Is 6 POB restriction for PPL or Private ops?

[Night Flight]

Hi All,

Just a quick question regarding a restriciton I remember being in place but cant find anywhere now... it is possible that its has been changed or that I am blind and didn't see it. Probably the second.

I am trying to remeber if this was for Private operations of for PPL pilot.

For example can a CPL fly a 11 seat aircraft on private ops? What about a PPL?

Thanks,

NF

[PercyWhino]

"Just a quick question regarding a restriciton I remember being in place but cant find anywhere now... it is possible that its has been changed or that I am blind and didn't see it. Probably the second.

I am trying to remeber if this was for Private operations of for PPL pilot.

For example can a CPL fly a 11 seat aircraft on private ops? What about a PPL?"

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/comlaw/legislation/legislativeinstrumentcompilation1.nsf/0/7AE8535FA1547BEACA2575E50028F91F/$file/CivilAviation1988Vol1.pdf

Page 43 and 44

Regulation 2 Paragraph 7 and 7A

For the purposes of these regulations:
(a) an aircraft that is flying or operating for a commercial
purpose referred to in paragraph 206 (1) (a) shall be taken
to be employed in aerial work operations;
(b) an aircraft that is flying or operating for a commercial
purpose referred to in paragraph 206 (1) (b) shall be taken
to be employed in charter operations;
(c) an aircraft that is flying or operating for the commercial
purpose referred to in paragraph 206 (1) (c) shall be taken
to be employed in regular public transport operations; and
(d) an aircraft that is flying or operating for the purpose of, or
in the course of:
(i) the personal transportation of the owner of the
aircraft;
(ii) aerial spotting where no remuneration is received by
the pilot or the owner of the aircraft or by any person
or organisation on whose behalf the spotting is
conducted;
(iii) agricultural operations on land owned and occupied
by the owner of the aircraft;
(iv) aerial photography where no remuneration is
received by the pilot or the owner of the aircraft or
by any person or organisation on whose behalf the
photography is conducted;
(v) the carriage of persons or the carriage of goods
without a charge for the carriage being made other
than the carriage, for the purposes of trade, of goods
being the property of the pilot, the owner or the hirer
of the aircraft;
(va) the carriage of persons in accordance with
subregulation (7A);
(vi) the carriage of goods otherwise than for the purposes
of trade;
(vii) conversion training for the purpose of endorsement
of an additional type or category of aircraft in a pilot
licence; or
(viii) any other activity of a kind substantially similar to
any of those specified in subparagraphs (i) to (vi)
(inclusive);
shall be taken to be employed in private operations.

(7A) An aircraft that carries persons on a flight, otherwise than in
accordance with a fixed schedule between terminals, is
employed in a private operation if:
(a) public notice of the flight has not been given by any form
of public advertisement or announcement; and
(b) the number of persons on the flight, including the
operating crew, does not exceed 6; and
(c) no payment is made for the services of the operating crew;
and
(d) the persons on the flight, including the operating crew,
share equally in the costs of the flight; and
(e) no payment is required for a person on the flight other
than a payment under paragraph (d).

Everything that is in Bold is what Private Ops are, straight from the CAR. CAR 206 explains what commercial operations are

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrumentCompilation1.nsf/0/681A91DD592B157FCA25761800332BAA/$file/CivilAviation1988Vol3.pdf CAR 206 Page 103

To answer your question. Technically Yes can fly an 11 seat aeroplane as long as there are no more than 6 passengers, same as a PPL provided you hold the appropriate type rating/ design feature endorsement.

Just my interpretation but im sure many wiser people will correct me.

[Frank Arouet]

Yes, my understanding from times gone is that 6 was the max you could claim when "cost sharing" on a PPL.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Correct. If you are cost sharing, the max POB (not max seating capacity) is 6. For other PVT ops, you could fly a fully loaded 747 in PVT category (if of course you had the required endorsements).:ok:

[Ted D Bear]

If the flight is not for hire or reward and you are not sharing costs, you can carry as many as the aircraft will legally take. If you are sharing costs, then the maximum is 6. This is because the various sub-sub-paragraphs of sub-paragraph 7(d) are expressed as alternatives /// :O

[Omega471]

Where does parachuting ops come into this?

A C206 with 6 "pax" and one crew member.

Cheers

Omega471

[PyroTek]

Where does parachuting ops come into this?

A C206 with 6 "pax" and one crew member.

Cheers

Omega471It's alright, they leave with 6 pax when CASA isn't there, and land with one POB, regardless of whether or not CASA are there waiting:}

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Not exactly cost sharing. The pilot doesn't pay (not in money anyway).

Begin thread drift
Regardless, meat bombing's a commercial operation.
Just some f*cked up arrangement with the APF that means although people pay for flight (yes- they are charged more for higher drop alts), there is no AOC, no pay for the pilot in some cases (along with no insurance or super), and no emergency procedures checking for when it all goes pear shaped.
End thread drift.

[compressor stall]

No no no...

The meat bombers do not pay for the flight. They pay for the drop. The longer the drop, the more they pay. :*

And they all join a club type of thingy to get around the AoC requirement. :ugh:

But hey, Reg Ansett got around the regs too with with 3 quid orange and a flight for free so there is a precendent :8

[hadagutful]

I would say the free fallers certainly pay for the flying, it is just costed into their drop cost.
A higher drop costs more because the aircraft is flying for longer and burns more fuel to get up there.

All very logical. Off the original topic though.

[601]

The meat bombers do not pay for the flight. They pay for the drop. The longer the drop, the more they pay.

So they would still be in business if they could find another means of getting to the top of the drop.:rolleyes:

One could develop the same argument for any kind of dropping operation and form a view that it is a private operation.

There was one for aerial baiting. - Aviation Ruling 1/2003 - since rescinded


5 Subject to this ruling, a person may legally conduct aerial baiting operations without holding:
5.1 an AOC authorising the conduct of operations for aerial work purposes under CAR 206(1)(a); or
5.2 an agricultural pilot rating, as described in CAR 5.13, and required for the
conduct of ‘agricultural operations’ by CAR 5.01(2)(a).

6 This is because, in CASA’s view, aerial baiting operations are neither:
6.1 ‘agricultural operations’ within the meaning of that term in CAR 2(1); nor
6.2 substantially similar to agricultural operations for the purpose of
CAR 206(1)(a)(ix).

in CASA’s view

Take note of the words "in CASA's view" in other words their opinion.

"In my view" meat bombing is a commercial operation. It probably will be made one as a result of the next fatal accident involving parachuting operations.

Not if but when.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Pay peanuts.....get monkeys.:cool:

[Night Flight]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for help with my question... and the extra info on meat bombing :)

I'm still kind of confused. I know an aircraft can operate under private ops even though it has more than 6 pax plus 3 crew (who are employed as flight/cabin crew and paid for the job). It is for the purpouse of transporting the owners or his business associates or family or friends.

Think corporate aviation.. a fully loaded G5 can be operated under private ops! Why?

Would that be under a CASA exemption (which is freely given to all corporate operations) or is there another paragraph in the regs which allow this?

Thanks,
NF

From the regs (thanks PercyWhino):
(7A) An aircraft that carries persons on a flight, otherwise than in
accordance with a fixed schedule between terminals, is
employed in a private operation if:
(a) public notice of the flight has not been given by any form of public advertisement or announcement; and
(b) the number of persons on the flight, including the
operating crew, does not exceed 6; and
(c) no payment is made for the services of the operating crew;
and
(d) the persons on the flight, including the operating crew,
share equally in the costs of the flight; and
(e) no payment is required for a person on the flight other
than a payment under paragraph (d).

[601]

7A is to allow "cost sharing" and to meet the criteria for cost sharing all sub-paragraphs have to be met.

(7A) An aircraft that carries persons on a flight, otherwise than in
accordance with a fixed schedule between terminals, is employed in a private operation if:
(a) public notice of the flight has not been given by any form of public advertisement or announcement; and
(b) the number of persons on the flight, including the operating crew, does not exceed 6; and
(c) no payment is made for the services of the operating crew; and
(d) the persons on the flight, including the operating crew, share equally in the costs of the flight; and
(e) no payment is required for a person on the flight other than a payment under paragraph (d).

One has to take notice of "and"

Private operations are allowed under 7(d)

(d) an aircraft that is flying or operating for the purpose of, or in the course of:
(i) the personal transportation of the owner of the aircraft;
(ii) aerial spotting where no remuneration is received by the pilot or the owner of the aircraft or by any person or organisation on whose behalf the spotting is conducted;
(iii) agricultural operations on land owned and occupied by the owner of the aircraft;
(iv) aerial photography where no remuneration is received by the pilot or the owner of the aircraft or by any person or organisation on whose behalf the photography is conducted;
(v) the carriage of persons or the carriage of goods without a charge for the carriage being made other than the carriage, for the purposes of trade, of goods being the property of the pilot, the owner or the hirer of the aircraft;
(va) the carriage of persons in accordance with subregulation (7A);
(vi) the carriage of goods otherwise than for the purposes of trade;
(vii) conversion training for the purpose of endorsement of an additional type or category of aircraft in a pilot licence; or
(viii) any other activity of a kind substantially similar to any of those specified in subparagraphs (i) to (vi) (inclusive);
shall be taken to be employed in private operations.


Think corporate aviation.. a fully loaded G5 can be operated under private ops! Why?

Would that be under a CASA exemption (which is freely given to all corporate operations) or is there another paragraph in the regs which allow this?

The above G5 operation would be either under (d)(i) or (d)(v)

Can you enlighten me on this "CASA Exemption"