RAF recruitment - no vacancies

[Saintsman]

My son went to his local RAF recruitment office today to be told that there were no vacancies except for Dental Nurse and to try again in the new year.

Its due to the recession apparently and people are joining up because there are no jobs.

Good for the RAF I suppose.

[Toddington Ted]

It is rather more complicated than that (as is to be expected these days!) and is due in part to the increasing requirement to make savings. The relatively recent surge in RAF recruitment has been quite successful (I am not based at IofR but live in the 1960s fun palace across the road) and we are currently experiencing that surge in Phase II training. However, it has been decided that pretty well everything is "on the table" savings-wise and recruiting targets, having been successfully met, can now be reduced (stop-go, stop-go etc). The recession has also had an effect on retaining personnel who might otherwise leave but such things are not always that easy to measure. I understand that this situation regarding recruiting is only temporary but, given the rumours that abound in the public sector regarding savage cuts etc, I am sure other Ppruners can provide a more accurate answer. Retention isn't an issue with me personally as I start my resettlement at the end of November. :ok:

[airborne_artist]

Retention isn't an issue with me personally as I start my resettlement at the end of November.

Surely you can get a job in uniform with the pongos? Then you'll have done all three services in one lifetime :ok:

The RN has for some time been running waiting lists of 10-20 months for some ratings specialisations, a far cry from my application process, which took about 20 weeks from filling in the first form to marching up from the Higher Ferry.

[Toddington Ted]

AA: Oh no; it is far worse than that. I am (if PPPA get their act together) to become a Burnham Lecturer so I will be blunter than I am now, indeed blunter than a blunt thing in Bluntland. However, as there will still be RAF aircraft flying around the circuit outside my classroom window and the students will all be RAF officers then I won't have cut all my ties with the Military aviation world after too many years to mention (but not as many as some of the old sweats frequenting this forum).

But going back to the thread, there are definite moves afoot to try and avoid RAF students holding between Phase 1 and Phase 2 trg (it is expensive but not always wasteful to the student if the "hold" is worthwhile) so this is also bound to result in reduced recruiting whilst the trg pipeline is adjusted yet again. That said people are leaving all the time and recruiting will improve again - at least I hope so Saintsman.

[watson1991]

I was in a similar situation, though i applied when they where open i then found out that once i passed my first test that i would have to wait because it had been closed, i am still waiting almost A year later and may have to resit the first test again if i am waiting over a year.

[Al-Berr]

I heard a rumour that 140 students will pass through IOT this year! :eek:

There were 120 odd on my IOT back in the day!!!!!

[Biggus]

When I went through IOT each entry consisted of 2 Sqns of 8 flights, each of which had about 10 cadets, so a total of about 160 cadets on day 1 of the course.

[Squirrel 41]

Al_Berr

I don't know but wouldn't be surprised - it's a small organisation, and it is likely to get (potentially quite a lot) smaller. It begins to beg the question of whether we should - like the Aussies, though whether the university bit is required - go down the route of a single officer training academy.

S41

[Aerouk]

A friend of mine was selected for the apprenticeship scheme about 11months ago, he still hasn't had a start date.

[dagowly]

I heard a rumour that 140 students will pass through IOT this year!

There were 120 odd on my IOT back in the day!!!!!

And the rest. Due to the surge courses being 'successful' and the re-introduction of no.2 mess, an IOT course has about 150 people on it usually, so on the basis that around 130 average will pass the course, and the graduation is every 11 weeks, probably around 500 a year? Its 9 courses over 2 years they work on. JATCC (air traffic course) is backed up but due to the amount being re-coursed, more and more people are on hold than most places can deal with. We had 3 holding officers at once and we just couldn't do anything with them. The FOTC (flight ops officer course) is backed up by a year on their course as they only train 9 people on its 14 week course. Saying that, our branch is STILL massively undermanned and to top it off, air command keeps sending more and more OOA.

[cheesedoff]

14 weeks FOTC? That long how to learn to be obtuse and push a pencil? wow......

[Grabbers]

I always thought that being obtuse was the required aptitude for Flt Ops Off's. :E

[teeteringhead]

I always thought that being obtuse was the required aptitude for Flt Ops Off's

Nahhhh

doesn't "FOTC" = Failed Other Training Courses

...... only joking guys 'n' gals ......;)

[minigundiplomat]

teeteringhead,

I demand you retract your vicious and barbed comments. Several of our Ops Officers have been fluent with staplers and photocopiers, showing a far greater aptitude than the aircrew on the Sqn's. Some have been known to progress onto chinagraphs, under supervision from the Cpl or SAC of course.

MGD

[Ali Barber]

No disrespect, but why would you want your son to join the current RAF? Having been in since Pontious failed his first nav test, I'm glad my kids have gone their own way.

[dagowly]

Failed Officer Training Course ;)

Its usually full of officers that have failed pilot, nav, air traffic or fighter controller (sorry, battle space manager)

[parabellum]

Saintsman - On the bright side, your son now has the oportunity to get it right and join the Army!

In 1959 I went to the RAF recruiting office, hoping to be a pilot, and was told I might make a good loadmaster! I went straight to the Army recruiters.

Forty two years later as I finished my final flight I got to the top of the airbridge and looked back at the beautiful B747-400 I had just left and thanked the RAF recruiter for his insight!;)

[golf 8 delta]

Dagowly,

If you are going to apologize at least get it right; FC now = ABM Aerospace Battle Manager.

Its a c**p name if you ask me.

G8D

[Doobry Firkin]

Don't worry Saintsman it really won't be long before it picks up again. If my time in has tought me anything it's once we have slow recruitment they realise we have too many people in, announce a round of redundancies and let too many people go. Then the recruitment picks up again, doesn't explain how all the work will still be expected to be done by less bods but ours is not to reason why.....

It's to sit and wait on the redundacies!

[BEagle]

14 weeks for the phone-answering course?

"Station Operations, Plt Off Useless speaking, how may I be of annoyance?"

shortly followed by "Err, Corporal, could you speak to this person please"...:hmm:

Yes, 'tis banter. But when they retire, they can always work in call centres, I suppose.

And if FC = Fighter Confuser or (in AWACS) Flying Clot, does ABM = A B£oody Menace?

Aerospace Battle Manager......:yuk: Whoever dreamed that one up?

[polyglory]

Gordon Bennett,

Someone has too much time on their hands making up meaningless names.

In my day it was Fighter Controller and Air Def Ops, never liked the Aerospace Systems Ops.

Ah well back to my cave;)

[Debzvee AV]

Hello!

I am just finding questions while I wait in anxiousness for a start date.

What would be a normal amount of Avionic technicians that would be taken on in one year? Does anyone know?

Yours Twiddling thumbingly

[isitme]

Clearly all the post refering to the FOTC and Flight Operations Branch have absolutely no idea what the branch actually does. The Branch itself is extremely well thought of and carry out there duties despite the lack of

a. Understanding of their role.
b. Respect of their role.
c. Lack of full commitment to the role from other branches.
d. Lack of effective branch sponsor

The Flight Ops Branch originally staffed by ex aircrew who could no longer fly for various reasons or Officers from other branches looking for fast track promotion in the fledgling new branch have now been replaced by well trained and generally extremly competant compliment of officers.

Furthermore they support the white winged master race wherever they may operate be it in the UK or on deployment. Many deploy every 2 years to help maintain the current level of offensive operations. Mostly working extremly long hours without the limitations of Crew Duty etc. They often work long before and after our aircrew brethren have hit the bar or comfort of their accommodation and generally get little thanks from all for a job well done in sometime difficult circumstance.:ugh:

Rant over. Instead of offering ill informed banter on the forum why not try and stick to the thread in the first place?

[Grabbers]

Is it me,

I guess it is. :ugh:

I have yet to meet a competent Flt Ops Officer, let alone extremely. All of the ones I've ever come across, either at home or deployed, need as much babysitting as my 6 year old. They usually have little concept of the demands of other trades or branches and come up with plans that are at best, brave. And I am far from ill informed on that matter.

Keep plugging away though. :ok:

[ScorpionDriver]

Do you mean that some Ops Officers ask ridiculous questions by using time wasting, inappropriate and obvious methods?

A bit like you do:


http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/404756-car-stereo-unlock-help-needed.html

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/386363-new-home-telephone-needed-uk.html

[Bluntnotsharp]

There are several good Flt Ops Officers knocking around Benson and Odiham. If you are still looking for an extremely competent one I suggest you start by looking there. (Maybe don't start looking in FHQ though, although that is just an opinion based on general moaning and whinging rather than my own experience.)

[Tourist]

"The Branch itself is extremely well thought of "

certainly from within, anyway....

[ScorpionDriver]

"'But when they retire, they can always work in call centres, I suppose."

I know lots of pilots, I know quite a few Ops Officers. This is what they are now doing since they 'retired':

Ex Ops O - Lawyer, £100,000 pa plus
Ex Ops O - Doctor, Consultant within 7 years, £90,000 plus (massive overtime too)
Ex Ops O - Software Sales, £100,000-200,000pa, very social hours

Ex RAF Pilot - Airline Pilot, £40,000-75,000 pa plus shift work for the rest of your life!

[BEagle]

Why is there any need for a specific Call Centre Branch?

Maybe it's just a ruse to allow SACs and Cpls to develop their 'Rodney tolerance' skills - diplomatically telling some newbie Plt Off which end of the phone is for speaking into must tax the patience of a saint.







Yes, it's just banter!

[STANDTO]

"I heard a rumour that 140 students will pass through IOT this year!

There were 120 odd on my IOT back in the day!!!!!"

- time to sell off everything North of Cranwell Avenue for College Hall to be developed into luxury apartments. Lash down a tarmac runway on the North Airfield for private jets, and bobs your uncle:ok:

[Blind No Joy]

isitme

Left eng? 99.3, right eng? 99.6 - yeah, i'm spooled up in the front mate.

I really hope this is a well placed bit of stunning fishing, in which case Touche Sir! If it's not then please read below.

When I joined the air force a fair few years ago my flight commander (blue team) told me about this "divide" in the air force and I committed then and there to not being one of those aircrew who didnt appreciate the job - and the hard work - that people in the other 88 jobs in the service did. However Ive resigned myself now to socialising with other aircrew with very few exceptions.

And it's because of people like you.

The Flight Ops branch is just another branch. If there is a requirement for the branch then it will exist. It is why you were employed. It shouldnt need to be defended (if it does that raises its own questions.)

You raise the points that you need more understanding of the role. I work stunningly hard to understand my own role. Don't try to add to my workload by trying to make appreciate you. Respect for your role? I dont respect roles, I respect the people that fill them, and currently with you its running well below min TGT. A "Lack of full commitment to the role from other branches" - which doesn't actually mean anything (it sounds like management speak david, and I know you hate that). And the lack of an effective branch sponsor? If this means what I think it does thats the responsibility of the officers within your branch.

The white winged master race? I havent called you a no winged untermensch. I might yet. And yes, you do support us, and thats because the A stands for Air, not Admin. Every 2 years? Dare you to say that in Benson/Odiham Officers Mess and see what happens.

Hours. Oh hours. This is the bit that gets to me the most. You people seem to think that pilots saunter into ops, grab a completed flight plan, jump in a jet, plug the AP in and start eating. Stop eating when the wheels hit and start the lash. Meanwhile youve done an 8 till 6 and feel pretty bad. Understandable. You dont see the times when they are standing over maps at 2 in the morning to fly at 8 the next day. You dont see a 6 hour sortie over afghanistan on a bang seat. You dont see the time the QWI studes are in. And appreciation? The best performance Ive ever seen someone put in was an sac in admin block who simply dominated his job and was polite to boot. He got thanked all the time, invited to lots of squadron piss ups and promoted very quickly. If you do your job well enough, you'll get the thanks you deserve.

HP Cocks shut.

If you can't take a bit of banter (especially when you can press the cross button in the top right corner) then yes, itisyou.

[Mahogany_Bomber]

All of the statements made about Flt Ops Officers can be made about any other specialisation within the RAF, they are no worse and no better than any other group of individuals in the service. They've a few stars, some buffoons and the vast majority are sat at various places in between. It's somewhat tedious to see the same old cliches trotted out once again.

If you feel that an individual isn't up to muster than exercise your rank/appointment/military judgement and do something about it in the real world rather than pontificating on an internet forum. It's incumbent upon us all to mentor/train/encourage/chastise as necessary - that Flt Ops Officer may be failing to perform their duty but what are you doing about it?

MB

[ProfessionalStudent]

Isitme

I think the biggest frustration with the Flight Ops Branch is that the majority (stand fast the good guys, and there are a few - I was married to one) seem to make the business of flying more difficult. More rules, more regulation, more bureaucracy in place of good old common sense, trust, leadership and flexibility. The irony of it all is that the branch was introduced to make our lives easier, but often has precisely the opposite effect.

Aircrew - Just ask yourself when was the last time the Flt Ops Branch TOOK AWAY a layer of faff and bureaucracy and made your life easier....? No, thought so.

Flt Ops - Stop being so bloody precious about helping aircrew. That's your job. I have done flt ops jobs in theatre (vice people from your branch because you didn't have enough as you only deploy once every 2 yrs, darlings) and walked into a shambles that was cursed by the aircrew. Now, I saw it as my job to make the aircrew's lives as easy and worry free as possible. Strip away the unnecessary and make things more efficient. Be humble enough to listen to the operators and be willing to change things with enough flexibility to change back if it doesn't work. Did I work longer hours (my job) - sometimes. Did I help increase operational output (my job) - I hope so. Did I get thanks (not my job, but I didn't worry if I didn't get it) - quite often, yes.

There are individuals within the branch that are well respected and well thought of - similar to the other "support (read all other) branches". The Branch itself is not. Too many simpering, precious, chip-laden jobsworths who think their raison d'etre is to build their own empire, not to help the bloke over the battlefield do his job better and with the minimum of fuss and exterior stress. Talking to the people you support and changing things to make their lives easier IS NOT WEAK.

And I'm afraid that until there is a step change in your branch that is led by the good guys, it will remain that way.

So no, it's not JUST you.

[Wyler]

My understanding is that there will only be 4 X Courses of 70(ish) through IOT next Financial Year.

Most (ground) Branches have single digit vacancies.


Reselection options almost non existent.


That is what young Miss Wyler was told when she asked.

I am a Civil Servant Sim Instructor: expect to clear my desk soon. :(

Tough times ahead. :sad:

Good luck to everyone else. :ok:

[Scarlett O'Hara]

Mahogany Bomber - well said and thank you for such an objective post.

Professional Student - your comments do not reflect the ops officers that I am in contact with. In fact I too am married to one and he has always gone out his way to assist air crew. To such a degree I have even found myself sitting in a crew room on a Saturday night whilst waiting to go out for dinner after a franctic aircrew phone call to home for help.

Your comments are unhelpful and derogatory to the majority of people in a branch who work extremely hard.

I do wonder why the RAF find it so difficult to still apparently accept the concept of the operations branch. The civilian world (and yes, I know you are different) would consider operations to be a specialisation both from an airline and airport perspective. Air crew fly, operations people control operations. Yes, there are bad eggs everywhere but please give these people the chance they deserve and stop berating them. It's been done to death before - change the record.

[ProfessionalStudent]

Scarlett

I will be the 1st to say there are plenty of good guys out there but I'm afraid that I speak from my point of view as the "customer":yuk: I am certainly not one for bashing the branch just because that is the common rhetoric but I have been around since before the advent of the branch and just cannot see much difference from before. I'm afraid that too many people seem to take the easy option of saying "no you can't" rather than trying to resolve the true issue (though it's not the only branch guilty of this, but then I never said it was). It's just a real shame for the branch that the really good guys who are willing to go that extra mile are so few and far between.

I'm sure the people within the branch work hard (we all do, let's be frank) but I'm not sure that the branch itself really knows what it's for any more - maybe that's due to the lack of a credible branch sponsor and thus direction. I'd love to be able to extol the virtues of a branch introduced to make it easier to do my job and thus increase operational output - if only that's what it really did.

And I'm afraid that there will always be a response when people like isitme fan the flames of an ever-smouldering debate! Anyway, that'll be my last word on it...

... back to the thread though...

I do hope that as Phase 1 and 2 training is pared back, the ability to increase the bore of the pipeline is kept for the inevitable rise in recruiting that we'll see once the job market picks up again. Otherwise we'll be in oh such a pickle in 4 or 5 years once everyone sitting on their PVRs/reaching their options have gone. I have a feeling that unless we can react quickly when it happens, things could reach a critical state.

But I'm sure our Lords and Masters have thought of that.

[Justanopinion]

Scarlett O Hara

If the OPs Support branch was so confident in its ability, it would not have to defend itself so loudly.... and that you are married to an Ops Officer and feel the need to defend him and his trade, is quite telling too... in my 24 years worth of experience, it is usually the low average people who wail the loudest, the good guys just tend to get on with it.

Think about it.

[minigundiplomat]

Not another word against Ops Spt Officers. Without all of them, we would have to employ a couple of experienced corporals

[rockiesqiud]

Bluntnotsharp


There are several good Flt Ops Officers knocking around Benson and Odiham. If you are still looking for an extremely competent one I suggest you start by looking there. (Maybe don't start looking in FHQ though, although that is just an opinion based on general moaning and whinging rather than my own experience.)


As one who works in FHQ please fill me in on this General Moaning. Unless you have first hand experience please don't post second hand whinges. :=

Oh and before you reply MGD I'm not as qualifed as a CPL.:ugh:

[Uncle Ginsters]

So can anyone tell me what the role is?

Who did it before Ops Officers and what are those peole doing now?

Well, if my memory serves me right, the Ops Off role was performed by an experienced aircrew chap who was either unable or had simply chosen to take some time off flying (yes - we used to have that capacity:rolleyes:)
Out of that grew an infinitely better understanding of Flt Ops and of the crews' requirements.

With the demise of many legacy platforms, we must surely now be looking for jobs for a host of experienced Navs and AEOps who could add the much needed direction to the Flt Ops world.

I won't mention the Sqn OpsO who got sent home from an Op after a week as he was getting in the way of his Sgt :ugh:..oh, i just did!

[ProfessionalStudent]

I've heard on the grapevine that they have stopped all Dentist recruitment and are seriously thinking about civilianising the branch. Small beer perhaps, but we will almost undoubtedly end up paying more money (even taking into account the provision of housing and pensions, civvy dentists can earn an awful lot of dough on the outside - and there are generally too few out there already, so we'll need to pay top dollar) for a service that's not as good or flexible.