How quick to get a Chinook

[tocamak]

Not my usual habitat but was really annoyed by a chap on the radio (BBC Fivelive) from MOD Procurement who in a very patronising way said something along the lines of you can't just order a Chinook and expect to get it anytime soon. This was in respnse to a question asking if it would not be better to order new aircraft rather than the £406m upgrade just announced for existing airframes. So without breaching official secrets how long would it take to get a new one from the manafacturer or a used but good from the American military?

[the funky munky]

You can't go and buy Chinooks off the shelf. Fact. Sorry to sound like I am taking sides but you seem to think there are Chinooks sat in a hanger ready for you to buy.

If you could get one, then expect no change from $40 Million per airframe. Also what spec would you like?

The Canadians started looking at buying CH47s in 2006 and it took 3 years to get the order placed.

The quote on wikipedia is "On August 10, 2009, Canada signed a contract to purchase 15 CH-47Fs for delivery in 2013-14"

I suppose you could always ask the Italians to tack a few more onto the ICH 47 order but again don't muck about with the spec!

[tocamak]

Sorry to sound like I am taking sides but you seem to think there are Chinooks sat in a hanger ready for you to buy.


Actually I have no idea at all so hence the question, it was rather prompted by the dimissive way the MOD chap came across but I should appreciate that of course he is only the final link and that the sums will be done by someone who knows what they are doing. Thanks for the info though.

[8-15fromOdium]

According to this site (http://www.casr.ca/bg-helo-ch47.htm) the Canadians did it in less than a year:

..a US Foreign Military Sale Notice (http://www.casr.ca/doc-fms-ch47d-chinook.htm) was posted in April 2008 which resulted in the transfer to the CF Air Wing at Kandahar of 6 US Army CH-47Ds, arriving in Dec 2008 and expected to be fully operational in Feb 2009.


Further details here (http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/v2/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?cat=114&id=7567).

Wouldn't it be a good move to get US Army Chinnies, using the same route as the Canadians, and put them straight into the proposed upgrade programme and thus reducing the inevitable lack of frame availability as the mod programme goes on?

[tucumseh]

Qty 8 Mk3s ordered in 1994.

ISD - ?????


That procurement chap wasn't Quentin Davies MP was it ? He was on BBC news saying much the same thing, banging on about how they were spending money now, but also buying new aircraft. In addition to the above 8? I think a few cynics will be saying the money announced today is a long overdue Mk2 upgrade, planned many moons ago.

[tocamak]

That procurement chap wasn't Quentin Davies MP was it ?

Yes that's the chap. Didn't come across on radio very well in contrast to the Pilot who had flown an upgraded aircraft and gave a very clear view of the benefits.

[Mechta]

From talking to people at'the 'home of the Chinook', they are like hospital beds. Its not the lump of metal that's the issue, its all the support staff and facilities that go with it, to make more of them into usable entities that is lacking.

Even if you could walk into a Boeing Vertol showroom and pick up the keys to a shiny new Chinook, you would still need to recruit and train all the people needed to keep it in the air.

Some years ago, an article stated that on the then current information, the Chinook would be in service for 87 years before being completely phased out (albeit this was refering to service with the US military, who had a head start). Any guesses on today's estimate?

[Charlie Time]

Even if you could stroll down to the local Chinook dealer and buy one then it wouldn't have all the necessary extra equipment required to meet the theatre entry standard. My guess for the time would be a minimum of 3 years and more likely 5 years, assuming the US would let us jump the queue - which doesn't seem very likely.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Its not the lump of metal that's the issue, its all the support staff and facilities that go with it, to make more of them into usable entities that is lacking.

Shhhh - don't tell them about that 'logistics' stuff - they don't want to hear it!

[mick2088]

Not that I am a cynic, but the engines for the Chinooks were announced well over a month ago by Honeywell, so other than the bit about the Thales cockpits, it's not a particularly new announcement. What wasn't announced today in the MoD's press release, complete with its quote from Gp Capt Andy Turner recycled from the original Honeywell statement, is that the Chinooks won't start receiving the new engines and cockpits until next year with completion of the upgrades in something like 2016. I believe the first ones won't be available until 2011.

[Jackonicko]

May god strike me down for saying so, but though he's a floor-crossing, professional politician and a Labour minister (three of my least favourite political types), Quentin Davies is, I think, sound.

He really seems to care about getting kit to the servicemen he is charged with serving, and seems to genuinely like and respect them. And though he can be evasive, and though he is infected by the culture of spin, he has a better handle on his brief than any other defence tasked Minister I've ever had to deal with, with the obvious exception of the VERY impressive Lord Drayson.

I spoke to him at RAF Odious today, I gave him as tough a time as I could, and I was pleased to shake his hand afterwards.

I wouldn't vote for him, but in a coalition government, he'd be one of the few Labour folk I'd consider keeping.

Mick, the new engines are already here, in small (and briefly decreasing) numbers. They were incorporated on a small number of cabs by UOR, and the mod has already started to be rolled out fleet wide. The cockpit will take longer.

[mick2088]

I know some engines came via an original UOR covering some (eight?) Chinooks, but quoting the Honeywell release (Honeywell to Provide New T55 Engines for U.K.'s Ministry of Defense Chinook Fleet (http://www51.honeywell.com/honeywell/news-events/press-releases-details/08.12.09Chinook.html), it mentioned that the extra engines (announced today) wouldn't begin to be fitted until next year and would "be acquired in the next five years" (multi-year contract?). Perhaps it changed.

[Grimweasel]

Good to meet you today Jacko and put a face to the name - I, of course, will remain anonymous!! (Coach journey??!!)

[Jackonicko]

You too, Mr Weasel. But are you sure it was me? There were a lot of inky fingered scribes at Odiham today.

[163627]

As an interested observer looking in from the outside at the whole upgrade issue; could someone in the know please explain why every country (except the UK) that is buying new Chinooks or upgrading their present fleet are buying the F model but the RAF are not. Is this another British "lets do it on the cheap" bodge job that will end up costing us more in the long term?

[aviate1138]

Thread drift but brief.

Who owns the white Merlin [EH101] with the red tail? Just curious as it flew over the Surrey Hills a few times yesterday aiming at Odiham.

[ProfessionalStudent]

This one?

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_S-92_UK_Coast_Guard_lg.jpg

Did it have great big ears and a trunk? If it did, it was definitely a Merlin.

[ProfessionalStudent]

I do wish people would concentrate on the positives rather than just jump on the "buy more" bandwagon. Yes, we could do with more frames, but the Mk3s are coming and we've all seen the mistake made when the MOD purchased the Danish Merlins rather than investing in a proper spares package for the ones it already had.

If we were to go ahead and purchase more CH47s, we would have to wait some time as the small numbers we would potentially get would be a drop in the ocean compared to some of the big orders floating about. We have no special relationship. We aren't a preferred customer (despite being the world authority on CH47 operations - Boeing's words). We have no sway. Get over it and look for other solutions.

Speaking as someone who works at Odious, these mods are welcome (and long overdue) and provide improvements in capability which we are looking forward to having completed. As long as the mod programme does not affect the numbers on the line too badly, bring it on.

[leader12uk]

Who owns the white Merlin [EH101] with the red tail? Just curious as it flew over the Surrey Hills a few times yesterday aiming at Odiham

Are you sure it wasnt this, it is based at blackbushe so it would seem like it would be going to Odiham.

S92 Departing Denham :: a1.jpg :: Fotopic.Net (http://pics-by-simon.fotoblog.co.uk/p54850398.html)

[ARINC]

First Julius cab due to start in November

[mick2088]

That is the whole thing, including the glass cockpit? If so, pretty fast to begin work.

[VfrpilotPB/2]

some of the posters here are making comments about inefective types working for the MoD, well I sent off a very starchy letter to my local MP one Jack(waste of space)Straw, who duly and as expected acknowledged my communication and told me he had passed it on to the correct department, low and behold some 8 weeks later I have another letter from the still inefective Jack Straw who merely passed a photocopy of anoriginal to me, but it was a four page reply from our equally total ****e brained Minister of Defense, making much light of my starchyness and thanking me to offer to pay for kit to protect the Army lads, then going on to tell me that we have enough kit to complete the job, in fact we have Helicopters doing very little on some days, ah I feel that must be when the Brown Fellow decides to arrive and have a bit of a look around.

It really beggers belief that we have a Minister of Defense who obviously is not up to the mark, or even able to understand what is going on out there in Sand Land.

Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb

[hulahoop7]

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | RAF Chinooks to be upgraded for Afghanistan (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/RafChinooksToBeUpgradedForAfghanistan.htm)

Looks like the MOD can't count.. or are only 36 being upgraded?

"Following the loss of two RAF Chinooks in Afghanistan in August the British fleet currently stands at a total of 36, all of which will be upgraded with the new, more powerful engines"

[whowhenwhy]

Just to point out, it's not the Julius mk4 cab that's arriving in November, it's the mk3R. Julius will be a little longer coming. In terms of buying new chinnies, my understanding was that when the requirement for more SH started coming into the media a few years ago, MOD did ask Boeing and the DoD for more, but we were told to get in line behind everyone else that had seen what we were doing with ours and bought some. Something like a 5 to 6 year waiting list, so we bought the Danish Merlins instead! Personally I think we should have waited rather than waste money on more scrap metal for the other JHC unit!!!!

[aviate1138]

Quick drift

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/Picture26-1.jpg

As seen from below. South of Farnham and on the same track as the majority of Wokkas/Apaches/Lynx' aiming at Odiham. Sorry about crude repaint of HMCG original.

All those useless HMG grant aided wind turbines could have been uprated Wokkas.

[mick2088]

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | RAF Chinooks to be upgraded for Afghanistan

Looks like the MOD can't count.. or are only 36 being upgraded?

"Following the loss of two RAF Chinooks in Afghanistan in August the British fleet currently stands at a total of 36, all of which will be upgraded with the new, more powerful engines"

According to the last parliamentary questions on the UK's helicopter fleet published in Hansard, there were 40 Chinook HC2/2As in RAF service as of 30 June. Now minus the two in Afghanistan, that's 38. A further two are now missing from the number.

Just to point out, it's not the Julius mk4 cab that's arriving in November, it's the mk3R. Julius will be a little longer coming.

So it is moreorless as I originally said for those covered under Project Julius that have just been announced I was basing my dates on those, I think given by Jane's, when funding was approved for Julius last month - obviously minus anything happening to the HC3s or the previous UOR. Flight Global is now reporting that funding is being sought to buy further Chinooks to replace the two lost in Afghanistan with Davies suggesting that it might be more.

UK eyes procurement of additional Chinook helicopters (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/09/25/332785/uk-eyes-procurement-of-additional-chinook-helicopters.html)

MOD did ask Boeing and the DoD for more, but we were told to get in line behind everyone else that had seen what we were doing with ours and bought some. Something like a 5 to 6 year waiting list, so we bought the Danish Merlins instead!

If that is true, then I wonder why the MoD didn't bother pointing that out about waiting lists when it started getting press coverage over its helicopter procurement.

[whowhenwhy]

Wouldn't look good to offer the media the opportunity to see that the special relationship doesn't go both ways!

[Grimweasel]

LOL @ Jacko!!

Well, Mr Flight International pointed you out to me, so I guess it must have been you? Black Shirt?? :)

[Evalu8ter]

The "Turncoat" is quite right. There is no way of purchasing a "new" CH47 nowadays (outside Japan) that is a CH47D spec. So, any attrition buy to replace the two combat losses will either need to be US Army CHAPS ac or a Julius-configured F. If you're going to produce such a chimera, you need to buy substantially more than 2 given the "fleet within fleet" nightmare that small fleets produce (think Merlin Mk3A....). Therefore, let's get the slots and get a load while the book's open.

The -714 engine confusion is due to us buying them in 3 tranches; the first lot came with the Mk3, we purchased a small batch (under UOR) but only fitted one trials ac with them until recently, and now we've made the further purchase for the Julius fleet.

If I were a cynic, I'd argue that the MoD doesn't want to remind you of waiting lists given that the MoD would have been receiving SABR CH47 about now if this government hadn't clawed £1.5Bn out of FRC 4 years ago and that Boeing allegedly warned the UK over slots (and offered Ds at a discount) before the D to F switchover.