The Correct Treatment Of Ex Military Personnel

[Babaleka]

There have been a number of threads that have either alluded towards this subject or discussed it in part. The most recent being “10% of Prisoner are ex military”. Now perhaps is the time to give the subject a separate thread and devote some discussion specifically to it.
To set the scene : I am ex military .Although my war ended a good few years ago I have spent the best part of the last seven years working in conflict areas where ex servicemen (most of them ex British Defence Force ) provide the security cover .At my age it is now the sons of friends and acquaintances that speak of the difficulties their sons are having as they leave the Military. I believe that the same difficulties people of my generation faced are the same that this generation is facing.
As I see it there are two main areas of difficulty .One is that of Personnel coming back that have been traumatised through physical or mental injury .The other , the one I want to address is that of trying to adjust , to fit in to civvy street.
Ex Servicemen leave having acquired specialised skills and get frustrated because they either cannot find a job or cannot find a job where they can use these skills. They find it difficult relating to people who are not ex servicemen and struggle to find out why this is so.
But what is the essence of all this? After much discussion and soul searching a good friend of mine suggested that it is because in the Military there is an unwritten Code of Conduct that we all knew and followed. When we move to Civvy Street we find that such a Code does not exist and nothing we do or say will ever make it exist. Sure in the Military there are jealousies and bitterness and the Military version of the dreaded Corporate Politics is there for all to see but at the end of the day we all knew of that unwritten Code of Conduct and tried to abide by it.
The majority of ex-servicemen succeed, some fail but undoubtedly all of have struggled in some way.
I believe there are solutions to this , but rather than detail my thoughts here , for now I would rather submit this short narrative for discussion.

[minigundiplomat]

The shocking fact of the 1982 Falklands War is that more have susequently taken their own life, than died in the conflict. With recent deployments in Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan, we are building up a timebomb of mental disorders for the future.

I believe that regional veteran affairs centres such as those set up in the USA and Australia following the Vietnam war are the way ahead.

Charities and organisations such as Combat Stress and the RBL do a fantastic job of supporting veterans, but only if they know where they are, or what they need.

Centres could offer help with benefits/housing, counselling and first line mental health provision, as well as organising support groups.

It may all sound a bit woolly, but having dealt a great deal with veterans recently, they are best placed to help and support each other. There are a lot of organisations that offer support to veterans, but what is required is a joined up solution to pull all the threads together. I believe that veteran affairs centres offer this.

It is time for the government to open its chequebook and repay the debt on behalf of a grateful nation. If they can reduce the prison population by 10%, it makes economic sense anyway!

MGD

(Awaiting approval of an epetition from No 10 - I will post the link when confirmed)

[Shack37]

Babaleka,
My "war" probably ended a lot earlier than yours but, even back then, there was a certain worry about leaving the mob and entering the unknown of "civvy street", especially as someone who joined almost directly from school at 16 yrs old.

That said, we had mates leaving constantly at the end of their time and there was always feedback so that, in my case at least, you could find yourself working in the same company as old service mates. As a result of this feedback I had the luck to find an employer involved in offshore survey and positioning work which included as the norm, working abroad and spending a lot of time away from home so it suited both me and my new employer.

The help offered on leaving is/was not the greatest. My adviser told me at interview that, according to my aptitude test results, I was suited to tree surgery or the police service. Suffice it to say that, I am 5´2" and at that time the minimum height for the (then) RUC was 5´11" and as ex RAF electronics I didn´t see myself hacking lumps off trees.

An armourer friend was told he`d be a great typewriter repair man.

There has to be feedback from demobbed mates to those still serving re what´s available other than a security job in Iraq.

s37

[What Limits]

I do think that resettlement should start much earlier in your career. In fact I feel that it should start after about 3 years service.

All military qualifications should be recognisable to civilians. It would be best if we did civvy quals whilst still in. I personally made sure that I had my ATPL, a NEBOSH Health and Safety course and a computer maintenance engineer qualification before I left. Most of that effort was on my part.

The resettlement process 10 years ago was not adequate although I was lucky and managed to get my entitlement.

The briefings in particular had little or no bearing on the reality of civvy street.

Why is there no Veterans Administration or Hospitals equivalent in this country?

Why are there no Retired Military benefits in this country?

For country read Ex Mil UK.

[Pontius Navigator]

One excellent way of re-integration into the civilian environment is to join a civilian service (not military) organsation such a Lions, Roundtable, Rotary, Soroptomists and so on.

In a base area there will already be a number of ex-Service as members and they will automatically help you integrate. I don't mean they have to actually help but their presence will reassure others that you will fit in.

We have several ex-Service in our club, mostly RAF but 2 RN, and they are all, without exception, stalwarts of the club. Two have left, a dentist and a hand-brake expert, and they were different :).

[CirrusF]

For those who have "learnt a trade" in the military, there is little need for resettlement, as these skills are very marketable. And moreover, why should the military pay to resettle skilled personnel that they have trained themselves?

IMO the military system mostly fails the infantry, who are currently the most in demand for operations, who take the most risks and casualties, yet are not particularly well-paid while they are in service, and do not learn many skills which are directly marketable once they are considered "too old" to serve any longer. The resettlement budget should be primarily concentrated on the infantry.

[Babaleka]

Minigundiplomat

"There are a lot of organisations that offer support to veterans, but what is required is a joined up solution to pull all the threads together. I believe that veteran affairs centres offer this."

and

"we are building up a timebomb of mental disorders for the future".

I couldn't agree more : Why not form a Steering Committee comprised of representatives from the Services , Ex Mil , Commerce and Industry , and Govt to look in to this ?

Ex Infantry have great Leadership skills but they alone are not enough . My advice would be to start thinking about tertiary education , what you want to do , the Programmes that are available and how passing the Programme will benefit you. It's never too late to start - I know ,at the ripe old age of 53 I got my Masters.

A point made earlier on was "having feedback from demobbed mates". I agree but not necessarily recently demobbed , certainly ex Mil.

It is one thing helping ex Mil prepare for leaving . But what about talking to prospective employers and employment agencies with a view to getting them to understand the unique dynamics associated with ex Mil.

It really is not that complicated : What veterans need is to be treated with the respect they deserve and given a fair crack at life. Is that really too much to ask ?

[Rupertnav]

I left the Air Force (at my 38 point) 20-odd years ago. I was moving overseas (my wife was a Captain in the USAF) so 'resettlement' for me meant the obligatory (and not very useful) week of briefings in London and an extension to my accrued annual and terminal leave. - The latter was very welcome ;)

Had I intended to stay in the UK, then I would have been eligible for (and would have taken the offer of) funding for a Master's degree. - I didn't have a bachelors (I joined as a Direct Entrant) but like all others who had completed a PC, I was deemed to be eligible to go straight to a Master's programme.

I went to the US and lived there for 3 years. I had a number of jobs (none of which was spectacularly well-paid) and I found that my previous service (in the RAF) meant 'Jack Sh*t' when I was looking for a job. - "You ain't got a 4-year college degree, so [ if you're lucky] you can have a job flipping burgers." Life wasn't quite that bad (though I did manage to do quite a bit of menial work. - I worked as a retail manager (are you being served?;)) as a stockbroker (over-rated job) and as an ice-cream salesman at a professional Baseball club (got to see all the games for free.) We moved 3 times in 3 years.

Then we returned to the UK. - The USAF posters are every bit as incompetent as Air Sec's department - and they decided my wife hadn't been overseas for a long time, so we should go to England ... OK.

When we got back, I tried to avail myself of the resettlement offer from HMG of a Master's course at uni .... and was told: "Oh, you've left it too late!" (I don't see why, but I was - after all - dealing with HMG which is as tight as a fishes ar8e at 40 fathoms ... and that's watertight.)

I did the Master's course anyway (cost me 10k + a year's loss of income), worked as a teacher in a school for 18 months, ran a small company for a year, renovated a house (should've done building as a resettlement course) taught in a prison for 4 years, then went back to uni to read law.

Then -at the end of that course - we moved again. To Belgium. My wife's career has gone fairly well, but we've moved very many times. - Belgium, then Germany, then Mississippi, then back to Germany - where we will stay until she retires for the second time, after which we'll live in Europe (probably in germany) for half the year and in Florida for the winter.

'Resettlement' for me was a waste of time. Not a problem.

When my wife retired from the USAF (in 94) the resettlement facilities she was offered were impressive. The Americans have a 'Transition Assistance Program' which is available until the retiree is established in a new career. - They also encourage military retirees to join the US Civil Service. (And indeed, such retirees receive preferential treatment ... jobs for the boys (and girls.)

The UK does offer RO jobs - but they're often not very well paid, nor are there very many of them.

My wife hired a new employee last month. That individual retired from the US Army as a Master Sergeant (Chief Tech) and 'rolled over' into a job making about 40k a year. She didn't get the job just because she was retired military - she still had to compete and she had to be the best candidate at interview - but her previous military service gave her a 'leg up' when it came to getting the interview. The Americans do try to look after their own.

Compare what we get as 'retirees':

From the Royal Air Force, I get a pension. 25% of my base pay at my ORD.
That's it. No support, no 'membership' - I was (originally) on the 'retired reserve'- but with no connections with the Air Force.

I'm not really bothered that I can't shop at NAAFI ... but I can't. I retired. - "Now go away and do your own thing."

My wife got a 50% of Base Pay pension after 20 years. She also got a retiree ID card (and I got one too, as a family member.) We have access to all US military bases, access to all facilities (including US medical facilities) on those bases (as well as access to Hospitals run by the Veteran's administration) and health insurance for life (admittedly, not a great problem in the UK ... where you have the NHS. :yuk:

Some of what the US govt gives my wife costs them money. - But it's argued that she is due those benefits as 'payback' for the chunk of her life she spent in the service of the nation.

Some of what they give her provides money. AAFES (The Army and Air Force Exchange Service [NAAFI +] ploughs back 60% of its profits into Morale, Welfare and Recreation projects and the 'ploughback'is heavily biased into MWR at the local shop. - When we were at Kirtland AFB (New Mexico) there were significant numbers of retired senior enlisted and commissioned personnel in the local area. Those retirees probably have a spending power significantly higher than that of the average airman and the amount they paid into MWR at KAFB was impressive.

The US government doesn't get everything (relating to retirees) right, but it does, at least, acknowledge that they exist. When I go to a US military facility, I'm treated almost as an 'honoured guest'

I don't know what wold happen if I showed up at a military installation in the UK. I'd probably be told to 'bugger off'.

I've avoided the question of the particular needs of personnel suffering from PTSD or other ailments; I'm not qualified to talk about them.

I am, however, retired military. And I'm well aware that I am treated with more respect by military organisations in the US (and in Germany, where I visit Bundeswehr Kasernen fairly frequently) than I could ever hope to receive in the UK.

It doesn't cost a whole lot to recognise the service to the nation provided by retirees (or veterans, call them what you will.) It would cost the nation a great deal to compensate adequately those who served and who were hurt ... "Ich drück mir die Daumen", but I doubt that will happen in a hurry.

The first step (IMO) is to recognise that retirees and veterans (those who served, but maybe didn't serve for long enough to retire or to be invalided out) not only exist, but are owed a debt (in honour, if not in gold) by those they served.

[Riskman]

Charities and organisations such as Combat Stress and the RBL do a fantastic job of supporting veterans, but only if they know where they are, or what they need.

but only if they know where they are, or what they need

MGD, you have hit the nail on the head. I have long thought there ought to be some means whereby the service or regiment-specific associations could keep track of service-leavers and also maintain a referral route to the RBL and other pan-service organisations. However if people want to sever all links with the military when they leave, as some do, it makes it impossible to know subsequently if they are in need or not (or on the way to jail).

I'm with you on this one:ok:

R

[Dengue_Dude]

One of my pre-departure briefs was from Cootes, they were helping the clients to identify their skills, how to phrase CVs etc etc.

I think they lost me when they said that often in the Government's eyes (and in legal status in a few areas) ex-Servicemen and ex-offenders were regarded as the same. I don't know if it's the same now (I left in 94).

I don't know about EX offenders, but I was (and still am to some extent) offended. Sums it up really.

When I was recently made redundant, I found out that despite paying in since 1968, I could get nothing, zilch, nada from the 'system', yet drongos who put nothing in and never will, can have everything.

Do you really wonder that nothing 'concrete' cohesive or organised happens for ex-servicemen? Par for the course, and only will be done when 'the horse has bolted'.

It's shabby treatment. Best of luck to anyone who can swing a change.

[minigundiplomat]

Ive been trying to track down 20 ex-Odiham vets/service leavers/former military*. Even knowing them and how to get hold of them, it hasn't been an easy task.
Veteran Affairs Centres could be outside the wire on existing military facilities where possible, with additional centres in areas with a large urban population (London, Glasgow, Manchester, Newcastle etc). This would save the govt money, as they already own the infrastructure.

These centres could pull all the threads together to provide:

Advice
Access to Org's such as Combat Stress/RBL/H4H
Housing Advice
JPA Pension Enquiries/Help
Legal Advice (Injuries/Housing etc)
Counselling
Referral for Mental Health provision
Issue Veteran ID's
Restore a dignified and befitting approach to military vets.
Maintain a database and ensure those 'at risk' are monitored, counselled or provided with shelter.
Provide resettlement advice - ELC claims


*Delete according to your preference.

[Rigga]

MGD,

All of these things, can be found by going to RAFA, RNA or RBL. Why would you want to repeat these centres?

One thing that differs when you walk into a RAF camp after you have left the service "Restore a dignified and befitting approach to military vets." In my experience this doesn't happen - you are "Civvy scum".

[Babaleka]

Rigga,

Forgive my ignorance - I am not ex British Defence Force.

What do RAFA , RNA and RBL stand for ?

[ArthurR]

Babaleka you Quote :

I am ex military .Although my war ended a good few years ago

then you quote:

Forgive my ignorance - I am not ex British Defence Force

So just what military where you, I did notice a Belfast location. Sort of makes you wonder.

Anyway RAFA, is Royal Air Force Association.
RNA, Royal Naval Association.
and RBL, Royal British Legion.


But I tend to agree with most on your first thread, I to found things a bit stressful when I first came out of the forces, a totally different attitude, something I had to adjust too, It took a while, but one of the hardest things to get used to is the lack of comradeship, its something that was always there in the Military, and then all of a sudden its gone.

[Babaleka]

ArthurR,

Fair point -But I don't want this to be a discussion about myself so if you really want details PM me and I will give them to you.

Many thanks for your info .

[Jabba_TG12]

"I think they lost me when they said that often in the Government's eyes (and in legal status in a few areas) ex-Servicemen and ex-offenders were regarded as the same. I don't know if it's the same now (I left in 94).

I don't know about EX offenders, but I was (and still am to some extent) offended. Sums it up really."

I shouldnt really be surprised by this, as I long held the view in uniform that some of the inmates had been given a bit more rope than service personnel, but I have to say, if this is real, then its disgusting.

I left in 99 and it felt like resettlement was not taken as seriously as it could have been. Essentially a series of box ticking exercises for you to work out what you DIDNT want to do when you left the service! Thankfully, I managed to get into Defence IT and build up some relevant expertise which was marketable at the time and that has allowed me to build on that to get to where I am now... but for one different posting back in 1990, it could have turned out so very different.

Yes, I agree, the infantry and the less skilled/no direct civilian equivalent trades should have more attention paid to them by the resettlement division. Those who'se trades do have a direct equivalent do maybe have less direct need, but there is still a moral need if nothing else to take personnel from the institutionalised environment they have been in and prepare them for going back into normal life, even if its just counselling and encouragement. For my own part, I didnt get any resettlement (not enough personnel around for me to be released for it) so I just negotiated an earlier PVR release date and found that by concentrating on the things I needed to do (job, house, transport) as a series of projects, for want of a better word, that they kept my mind off an awful lot of the what if's. By the time all these things had been done, I had been out 5 months and things were going well and I didnt look back and havent done since. Other service personnel I have worked with since, if they have asked about how difficult the transition is, I relate my own experience and encourage them to go for it if that is what they want.

I get the impression that resettlement has improved, but considering out of my first 9 year term before signing on to 22, I spent 7 years living fast and loose, I think the resettlement advice should maybe start earlier than 2 years - maybe 3 or 4 years. And, depending on what educational facilities and opportunities there are these days within the services, they definately need to be maximised. They were always there during my early career, but not publicised well enough. Once I wised up to it and signed on to 22 and got promoted, I filled the immediate 3 years before I left the service with as much relevant training and education as I could possibly do.

Now, back then, civilianisation was only just starting off, nothing like the level it is now; not as many people ended up rotating through theatres like they do these days. I guess its yet another example of the covenant being stretched to breaking. You cannot ask people to volunteer to go and catch bullets in some far away land and not give them something back, either explicitly or implicitly.

Sadly, it would seem that the old attitudes prevail. Someone put a Kipling poem up on another thread and its regrettable that over 100 years later, so much of it is still apt.