Kingfisher floating like a Frog

[Sky Dancer]

Well we've heard about KF sinking and rising but neither have happened yet so here's the new thread..floating like a frog.Just heard that Lufthansa Technik have got a court order to have their inventory returned to them.The KF story is pretty amazing , you think they're going down but they stay afloat , then you think they're going up but then you hear that they're going down...would someone from the management give a clear picture on what's really happening....I guess they won't as I don't think even they have a clue..:ok:

[IndAir967]

Now that u ve started this thread let me give u an interesting info..
As a lot of u know kingfisher airlines has leased those planes from some companies in ireland, france etc..
it is said that that KFA almost owes a lot of money to those guys..
but the twist in this issue is .. who owns those companies ?;)

Also I doubt if KFA will ever see a strike by the employees like Jet and AI did ..

Even VJM knows sometimes what he is doing :cool:

[powerstall]

For now VJ's Force India F1 team is making news..... :confused:

[Wannabe Flyer]

Force 1 had some bagpiper in the tank so that worked good for them.

The frog that is now floating has some helium in the tank so that's making him float

Management is not speaking as they are on an austerity drive and not using their phones

Overall he was smacking his lips at wet leasing some of his grounded aircraft to AI. Guess that wont work now

:p

[Speed Freak]

even before the AI strike there was talk of air india leasing 330's from kingfisher.

[hpcock]

Overspend - this is the crux of KF's demise.

Capt's taking so much extra fuel, pilots taking FCOM's from flight decks, rostering being a complete shambles... I could go on & on & on - you get the point.

From management to ops staff - no one has a clue of how to run this airline. The amount of money spent to date is just amazing. I'm sure KF were not the only airline guilty of this crime, however, their problems seem to have floated to the surface for the whole world to see.

India clearly wasn't ready for the explosion it's aviation sector experienced some 4-5 years ago, & now operators are paying the price.

It's awful when you hear lessors issuing summons for aircraft to be returned to them, but KF has to formulate a plan & quickly to gain a bit more solvency & stability in a hostile & cut throat environment.

VJM has said it before & continues to think it - everything has a price & if that means selling KF - then he will. After all, his pockets are only so deep.

People in the upper echelons of this company need to take some responsibility, become more transparent & be a bit more accountable of the actions they take on behalf of the company.

Here was an airline with a vision for the future & a new vision for Indian aviation, & yet the same old **** which usually ends up souring most good ideas in India bit them so hard on the ass - & now it's starting to hurt.

I do hope KF pull away from this lull, for there are many good souls there who do want to make it right.

I don't fly for them any more, but I wish them luck. However, I think this time the writing's on the wall.

[WOW99]

:D
Thats pretty old news,ive heard that all in KFA get a month roster now,fuel is taken according to requirement ,tankering sectors kept in mind,infact KFA is doing roaring business,better than her conterparts.

[IndAir967]

Actually i agress with WOW99
KFA loads have picked up..
but theres still a long way to go before they are in the greens..

[Wannabe Flyer]

It seems all managements in India don't know how to run their companies as various threads are suggesting. What all are forgetting is that the Indian Aviation industry has seen one boom and this was their first bust. Hope all learn from it.

This is not unique to aviation but all industries in India are scrambling to learn from the last bust. After all most CFO's of these companies were still in High school when the last big bust (1987) happened. Since then they have only seen an upward curve.

In the same token most professionals (pilots included) have till date seen poaching, unreal rise in salaries, abundant job opportunities and job security like in no other place/time in the world. They are also going to have to learn to live with salary cuts, unemployment, repo of houses and cars and other such alien things in life. Remember India as a capitalistic economy is barely 18 years old and this is first big dip it has seen. Also for people who have seen falls in the past this was nothing as compared to outside India and the recovery has been swift compared to 10 years in the 30's and 8 years in the 80's.

Trust me the next one will hit all harder and that time around there will be more sob stories going around.

As an SLF as long as the equipment is well maintained and my travel is incident free, I am just lovin it!

[ZFT]

It seems all managements in India don't know how to run their companies as various threads are suggesting. What all are forgetting is that the Indian Aviation industry has seen one boom and this was their first bust. Hope all learn from it.

What India has yet to learn is that lessors, suppliers and the like need to be paid. There is no goodwill left and with KFA being by far the worst, they will be the 1st to reap what the have sown.

[Wannabe Flyer]

What India has yet to learn is that lessors, suppliers and the like need to be paid

They are paying with flight coupons which are trade able :ouch:

Now wonder what the exchange rate is?

[Capetonian]

They are paying with flight coupons which are tradeable

Now wonder what the exchange rate is?

Exchangeable for beer? Why didn't they stick to what they were good at?

[Doodles]

Just how many a/c does KFA have grounded now?

[43ba32ba8d8e1fe47cdc]

hard landings ahead...seems pilots are fleeing again:confused:

[guitarboy]

^^^ Pilots fleeing again!!!

does that mean Job Openings Soon?

or they have their Trainees still waiting in the line?

[johntrav69]

pilots taking FCOM's from flight decks

Sort it out boys and girls!!

[scorpilot]

The good

Monthly roster online...no calls!
Salary on the 7th..no later or earlier!
New routes on the anvil
Better utilisation of crew/fleet
A lot of new initiatives w.r.t to recurrent sim trg
@70 hrs....the best paymaster!..yes thats a fact

The bad

Training/Rostering coordination ...the less said the better!
Erstwhile Deccan employees still feel secondary...time shall heal that hopefully..

The Ugly

??


Cheers

[av8r76]

As an SLF as long as the equipment is well maintained and my travel is incident free, I am just lovin it!

I would advise you to use the search tool on your doo hicky and type sullenberger and watch a few interviews he has given... particularly his deposition to a Senate committee shortly after the 1549 incident.

Your so called love for incident free flying as an SLF will be short lived if you are asking pilots to worry more about impending job losses, salary cuts and repos (where did that come from?)

Tight monetary times mean serial MEL/CDL's compromising airworthiness.... lower salaries which are not justified by the astronomical cost of training will attract people with money to blow rather than a love and aptitude for flying.

To be the best you have to attract the best which in our context means the most able and competent.

Don't ask me to give my 100% in the FD when I have to worry if my kids are gonna get fed the next month. Sorry to burst Utopian safety bubble but how we are treated has a direct corelation to our performance and your so called inevitability of degrading TnC's will ensure that your happiness is short lived.

Aviation is not unique in its cyclical nature.... every industry.... I would say economy goes through its troughs and ridges and you pointing fingers only at aviation is naivete at its worst. Granted if the economy sneezes aviation catches a cold... hence the extent of fluctuations is more pronounced in air transport.

Salaries are direct corelation of supply and demand. If you recall the IT boom and exorbitant salaries IT professionals were pulling, and the subsequent bubble burst where the same 'sob stories' as you so apathetically put it were literally that..... sob stories. Once again not unique to pilots. We have seen severe downturns in the mid nineties.... and one right now. Our memories don't entirely comprise of rising sals/poaching etc etc but stark realities of having spent tens of thousands in training costs and nothing to show for it.

[SuperflyTNT]

My guess is, if it is true, im sure it would be on the news by now!

[Wannabe Flyer]

Don't ask me to give my 100% in the FD when I have to worry if my kids are gonna get fed the next month. Sorry to burst Utopian safety bubble but how we are treated has a direct corelation to our performance and your so called inevitability of degrading TnC's will ensure that your happiness is short lived.


I am assuming you still get paid a salary if you have a job and the airlines are not single handedly responsible for the downfall of the global economy. You and the aviation industry are not alone in this boat. But there are ups and downs and cycles and one has to learn to adapt to them.

Sorry about how you feel but in a chosen career if you are employed and drawing a salary then one needs to give 100%............anything less should be treated as pure dereliction especially if so many souls are counting on you.

So therefore if you don't give 100% then it means many more kids having to worry if their parents will come home in the event of an incident because there was one unhappy camper who was unable to separate his personal and his professional life.

As far as maintainence shortcuts same argument applies to the airlines. 100% or stop flying. Enforcement is another issue and financial that is another issue......... it never ends till at least someone gives 100%.

[HAWK21M]

Learn how to run an airline from Blue Dart/DHL.Maybe a Freight airline but
professional & take in to smallest details.
gradual expansion & professional approach.

The profits speak for itself.

The other airlines just need to get things organized.

[B772]

The axe is about to fall on Kingfisher. There is $36,500,000 outstanding to the Airports Authority of India.

[silent_scream]

@ B772
The axe is about to fall on Kingfisher. There is $36,500,000 outstanding to the Airports Authority of India.

Source of the information ?

[condorbaaz]

No salary this month. Heard that will be delayed to beyond 15 Aug.

No money n no credit

[uncle sam]

NEW DELHI: The GMR Group — which runs Delhi and Hyderabad airports — has decided to put 'king of good times' Vijay Mallya's Kingfisher on cash-and-carry from coming Sunday for payment defaults. Similarly fed up with chasing this airline for payment, state-run Airports Authority of India (AAI) has also asked Kingfisher to either clear the Rs 200-crore dues by the weekend or be on cash-and-carry from Monday. The GVK Group, which runs Mumbai and Bangalore airports, will take a call on what to do with Kingfisher next week.

"Kingfisher has a bank guarantee of Rs 100 crore and their dues are Rs 200 crore. They gave us dated cheques for Rs 50 crore but we were asked not to deposit them for lack of funds. On Monday, we issued a notice to the airline to clear all dues. If that is not done, we'll encash the bank guarantee and may put the airline on cash-and-carry," said a senior AAI official.

A GMR Group official said Mallya's carrier owes Delhi and Hyderabad about Rs 125 crore. "We do not face this problem with others airlines, at least with such regularity. LCCs like IndiGo and SpiceJet are prompt. Jet avails of cash discounts for paying on time, even before time. But Kingfisher is being put on cash-and-carry from August 15," said an official. The GVK Group is learnt to have dues of over Rs 100 crore.

Kingfisher spokespersonPrakash Mirpuri said: "We do not discuss supplier/partner relationships publically." The trouble with airport operators comes close on heels of similar action by oil PSUs for the same reason.

Last Tuesday, minister of state for petroleum Jitin Prasad told Parliament that Kingfisher's biggest jet fuel supplier HPCL had decided to put the airline on cash-and-carry. The airline buys about 1,300 kilolitres worth Rs 133 crore every month and had defaulted on payments. In a written reply, Prasad had said Kingfisher had a total outstanding of Rs 525.5 crore on March 31, 2010. This included Rs 249.7 crore due that was well within the agreed credit period and Rs 275.8 crore overdue outstanding.

The airline, which has about Rs 6,000 crore debt on its books, is also learnt to have sought a two-year moratorium on all loan repayment. Kingfisher has asked SBI Caps to restructure finances and is planning to raise $200 million via global depository receipts issue.

"Kingfisher is the single largest airline as Naresh Goyal's market leadership position comes by adding Jet and JetLite. We were told about the liquidity crunch Kingfisher is facing and did not force as we did not want to take the airline to the brink as that would affect connectivity. But now things have gone too far and sleeping over such dues could mean vigilance trouble for PSU AAI apart from cash flow issues for all airport operators," said a senior airport official.

Read more: KF put on cash-&-carry by GMR from Sunday - India Business - Business - The Times of India KF put on cash-&-carry by GMR from Sunday - India Business - Business - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/KF-put-on-cash-carry-by-GMR-from-Sunday-/articleshow/6289812.cms#ixzz0wMOtt9NX)

[condorbaaz]

Heard that Simulator for aug have been rescheduled.

No payment to cae

[jimmygill]

"Kingfisher is the single largest airline as Naresh Goyal's market leadership position comes by adding Jet and JetLite."

Thats is true but Naresh Goyal's is the single largest debtor to the National petroleum companies, I wonder why KF is being put to cash and carry and not Goyal?

[Sky Dancer]

Think you got your facts wrong.KF is the biggest debtor and from what I hear things are certainly not looking good over there.Bad times are just around the corner for KF:ok:

[jimmygill]

I got them from this guy. May be Mallya's antics don't find good takers in centre.


The Hindu : Business / Companies : Jet, Kingfisher owe oil PSUs over Rs. 1,774 crore (http://www.thehindu.com/business/companies/article566643.ece)

Private airlines Jet Airways and Kingfisher owe State-owned oil firms over Rs. 1,774 crore in unpaid jet fuel bills, Minister of State for Petroleum and Natural Gas Jitin Prasada said Thursday.

In a written reply to a question, he said Jet Airways had the highest outstanding of Rs. 960.15 crore as on June 30 towards State-owned fuel retailers while Kingfisher had Rs. 814.49 crore in unpaid bills.

Jet owes Rs. 830.40 crore to Indian Oil, Rs. 129.74 crore to Bharat Petroleum Corporation Limited (BPCL) and Rs. 0.01 crore to Hindustan Petroleum Corporation Limited (HPCL).

Kingfisher owes HPCL Rs. 536.04 crore, BPCL Rs. 248.55 crore and Indian Oil Corporation (IOC) Rs. 29.9 crore.

In all, the six private airlines in the country owe Rs. 1,887.82 crore to the oil companies. Outstanding of Spicejet (Rs. 74.5 crore), Go Air (Rs. 18.8 crore), Indigo (Rs. 0.6 crore) and Paramount Airways (Rs. 19.28 crore) is marginal compared to what the giants Jet and Kingfisher owe to the oil firms.

Mr. Prasada said in case of default in payment, the airlines are put on ‘cash-and-carry’ mode and interest is recovered on all overdue payments.

“Oil marketing companies also encash bank guarantee and post dated cheques for recovery of their outstanding dues,” he said.

HPCL, he said, has put Kingfisher Airlines on cash-and-carry mode since July 1 while BPCL has filed a winding up petition in the Mumbai High Court against the Vijay Mallya-owned company.

“Recovery is being made by BPCL in line with consent terms between BPCL and Kingfisher Airlines before the court in November 2009 whereby the entire dues are to be cleared by November 2010,” he added.

Indian Oil Seems to be most generous.

[strella]

condorbaaz, has your salary come in yet. In Delhi, its sad to see so many KF aircraft grounded.

The way things are headed, doesn't look like a good scenario for KF.

A few friends I have in KF are quite insecure about their future. For everyones sake, hope things turn out fine, for an otherwise good airline( from pax point of view).

[Wannabe Flyer]

Engine fault grounds 9 Kingfisher jets - Airlines / Aviation - Transportation - News By Industry - News - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/Engine-fault-grounds-9-Kingfisher-jets/articleshow/6322175.cms)

[condorbaaz]

Strella: yes finally on the night of 10th.

But Writing on the wall..

Pack up your tents, get ready to leave..

Find new Jobs

[silent_scream]

I hear a 3 % increase in salary was announced yesterday.
Any one able to confirm ?

And is the increase for Pilots or all employees ?

[chairwrecker]

read somewhere (yahoonews i think) that KF paid Rs20 crore to get their cash and carry status lifted, is that true?

[silent_scream]

@StinkyMonkey, I do not know what your predictions are based upon, but as far as the statistics are concerned, Kingfisher has about 20 Percent of the market share along with around 75 - 80 % capacity utilization as per DGCA statistics since the summer began. So the passenger are there. The aircraft are flying (Except for 9, as in the posts above). And the miles are ticking. So where exactly are things going wrong ? I do not particularly understand the complete economics of an Airline. But I know that Kingfisher has been offering IFE + Meals at Low cost fares for a couple years now. Is that the reason things are so bad ? Or am I missing something ? All views invited.

[condorbaaz]

bad business model
No full time CEO
Not paying dues to vendors on time to inflate income before tax etc.

Basically no Financial ethics

Heard from grapevine in other carriers that KF is going to fold anytime now.

But That would be anywhere else in the world except "Here"

[airjet]

sometimes it cost more to shut down than it cost to slog on

[condorbaaz]

Pilots got a 1-3% monthly hike.
coz,,,,,
All management wantes a 50 Grand hike.

[airjet]

pilots got 3% and ground staff 10%, Kingfisher is "re-structuring" and looking to raise 5000 crore indoing so. VJ once said all he needs to do is increase the beer price by 5 inr`s and KFA `s debt would disappear.;)

[silent_scream]

@condorbaaz and airjet,

Do you have something to comment upon the previous post I made on this thread (Post # 37) ?

[condorbaaz]

They seem to have got a breather from Banks and Lenders for 2 years..
Provided pilots don't leave in droves.

A colleague says that the indian pilots now have a retention or a service bonus if they have served for 5 yrs as commander.

[airjet]

well it seems my statement awhile back about them not ever robbing any ex-pat was wrong, i had served my 20 weeks and am due six weeks leave, now this would have brought me to the day when my "loyalty bonus" is due. just got word that they will not pay me either leave or bonus:=:confused: eventhough they(the HR dept) wrote a email saying that they would.
bad scene, however i have appealed to upper management so lets see.

[jimmygill]

VJ once said all he needs to do is increase the beer price by 5 inr`s and KFA `s debt would disappear.

The same guy once said the production cost of a bottle of beer is INR 5. Rest all is distribution and excise, and a little profit.

There are so many brands of beer looking to enter the market, an increase in INR 5 may lead the beer brand loose market, let alone saving the KFA from debt.. besides attracting attention from Monopolized and Restrictive Trade Practices Commision.

[WOW99]

:D:D:D
latest news on economic times SANJAY AGGARWAL APPOINTED AS NEW CEO OF KINGFISHER:ok:[/url]

[silent_scream]

Although the questions I had asked in Post #37 were never quite answered, but one of the Answers sited the CEO as a missing link.

Now since a CEO is in Place, where do we see thing's going ?

Besides, I hear the then CEO of Spice Jet did quite good for the Airline. If that was the case, Jumping onto a Sinking Ship (As every one here mention's).

Should we call it a dare display of Heroics, Or plain understanding of what's wrong with Kingfisher Model ?

[condorbaaz]

Silent scream

The COO coming on board is a mix of many reasons
1. he was fired from spice by the new owners
2. All entities have stated that the lack of a CEO will affect any financing.
3. The current lot of leadership is mainly sycophants who are looking for quick personal gains rather than the good of airline. In five years, the downsizing company has renamed and promoted all the "department head" to "General Manager" to "Additional Vice president" to "Vice President" to "Executive Vice President". No amount of Nomenclature change can change the efficiency of persons involved.VJM realized this and knew a change was required at the top without upsetting the investors.

4.
As regards Post 37.

In almost all airlines, Cabin Crew are Operational Personnel, who will also take care of some Pax Service. IN KF CC are "Guest Service Personnel" who are deputed for Operations.

This has led to a distortion in which anything and everything a "Guest wants" must be provided etc. This as per VJM.

However, the section heads, VPs et al. get paid a bonus as a %age of costs being cut and hence the large scale reduction in service.

If the outflow is more than input, then a company will make loss.

In KF the passenger is called a Guest and treated like a guest in Mallayas Home, as per the welcome video in the ac.
What he gets is more than what he pays and hence the company makes a loss.
hope tis answers you else pm me.

It is as simple as that.

[silent_scream]

@condorbaaz, Thanks for your time and effort in trying to explain things.

So since the present staff is not particularly competent, and VJM knows about it, So the media news about 300 layoff's might include some Management Level players ?

So I guess it is as simple as that. Customer pay's less, Get's More. Management makes the Money,
And in return, KF Investor's get burnt.

I am mostly interested in the KF present because looking at the way their Pilots are leaving, there might be some place for us freshers.

[airjet]

just finished flying for them for 3 years, its simple really, the HR department is dishonest, you can`t believe a thing they say even in writing, Mallya just keeps pressuring the UB group to pour more and more money into the hole, the banks seem to think once UB is involved they will be fine but the day is fast approaching when UBwill have had enough , when that happenings the banks will be scrambling to get out, how can an airline which had 87 planes and now has less than 55 ever hope to recoup the losses they made when they had 87, plus they have lost over 400 million this year alone,:eek: ---would you invest in them??

[condorbaaz]

silent scream...

Final nail in the coffin. All promoters shares are pledged to the banks. The banks now call the shot and not the mgmt of KF as per

http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/markets/article2201478.ece%3Fhomepage%3Dtrue&rct=j&sa=X&ei=u2IZTp6hBYyzrAfZtZXQAQ&ved=0CGIQ-AsoADAC&q=kingfisher+news&usg=AFQjCNFiaWB2Q4P5V2WGF_d2eEnw4cWSOA

[Sky Dancer]

Well boys hate to tell you this but " I told you so ! ".For all those of you who took my advice and bailed out in time , good for you.For all those of you who still want to sit in that sinking ship and still hope to sail again , dream on.Jump when you have the chance.The present scenario was there on the wall , very few saw it.My advice to my brother aviators , I've been around long enough and I know the business pretty well.Be careful who you work for , always choose the right company , look out for guys like Capt.Gopinath , Dr. Mallya , Datok Tony Fernandes et al.There's a lot of hype about these guys and they have fancy titles but on the inside they are just full of **** , looking to make a quick buck at your expense.Emirates , SIA , Qatar are the places you wanna be , Etihad once Mr.Hogan has left.Best of luck to all of you comrades:ok: