pay for new equipment for troops in Afghanistan, seen as an overwhelming political priority.
Rows are raging within Government over the scale and timing of the cuts. Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, is resisting pressure to outline specific departmental budgets this autumn"




So.
Should we read anything into it? Capital Projects sounds quite ominous if it is still referring to defence, which I am making an assumption it is... :sad: Although what they're likely to be and how much if at all they will/could/should be trimmed back is moot.


Any thoughts anyone?

[Melchett01]

Gordon Brown and Noo Labour .... or is this just wishful thinking for my part?

[Jackonicko]

Quentin Davies was asked about this yesterday at Coningsby (who put on a very good show for the Press, and who were friendly and hospitable!).

QD pointed out that he had increased defence expenditure in aggregate (in both core programmes and UORs), that he had provided a 1.5% increase over inflation this year and last year, and intended to go on doing so.

"I won't go in for real terms overall defence cuts when we're committed to future programmes and when we're warfighting." He said.

That doesn't mean that everything is safe, Davies himself pointed out that he'd cancelled the MARS tanker which he judged wasn't "Have-to-Have" and he could clearly make painful choices if necessary.

But QD seems to really like the Forces, and to enjoy the company of servicemen. He's always proud of what you blokes do, and proud of what he manages to do to support you. He always seems to be on top of his brief and to know the detail of what's going on (not to the same extent that Drayson did, but more than any other Minister I've known). I don't like Labour, I've NEVER voted for them locally or nationally, and I don't trust MPs who cross the floor of the house, but Davies has won my grudging respect.

And I believe that while defence should brace itself for inevitable cuts, they may be lighter under Labour than under the Tories.

[charliegolf]

Indulge me:

What would be the effect, +ve or -ve, of a 2 year pay freeze in the public sector. All of it (I'm a teacher).

How much would the saving help? How bad will be the barmy backlash from unions? Serious question.

CG

[Jackonicko]

More to the point, since this is a huge problem, requiring painful medicine, what would the effect be of a 10% rise in the basic rate of tax, and a 20% rise in higher rate?

How quickly could the National Debt be paid off, assuming that public spending was capped at current levels, and that cuts were made with the aim of shifting spending to be more cost effective, and to lessen waste?

How much would be saved by means-testing child benefit, by means-testing free prescriptions, etc.?

[GPMG]

Don't means test Child benefit, means test the ability of people to have and care for children. Stop the jobless from rutting, scrap social security and let the useless starve.

**** em

< Goose steps off the parade ground

[mrmrsmith]

GPMG, lets hope you never end up on the dole yourself, think you would be in for a shock if you did, hope your in a trade that employable when you leave the apron strings of the forces. the grass in civvy st may look very green, but its a lot harder than you may think.:=

[Tiger_mate]

Means testing for anything is wide open to abuse, even more than the people seen leaping from their appropriately sticker adorned car, parked in the disabled car park.

If National debt is an issue, then how can we justify making massive payments of 'good will' to third world countries, and how can we continue to operate in worldwide conflict punching far above our station as we do. If there is no money in the bank then it is time to consolodate on what you have and reduce outgoings wherever possible. If that means getting the country back in its box and letting others either contribute more, or in the case of the third world, suffer, then I am afraid that this is the way it should be.

Selfless is an honourable attribute, but one that costs money. Money that clearly we do not presently have. The countries of the former Soviet Union that border Afghanistan could do much to block the drugs trade and therefore realistic closure of foreign occupation of that country. Yet so little it heard from these countries that most people could not even name them never mind know what they are doing about it.

With any luck Gordon took the hint from the USA that we are just another puppet for the President to play with when it suits on his recent visit. Fingers crossed the next Govt may reintroduce border controls, for whilst I do not consider myself even slightly racist, the fact is that too many jobs are being taken by overseas workers. That the TOS and salary for said workers is appalling is another debate.

[peppermint_jam]

I work, they pay me. I pay my taxes and the government distributes my taxes as it sees fit. In order to earn that pay cheque, I serve my country in the Armed Forces. As a requirement, I am required to pass a random urine test for drugs when CDT turn up at my station, with which I have no problem.

What I do have a problem with is the distribution of my taxes to people who don't have to pass a urine test. Shouldn't one have to pass a urine test to get a benefits cheque because I have to pass one to earn it for them?

Please understand that I have no problem with helping people who have fallen on hard times get back on their feet. I do on the other hand have a problem with helping someone sit on their lazy fat arse drinking beer and smoking dope.

Could you imagine how much money the government would save if people had to pass a urine test to get a benefit cheque?

[Mick Strigg]

By the look of another thread, the BBMF could be slimming down a bit!

I have to ask, how does the RAF justify a fully funded Flight, that is bigger than some Squadrons, that adds absolutely nothing to OC? Don't tell me that it's for recruiting, as the RAF has the Reds for this.

Isn't it time that the BBMF was a charity rather than coming out of the defence budget?

[Jumping_Jack]

:D love it......just take it a little further tho, deduct the amount those on benefit spend on booze and fags from their weekly handout, they are luxuries not neccesities.

[Finnpog]

And give them rations books not cash - with the ration stamps / vouchers only exchanged at named shops on presentation of a valid photo ID and make any fraud around these rations an offence with a 20+ stretch in the chokey.

[GPMG]

Thanks MrMrssmith for the advice but having left the forces and been in civvy st for a while I can vouch for the fact that you just have to apply yourself. work is out there, you just need to role your sleeves up and do some.

Working in IT is a very volatile career regarding pink slips, as soon as a company is in trouble it starts cutting IT staff.

I have been out of work 3 times in 11 years first was for 5 mths, then 1 mth and finally 3 mths. first time I worked on a building site to clear the bills, second time I had enough stashed away to last and the 3rd time I fitted bathrooms (nearly took it up as I was making £900 a week after tax, equipment).

If you are preparred to work then you will find work, if that means you return to school to learn a new trick then thats what it takes.

There are a lot of jobless people who don't want to work or wont do work that they see as being below them, in that case tough $hit, they make do without state handouts. Why the hell should the rest of us pay for lack of effort and gumption.

I am amazed though that I am not in prison or homeless, it seems that a lot of ex forces are destined to go that way.




By the way, the project that I am working on at the moment seems to be in the midst of some funding difficulty.....do you want your bathroom or kitchen updated?

[mrmrsmith]

GPMG, glad to here civvy street worked out for us, I too have been a civvy for sometime now 14+ years and tough wood never been out of work.
Though in the present climate people leaving the forces will find it harder to find work I think.

[Lima Juliet]

By the look of another thread, the BBMF could be slimming down a bit!

I have to ask, how does the RAF justify a fully funded Flight, that is bigger than some Squadrons, that adds absolutely nothing to OC? Don't tell me that it's for recruiting, as the RAF has the Reds for this.


Mate, the BBMF costs about 1/10th of the cost of the Reds - so they are in fact very good value for money. All the aircrew "volunteer" their weekends (except the OC who is on payroll) over the summer and are on the payroll of regular squadrons.

LJ:ok:

[The B Word]

Yup, bin the Reds before we even touch the BBMF...:ok:

[Dundiggin']

You are dead right matey!! Well said!! I reckon you should let the Daily Mail know 'cos they'll support it and that will shake the malingering gits to the core!! :mad: Bloody good idea.......and it would work. I wonder though what the fallout would be.....?

[VinRouge]

Ped Flight. If the mirror worshipers get through the next round of defence cuts I will eat my hat. My SD Hat.

[cornish-stormrider]

Peppermint Jam - how dare you have such a good and sensible idea. this is a rumour and japery forum....

I likes it though

ROTFLMFAOYSATT
(Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Fat Ass Off Yet Still Able To Type)

Ped Flight - it will never happen, they will cut more off the coal face and have a bigger tale with more Air officers. they always do.

[Jabba_TG12]

Well, we've all said it at some point; it seems that RUSI have not only woken upto it but publicly said it as well...

'Little Britain' will not be global military power, warns RUSI - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/6252411/Little-Britain-will-not-be-global-military-power-warns-RUSI.html)

[NutLoose]

Well can the F3 go round corners again?

[gashman]

So if the RAF loses the Reds,and/or BBMF, does the Army stop the changing of the guard and Queen's Birthday stuff? Both raise the profile of their respective service in a non-war fighting role, yet based on tradition. Strange how we have a thread like this running along side a thread on the Malta airshow complaining about the lack of an RAF flying display.

[airborne_artist]

So if the RAF loses the Reds,and/or BBMF, does the Army stop the changing of the guard and Queen's Birthday stuff?

In which case would the RN sell off HMS Victory - I doubt it...;)

[vecvechookattack]

Sadly, HMS Victory doesn't belong to the RN and so they couldn't sell it.

[Wrathmonk]

Vec

According to here (http://www.hms-victory.com/index.php?Itemid=190&id=142&option=com_content&task=view) :

HMS Victory remains a commissioned ship of the Royal Navy and the Flag Ship of the Second Sea Lord & Commander in Chief Naval Home Command.

Whilst I don't doubt your statement (;)) how does it work? Is it a PFI style agreement similar to certain flying training aircraft or has it been 'sold off' to the museum? Only curious because it would seem that BBMF may benefit from a similar arrangement if it meant it ringfenced them from the salami slicing machine!

[Wensleydale]

And 23 Sqn got the axe today... They paraded goodbye at Waddington this morning. The Sentry is back to just one Sqn (8) with part of 54(R) providing the OCU.

[sandiego89]

I could see the second carrier, PRINCE OF WALES, further "deferred" then quietly cut in a few years, leaving a one carrier program, and therefore less F-35B's. Not in favor of this, just my thoughts.

[Finnpog]

The Sunday Times article suggesting that 'Elicopter Bob is tightening the blue coloured public purses.

Cutbacks for both the Royal Navy and the RAF - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6860185.ece)

Here we go...

[Jabba_TG12]

Bugger, you got there first. Did you also see this one?

Treasury block more helicopters for Afghanistan - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6860183.ece)

HMT up to their old tricks again?

[GPMG]

Where did all of the other posts go on this thread?

[Melchett01]

The Sunday Times article suggesting that 'Elicopter Bob is tightening the blue coloured public purses.

Cutbacks for both the Royal Navy and the RAF - Times Online

Here we go...


Bugger, you got there first. Did you also see this one?

Treasury block more helicopters for Afghanistan - Times Online

HMT up to their old tricks again?

God it's depressing to be in defence at the moment. If it isn't the Taliban, then the politicians are trying to finish us off. I'd like to say focussing every penny on Afghanistan is short sighted, but the MOD and the politicans don't care. Churchill must be turning in his grave and thinking this is all looking uncannily similar to the 20s and 30s. And even when we do try to buy kit for Afghanistan, the bean counters say no. I'd love to let rip with a torrent of abuse, but quite frankly, they aren't worth the effort or the words.

Still, look on the bright side. We might be bankrupt, have no leadership, old and broken kit, but at least the various ministers will be able to head off into the sunset after the election on a nice pension after the overall bill for ministerial pensions went up 30% in one year. Bob's pension pot has somehow grown 62% in a year. Glad we managed to find the money for that.

What the hell has happened to the country and how did we sleep walk into the current mess?

[REMF holbeach]

God it's depressing to be in defence at the moment. If it isn't the Taliban, then the politicians are trying to finish us off.

I don't think you could really count being in P1 at BSW RAF Holbeach as being in defence.:rolleyes: Somehow I think you and your paper clips are safe from the Taliban.
They have bigger fish to fry.

I'd like to say focussing every penny on Afghanistan is short sighted

Why? Are you running short of Bic pens?

I'd love to let rip with a torrent of abuse

But you are too afraid to, even on an anonymous forum just in case it affects your pension or any future promotion.

What the hell has happened to the country and how did we sleep walk into the current mess?

Clearly they didn't listen to you and have let your stationary budget fall year on year.:hmm:

[cazatou]

Do I spot a TROLL?