Air India pilots on strike.

[PT6A]

Local newse reporting that 400 snr Air India Captains are to go on strike and it could start causing flight problems from today.

There is talk of a 70% reduction in allowances.


PT6A

[Schumi - Red Baron]

Two Air India flights were today cancelled due to an agitation called by a section of the national airlines' pilots to protest the up to 50 per cent reduction in their productivity-linked incentives (PLIs).
Air India's flights to Mumbai and Kabul were cancelled this morning as the pilots did not report for duty, airline officials said.


Air India pilots begin agitation, 2 flights cancelled- Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/Air-India-pilots-begin-agitation-2-flights-cancelled/H1-Article1-458185.aspx)

[Wannabe Flyer]

400 pilots belonging to the "management" cadre are going on sick leave. They cannot go on strike as they are not part of the union and part of the management (blue collar vs white collar argument). They are hoping the other 800 pilots of the union join the strike to cripple the airline so as to fight back against the "taliban" like decision of the management. Union has not commented. Salary cuts seem to be in the range of 3 lakhs per pilot. Other 800 are still flying as their salary has not been cut (hey whatever happened to the famous lets stick together solidarity? Not from your pocket eh!)

So lets see the savings p/m = 300,000 x 400 = 12 crs per month.

Assuming there are 800 + 400 pilots and the management wants to save this 12 crs per month then split it between all 1200.

This would add upto 1 lakh less per month per pilot or in other words a 25% cut vs a 70%.

Now lets expand it over all the 30,000 employees.......... = 4,000 p/m per employee (naturally an even amount is unrealistic and it would be on some grading to soften blow).

I wonder why not this route to save about 144 crs a year to start with. A small drop but nevertheless a drop.

Oh I forgot............UNIONS :oh:..........so many of them.

Makes sense much like our politicians in India everybody feels they are right and don't care about thier neighbors or their co workers.

For the moment the pilots are too stressed dealing with the paycuts from 4 lakhs to 1.25 lakhs to fly passengers. Hope they all feel well soon as there seems to be a rash of "flew" in this particular section :{

[gottofly]

One article on the net says that some pilots have received only Rs.6000/ as sal??????.... and no incentives for the last 2 months...

[NG ExPat]

Should this Job Action go further, you can just about bet the house, that no Ex Pat will cross any picket lines!!

[alouette3]

Wannabe,

You are either a management shill or an ass.Probably both. Remember the salaries were negotiated by the unions and management. Management agreed to everything in there. Management flew the airline into the ground. Now tough times are here and they want to cut the salaries of pilots?:mad: How about being principaled and taking a salary of Rs 1/- until things improve? After all, all these years the suits in management have made plenty of money and it is probably tucked away someshere safe.
As for the management pilots wanting the union pilots join the strike.LOL.:=
Would these fine gentlemen agree to do the same if the roles were reversed? Anybody? Thought not.
I hope all this is a lesson to the future generation. Live life frugally if you work for an airline.Who knows when management(not the union ,mind you) will pull the rug from under you. And ,hope wannabe remains a wannabe. You don't want to be in the same aircraft as he is in.
Alt3.

[weido_salt]

Egos, egos, egos to the fore, once again.

The sooner these clowns realise the world doesn't owe them a living, the better off the travelling public will be.

"you can just about bet the house, that no Ex Pat will cross any picket lines!!"

Why would that be? Why would an expat, who will be on a short term contract, want to support people who cant wait to see the back of them? As an expat would say, it would be the same as "turkeys voting for Christmas", or a sheep voting for Eid.

"For the moment the pilots are too stressed dealing with the paycuts...."

Stress? This is very serious indeed. No they should not be flying if that is the case and before they go back flying, (presuming anyone wants them, if they bring down AI) they should be forced to undergo a long period of stress management counselling.

I see the Indian PM has just returned from overseas. Who flew him around if it wasn't "management" pilots from A I? Scabs? :mad:

P.S., any pilot calling in sick should be rushed immediately to an isolation ward at the local state run hospital, until given the all clear. A.I., is state owned I presume. We cant be too careful when dealing with H1N1.

[rdr]

Here we go again.
Lets not waste time.......................
1.BLAME THE EXPATS

[Wannabe Flyer]

Alt3

Just an SLF who is struggling to ensure survivial in business and is scratching his head to see how these big babies are crying away with a pay cut. I have unfortunately had the displeasure of being laid off in the past and this time around having to do the hard task of telling someone to go home as we have no business left. (part of the my business deals with airlines!!!!). Trust me both sides are not pleasent to be on.

Management of AI are big asses not small ones. But so are the politicians in this country who run these airlines. I am not condoning the actions but actually am a strong proponent that this embarressment of an air line should be left to falter and go (30,000 jobs will go with that one). However all 30,000 are part and parcel of the problem and not a select few. It is after all a government job and people joined it much like the rush to join other government jobs because of perks, security, $$$$ and other such things. A strong message needs to be conveyed by tax payers that they do not want their money being pumped into a black hole.

I am also trying to draw a resemblence with Jet strike not so long ago.

The fundamental difference is that with Jet I have a choice to buy their stock or not and my hard work is not subsidizing them. With AI I have no choice as my tax money is going down this hole and then to see that people are demanding 4 lakhs as salary while in the same token I am laying of people earning 10,000 a month who are servicing the same industry.

I am sure the pilots also tucked away some of the good money they made over the past few years. It is only prudent financial sense. I think it is easier to tuck away at 4 lakhs a month than at 4000!

Live frugally in the future you say, well in my opinion be realistic and deal with the ups and downs of life and the facts of life. This slowdown is not endemic to pilots only. Millions are struggling and are making cutbacks. There are so many silent stories.

Unions overall and this is only my opinion take a very one sided approach and especially in a a country like India are led by people with vested interests. Management when run by politicians as in NACIL case is the same wolf in sheeps clothing.

Alt3 don't worry if your CRm is good and I can learn something from you I would never hesitate flying in the same aircraft as you. Such is life.

[TopTup]

Was chatting to a colleague last night about this. He is still at AI as a contract pilot. I am interested to find some unbiassed FACTS from what rumour and gossip he passed on to me. I DO NOT state anything that I have written is pure fact. Hence I ask for your advice to clarify things.

All figures and dates are speculative at best! I am seeking your input to correct me where I am (will be) wrong.

AI break the Union some years ago by telling the Cmdrs after 6 months (?) as a Cmdr you get an extra $2k USD per month by gaining a "Managment or Executive" title. That salary top up is called or camouflaged as a "productivity bonus" / allowance.

As I saw on the AI pilot list, nearly EVERY Cmdr is a manager of something it seemed. (?)

New CMD comes in, ruthlessly lowering moral as quick as possible and says he is doing it to save costs (eg duty travel in coach / economy class), etc. He sees all these management pilots and executive pilots getting a base salary of XX and a "productivity bonus" of YY. He says.... "WHAT productivity!? We are in debt $? BILLIONS of USD and they are getting PRODUCTIVITY BONUSES?!" (One may be foregiven for seeing his point?) So, he cuts the productivity bonus since (obviously) no productivity can be shown.

So, sell your soul for some money at the cost of a stable, strong and supportive union (if THAT is possible with the many, many self interest bodies at AI / NACIL). Reap the rewards for a few good years. Times change, economics and the world aviation inidustry changes, a ruthless man without conscience takes the reins and the soul that was sold is now all paid up and he takes advantage of this.

And now people are crying bloody murder.

Now, I may be (in fact I am sure I am) wrong in facts and figures as I am admittedly passing on information from an unreliable source who got his information from rumour and gossip.

Someone who can give an unbiassed REAL account of the history of the union breaking, productivity bonuses, management/exec titles and what has transpired then I [and others] would be most interested.

[alouette3]

Wannabe,

For the first time, I see your point of view. I wish you had been this clear earlier.I just thought you were pure managementtrying union-busting. I apologize for my earlier comments. I have misjudged you. Just to clarify, I am still pro union. However, I do believe management, when dealing with union contracts in good days must include so called hardship clauses. Verifiable financial troubles (not just because CMD says so but verified by accountants on both sides) pay and bonus cuts/freeze first for the management,followed by the worker bees. Systematic pay freezes and lay offs/furloughs when times are tough with sytematic recalls with improving times. All this has been done before and has worked. No reason why it can't work in India.
As for AI,I am not a fan of that airline. They deserve to go under.All my concern is for the hundreds of pilots who will be laid off if that happens.
As for the "management " pilots. They threw in their lot with the management and need to pay their dues now.Fire the lot of them I say.Can't be in two boats at the same time and hope to survive.
Again, apologies for a harsh post. I am glad pprune allows us to debate and discuss in a civil fashion.
Alt3

[Wannabe Flyer]

Alt3

No Hard feelings.....in a democracy all are allowed to express thier thoughts freely. Just be glad we live in one!

New CMD has a tough job. Who knows what thats guys brief is from the top. With the number work that is public, I would probably have also taken a knife thru the company. I do beleive they tried sitting down with the Union and talking, but got a kick. Again only hear say. If I were to apply my knowledge of running a business this is only the start and if he has strong support his manadate is probably to break the back of the union, settle and offer VRS make the company lean so that it can be taken public and offloaded from the back of the government as soon as possible. he has a 1$ billion budget for that, lets see if the greedy ones bite. Probably will lean back on the management pilots then to fly.

In its current state it would probably bomb at the stock market and no investor would like to touch it.

As for something working in India. Please rememebr Indians are not that far sighted and horible planners. Our execution therefore is mediocore and most of us cannot stand together in a cohesive team. Chalta hai is a part of life here. All it takes is one person to think clearly and rationally, get his team to stand by and he has the ability to change for the better.

Remember divide and rule? Worked great for the Brits and see the outcome 70 years later?

[jimmygill]

Two cents..

IMHO, Due to the lack of regulatory and enforcement mechanisms in India the unions have a unique role to play in the Indian economy and development. Hence they cannot be discarded.

The usual argument that they are generally counterproductive is not acceptable because unions just like managements have to work under regulatory mechanisms. The design and efficacy of these mechanisms decides the efficiency of entities working within them.

Managements often have been cause of 'mismanagement-led-inefficiencies', but none talks about banishing the management.

Unions have a positive role to play, the fact that they are not doing it means they need a overhaul and not a clip-the-wing-of-the-reds.

In any economy capital and labor compete with each other, a proper balance has to be reached. This balance is more towards labor in the west than in India (neo-capitalisitic) or China (Communist).

So personally I will always oppose any move to curtail any union.


PS: I am not a red, most of my economics understanding comes from Adam Smith. (and that may not be a lot of understanding)

[NG ExPat]

I just got an email from a friend that flys the 777 for AI. He is in Frankfurt and was supposed to operate to Delhi tomorrow. He just got word that everything is cancelled. Hotel said that AI told them to inform the crews that everything is on hold for the moment.

[tiba]

Ok guys let’s get some valid points in here. Everyone has their own opinions on the matter but we must have objectivity here.

Air India is running into losses of Rs 5000 crores + and asking the Govt to bail them out.

Are you telling me that only the Pilots are responsible for these losses? And these pilots are management after giving almost 20 years to the company. Their union was disbanded almost 6 years ago during the SARs crisis. The Supreme Court of India disbanded their union. What choice did they have but to join management at the time since they couldn’t be protected otherwise? Do you think Air India management pilots were just lining their pockets and having it cushy all these years? They have worked really hard and continue to do so under the most unprofessional conditions. They have earned their perks and their allowances and their salaries with the work and the time that they have put in. And Air India pilots are still paid lower than the international standards. Currently they have arrears from 1997 still due to be paid to these pilots, forget about the current cuts.

The contract expat pilots are paid much more. But you can’t blame the expat pilots here for anything. They are here to do a job they were hired to and paid according to international standards. They cannot in anyway be embroiled in this dispute since it has nothing to do with them and their contracts.

The problem here is that these pilots happen to be striking because the cuts are not across the board for everyone. It’s exclusively for a set of “executive” pilots, whom they can control. They are not overpaid, over indulged select lot of employees that have had it real good for a very long time. They have been getting paid for what they have worked for. The union pilots whom they are speaking of are mostly first officers and the pilots that merged over from the Indian Airlines to Air India. They have managed to retain their union. Would you as commanders/captains be willing to continue working when your first officer gets paid more than you?

Air India has over 30,000+ employees in its company. Where are the cuts for them? Do you really believe that the cuts announced so far for 400 + set of pilots are really going to take them out of the red?

“The country knows that Air India has incurred losses due to the wrong policies of the government and the civil aviation minister Praful Patel. It is ironical that instead of making the minister accountable for the present state of affairs, the hapless pilots and workers are being made to suffer.

Fleet acquisition of 122 aircraft at the staggering cost of Rs 65,000 crore, one-sided bilateral agreements, policy of route rationalization, outsourcing of ground operations, the controversial decision of merging Indian Airlines into Air India and rampant corruption are the main factors for destroying Air India."

Instead of taking action against the minister, the government has allowed Air India management to hold the staff responsible for the present mess.”

[weido_salt]

tiba

What about the travelling public who have kept the AI pilots employed? If it wasn't for them putting their faith in AI there would be no jobs right? How have the pilots repaid this loyalty? With a two fingered salute.

There will be down sizing now at AI, like it or not because the public will vote with their feet. They have a choice which carrier they want to fly on. It is called competition and very healthy it is too. These selfish "executive" pilots are not only putting their jobs at risk and making themselves unemployable in the process, but risking countless other peoples jobs as well.

It was selfish pilots who hammered the final nails into the coffin of Sabena, which cost every employee their job.

If you guys are so unhappy at AI, why don't you just leave, instead of trying to destroy the company? There are plenty of jobs around for sky Gods and plenty of crews around who would be quite happy to fill your boots at AI. if the F/O's are paid more then apply to be a f/o. What's stopping you, egos?

[tiba]

Weido salt

Would you accept a 70% overall wage cut in your salary overnight?

These “selfish “pilots as you have put it, have not for the past 3 months been paid their salaries in full or on time. These pilots did not strike overnight and put the passengers in a quandary. They have been attempting to meet the management repeatedly over the past 3 months to resolve various issues that the management has been throwing at them through dialogue. Air India management has refused to engage in dialogue with them earlier regarding any of this. The management also have had enough time to think about the impact on the travelling public and prepare for the possibility of a strike knowing that it would be in the offing, if they refused to address the pilots and their grievances. As we speak right now, it’s now not only the pilots but various other sections of Air India that are joining in the strike.

What’s interesting is, that while we talk about recession and the global impact of it, in India there was a published report today on how the politicians/ministers have seen a threefold increase in wealth in the last five years. Our erstwhile Civil Aviation Minister is worth just as much as the leading industrialist of this country. And no, he does not depend on his salary that he gets from the Govt. The ones who have bled Air India dry are not its employees that are salaried individuals, who get paid for the work they have put in.....no one has been paid a $ more than they should be, but these ministers and especially our Civil Aviation minister who is single handedly responsible for driving to Air India to the ground.

Whether it’s the pilots striking today or Air India shutting down permanently, (while holding the pilots solely responsible for this), let’s not forget there is a bigger picture at play here and it does not involve the salaried employees or travelling public and their woes. A select few ministers/politicians are going to gain immensely from this shutdown when it happens and are directing it in a manner to ensure that it does happen.

[jimmygill]

What about the travelling public who have kept the AI pilots employed? If it wasn't for them putting their faith in AI there would be no jobs right? How have the pilots repaid this loyalty? With a two fingered salute.


Why do we need to be emotional with 'the faith of travelling public'? We do need to be professional. A doctor will not treat a patient if the doctor thinks that patient/insurer will not pay him. Nor will a lawyer stand in court if you don't pay him the fee. Why are we trying to bring out different standards for pilots. Just because they cater to a bulk of population in one go. I really fail to understand the argument, and for records I am all for democracy.


There will be down sizing now at AI, like it or not because the public will vote with their feet. They have a choice which carrier they want to fly on. It is called competition and very healthy it is too.


The competition has been there, only that it was not fair competition. AI was governed by management and ministers not directly answerable to the stake holders, i.e. the citizen of India (Taxpayers and non-taxpayers both). The customer always had a choice and has been exercising it, nothing new is coming up now.


These selfish "executive" pilots are not only putting their jobs at risk and making themselves unemployable in the process, but risking countless other peoples jobs as well.


Everybody is entitled to take his own risks and returns, there is no need to label pilots as selfish. The day shareholders of an airline feel like its in their interest to liquidate the airline, they will do it and without any afterthought. Its business for all parties not a charity. Pilots are not doing and are not expected to do a charity. If other people's job is affected, then those other people should have taken prior precaution to make sure such strikes do not happen.


It was selfish pilots who hammered the final nails into the coffin of Sabena, which cost every employee their job.


Who made the coffin in first place?


If you guys are so unhappy at AI, why don't you just leave, instead of trying to destroy the company? There are plenty of jobs around for sky Gods and plenty of crews around who would be quite happy to fill your boots at AI. if the F/O's are paid more then apply to be a f/o. What's stopping you, egos?

Leaving an airline in India is not an easy affair. Owing to a collusion between DGCA and the airline managements, no pilot can leave without a 6 months advance notice. At the same time a pilot can be fired without any advance notice or compensation. May be leaving had more risks associated with it than calling for a strike. Either ways its their decision and neither me nor you have any right or role in that decision.

Ego is most losely used word on this news group. Apparently working without proper compensation means a person doesn't have objectionable amount of ego. But if that is the choice I will rather have ego than work at lower compensation (strictly a personal opinion).

[BigJetJumbo]

Indian pilot found mysteriously killed in Negambo (http://www.dailymirror.lk/DM_BLOG/Sections/frmNewsDetailView.aspx?ARTID=63077) http://www.dailymirror.lk/DM_BLOG/TagImg/NO%20TAG.jpg
http://www.dailymirror.lk/DM_BLOG/ArticleImages/582_crime-scene-60.jpgA 50-year-old Indian pilot working for Sri Lankan Airlines was found brutally murdered and hanging from the staircase of his house in Negombo this morning, police spokesman Senior DIG Nimal Mediwake said. Investigations into the murder are underway.
Updated @ 29/09/2009 09:17 PM

[Speed Freak]

IF i decide to leave the airline today i will have to pay 26.5 lacs of training fee, forego 7.5 lacs of bank guarantee and pay 10 lacs as bond breakage payment. either this or continue to work for the period of bond (10 years). this is indian airlines.


as for the salary payment issue 3 components to salary:
basic salary : starts at 6750 in the 1st year of company. add DA, HRA and all that you get upto 18000 rupees a month

PLI: 16000 per month for the 1st year of service

Flying allowance: 2064 per hour for 1st year of service

so if one flies 60 hours a month (which is the average give or take 10 hours) your gross comes to about 1.2 lacs as flying allowance and basic + pli add another 35000. so about 1.55 lacs per month is the gross for a new co-pilot in the company.

what the management wants to do (they have done it for only the senior management commanders now, but it is pretty much expected for everyone else) is reduce the flying allowance and PLI by 50%. that would mean instead of 1.55 lacs i get about 86000 rupees per month gross. add income tax to it and take home comes to about 58000 rupees per month.


all figures stated above are facts to the nearest thousand and for illustration purpose. yes the pay cut and strike does not go for co-pilots at the moment but is only for illustrative purposes.


now the company pays allowance in the way that in case you fly in august, you get the allowance for august with the salary of september. allowance for month of july and august payable on the last working day of august and september respectively are due.


another bone of contention is that since the company is not paying allowance all pilots at the moment are taking home a salary of only basic + hra/da and all. which comes to about 18k a month. the EMI for a 10 lakh loan to become a pilot comes to about 30k a month for a 5 year period. even if i dont spend a penny on anything, forget BMW even on food i still dont have money to pay for my education loan.

and here i am not even comparing the disparity in the "basic salary" of air india and indian airlines.

this seems like bonded labour. i cant leave the company because of the bond and if i continue i am made to work cheap.

no wonder people have gone on strike.

i just want my flying with a blue sky on top and cumulus clouds at 3000 feet!!!

[Fubaliera]

India is the worst country in the world in every aspect, but gotta give it to the pilots their, they stand up for their rights.

[alouette3]

Fubaliera,
I assume your characterisation of India as the worst country in the world comes from your extensive experience of living and working in other countries?I of course refer to countries like Somalia,Zimbabwe, Iran, Central Asian Republics several countires in South America and so on.If not, then you are an:mad::mad::mad:!
No doubt India has huge issues and is still very much Third World and will probably never be anything better. Make no mistake, it is still an untidy democracy and offers opportunities that the aformentioned countries do not offer.So before we say"worst" anything we must remember the meaning of that word.
Or don't you know English that well? I heard that grade school education in Motown was the "worst".
Alt3

[IndAir967]

India is the worst country in the world in every aspect, but gotta give it to the pilots their, they stand up for their rights.


http://srv.exbii.com/images/smilies/newsmilies/bsflag.gif

http://srv.exbii.com/images/smilies/wtf.gif

U deserve a http://srv.exbii.com/images/smilies/spankass.gif OR A http://srv.exbii.com/images/smile2/cumbuddy.gif OR A http://srv.exbii.com/images/smile2/whipper.gif

Guys I leave the choice to you.. http://srv.exbii.com/images/smile2/victory.gif

[jimmygill]

India is the worst country in the world in every aspect, but gotta give it to the pilots their, they stand up for their rights.

Dear Fubaliera
I am glad you could spell 'every', and really impressed that you could spell 'aspect', after all its a six letter word and you have demonstrated great acumen by using at least one seven letter word. But baby you need to ask your daddy what these two words mean when they are placed next to each other.

[gottofly]

Back to the strike,whats the latest.
On TV,they r reporting that govt. has confirmed no cuts until further discussions with the executive pilots but pilots r not resuming flying duties...

[Wannabe Flyer]

It seems the pilots are back on the job after PP gave his assurances

AI pilots end strike, will resume work today (http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/air_india_standoff_day_5.php)

PP was on TV last night doing the math that showed a cut from 6.5 lakhs to 3.12 lakhs. Steep cut, but yes one can still live in India on that salary.

However as speedfreak put his maths in earlier it seems a little dismal if it moves down the ranks. So will have to take the entire thing with a pinch of salt.

Seems to be labor unrest across the country in many fields

Pricol employees beat HR manager to death
Jet Air
4000 Doctors on strike over pay
IIT Profs on strike
AI pilots on Strike

Did some one say "Karat and Stick" ;) Smells a little red in color with all this crap going on. Sour grapes I say...........Mind it.

Jimmy

Loved your english lesson to FB. Be careful his daddy does not come after you in his Pimp Mobile :O

[Wannabe Flyer]

India is the worst country in the world in every aspectFB

Please elaborate so we can make your next visit more pleasant. :{

[Fubaliera]

I cant It would take too long, all I can say is I prefer even the Congo than India

[Wannabe Flyer]

FB

Cool

Happy travels to the Congo. :p

[moderate]

Indian Pilot Dead
Indian pilot found mysteriously killed in Negambo (http://www.dailymirror.lk/DM_BLOG/Sections/frmNewsDetailView.aspx?ARTID=63077) http://www.dailymirror.lk/DM_BLOG/TagImg/NO%20TAG.jpg
http://www.dailymirror.lk/DM_BLOG/ArticleImages/582_crime-scene-60.jpgA 50-year-old Indian pilot working for Sri Lankan Airlines was found brutally murdered and hanging from the staircase of his house in Negombo this morning, police spokesman Senior DIG Nimal Mediwake said. Investigations into the murder are underway.

So sorry to interrupt your valued arguments here dear Ladies and Gentlemen.......you were given the above sad news but I haven't seen a pause, condolence nor prayer for a departed ex-colleague/comrade on this forum. Doesn't show well of you.....What a shame :=

[functionisthestyle]

is it true these guys haven't been paid in 3 months? At all?

[CLOMBO]

well done indian pilots the way to go

[Speed Freak]

been paid only the basic. thats an obligation. they cant deny that. basic ranges from 7000 - 12000 from first officer to commander. allowances for the month of july and august are pending. and apparently air india and indian airlines follow different pay schedules. apart from them getting more, air india have been paid july allowances 10 days back. however, indian airlines is yet to get them.

[Wannabe Flyer]

As per "media reports" :yuk: Exec pilots were solicited to move to private airlines. They all refused, or so it seems. (once again media report so pinch of salt). Assuming this is true.........

WHY??????????

I am sure they will get not only a good packet but also be able to get a good deal as the privates struggle to comply with DGCA ruling for 2010.

Just curious as the issue seemed to be about money and job security.

[jetsreams]

The pilots strike was the tip of the iceberg and a culmination of months
of frustration, anger,disappointment and despair of all the Air India
employees.

By blaming employees squarely for AI's losses and making them suffer
financially, the minister and his lackey the CMD have only attacked the very
people on the frontline who deliver the airlines core product.Somewhat akin
to a super speciality hospital slashing the salaries of its top notch
surgeons just because the trustees have been stealing money and scuttling
the ship from within, to benefit rivals ! Employees have had no say in the
various decisions taken by the ministry and its babus in the many policies
that have systematically destroyed the airline.

The timing of the pay cut ( the last straw in a string of ridiculous so
called cost cutting measures) is believed to have the underlying intention
of provoking a strike so that rivals like Jet Airways can benefit from the
spill over of passengers during the festive season. The hasitily withdrawn
decision by the CMD to "lock out" the airline and later,to stop taking
bookings until the 15th of October drives home the point. Also, October is
the muslim Haj season and certain individuals could even benefit immensely
by outsourcing leased charters for those flights to Medina.

The various unions had given a huge string of practical, tangible sugestions
to reduce wasteful expenditure that would have saved hundreds of millions of
dollars but these were completely ignored.As we speak, the CMD is planning
to open an economically unviable aviation academy in North East India at
Shillong, where Air India does not even operate flights!!
**
*Below is a list of some of the hidden factors that have led to the
crisis.These are an Indian pilot's point of view and all the information is
factually correct.*
**
*1)Artificially Created Pilot Shortage*: During the tenure of Mr
V.Thulasidas as the CMD, brand new aircraft worth billions of dollars, both
Boeing777s & 737s were kept parked on the ground for months due to an acute
shortage of Pilots (Captains)- resulting in hundreds of crores of losses
every month. This in spite of having hundreds of qualified Indian Co-pilots
who could have been promoted to fill vacancies of Captains but were not. Who
was responsible for the stoppage of training for these co-pilots preventing
their promotions - thus resulting in the free hand given to officials in Air
India, DGCA & the Ministry of Civil Aviation to give the go ahead to recruit
Expatriates?

*2)Preferential Treatment of Foreigners*: How is it today that the cash
strapped airline can pay foreign pilots ( some 180 + in number) their full
salaries on time and not retrench even a single one even though it claims
its own national pilots are "underutilized" and the company has not been
paying 31000 Indian employees their full salaries since August ?


The CMD has reduced the effective pay of Indian national pilots by up to 70

percent WITHOUT ANY PRIOR WARNING OR DISCUSSION. *Why not of foreigners who
sometimes work only 3 weeks,are given 8 days compulsory off and given
business class tickets to go home EACH MONTH and are, in some cases paid
more than what their Indian counterparts were earning prior to the salary
cut !** *
**

*All this, inspite of the fact that all foreign pilots are junior to Indians in seniority !* ( I have nothing PERSONAL against any expat and some of the ones I have flown with are not only good professionals but also good human beings. The point I am making is one of home grown discrimination in my own country )


Why are expat pilots given preferential treatment over Indians even at the
cost of safety - by allowing them to be certified by foreign medical boards
with medical standards that are far lower than those prescribed by the
Indian DGCA for Indian pilots? There are foreigners flying in Air India who
would have failed even Air India's own company pre employment medical tests.


*Since when have foreigners become more important in a Government run

company ?*


Also, why are expats hired through placement firms ONLY and not through
direct recruitment as is done by the world's major carriers? Was any global
tender floated to approve such placement firms? Why are ( some) foreign pilots with dubious qualifications( a B777 captain who I know personally, joined AI without a single hour as PIC ,fudged his log book, proudly "created" a few hundred hours extra prior to joining and got a rubber seal made to certify his logbook) being recruited in droves through recruitment firms even though Air India's Indian pilots are grossly underutilized?

*3)Massive Tax Breaks:* Expats are paid their salaries through their
placement firms in offshore destinations. Thus hundreds of crores worth of
income tax is denied to the Indian exchequer. Ironically the CMD and his
Minister want a bailout to save these very jobs !!


*4) ILL Conceived Merger of two airlines: *Who idea was it to merge the
erstwhile Air India and Indian Airlines and who chose the firm Accenture as
a consultant for the merger and why have their recommendations not been made
public?

Whose idea was it to merge erstwhile Air India with Indian Airlines- both of
which without resolving contentious issues such as route rationalisation,
employee pay and seniority? Why were the liabilities of Indian Airlines,
Vayudoot and Alliance Air worth thousands of crores slapped onto AI when it
had just begun to make operating profits?

*5) Unjustified Fleet Acquisition*: Why was fleet expansion not halted when
passenger loads began to drop? Why were so many aircraft ( 110 ) purchased

without a concrete deployment plan and inadquate passenger loads? Why were aircraft deliveries not cancelled or defered ? Who benefited from the
aircraft acquisition ?

*6) Dubious choice of aircraft:*:

a) Who choose a smaller capacity aircraft ( Boeing 737) when Airbus A310s
were already carrying full loads on Gulf Sectors?

In any case, why were Boeing 737s chosen over the Airbus A320 for which
erstwhile Indian Airlines already had the infrastructure? Both are the same
category of aircraft.

b) Ordering the Boeing 777 in only two variants -i.e. LR & 300ER. Was any
feasibility study carried out? The fuel cost of the LR is enormous; we have
a disadvantage in comparison to EK, QR or SQ where fuel costs are cheaper.
Filling up a 300 ER is also no easy task! To add to the confusion, IC got
the A 330 and that too only two of them. *Now we have a merged entity with 9
types of aircraft. Boeing 744,777,787,737,310,320,330, plus Alliance Air
which is also a part of the merged entity with Boeing 737-200 & the CRJ.
What is going on here? Individual officials (including bureaucrats in the
ministry) need to be questioned about such decisions with justifications.**
*

*7)Aircraft Route Deployment*: Whose idea was it to start nonstop India to
USA Long Range flights with higher priced tickets only to result in empty
aircraft flying? For over a year we had excess capacity to the New York area
with 2 Boeing 777 Long Range aircraft. There was no feeder plan in place to
fill these planes. After about 2 yrs of flying empty planes, the resultant
LOSSES will take many years to overcome. Again individual officials in the
Ministry and Airline need to be taken to task for such wrong commercial
decisions.

We operate a small Airbus A319 to Singapore and Airbus A 320 on the India
Saudi Arabia sector with reduced loads, sacrificing revenue, as the aircraft
are unable to carry too much. Who takes such decisions?

*8) Randomly Opening & Closing down Stations* .This costs money, Los Angeles
(LAX) has been shut, now we think SFO( San Francisco) is the place to go !
Earlier we had shut down Frankfurt (FRA), Manchester (MAN), Rome, Zurich and
Geneva. We had to pay heavy social / severance costs to the retrenched
employees only to open up Frankfurt (FRA) & now we think it's the right spot
for our European HUB! FRA as a hub is going to only benefit Lufthansa
(LH).We should have opened a hub in a 2 tier city such as Dusseldorf,
Berlin, Hamburg as from these places Lufthansa would have limited
connectivity on the Trans Atlantic sector and we would have got their
passengers. For FRA we will only be getting their spill over loads as they
have worldwide connectivity.

*9)Closing down stations to benefit Jet Airways*: We closed down Abu Dhabi
AUH, Doha DOH, Bahrain BAH, Muscat MCT only weeks before Jet Airways started
operation to these stations. Then we shut Bangkok BKK. Only AI Express
operates to these places with very small aircraft. It would be interesting
to read the reports justifying such steps.


** *10) Dry Leased Aircraft *- Once we started getting delivery of our
Boeing 777s, some of the earlier dry leased aircraft stood parked due lack
of Pilots. We did not even return the dry leased Boeing 777s, so that our
aircraft could fly. Was there no exit clause in the lease contract? Who
signed this deal without keeping an exit option for AI?

*11)Cargo Aircraft*: Our Airbus A310 dry leases were perfectly timed so that
they could be replaced with the arrival of the brand new Boeing 787 & so was
the conversion of our company's own Airbus 310 to freighter.

However it became well known that the Boeing 787 is long delayed, in spite
of this we went ahead & sent our Airbus 310's for freighter conversion. As
if converting 2 of them & not optimally utilising them was not enough, we
went ahead & converted 2 more, only to park them on the ground. Since the
past 8 months we have only been operating 3 flights a week to Frankfurt FRA,
which is in fact a utilization of only ONE aircraft!
Singapore Air SQ, Cathay CX, KA, UPS all other companies operate large
Boeing747-400 freighters to India but our Cargo dept with a dedicated Exec
Director has not been able to find destinations for a medium capacity A310
aircraft. Since we did not get the Boeing 787's on time, converting the
Airbus A310s reduced our passenger capacity for medium haul routes such as
Singapore & Saudi Arabia and now we have deployed small Airbus 320/319s with
severe payload restrictions on these routes. Who gave the go -ahead for the
last two Airbus A310's to be sent for cargo conversion? What was the
business plan?

*And now,as of two weeks ago, the company has shut down international
freighter operations completely !!*

*12) Toronto (YYZ)* ops: Only last month AI increased its frequency to YYZ,
7 flts a week. We operated empty aircraft for 2 weeks only to start
cancelling flights at random. Only one month after the announcement we now
operate only 3 to 4 flts. The flights cancelled are not day specific but at
random, thereby confusing the passengers even more. Our methodology of
introducing flights is to accept the fact that the aircraft will run empty
for 6-8 months. Over that period the public will get to know that AI is optg
& hopefully seats would start filling up! With this strategy we need to
close our sales & marketing departments. Globally airlines plan their
schedules 4-6 months early so that the sales team can then market the
product, advertise, and hold seat sales but we have no such concept. A case
in point for the CMD is SFO ops due to start in less than 5 months, we are
not sure if it will be daily or 4 times a week.When will the flight be put
on the ticket sales system?


*13) Employee Morale*: At its lowest. What has the CMD achieved by
victimising the same people whose support is essential to deliver his
product efficiently ,safely and on time ( i.e highly skilled pilots ) ?

By not allowing senior company officials, pilots and engineers business or
first class travel privileges that have been earned over years of hard work?
All staff tickets are issued on an unconfirmed Subject to Load Basis i.e.
seats are released only if there are no revenue passengers travelling. There
is NO loss to the company nor its passengers as these staff tickets are
unconfirmed and seats cannot be blocked. In fact, the CMDs policy of forcing
Staff on Duty to travel on economy seats is displacing many fare paying
economy class passengers since business class seats are often empty and
Staff who would have normally travelled on business class seats are now
occupying economy class seats.

Ironically, the CMD himself gave his own policy a go-by by sneakily
travelling on First Class on a Lufthansa flight from Frankfurt to Mumbai
when an Air India flight was available! Who paid the tax for that flight?
Air India of course! And he repeated this again when he travelled from India
to Kuala Lumpur.

As if on cue, the Civil Aviation Secretary Nambiar bought his wife the
cheapest economy class ticket on an Air India flight and got her upgraded to
First Class through the office of his IAS counterpart in Air India- the CMD
himself!

And now they've unilaterally reduced the salaries of senior pilots by upto
70 percent without ANY prior discussion or warning !

*14) HRD Issues and Legal Costs*:Has anyone found out that the legal bills
of the company runs into crores? What are the cases pending with the
employees? Is it justified to spend crores of rupees on these legal
disputes & harass the employees? What happened to the Grievance Redressal
System within the company, as most issues could have been resolved there
without any costs? Which are the legal firms that benefit the most
monetarily from Air India?

*15) Artificially escalated pilot training costs *: Boeing 777 simulator
training costs us a fortune. Why does Air India not own Boeing 777
simulators whereas Jet Airways does? Who is causing the delay in acquiring
our own simulators? The Airbus 310 simulator has been declared redundant
because we do not want to pay the simulator engineers a higher salary. Who
gains from the contracts for outsourcing such training? What is the cost of
hiring the Jet Airways/Emirates simulators vs. having our own set up?

*16) Double Standards:*The CMD continues to live in one of the most
expensive and posh apartment complexes in Mumbai. He is a direct benefactor
of the Sixth Pay commission in a recession bound economy and travels in
First Class through a covert interline ticket arrangement in other
airlines.Does not charity begin at home?


*Why are the erstwhile and existing Minister of Civil Aviation, Secretaries
of Civil Aviation and former CMDs not held accountable for all these acts of
omission and commission?*

[Wannabe Flyer]

For the most part your points are indeed shocking and need to be exposed via a PIL. Unfortunately regardless of what one may try this is a horse that will be flogged until it cannot walk any more.

In my opinion it has reached a stage where there is no return. I am afraid with some of your revelations it is only a matter of time before tax payers rebel and refuse to support it.

Best of Luck.

[IndAir967]

Jet Streams that was one of the best posts i got to read now a days ..
I suggest you raise awareness among public about the real reasons on why our carrier has been loosing money instead of cutting salaries..
Bonne Landings !

[tangowithtushar]

@ jetstreamcant help but read in awe your post abovewhere is manju v still printing bull crap in toi?? i wish ur post gets more readers and not just us on pprune..if u let us we could forward this to more and more people via emailits a unanimous opinion that air india is a black hole ..excellent fodder to bring mr praful patel and the incumbent cmd mr jadhav on his knees through a PIL but sigh..!! on the other hand if the public decides to do away with this white elephant wont it jeapordise 36k jobs in air indiabut hey does the public ever have a say in our democracy..meanwhile i so hope bjp in the opposition could create a furore over it

[Anotherpost75]

jetstreams You forgot to ask why the Minister of Civil Aviation is a major private shareholder of rival airline, Jet Airways. Surely, there must be a huge conflict of interest inherent in this position?

[Mtnrick]

weido salt,

You ask:

"Why would that be? Why would an expat, who will be on a short term contract, want to support people who cant wait to see the back of them? As an expat would say, it would be the same as "turkeys voting for Christmas", or a sheep voting for Eid."

I'm surprised you have to ask the question and now in light of the settlement it becomes a bit of a moot point......BUT......as an AI 777 expat captain I can tell you that I and all of my other AI 777 expat captain peers were committed to not cross any lines real or virtual. AI is full of problems and yes we are resented by many AI pilots, but we are not at AI to weaken, tear down, or undercut the AI pilots. We respected their job action and would have supported it if push came to shove.

[Sky Dancer]

Jetsreams , that was one of the best posts I have seen on this forum.Full of facts..and more facts.I hope some of our "very informed" aviation correspondents in the media are reading this and publish this because these are questions that need to be answered by the ministry and Thulsidas himself....I agree with the pilots of AI , why should they be punished because of the faults of those in power ?Having said that I also pity the present CMD as he has to clean out this mess....:ok:

[Capt Apache]

I cant It would take too long, all I can say is I prefer even the Congo than India



Happy travels to the Congo. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif


Just wondering...Has he made it to Congo yet or did he die along the way?

[rdr]

Jetstream, you have given an insight into total mismanagement as well as corruption at the highest national, as well as company levels.

I could add on to your post, but i do feel it is counter productive. Still you have made a start.

Can you now suggest some effective course of action for the ailing company ??

[Wannabe Flyer]

TOI reporting today that an RTI filed has yielded some information on a dubious lease in 1996 that cost AI 26 million.

Go jet stream

Reccomendation

Declare bankruptcy and start from scratch as a private limited company without govt con men

[weido_salt]

Mtnrick

An interesting post indeed.

I am not in the least bit concerned what aircraft you operate. It could be a small turbo prop or piston for all I care. So what does the type of aircraft you operate got to do with this subject? It will take more than a B777 to impress me.

"...........but we are not at AI to weaken, tear down, or undercut the AI pilots".

Probably not, however by blindly following the blind and going out with the rest of the "elite" pilots you would be helping to tear down the company, that is feeding you and your family. If you did go out sick with the rest of them I would hope you intended to leave as you would have been sacked, in all probability. Why would you what to support them? You see as a foreigner, you pay Indian tax (if India based) but you are given nothing in return. You will have no rights whatsoever. What are the Indian pilot force doing for you? They want you and the rest of the expats out, thereby cutting short your time in India, where you like India or hate it. I assume AI have got you a work permit, for you to be based in India, so what other obstacle should be placed in your way to stay and work in India? I am sure where you come from there are Indian pilots who are working and perhaps taking jobs off the locals. well as long as they have a work permit and the licence then I would have thought that was fare enough. Oh the licence. If you are a foreign national in India you will never get an Indian licence. How many Indian pilots have FAA, JAA etc., licences? Many! Don't you think the playing field should be levelled somewhat before you support, the blind leading the blind? I am referring to pilots here.

P.S., is this (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/391068-ic-884-brawl-enroute-flight-deck-vs-cabin-crew.html) how the "elite" behave?

[babboo57]

@jetstream,

your post made interesting reading. would also like to know the exact role
the ' management pilots ' play in managing the company. what kind
of managerial roles do they play -these aggrieved management pilots who went on strike . of all the questions that u have asked,
are any addressed to these management pilots who may have been
part of all this mismanagement or at least privy to these wrong
doings but kept quite because they were getting their share
of the loot - 10 lacs or so pm and much more during the hey days ?

[Speed Freak]

in addition the the 9 a/c that you mentioned that air india is flying. i would also like to add 2 more aircrafts. we also have an atr flying on the delhi-kanpur-allahabad route (not sure if wet or dry leased) and we also have a beechcraft 1900d aircraft wetleased. dont know where it flies to but it is there on the operators permit of indian airlines. added about 5 months back.

[TopTup]

Jetstream and co…. (blind followers):
You are a little, little, little person of no honor let alone integrity. You have written a squabble of self serving opinionated “facts” yet your prejudices, xenophobic nature and obvious racism screams out your pathetic existence. Some points I will not argue with as I do agree but your attack on the foreigners is DESPICABLE. Why am I so annoyed? You have used this web site to launch a self absorbed scathing attack at AI and in particular the expat pilot community when either:
a) I will bet you are just as much to blame for AI’s woes as the next elitist AI arrogant sky-god; or
b) your slanderous comments about the expat pilots have left your true colors openly exposed.

The points I will comment on are from those raised by you, ie those I can comment on and not allow my disgust at the shear existence of AI to get in the way:

1) “Qualified” Indian co-pilots… WHAT? With 175 hrs and you want them to fly a 777, 747, A310/19/20/21… As I witnessed they can not even manually fly straight and level on downwind and ARE NOT PERMITTED to land the aircraft. So, pilot incapacitation? Autoland into BOM with a G/S of 3.30 deg? They may go for years without EVER taking off or landing the aircraft. Yeah, real safe you fool. Replace experienced and SAFE pilots with children unable or not permitted to even land the aircraft. Let’s ask the travelling public whom they want up the pointy end?

2) If the foreigners are not paid, they will walk out. They are professional and unified that is why. They are PROFESSIONAL and SUPPORT each other, not like the fractured self absorbed and self serving “executives” there at present. The foreigners have offered AI MANY solutions to a more efficient work pattern that would save MILLIONS of USD but your corrupt schedulers & "executive pilots" (which you support?) will not budge from having their back pockets lined and whiskey shelves filled. If they are paid more it is because they come with many, many years of experience and qualifications. Sorry, you want to rely on your 175 hr children in opposition. You naive and dangerous fool.
FOREGNERS WITH DUBIOUS QUALIFICATIONS?? What? Their many, many, many thousands of hours experience and tertiary credentials of some. They bring STANDARDS and EXPERTISE earnt over many years from all types of aviation including military, GA and the decades of international airline ops? You xenophobic, jealous idiot. Ask the FO’s and FA’s whom they prefer to fly with? The expat will give a qualified FO flying sectors while your Indian Cmdrs are so child-like that they take every sector. The expats respect the FA’s as a vital and integral part of the CREW while the nationals see them to be belittled and put down (even sacrifice an occupied flight deck to brawl with!): a means only to serve them meals and chai while being abused if arriving late with their order dare say a passenger’s needs were being attended to.

3) Any contract employee will never possess seniority over the latest full time employee anywhere in the world. You b!tch about the obvious. And foreigners or ANYONE having the skills and experience of the what the “foreigners” bring will always be preferred to a child of 175 hrs or a Cmdr who flies in his pajamas, smokes in the cockpit, keeps the cockpit door open, treats the FO and FA’s like scum and below his self believing God-like status, or gets into a physical fight with fellow crew members leaving the cockpit unattended…. Yeah… why bother with the professionals when AI have such a marvelous pool of talent! Contract employees are almost ALWAYS employed from an agency you idiot. The expats RESPECT seniority above all in a pecking order, unlike some whom I know bribe to climb above it at AI for promotion.

4) Expats have to pay tax or else their visa is cancelled let alone renewed. Research your facts idiot. And if they are able to set themselves up to avoid taxation legally, well who’s smarter?

6) On what authority do you have to state aircraft economics? The carriers you state often operate the -200LR with the -115 engines where AI use the -110, but of course you knew that didn’t you… Or are you again just MAKING UP STORIES to sell your imbecilia?

15) “Artificially escalating pilot training costs”… well when AI BUY 4 hours of sim time at Jet Airways but use perhaps 1.5 hrs due the instructor can’t be bothered to arrive on time for the scheduled briefing, let alone start time then, hey! Blame management for their incompetence and lack of professionalism!! TRE’s and TRI’s passing pilots that should have been failed, OR failing them and then being reprimanded by the “executive / management” pilots for doing so??! FACTS! And I have the evidence to prove it.

So, your ICAO Cat II status investigations have been well earnt by you all. Then again, you’ll blame those damn foreigners for that won’t you? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, AI / Indian aviation is the LAUGHING STOCK of world aviation. You exist in a self created cesspit of systematic, beaurocratic and structured quagmire.You blame everyone else for the situation but fail to acknowledge any part the YOU may have in the prodcut AI so pathetically offer.

Self absorbed, self opinionated idiots like you will promote AI to the lower doldrums of world disgust.

:mad:

[TopTup]

Indian Aviation Indian airlines: Not safe enough? - eTurboNews.com (http://www.eturbonews.com/7451/indian-airlines-not-safe-enough)

Indian flights to US score low on safety - India Business - Business - NEWS - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Business/India-Business/Indian-flights-to-US-score-low-on-safety/articleshow/3970269.cms)

But hey! Get rid of the damn foreigners because you have these highly trainined pilots climbing the ranks to take their place:

All flunk pilot licence exam - Mumbai - City - NEWS - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/city/mumbai/All-flunk-pilot-licence-exam/articleshow/5011602.cms)

From your own press and illustrious DGCA FACTS and FIGURES.

Your aviation industry is a SICKENING JOKE played on the unsuspecting travelling public.

[alouette3]

After that,I believe the ball is very much in Jetstream's court.:E

Alt3.

[Wannabe Flyer]

I think Jet's thoughts on the management and leasing of air craft are good points and definitely point to the rot in the IA system. Also having such diverse equipment is probably a maintenance nightmare.

From the look of it it seems most if not all pilots seem to have or at least turn to flogging the expat issue as they feel it invokes nationalistic pride etc amongst all. This is where all these emotional 175 hr to 20000 hrs guys seem to loose the drift.

Sorry buddies that argument does not fly with an increasing aware (Indian) public. Hey many of us have been expats in other countries so please don't do us a dis service as we might get kicked out or kicked around in our jobs. (hmm it is already happening in Australia so i wonder if there is more than meets the eye there).

So if you keep screaming kick the expats out then please be ready to leave your country of work and return to Mother India and then slug it out at 30,000 feet with your FA's.

And economics 101 lesson. Free trade involves movement of both goods and skills across borders unhindered. India is a WTO member so stop pissing in your chadis.

Also repeated clarifications on tax not being paid by expats. Well as said do your homework. Tax is paid by them however instead of being deducted from salary etc etc as an Indian resident it is deposited directly by the company with the govt at a much higher rate as mandated by the Indian tax code. Based on country of residence and dual tax treaties they can claim refunds in their country, something you can also do so if you are an expat in a treaty company (refer WTO etc etc). So if you want to raise the tax issue next time when a co worker is smuggling in above his quota of duty free or you purchase a house and under invoice do raise the tax issue internally in a country with a parallel economy larger than it's actual. Tax evasion is as rampant as bad driving in this country so lets not start pointing fingers.

As a foot note, I am an Indian have been an expat, have availed of above concessions and have employed expats in India and continue to want to keep that option open. I am quite confident they will not shut my business down at the drop of a hat or beat my co workers up for whatever reasons.

Long live capitalism! Piss of socialist mindsets :{

[rdr]

Thanks TOPTUP, you have taken the exact words out of my mouth, only i would never have been able to say it half as well. I was trying to draw this imbecilic child of Indian aviation out into the open.

His post reflects the national culture of ....I first,......I....second,......you last. He has laced this disgraceful trait with a rant against his company.
One thing the recent events have shown is that no one in his right mind should only have local pilots.

The way forward, is to teach the young Indian pilots as much as you can, in flying and aviation. They are smart enough to see the difference. As for the stupid nationalistic fools, they will dig their own graves as Indian aviation matures. The world is littered with idiots who try to stop others seeing the big picture for their own self advancement.

[weido_salt]

TopTup

Excellent post and eloquently put!


jetsreams

To maintain any remaining dignity you have left on this site I would suggest your do some heavy handed editing of your post, or go for the delete button.

If I ever took a walloping like that on pprune I wouldn't post anymore for quite awhile!

Ah the medial examination! Well any Indian in their right mind will tell you it is way, way over the top. Anyone who is honest will tell you a lot of the expats would probably be pushed to pass the fighter pilot/space cadet/astronaut medical. So why washout your expertise because they maybe a little overweight etc? we are talking about a two crew operation here, are we not? May I remind you they are pilots we are referring to not astronauts, although looking at some of them swaggering around, one could be forgiven for mistaking them as such.

Before you close yourself down, maybe you could inform us all why the A.I.,cabin crew stay in different hotels than flight deck whenever possible? No? Well I'll tell them for you. A.I., have had so many sexual harassment cases logged against cockpit crews hassling the girls this was their answer. Some of these "elite" cant attract a women on merit, so they resort to the misuse of "power" hiding behind a uniform and the threat of recriminations it may bring, if the line is not towed.

On ya TopTup! :)

[jimmygill]

*Why are the erstwhile and existing Minister of Civil Aviation, Secretaries of Civil Aviation and former CMDs not held accountable for all these acts of omission and commission?*

Currently I am based out of Dayton, OH, but will like to find out the reason 'why' may be you can help me formulate a right to information application. Lets see how it works.

@wannabe_flyer
For the most part your points are indeed shocking and need to be exposed via a PIL.

I didn't find it shocking, I expected that there is a big deal of mismanagement (to quote it lightly) with not just AI-IA but the whole civil aviation in India. With my little experience with Civil Aviation I can bet there is hardly anything civil about it. But I did find the email informative, even though its just the tip of the iceberg.

The sad thing is people know (at least the insiders) but they just let it go.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
- Edmund Burke

[Rotorhead1026]

And when they strike, they really strike ... :eek:

Report: Pilots Brawl With Crew Aboard Air India Flight - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News - FOXNews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,559861,00.html)


Looks like the company will have a couple of openings soon.

[shanx]

...... and when these rodents strike .... ??? :}




Did a rat scare ground AI flight?
4 Oct 2009, 2105 hrs ISTThe Air India flight 923 from Calicut to Riyadh was cancelled today after crew and passengers spotted a rat onboard the aircraft. However, airport officials played down the incident. The airport manager was quick to deny the rat scare and instead blamed the cancellation on technical reasons.

After disembarking the passengers, the flight was diverted to Mumbai and ordered to be fumigated.

This is the second such case that has been reported in the last two weeks.



Did a rat scare ground AI flight?- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos (http://www.timesnow.tv/Did-a-rat-scare-ground-AI-flight/articleshow/4328826.cms)

[jimmygill]

Two pilots have been grounded after they allegedly left their cockpit mid-flight to trade punches with crew members in front of stunned passengers.

'Authority' is a strange thing, it gets diluted when used to often and gets rusted when not used regularly. More strangely it increases with delegation. Am not sure who the PIC delegated the authority this time to, the autopilot!

Without going into any enquiry to establish the reportage, if the PIC had left crew station without declaring emergency or delegating controls to another flight crew he must be fired not merely 'grounded'.

[Mtnrick]

weido salt

My mentioning the 777 was not meant to try to impress you, but rather to identify me as part of a peer group that are all highly experienced, have flown for much better companies in the past and are for the most part riding in their last rodeo. The descriptions you cite are probably for the most part correct. You ask if in backing the pilots we would be willing to give up the job to which the answer would be yes if that was the final outcome.

I don't really know you so I won't ascribe to you the generalizations I am about to make. In looking around the industry it is pretty easy to see that conditions for pilots are not as good as previous times. What we do not want to do is be enablers or contributors to the continued erosion of the profession. It seems to me many of those who are following in our foot steps are not willing to do what is necessary to protect the profession for themselves or those follow. Quite frankly, I enjoy what I'm doing or I would not be here, but I or my peers are not going to enable or help a corrupt management make an unwarranted attack on the other AI pilots regardless of what they may think of us. I would expect there are many who would call us foolish (that doesn't bother me a bit), but we believe in integrity and will not participate in the attacks on the AI pilot group.

[Wannabe Flyer]

India today ran an article on the strike and an analysis. A summary

1) Last major strike in 1991 was when IA pilots went on a strike to demand better pay. This lasted a month and was the straw that broke the camels back ie: governments decision to allow private players.

2) Before that almost weekly strikes of some department or the other.

Since then 15 years have passed and there have been no major strikes. Interestingly they have attributed it to the following

1) Pilots used to take to this career because of the love of flying. Now it is for money and money only.

2) Young guns cannot handle this life style especially as a lot of them are from small towns and from conservative back grounds. Cases of sexual harassment and other such issues including stealing of hotel supplies, duty free smuggling etc have been plaguing all airlines recently (I believe an earlier poster has also mentioned these here). This has reached alarming proportions and will cost all airlines huge amounts.

In a nut shell this is the tip of the iceberg and bigger problems to come in the future.

In my opinion, this is plaguing all industries in In India where the competitive nature of the schooling and pressure from family as well as the dual society a lot of middle India live in has resulted in this warped sense of I, me and myself.

The issues in the aviation sector and other areas are a manifestation of this and the lack of civic sense and proper primary school education in the entire country.

For crying out aloud try and get an Indian to stand in line or see how we drive on the roads and it will become clear as to what is the problem.

This still does not change my view that the only way to begin this reform is to give a shock and stick by it. As a tax payer I am increasingly going to refuse to let my money flow down the tube of AI and let them shut down. Shock of 30,000 people without jobs might actually wake some idiots up across the board.

[itsbrokenagain]

I have to ask about the commander quality in the cockpits here in India. Last night on the ramp at delhi there was a Airbus that got lost on the domestic apron and couldnt find their bay!!! HOW can you do this in Delhi, its easy man.

The follow me car came along and they were choosing to not follow it and instead turned off in the wrong direction...again, I think it took them nearly 45 minutes to park, we saw them taxi right past their bay not once but twice!...the commander at one stage even did his PA announcement on the ground frequency blaming the airport authority for the mix up in their bay(although in the 45 minutes a kingfisher pilot also did his PA announcement on the ground freq which impressed me, and in english and hindi to boot).... WTF I have only ever seen this type of stupidity here in India by Indian crews... this is a easy airport to find your way around people and its your home turf I would hate to see them in other parts of the world!

[fullforward]

Getting lost on its own homeland airport, inflight rape & fight, rats (everywere)... This summ up for the Indian aviation culture picture.
And, off course, blame it all on that nasty expats...:ugh:

[jimmygill]

Young guns cannot handle this life style especially as a lot of them are from small towns and from conservative back grounds. Cases of sexual harassment and other such issues including stealing of hotel supplies, duty free smuggling etc have been plaguing all airlines recently (I believe an earlier poster has also mentioned these here). This has reached alarming proportions and will cost all airlines huge amounts.

Hailing from a small town cannot be translated into having inclination towards sexual harassment or stealing towels. Your argument sounds elitist, just like the Indian Army's argument about the young officers. The army thinks that not enough number of officers are coming from military (elitist) background, and hence they are unable to recruit up to full quota. Both of these arguments undermine quality training and quality selection.

On the other hand its also true that the HR-MBAs awarded by so many institutes in India aren't worth their weight in toilet paper. That, kind of rules out quality-selection. Airlines are still left with the quality training option, how inefficient it may have been rendered by lack of quality selection.

That kind of reminds me of a really 'dumb' squadron leader from Indian Air Force who was teaching at a ground school in India. He came and asked me, "How would this poster suite on the walls of students dormitory?" The poster read in very bold face "Do not improvise!"

It is wise in India to always support the suggestion of your bosses, no matter how insane or inane they may sound. I really wanted to tell him, "If I were living in that dorm I would rather have a life size Marlyn Monroe poster than any wisecracks." Alas, I never had a very good reputation of being a wise man.

"Do not improvise!" is elitist. When safety is everybody's business everybody should improvise.

[Wannabe Flyer]

When safety is everybody's business everybody should improviseHope you are not talking about the famous Indian Jugaad. This is the most dangerous kind of improvisation which tends to happen in buckets in India. I would prefer by the book as things tend to get out of control and opinionated otherwise.

Sorry if I came across as elitist, however that was not the intention. The intention was to demonstrate what you have actually stated well. Un regulated schools and colleges churning out people who think they everything and yet lack the basic skills to communicate or have civic sense or even stand in a line. I studied in a school in a small town which has and continues to imbibe good value systems amongst its alumni.

It is wise in India to always support the suggestion of your bosses, no matter how insane or inane they may sound. I really wanted to tell him, "If I were living in that dorm I would rather have a life size Marlyn Monroe poster than any wisecracks."This is petty thought process that all need to break out of. Next time your Boss asks you to do something out of your job description politely and firmly tell him no. Remember the origins of CRM.........if I remember correctly Teneriffe 1977 showed all what such a mind set can do.

Sorry about you not being able to have Marilyn Monroe poster in your dorm. I had my stash of Playboys and life size blow ups of Sam Fox with little left to imagination. Did see my boss "improvising" more than once :)

Cheers mate the mind and mentality has to change someday and what better day than today!

[weido_salt]

"Did see my boss "improvising" more than once"

Haha!! Good one!! :ok:

It is very cost effective, the improvisation you are referring too. I would be a wealthy man if I had "improvised" more often! :}

[Wannabe Flyer]

It is very cost effective, the improvisation you are referring too. I would be a wealthy man if I had "improvised" more often! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Yes agree it is very cost effective. Also forgot that in India they have laid a price on Human life! :=

[jimmygill]

This is petty thought process that all need to break out of. Next time your Boss asks you to do something out of your job description politely and firmly tell him no. Remember the origins of CRM.........if I remember correctly Teneriffe 1977 showed all what such a mind set can do.

Thanks for the advise, I really appreciate that... trying to get rid of a particular mindset is where every individual is free to 'improvise' and thats. 'Jugaad' is an improvisation too. But it resulted when several other failed to improvise (State Motor Vehicle Departments, SMVDs). The pioneers of 'Jugaad' have posed a problem to the SMVDs to improvise in a such a fashion so as to preserve the economics of 'jugaad' and still guarantee safety. But the hurdle is SMVDs have failed to recognize the problem. Its their (SMVDs) turn in the chess game. Not having any idea about what move to play next, they are looking here and there.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Wow

That's a pretty fresh crew on board. I wonder what kind of hours they had.

Also cabin crew having CPL's well, shows the glut in the market and why there is this whole anti expat sentiment. However Cest la vie. Every dog has his turn and they will get theirs too.

Considering the high levels of maturity in the cockpit that fateful day and now having the ages and the experience in front of us, maybe a little toning done of the xenophobic behavior is the offing. The writing is on the wall. Pilots are like fine wine. They become better only with age :p

[IndAir967]

So, Jetstream, I notice that you and the rats following your flute have all gone quiet since being exposed and commented on by others. You have been called out and you have NOTHING.

Moderators, if you want to penalise me then so be it. But have a good look at WHY I have written what I have and be fair. Call a spade a spade and pathetic racist s.o.b. a pathetic racist s.o.b.

No wonder you couldnt survive AI:rolleyes:

Bonne Landings !:ok:

[jimmygill]

Moderators, if you want to penalise me then so be it. But have a good look at WHY I have written what I have and be fair. Call a spade a spade and pathetic racist s.o.b. a pathetic racist s.o.b.


Whoever has written that, must take into calculation that fairness is not as much a standard as it is a matter of perspective. While deliberating on an issue which crosses cultures, one should exercise a great deal of caution as one may not be having a perspective of what 'fair' is. If the author has exercised that caution, then I believe he is to , if he has not then he is no different from what he is accusing, a pathetic racist s.o.b. or a spade.

[TopTup]

JimmyGill... I wrote that and withdrew my post as it was written out of frustration and not fair. The reason I gave was "Life is too short".

But, fairness is not a "perspective". The law on what is fair and right / illegal and legal is blind. Or so it is meant to be unless some people can bribe it otherwise.

A "perspective" may be that one stole because the person I stole from can afford the loss and I am happy, therefore it is OK. Perspective. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Justify it as it as one will.

What Jetstream wrote was a tale of "from my podium" and a blatant attack on anyone at AI not Indian. Some points well written but denegrated by xenophobia. I am told that due my intolerance I found it difficult and hence left AI - exactly. I couldn't survive AI and am proud I didn't lower my standards as was required should I stay.

But, this diverts from the thread of AI' "strike". It was a "sick-out" and nothing more. When the sheets are pulled back the despicable mess is being revealed. And, it will always be someone elses fault.....too bad if they are not Indian as a linching rope will be placed nearby.

Arrogant. Dangerous. Corrupt. Wrong.

[ghuman_07]

y is toptup always in d middle of a controversy ????????
ever heard d principle of live n let live,, aviation was there before u existed and will continue even when ur gone.....:ugh:

[jimmygill]

y is toptup always in d middle of a controversy ????????
ever heard d principle of live n let live,, aviation was there before u existed and will continue even when ur gone.....

Indeed aviation was there even before most of us took our first step and started training our mind and spine to learn to balance. It will exist when we all are gone. Even if the Wright brothers would have succumbed to some accident or illness while they were very young. Aviation would have happened.

But it will be a different aviation when we all would have eschewed certain values, that people like toptup, and everyone else who is involved in aviation with their integrity intact, cherishes. At a certain level its not about flying the aircraft, its much more than that. Which I hope you may be aware of. But in this poster's case my hope is mere optimism. To me it doesn't seem like that he didn't get a sound education in the English language, but apparently he gave up what he learnt. I hope he hadn't given up his aviation education. Getting a good aviation education is scarcer than getting a good English education. Pardon me if am acting like a grandpa... I am bit futuristic you see.

[rdr]

ghuman and indair967,

a pilots licence in other parts of the world does not confer a false status on you as it does in India. (nowhere in the world is a 150 hr fresher called a capt, except in India). you have to earn your stripes through hard work. the foreign capts you are so against, in line with that idiot jetstream, do not deserve your childish pot shots here in this professional forum.
here, all pilots are on a level playing field, even if they come from mars.

i realise that the Indian culture, inspite of having many outstanding values, is devoid of fairness and accountability and is all about who you know, or how much you have. in the rest of the world (almost), a pilots pedigree is measured by his performance and track record.
if you cannot cultivate respect amongst your fellow professionals on the basic matter of race or nationality, you are better off chewing paan, than flying aeroplanes.

[IndAir967]

a pilots licence in other parts of the world does not confer a false status on you as it does in India. (nowhere in the world is a 150 hr fresher called a capt, except in India). you have to earn your stripes through hard work. the foreign capts you are so against, in line with that idiot jetstream, do not deserve your childish pot shots here in this professional forum.
here, all pilots are on a level playing field, even if they come from mars.

i realise that the Indian culture, inspite of having many outstanding values, is devoid of fairness and accountability and is all about who you know, or how much you have. in the rest of the world (almost), a pilots pedigree is measured by his performance and track record.
if you cannot cultivate respect amongst your fellow professionals on the basic matter of race or nationality, you are better off chewing paan, than flying aeroplanes.

eh:p what are u tryin to convey ??
whom r u tryin to impress ??
when did i complain about expats in india ?
OR whom did i disrespect ?

[rdr]

Indair967

Jet Streams that was one of the best posts i got to read now a days ..
I suggest you raise awareness among public about the real reasons on why our carrier has been loosing money instead of cutting salaries..
Bonne Landings !

this was your comment on that idiot jetstreams anti foreigner post.

"for evil to succeed, all it takes is a few good men to do nothing."

this forum is not Indian, or Korean, or Russian, or any planets. if a fellow professional comes out condemning others here by virtue of nationality, its customary to cut him down, instead of ra-raing him on. and i do believe that you are a good man joining the ranks as a world aviator ultimately.

[IndAir967]

RDR
you ve got me wrong.. i had appreciated jet streams for some points
which he brought out and which even i wanted to stress on like bad route
planning .. improper marketting strategy .. and a lot of management flaws that were and are in AI and that desperately needs to be changed to see the greens ..
I never was and never will talk about expats flying in india and I have no issues with it..
According to me :-
AVIATION WAS NEVER OR NEITHER WILL BE AN ABOUT AN STATE, COUNTRY OR A REGION.. IT IS AN GLOBAL INDUSTRY AND IS INTER-DEPENDENT ON PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD !
Bonne Landings :ok:

[casper63]

Dear Rdr,

Please read Top Tub's Post. You will surely like to take back your previous post. Top Tub may be an exceptional pilot(at least he thinks so) but he has no manners. His anti India campaign is disgusting. He calls others xenophobic but he himself is the worst example. I have time again requested him not to criticise all Indian pilots in general, based on his sour experience with one airline.

And Mr Top Tub if you are still around please take your own advise and stay away and have a drink. It would surely do good to your High BP. If you abuse all Indians pilots, we can surely retaliate in good measure. But I think some of us has more character than you and the God's own country you disgrace. :)

Thanks

[jimmygill]

Seems to me, that answer to that question is yes in many cases. I will try to present my view on what he has written.

*1)Artificially Created Pilot Shortage*: During the tenure of Mr V.Thulasidas as the CMD, brand new aircraft worth billions of dollars, both Boeing777s & 737s were kept parked on the ground for months due to an acute shortage of Pilots (Captains)- resulting in hundreds of crores of losses
every month. This in spite of having hundreds of qualified Indian Co-pilots who could have been promoted to fill vacancies of Captains but were not. Who was responsible for the stoppage of training for these co-pilots preventing their promotions - thus resulting in the free hand given to officials in Air India, DGCA & the Ministry of Civil Aviation to give the go ahead to recruit Expatriates?

Here qualified Indian co-pilots mean, pilots available with Air India who have been flying from the right seat and have an ALTP (At least 1500 hrs, legal minimum, flight time, and may be few thousand company minimum). 150 hrs pilots cannot be captains of an airliner in any country I am aware of, specifically not in India. Minimum legal flight time required for CPL in India is 200 hrs. I don't understand what to make out of 150 hrs claim, put in by so many of posters here.

It is only natural to be a bit intolerant if one's 'job' / 'chances of promotion' / 'chances of job' is taken away by an Expat. I am not sure if it can be described as xenophobic. Nevertheless this part of the post only refers to AI's possible short sightedness, miss-management which lead to having a shortage of trained captains. It also indicates that there may be some corruption involving recruiting agencies, AI and/or Ministry Officials.

*2)Preferential Treatment of Foreigners*: How is it today that the cash strapped airline can pay foreign pilots ( some 180 + in number) their full
salaries on time and not retrench even a single one even though it claims its own national pilots are "underutilized" and the company has not been paying 31000 Indian employees their full salaries since August ?


Expats are paid as per the demand-supply situation. It turns out that expats get paid more than the Indian counterpart. Part of this owes to demand-supply situation (actual/apparent), and part to contractual nature of engagement. Arguing against preferential treatment, or pointing out that preferential treatment may be because of corruption/malpractice/mismanagement cannot be termed xenophobic either.

*All this, inspite of the fact that all foreign pilots are junior to Indians in seniority !* ( I have nothing PERSONAL against any expat and some of the ones I have flown with are not only good professionals but also good human beings. The point I am making is one of home grown discrimination in my own country )

In an organisation where seniority is the only metric for promotion, its really frustrating that some arrangement may exist to bypass that metric. After all it doesn't pay to be a good professional in Air India. It is easy to read from the parenthesis that writer is not xenophobic at all. He is pointing out to discrimination extended to him or his class in his own homeland.

Why are expat pilots given preferential treatment over Indians even at the cost of safety - by allowing them to be certified by foreign medical boards with medical standards that are far lower than those prescribed by the
Indian DGCA for Indian pilots? There are foreigners flying in Air India who would have failed even Air India's own company pre employment medical tests.


This question becomes interesting, because of the word 'safety'. Here only aspect of safety being addressed is physical fitness. In India physical fitness is ascertained by Air Force Medical boards. I won't say they are strict. I will say they are unreasonable, you really can't reason them. If the machinery in India perceives that a ATPL cannot be issued without these physicals, then none should be allowed to exercise the same privileges. In case they think that ATPL can be issued without these physicals then its a blatant discrimination against Indian pilots, well by their own government. After all a pilots right to livelihood is closely attached to his getting a Fit to fly endorsement on these physicals. Such a discrimination should not be taken lightly.

*Since when have foreigners become more important in a Government run company ?*

The key point is already in bold.

"a B777 captain who I know personally, joined AI without a single hour as PIC ,fudged his log book, proudly "created" a few hundred hours extra prior to joining and got a rubber seal made to certify his logbook"/QUOTE]

Desperate circumstances require desperate measures.

[QUOTE]*3)Massive Tax Breaks Expats are paid their salaries through their
placement firms in offshore destinations. Thus hundreds of crores worth of
income tax is denied to the Indian exchequer. Ironically the CMD and his
Minister want a bailout to save these very jobs !!



Why should the taxpayer save such jobs? At least I cannot come to any answer.

So all this talk of xenophobia seems quiet baseless. Unless of course if the posters happen to know jetstreams in person and have found him xenopobic.

[weido_salt]

jimmygill

Take the point re the Indian medical examination.

"I will say they are unreasonable, you really can't reason them."

You and every Indian must know an Indian pilot who has been lost to the industry prematurely through loss of a medical. I.E., lost their jobs but in all probability would have kept their jobs under another licensing system..

Now the strike before AI's strike was about 2 guys loosing their jobs. Well you can beat a lot more guys have lost their jobs due to the intransigence of the Indian military medical board and possibly been replaced by a foreigner.

Would this not be a better reason to go on strike, if the wiff of mutiny is in air? To try and get the playing field levelled somewhat and use ICAO for medical acceptance standards in India? Very often the first sign of heart disease for is cardiac arrest and it doesn't always single out the unfit among us. Or is it you find the foreigner issue an easier target?

Show some real balls and take on the DGCA.

[jimmygill]

jimmygill

Take the point re the Indian medical examination.

"I will say they are unreasonable, you really can't reason them."

You and every Indian must know an Indian pilot who has been lost to the industry prematurely through loss of a medical. I.E., lost their jobs but in all probability would have kept their jobs under another licensing system..

Now the strike before AI's strike was about 2 guys loosing their jobs. Well you can beat a lot more guys have lost their jobs due to the intransigence of the Indian military medical board and possibly been replaced by a foreigner.

Would this not be a better reason to go on strike, if the wiff of mutiny is in air? To try and get the playing field levelled somewhat and use ICAO for medical acceptance standards in India? Very often the first sign of heart disease for is cardiac arrest and it doesn't always single out the unfit among us. Or is it you find the foreigner issue an easier target?

Show some real balls and take on the DGCA.

Yes, I agree with you that working towards getting a level playing field should be a top priority for Indian pilots, not specifically limited to physicals. All the fuss about expatriates taking jobs is actually a direct result of neglecting this primary issue.

But pointing to this issue, you have pointed out an aspect of contemporary Indian culture, which has been brought to notice by several experts. The contemporary India culture severely downplays the need of common goods and services. Common goods and common services are neglected by almost everyone.

A level playing field is a common good, it will be neglected under current Indian perceptions. I don't need to quote visible examples of neglect of common goods and services in India. Anyone who has been to India will know what I am talking about. Getting Indian medical standards to the same level as ICAO is a common good, nobody really wants to work towards it.

And yes its easier to talk about the expat's issue, a few articles in media, 2 or 3 clips in news, small demonstration will be more than good enough to capture the attention of legislature. And thats why it was so easy to get DGCA to setup a July 2010 deadline for removing Expats. DGCA or minister can also do it Suo-Motto, without any need of agitation/representation from Indian pilots.

If I remember properly Boston Tea Party to get rid of the overseas influence of the Queen on America was much easier as compared to getting a level playing field for African-Americans. History is replete with such examples, getting rid of foreigners is much easier than getting rid of own deficiencies, at least in a democracy.

So as long as I am not the one who lost his job due to the too higher than necessary standards, I am not going to protest. Sad, but true. But if I was back there in early 1900s fighting the English out of India, it would have been easier for me to mutiny. But now in contemporary India, when democracy has given a veil of legitimacy to the governance things are harder than ever.

Just for the matter of record. Politically I am for freedom of Labor to move from one region of earth to another without any barrier, just like capital can flow without any barrier. So in my ideal world there will be so many expats in so many places, that the word expat itself will be at a loss of meaning. But in this not so Ideal world, what should be the wise way to sruvive?

PS:To all pilots operating in India, here is a chance to, say something about the Air Regulations
http://dgca.nic.in/dgca/Public%20Notice%20ARAP.pdf

[johnriketes]

jimmygill

A good post indeed.

India certainly is a vast land and a land of contrasts.

It is also a land of contradictions it seems.

"And thats why it was so easy to get DGCA to setup a July 2010 deadline for removing Expats."

I have also heard this. I have also read that Indian companies are still advertising for pilots, aimed at expats, some ads stating a 3 year contract. What is the truth, does anyone know?

[IndAir967]

I have also heard this. I have also read that Indian companies are still advertising for pilots, aimed at expats, some ads stating a 3 year contract. What is the truth, does anyone know?

You are right..
Expats are being hired.. and let me tell u this..
Expats will continue to be hired..
Its impossible for most of the VT- Airlines except IC i guess to operate
completely with out expats..
July 2010 is just another month and year in the calendar
it doesnt signify any thing..
Enjoy your stay in India and yes please dont forget to read
your tail no. upon first contact .. ;)
Bonne Landings !:ok: