Best plane for mecir

[MCKES]

I am currently doing CPL in aircraft which Tas between 145-180kts and am looking at starting to integrate my mecir towards the end of my cpl training. What I would like to know is in your opinions is it worth training in something such as a Baron or C310. As most other twins be76, seneca, tas at the same or less than what I am already flying. I would like to train in something that will benefit me later on, though i have heard different opinions such as just train in whatever is cheapest.
Just want to know what people have done in the past.
Cheers:ok:

[AussieNick]

Does it has 2 engines? is it IFR endorsed? then use it.

i'd honestly find the cheaper option, because when you finally go looking for that first job, the more money you have in your back pocket to live off the better

[mingalababya]

For the MECIR, I'd be looking at the type of gear it has on board, rather than the aircraft type itself. eg, whether it has a HSI, RMI and the type of GPS box it uses if you're adding RNAV approaches to your rating.

[the air up there]

The aircraft you use doesn't have to be the fastest aircraft out there. And don't just go for the cheapest aircraft either. Your paying for a licence with which you are going to trust your own and passengers lives. As well as your career.

There is no immediate advantage in doing the rating in a baron or 310 just to get time in those types. Your first job will be in a C200 series or an airvan most likely. Any advantage will be 2 maybe 3 years down the track when you move into twins, and most companies will provide you with an endorsement anyway.

If you can afford it though, and really want to do it in a baron then I personally don't think you can go past JAS at port macquarie in NSW. There are a couple of other schools that do them in barons or 310s and reading through other threads on here will help you locate those companies with good reps in the industry.

[frigatebird]

What people have done in the past.
Initial twin endorsement was on a Baron, which was flown VFR, Special VFR, and private positioning NVFR for a few years before the I Rating was done. The initial NVFR Twin was converted from the Single in an old Apache. Then later the MECIR was done in an Aztec while on leave. Hardly ever flew an Aztec again as I was still on the Baron. Had over 2000 on singles before the Twins, and about 4000 VFR before the I Rating.
Realise things have changed now, with loans taken out or sponsored, money up front to get the rating with glass and GPS Approach experience etc, just to get started. But with a bare licence and low time, some things never change. If you have the money, do it in an aircraft you like, and think you will use later, and get familiar with it, and build time. Otherwise, together with the previous good advice from the other posters, my other suggestion was do it cheaply (but thoroughly) in whats available, and save cash for the inevitable lean times while cracking that first "being in the right place at the right time" experience. It may be in the right seat of a turbine multi-crew, so the type you trained on wont matter anyway.

[The Green Goblin]

Its nice having the RMI and HSI however many of the IFR charter machines you will use have a fixed card ADF and a standard DG.

As much as using all the fruit for your rating is nice, I would suggest becoming proficient with the basic instruments first.

My motto is use the cheapest slowest multi engine aircraft you can, get the rating then go out and learn how to fly IFR in the real world. A MECIR is just like a bare CPL, it's a licence to learn and you are signed off when you are considered safe to do so.

Duchess, Partenavia or a twin commanche/seminole are a pretty good start.

I did mine in a Duchess when I had 1000 hours.

[the air up there]

A MECIR is just like a bare CPL, it's a licence to learn and you are signed off when you are considered safe to do so.


Probably the best quote and advice to newbies I have read on pprune.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I can't see that MECIR training has much to do with cruise TAS. It's mostly about Departures, Arrivals, Sector Entries, Holding Patterns and Approaches - mostly flown at 120 kts or less.

I did my MECIR in a Baron but have done several renewals in a Duchess - the latter being a perfectly good platform for initial MECIR training.

Dr :8

[j3pipercub]

I don't agree with having RMIs and HSIs. I did my initial in a clapped out old PA30, with 1 ndb fixed card and 1 ils/vor. No gps no dme. That aeroplane and instructor taught me a huge amount about flying and when it came time to getting a HSI and RMI it was fantastic, and a breeze to use as I thought a dme was a flash bit of gear!!.

I have heard some guys doing their stuff on twins with all the bells and whistles and then struggling for a bit when they have DG's and fixed cards.

j3

[Horatio Leafblower]

Agree with the luddites & minimalists out there

Did much of my CIR on Duchess for the last x hours. She had all the bells and whistles including RMI and HSI.

...when I got my first IFR job I was struggling to go back to all the steam driven stuff, and my first renewal (3 years after initial issue) became a fairly drawn-out affair as I really needed to be re-taught the basics.

Speed has nothing to do with it - you are just burning more money and making more noise!

Any IFR Cri-cri out there? :}

[Complete]

I agree with J3, pretty much be guaranteed your first IFR charter job out west the aircraft will not have RMI's or HSI's. May as well learn on the fixed card ADF's and DI's as it will make your life a lot easier to start with.

[Aerozepplin]

From my limited experience I'd say some experience with just a DI and fixed card ADF would be valuable.
I only used a fixed card during initial sim sessions as all our aircraft had an RMI, and I'm pretty sure I'd struggle initially if flying a more basic machine. From what I hear (from this forum mainly) that IF job in a Aztec or the like would most likely be with the basic instruments.

[777WakeTurbz]

I did mine in a Baron and imho if you do it in a twin with performance like that you also have to learn to observe your speed limitations etc. Which in a P68 or Seneca etc you will have trouble breaking even if your not paying attention.

The HSI/RMIs etc are all very handy but if you go learning with them and end up flying an aircraft with just the bare minimum equipment then you may be at a disadvantage, and in bad weather conditions down to the minimas that may be the difference between a safe approach and arrival and a missed approach or worse.
But of course any good school doing MECIR training should cover all this and make sure that no matter what equipment you have or aircraft that you are flying, that you are capable of conducting approaches and ops under the IFR safely.

My 2cents ;)

[Capt Fathom]

For someone (MCKES) who has not completed their CPL yet, I don't think I would be too concerned with getting experience with the advanced, automated stuff for an Instrument Rating! Probably getting that now in their Cirrus!

It won't be an employment option just yet!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I'd much prefer paying a little extra for the safety of a Baron or a 310 rather than a Duchess/Seminhole or Tin Can any day of the week

I would like to see a more detailed explanation of that statement!

I have done ME IR training/renewals in Apache, Aztec, Duchess, C310, Baron and C402 and can't say I felt more or less safe in any of them.

For me the biggest safety issue when ME or IR training is the bod sitting in the right hand seat. I am very particular about who that is, but I have never had to work in a GA or RPT situation where I had little or no choice about who I flew with in that sort of situation.

Dr :8

[snoop doggy dog]

AussieNick had got in in one..... Do it in the cheapest you can :ok:

Always good to have the cash in your sky rocket MCKES ;)

[MCKES]

Thanks very much for all of your replies some valid points in all of them. I will take everything into consideration when looking. I agree that there is no benefit short term no benefit really of even doing an mecir with a bare commercial. But as some said later on it may be beneficial. I originally was going to stop at commercial and look for work from there, though seeing job adds usually ask for renewals getting the rating initially even though i wont be using it much may be a benefit.
Cheers:ok:

[the air up there]

Do not go do a rating somewhere just because it is cheaper. I've seen people take the cheap option, then when they get somewhere else and their shortcomings are found out they have realised they have been short changed.

That is why I mentioned JAS, can't go wrong there. Although there are plenty of others that are really good to. I hear Bob Harris has a good rep, as well as flying the duchess to keep cost down I think.

Just my 2 bobs worth.

[FL170]

Hi Mckes,

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it already however I saw an ad in this weeks Australian for National Aerospace Training.

I don't endorse their training nor do I know anything about them but their course looked pretty good. Basically you get a MECIR with a C310 and PA31 rating, 30 hours ME ICUS and 30 hours C210 ICUS. The ICUS time is done with Directair up in Darwin, sounds to me like a very good opportunity to get your foot in the door.

I think they have 20% off the course if you do it in October as well :ok:

[777WakeTurbz]

I havnt heard very good reports of the ICUS program in Darwin with Directair. Its apparently moving extremely slow. Guys only getting a few of hours ICUS a week in the C210 and being stuck waiting because they paid up front... :ouch:

[The Green Goblin]

Agree with 777 on the ICUS issue. (you'll be waiting a long time and expected to pitch in with the work at the office under the term 'commercial experience')

You've been warned!

I don't agree with flying a Baron for speed limitations though, that is where your ICUS/line training comes in. You will be pretty comfortable with any twin after 30-50 hours on the line. I went from a duchess to cabin twin with no problems whatsoever along with everyone else at the company.

In fact a PA31/402 type twin is easier to fly than a smaller trainer. Provided you understand and nurture the engines you will have no problems.

[Mr. Hat]

If you are intending to go into g.a. I'd be steering clear of aircraft that have all the bells and whistles (HSI GPS RMI). I'd be opting for the cheapest aeroplane with the most experienced instructor. The person sitting next to you is 1 million times more important than the aeroplane that you choose when it comes to learning.

[MCKES]

Yes I agree about the instructor sitting next to you thankfully I am surrounding by a wealth of experience when it comes to my instructors.