Is it just a Pprune thing?

[Flap62]

Having recently been locked out of a thread for a post which was deemed crass (fair doos, it's the moderators train set but I would of course argue my corner). I am puzzled about whether the creeping intolerance of anything which is deemed to be insensitive is something which is now commonplace or is it more apparent on this site?
Without repeating my "offence", my post made a remark which in no way denegrated the quite incredible efforts of our armed services and the sacrifices that some are forced to make. What i was perhaps alluding to was a previous post which I felt was , once again on these pages, tipping towards the overly emotional. I'm sorry if this is rather opaque but if my first post caused offence I would rather not have this thread pulled as I think this topic warrants debate.
The military has a long and established tradition of finding humour in the darkest of situations. This is never a bullying type of humour, but rather one which seeks to draw everyone together. One only had to watch any of ross Kemps Afghan dispatches or the recent Wounded programme to see countless examples of this. I increasingly find that anything posted on these pages draws a host of shocked replies, immediately demanding withdrawal. Many , if not all, of these replies coming from posters who are not connected with either the persons or incidents concerned but are willing to take offence on their behalf.
This over-sentimentality is increasingly evident on the mawkish posts which inevitably follow the crash of a light aircraft on the far side of the world killing someone we've never heard of! It seems to be a race to post condolences and cut and paste that poem about slipping the surly bloody bonds. If you knew the people fine, say something appropriate, if not try to mark their passing in your heart if you must but keep away from the keyboard.
This was especially evident on the recent thread on the Iranian airforce crash. There were several posts of the "fly to the angels dear friends" variety, which I would argue were considerably crasser than anything I might have posted, especially as the crash resulted in the deaths of members of the same military who have been killing our troops in Iraq for the last few years. I am not saying rejoice in their deaths but do we need books of condolence?
In summary, is the over-sensitivity which I perceive in Pprune common-place in the military now?
(Incidentally, is it just me or has the creeping intolerance also made Pprune a much less interesting, stimulating and amusing place to be?)

Apologies for any typo and grammar - really dodgy keyboard.

[Tourist]

100% with you on this Flaps

[Wader2]

The feeling I get is that it is better to post off-board for just the reasons you cite. You can also talk "face-to-face" tailoring your reply to one or two people and avoid being flamed by someone else.

[smo-kin-hole]

There seems to be an entirely new psychology surfacing on all the forum sites I've been on for the past few years. (Aviation, cars, bikes, religion,science, whatever...) The "Facebook" generation has gone to full disclosure. They don't have any sense of what is appropriate anymore or that what they post is going to be seen by thousands of people. Or to be more direct about it, they don't care.

There is someone with a mildly obscene name on a US forum who flames on the religion forum. Every third or fourth post is his. He does this all day long. They can't or won't get rid of him because they always seem to fall for his attacks.

I think this is only the tip of the iceburg. This site is a good deal more polite than most. Just look around. Pretty soon it'll be like being in a restaurant, hearing (or reading) all sorts of things you really, really didn't want to know about. Maybe we should get that rig from "Tommy"

"Put on your eyeshades, put in your earplugs, you know where to put the cork." But we're gonna have to take it.

[parabellum]

It may have something to do with the fact that Danny no longer owns the site, it has been sold to a commercial concern, so possibly they are calling the shots?

[sisemen]

The rot set in many, many years ago. Before I left the RAF I was serving at RAF ****** and a young techie decided to top himself in his car by means of the exhaust. Apparently he was having girlfriend problems. He was serving with *** Sqn.

One appreciates the close cameraderie on a sqn but, in days past, it was a case of auction the personal belongings, have a good few pints and then move on.

This didn't happen. I was honestly shocked at the mawkish "grieving" that took place within that sqn. The guy was relatively unknown - particularly to the officer cadre - and yet the sqn basically went into meltdown for a while because of it.

When I left to live in Australia I was again taken aback about the amount of national "grieving" with any Aussie killed in a theatre of operations.

Perhaps there is a lot to be said about the British "stiff upper lip" approach to bereavement, PTSD, etc etc etc

[Tankertrashnav]

It all seems to stem from that heap of rotting flowers and soggy paper outside Buckingham and Kensington Palaces after Diana was killed. A lot of us who couldn't understand the hysteria had to keep our heads below the parapet, and wonder why anyone could feel grief at the death of a perfect stranger. I naturally regret the death of a fellow aviator but we all understand that whereas most flying is pretty safe these days, every now and then a swift and brutal end can come to any flight. Like Flap 62 I'm not going to rush to send condolences on these occasions - lets leave that to the families and friends of the deceased.

[Jackonicko]

This propensity for public displays of mawkish sentimentality seems to me to have reached new heights following the out-pourings of grief and flower chucking that followed the death of the Princess of Wales.

Every road accident now seems to become the cause of some bizarre roadside shrine.

I do not begin to understand it.

Nor can I really fathom any reason for the way in which moderating on this section of PPRuNe seems to have become so much more heavy-handed and intrusive.

[BEagle]

I don't think it's right to compare the mawkish comments made by some about total strangers with the national feeling about the death of Diana.

The latter resulted in the main from growing public outrage at the way the palace seemed to treat her following her divorce and, in particular, at the way they handled her death until mounting public anger caused a rethink.

Yes, I also detest the frequent posting of 'High Flight' every time someone buys the farm. But in this day and age, the old stiff upper lip attitude is somewhat alien to many.

Mind you, gone are the days of "Black 1 from 4", "Go ahead 4", "Roger - Black 3 has just speared in", "Bugger. OK, Black, renumber", "Black 2", "3".

[Mr C Hinecap]

I don't think it's right to compare the mawkish comments made by some about total strangers with the national feeling about the death of Diana.

Strongly disagree. The crippling grief demonstrated by swathes of the population were totally out of proportion and have continued almost unchecked with the Cult of the Celebrity increasing year on year. The more recent celeb funerals have reinforced my belief in this and the scenes in a certain Wilts town near Lyneham underline it. Modern heroes are more likely to have eaten bugs live on television than crossed a continent and discovered cures for diseases.

[cornish-stormrider]

Beags, I do agree with what has been said and as one of the guilty ones (sometimes) I shall try to reign it in. Most of the time I write some epitaph comment or huggy thing, read it, sigh, and delete it. best place for grieving over a mate is in the bar. I remember when young ***** hung himself at the block at ***************************************** (edited to hide names etc) I think it would of helped us get over it if we had a blinding beercall after the service and auctioned off his stuff (including the car etc).

I also remember the aftermath of a very sad cfit, that was a heck of a send off (good stereo too, nice and loud).

Dammit we are (and was) the Crab, it should be stiff upper lip, none of that touchy felly crap, huge wake beercalls, laughs and morale. And when Black renumber make sure no-one tells the mess man about his bar book...

[GPMG]

Oh Beag's, please don't tell us that your a Diana supporter?

The palace gave her fair treatment in my view. Why should the Queen give a stuff about a women that had quite obviously been with a certain Major and given birth to his child whilst supposedly married to her son.

Then sold her soul to the papers and basked in their worship with her new lover (son of greengrocer).

The national outpouring was a major embarrasement for any right thinking person, it was sad and pathetic. We were called off of an excercise on sennybridge in case we had to line the streets. Thank god that they gave the task to some Welsh regiment instead.

Watching the funeral procession out of London with the flowers being hurled by sobbing idiots it suddenly dawned on me how I suddenly needed a pint, so the rest of the troop was rounded up and we did something far more worthy of our time and effort, and we did it in Noah's in Guz.

[Grabbers]

Would now be good time to mention Jade Goody? :E

[Gainesy]

Just got tea down me nose you git.:ok:

[pigsinspace]

Would now be good time to mention Jade Goody?

Is she dead?:{:{

[sisemen]

Concur. Thoughts with the family.

Duncs :ok:

....and this would be a very good example of the kind of stuff we're talking about on a thread not too far from here,

(Sorry to pick you out Duncs but it happened to be the nearest illustration)

[The B Word]

What about "Freedom of Speech"? Isn't that a fundamental right within the UK - unless it is subversive or likely to enflame violence?

:confused:

B Word

[RETDPI]

I think it was the disgustingly poorly scripted and patently insincere "People's Princess" monologue from "Call me Tony" that perhaps got many of us seriously thinking about the dilution of "British" values.


Words and phrases such as " Spin" , "Celebrity", "Dumbing Down", "Political Correctness", "Street Wise", "Human Resources ", "Minority rights", "Equal Opportunities" , "ASBO", "Cultural identity" , "Political Refugee", "Economic Migrant" and "Bonus Payment" amongst many others have all crept increasingly into our vocabularies over recent years.

I wonder why.

[Melchett01]

In summary, is the over-sensitivity which I perceive in PPRuNe common-place in the military now?


Good question - I hope not. Then again my unit seems to be a bit schizophrenic; we bend over backwards to make sure the younger guys and juniors are almost looked after and nothing upsets them. Possibly the bosses have gone a bit far. Constantly pandering to peoples' sensitivities seems to make them just that little bit precious and certainly not overly robust.

On the other hand, it's very much the law of the jungle amongst the JOs to the extent that a while back the then new boss thought that we were bullying each other. However, as a collective, we are an extremely tight-knit bunch and our 'under sensitivity' is often what keeps us going when times get tough.

This leads me to ask as a follow on to the original question - if there is over-sensitivity in the military, is it more visible within certain elements of the rank structure than others?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Perhaps there is a lot to be said about the British "stiff upper lip" approach to............PTSD, etc... What, like the "pull yourself together you coward or you'll be shot at dawn" approach? Pprune eh? Just when you think you've heard all the arrse a million monkeys could type on a million typewriters some chimp comes out and dribbles some more over his. Are you only a 'real' casualty of war if you have a limb missing then, junior sub-editor chimp?

[parabellum]

and given birth to his child whilst supposedly married to her son.



Naughty naughty!:=

Harry gets his colouring from his uncle, (Mothers side) and the dates don't match anyway, Harry was around before the major. Don't you think some creepy a'hole would have given the Daily Mirror some of Harry's DNA by now?

[sisemen]

Perhaps there is a lot to be said about the British "stiff upper lip" approach to............PTSD, etc... What, like the "pull yourself together you coward or you'll be shot at dawn" approach? PPRuNe eh? Just when you think you've heard all the arrse a million monkeys could type on a million typewriters some chimp comes out and dribbles some more over his. Are you only a 'real' casualty of war if you have a limb missing then, junior sub-editor chimp?

No, not quite that robust Stacker. You may wish to know that I have more than a passing professional interest in PTSD and research which I and others are involved in would seem to indicate that the current "bend over backwards to help" and counselling up the ying yang until the individual feels like real sh*t is not the way to go.

Sympathetic treatment with an element of "pull your socks up and start dealing with the cards that you have been dealt" seems, at this early stage, to be working well. However, it will take a long, long time before we can safely say that it is the way to go.

See - a reply which does not stoop the level of personal abuse to which you have descended.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/chimp.jpgThe Chimp

[Two's in]

What some people fail to realize, despite the warnings given on the site home page, is that we are not in some cosy Mess Annex, sharing a beer with like minded colleagues while we engage in social intercourse over common interests, with aviation being the cohesive thread. If we were, we would know what to expect from fellow mess-members: the young sprogs, the been-there-done-it-alls, the old and not so wise, the drinking team captains and the social butterflies. Armed with this knowledge we can structure and adjust our dialogue accordingly to avoid offence and maintain professionalism.

But this is not the mess - it's the internet. Nobody knows who anybody is, all "facts" are questionable until proven otherwise and certain individuals revel in troll-like behavior. After a while you get to spot it pretty quickly, but not always. So the point to all this, and there is one, is that whenever we assume we are articulating a well constructed argument to our social and professional equals, we should not be surprised when we apparently encounter the rantings and ravings of a pre-pubescent spotty youth, who when not engaged in some orgy of onanistic self-destruction via nuns-in-rubber.com, takes a few minutes out to flame the members of PPRune.

Now imagine being a Mod trying to control this - it's almost inevitable that some spirited banter can rapidly become troll-baiting or even troll-like in itself, so with deletions and bannings being the few tools avaiable to control this, you simply end up on the bad bastards list for a while. Just try not to feed the trolls and it gets easier.

[BEagle]

we should not be surprised when we apparently encounter the rantings and ravings of a pre-pubescent spotty youth, who when not engaged in some orgy of onanistic self-destruction via nuns-in-rubber.com, takes a few minutes out to flame the members of PPRuNe.

An accurate description, no doubt, of the troll :8 who pops up now and again to make abusive posts on this site. Fortunately, his modus operandi is well known and a pattern is emerging.

The golden rule is never to feed the troll. It can usually be spotted either trying to mimic a genuine member or by a daft user name and less than 5 posts. It is then soon 'disappeared'.

By the way, research indicates that the website to which Two's in refers does not, in fact, exist......:ooh:

[cornish-stormrider]

quick question from the thick seats.

What is a troll? or have I just made a (and I believe the correct term here is) Wah?

Does one have to join the fail queue?

Back onto the thread, Siseman - I like the sound of robustness in your style of treatment. I always said if i was proper sick (like prob terminal) I would want some absolute bastard for a therapist

"get up, you are not to die on my watch"
"throw up, see if I care. I will only make you clear it up"
"there is plenty worse off than you, stop feeling sorry for yourself, drop, and give me twenty"

Etc - Feel free to use if the needs arise.

[BEagle]

From Wikpedia:
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Incidentally, sage antipodean guidance about 'toughening up' can be found here:

YouTube - Toughen up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_PFtBfqmZw)

(Warning, may offend wimps)

[jordanpolonijo]

I remember travelling to that Palace to leave a single Red-Rose.

I was 9 years old.

She was a good women.

The type of women who attracts the same type of media attention today is Cheryl Cole and Jordan.

Perhaps that is why so many mourned her.

[Grabbers]

Lots of people watch EastEnders; doesn't make it good TV.

[al446]

You absolutely heartless, unfeeling, crass b****d. Great post.:ok:

[Rupertnav]

"quick question from the thick seats.

What is a troll? or have I just made a (and I believe the correct term here is) Wah?"

"From Wikpedia:
Quote:In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."


Perhaps, but if you really want to understand it, you have to look at the etymology (the bunch of Greeks who were around before Wikipaedia was thought of.)

People who troll aren't 'trolls' - Trolls live under bridges.

'Trolling' is a fishing technique. You move a small boat slowly through water, trailing baited hooks.

Sometimes, you catch a fish which is attracted to the bait; sometimes you catch a fish by foul-hooking.

Either way, it's not sport fishing.

Nothing like that peculiar British sport 'Fly Fishing'

(Why do people go fishing for flies? - The buggers are everywhere; you don't have to go and catch them. :))

I knew being a nav radar would turn out to be useful some day ... after all, navigators are the people who tell pilots where to go. The plotter usually did that, so all the nav rad was left with was the privilege of telling them why.;)

[BEagle]

jordanpolonijo, as anyone who'd had insight into the non-public, non-reported side of Diana would undoubtedly agree, you are absolutely correct.

Many of those who laid floral tributes outside the palace had also been there back in 1981 when the Prince of Wales married Lady Diana - perhaps that's why they showed such grief.

[Rupertnav]

"Lots of people watch EastEnders; doesn't make it good TV."

What are East Benders? - Are you still allowed to say things like that in the UK?

[MightyGem]

Is she dead?
Probably is now. They buried her a while back. :E

[Tankertrashnav]

BEAGLE, I don't think your acquaintance with the "great and the good" (awful phrase, but you know what I mean), has any relevance. We are not referring to those who knew Diana personally, but the multitude who had never even clapped eyes on her in the flesh and who got swept along in the hysteria. I doubt if one in a hundred of the "flower chuckers" had been there at the beginning in 1981.

This is not to knock Diana, I think she was basically a nice kid who had a rough deal in the end, but I still cant feel grief for a total stranger.

[barnstormer1968]

Hi, just read your post.

Originally by siseman
Sympathetic treatment with an element of "pull your socks up and start dealing with the cards that you have been dealt" seems, at this early stage, to be working well. However, it will take a long, long time before we can safely say that it is the way to go.

Quick question for you. Did you really mean sympathetic, or empathic?
Just asking out of curiosity, as I am sure you realise that the two approaches have markedly differing effects on the patient.

[monkeymanagement]

Jade Goody – A Biography!

1. She faced court action over thousands of pounds of unpaid rent.
2. Just hours after arriving (on Big Brother), she had flashed one of her boobs and left viewers stunned with a torrent of foul language.
3. Jade was a figure of ridicule. She was branded a “pig”, two-faced and ignorant. Rival contestants labelled her “thick” and “ugly”.
4. Viewers switched on to watch tipsy Jade strip off during a drinking game to flash her “kebab”.
5. She thought East Anglia was called East Angular, and that it was somewhere near Tunisia. And she reckoned Rio de Janeiro was a person.
6. Jade kept trotting out the clangers . . . Mona Lisa was painted by “Pistachio”, Mother Teresa was from Germany, Portugal was “in Spain” and “Saddam Hussein was a boxer”.
7. Jade put it best herself when she confessed: “I may not be the sharpest tool in the sandwich box.”
8. “If I hadn’t made it on Big Brother I would probably have been living in a council flat with my mum.”
9. Lapping up the publicity, she once told a reporter she planned to dedicate a room in her house to all her front-page covers.
10. She started dating Jack Tweed. Jade had spotted him in a nightclub before, but had no idea he was six years her junior. She was smitten from the start, and the couple had sex on their first date at London’s Sanderson Hotel.
11. Their romance was to be played out in the full glare of the public when they both went into the Celebrity Big Brother house in 2007—joined by Jade’s mum Jackiey. But the programme that made Jade almost broke her this time as she became embroiled in a race row with Bollywood star Shilpa Shetty. She ranted at the actress: “You’re not some princess in f*****g Neverland. I don’t give a s**t. You’re a normal housemate like everybody else. You need to come to terms with that.” She added: “Go back to the slums and find out what real life is about lady.”
12. Later Jade confessed she wanted to headbutt the Indian actress and branded her “Shilpa Poppadom”.
13. Jade’s popularity nosedived overnight and Ofcom received a staggering 45,000 complaints. Her perfume was removed from the shelves and her autobiography dropped by publishers.
14. She then contracted cancer and turned out to be a saint.

"She was a courageous woman both in life and death and the whole country has admired her determination to provide a bright future for her children", said Gordon, speaking on my, and the other 45,000 complainants of this racist non-contributor, behalf TVM.

The end - who said over-empathy was dead?

----------------

Edited - even the Telegraph weren't kind

Jade Goody - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/5031343/Jade-Goody.html)

(Apologies if slightly insensitive. But then when a government awards a bin man the same compensation for hurting his knee as a soldier that loses a foot....)

[Strictly Jungly]

I have to agree with the comments about "public grieving"....its almost grieving by proxy now. Whilst I have every sympathy and I certainly grasp the tragedy of any event that results in a fatality, I am never drawn to post something along the lines of "thoughts with the family" etc.

Whilst I think this is acceptable of individuals who actually know these people I tend to feel with others (i.e. strangers) it is merely a throwaway line, that they think should be said at the time.............which leads into this area:

From RETDPI:


I think it was the disgustingly poorly scripted and patently insincere "People's Princess" monologue from "Call me Tony" that perhaps got many of us seriously thinking about the dilution of "British" values.


Words and phrases such as " Spin" , "Celebrity", "Dumbing Down", "Political Correctness", "Street Wise", "Human Resources ", "Minority rights", "Equal Opportunities" , "ASBO", "Cultural identity" , "Political Refugee", "Economic Migrant" and "Bonus Payment" amongst many others have all crept increasingly into our vocabularies over recent years.

I believe they are linked!

Thank you Mr Bliar...............

[barnstormer1968]

I am still not sure whether you are in the Jade fan club or not, maybe you need to be more open and stop beating around the bush:}.

What does annoy me though, is the fact that most of us (maybe even Beags) know who she was, and many of her life's details. BUT how many of us can name more than a handful of our fallen servicemen/women in recent years?
To me this is a sad reflection on how the media try to feed us with 'heroes' to worship. Well, if Jade was a saint, then the fallen, or the chaps in the wounded TV programme are mighty emperors.

Sorry if that was a ramble, but I am sure that many of us (being military, or ex) don't go along with the idea of instant fame, or wanting to work our way to the top with no effort involved.

[GPMG]

'Harry gets his colouring from his uncle'

Good god man, are you saying that she was up to incest as well? Was nothing taboo in the eighties?

[Safeware]

Airpolice, was always my sentiment - an opportunity lost

sw