Avanti II in town

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Wish I had a bit more time to look over the demo Avanti at EN today...nice looking machine in the flesh. I never realised the diameter of those five blade props were sooo small as compared to a normal PT-6 install...still, gotta hand it to the Italians...she looks like she's doing 200mph just sitting there...a real racer of an aircraft.

[Howard Hughes]

Was in Sydney yesterday, sure is a sweet looking ride!:ok:

[eternity]

If thats the case I wonder if Gavin Secombe knows??

Anybody who attended his theory course would know what I mean

[Nose wheel first]

It was in Isa last Saturday. What an awesome machine!!!

[training wheels]

Where is it parked at EN? I wouldn't mind having a look tomorrow.

[aseanaero]

Susi Air just started flying one out of Halim in Jakarta , they have a unique sound compared to other turboprops , you don't need to look outside to tell it's an Avanti

[Howard Hughes]

Probably the one that is visiting, as it has Indonesian registration!

[aseanaero]

Susi took delivery of the Avanti in July , maybe they've picked up the Asia Pacific agency as well or the factory is chartering it for a sales tour of Oz ? I think the registration is PK-VVP ?

I call it the Vespa-prop as Piaggo also make Vespas.

[Massey058]

Reg is PK-VVX, Piaggio are paying to use it for promotional work in this part of the world.

[Peter Fanelli]

they have a unique sound compared to other turboprops


or in non politically correct terms, they are bloody noisy!!!

[aseanaero]

Thanks for the correction Massey , I think I got VVP from Vespa Prop which stuck in my mind.

[Massey058]

Haha yeah VVP was the first Porter.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Training Wheels...the Avanti was parked on Exec's apron next to the F27.

[training wheels]

Training Wheels...the Avanti was parked on Exec's apron next to the F27.

Cheers OZBUSDRIVER. Will take a look tomorrow. :ok:

[oicur12]

eternity,

Gavin Secombe.

Yep, did ATPL something with him.

Class of .....about 1990.

Loved the grey streak in the hair.

[le Pingouin]

Departed EN for AYE then BRM this morning, presumably leaving the country. Climbs like a shower of the proverbial - made it to FL400!

[Wally Mk2]

.................bumma would liked to have seen this beast up close.
Anyone got any pix of this craft at EN?
The airframe type was bantered around in the early days as a replacement for the old flying shed Beech 200 for med Ops. Would have been great from a pilots point of view but operationally near useless.

I wonder why they never 'took off' so to speak? I guess cost versus the fact they still have props perhaps?

Wmk2

[The Bunglerat]

From my understanding, the Avanti is "taking off" quite well in some parts of the world (i.e. Europe/US), where the aircraft is better suited to the types of fields more prevalent there. IMHO, 'tis a beautiful machine, but you only have to look at the wing design and undercarriage set-up as two examples of where it falls down when it comes to Oz ops. I can't imagine it being a short field aeroplane, or one that lends itself to unsealed runways - unlike the King Air, which although not nearly as fast or sophisticated, remains to this day the best turbo-prop all-rounder.

[megle2]

Its real noisy on the outside.
And not so quiet on the inside, noisy I thought
Climbs at 2000rpm / 180kts ias / 2000 fpm when fairly light
cruises 1800 rpm 350kts+ at FL240 ( 400 at 31 I think )
120 over the fence on approach
118psi main wheels
Has gravel kit - a skirt behind the nose wheel
Can't compare to B200 / 350 more against C441 or CJ
Proline 21
Good sized cabin / baggage limited
Cunard pretty strong ( pilot sat on it)
Certainly makes a statement when it arrives on the tarmac

[aseanaero]

Sounds like a nice aircraft for 3 or 4 pax going between major or regional cities with sealed runways rather than a true utility aircraft like the King Air. Perfect for Europe and probably the USA

350 to 400 knots , that's moving !

[Wally Mk2]

Thanks 'Megle2' for the update on type.:ok: That high PSI would kill it for most run of the mill strips. Any wonder the noise is high inside, those RPM figures seem very high? Pro-line common as mud these days so nothing new there. Sleek looking machine though.

'Bunglerat' I was more mentioning why it hadn't taken off here in Oz more than OS.
Am sure it's a costly machine to buy. Nobody operates them here, no spares, no training on type etc etc etc, all would be very expensive to put in place for a company to operate & maintain way down under if they where on their own with 1 or 2 airframes:-)
I wonder how long it would take before someone drove a vehicle into that canard? Easy done, not another single airframe type like it around these days. (or was there a SE Cessna conversion with canard once?) Man that would hurt huge dollars am sure:-)

Wmk2:-)

[AIRTAM]

The current Piaggio has no connection to the Vespa side since Rinaldo Piaggio took over the aviation division from the family owned conglomerate in the 1970s. This company designed the unique Avanti and took it to Gates-Leajet in 1983 who agreed to build it as the GP-180 in the USA using some parts from Italy. Once sales increased, it was planned to also build them in Italy.. Learjet pulled out about 18 months later, before the prototype flew. After all jigs etc were shipped to Italy, Piaggio continued to build the prototype which flew in 1987. Orders were slow and after about 5 were built, Rinaldo Piaggio were in financial difficulties by 1991. The Piaggio family gave their shares to the Italian Government who put them into various schemes, including a Turkish investment company but Avanti progress was slow with a few orders from the Italian Government and aero engine activities kept the company going. In 1999, all the shares were sold to the Ferrari and the Di Mase families who formed a new company, Piaggio Aero and put the Avanti project on a better footing with big improvements in the design etc. Today, Piaggio Aero have the 198th aircaft nearly ready to fly. Apart from the Ferrari and Di Mase families, Dubai and Indian (Tata) interests now have big shareholdings in the company.

[Peter Fanelli]

or was there a SE Cessna conversion with canard once?


That would be the Wren 460, used to be one in Adelaide many years ago.
Apparently now a new version is known as the Peterson 260SE

Peterson's Performance Plus (http://www.katmai-260se.com/)


The Wren 460 STC conversion of Cessna 182G, H, and J Skylane models created outstanding STOL performance, lowered stall speed and improved low speed maneuverability and climb performance at lower angles of attack.

There were four major mods to the conversion.

1. Full-span double-slotted flaps

2. The original Cessna wing section nose radius was increased (new airfoil contour) to postpone wing stall.

3. A new set of short wing-like control surfaces, each comprising a horizontal stabilizer, elevator and tab were mounted on the fuselage nose sides and linked with the conventional elevators at the tail to augment pitch control at low speeds.

4. A set of five swivel/movable drag plates were mounted above each outer wing section to improve control during turns. I believe these were linked to the ailerons, and possibly also to the rudder.

Comparative flight testing to a standard C182 was published in AOPA PILOT magazine during the Wren's heyday. The Wren 460 showed almost unbelievable performance and safety improvements. The Wren 460 could take off in 270 feet from start of roll and exhibited fully controllable flight down to a stall speed of only 31 miles per hour.

Specs for the Wren 460:

Wingspan: 36' 7"
Length: 28' 0.5"
Gross weight: 2,800 lbs
Cruise speed: 115-151 mph
Stall speed: 31 mph
Max range: 1,150 miles at 115 mph

I believe only 34 conversions were done. The Wren 460 conversion was expensive and was mainly done on new Cessna 182 aircraft.

[morno]

Boys that front part is not a canard, it is an actual wing equipped with flaps even. That's part of the reason the Avanti can have such a small wing for the size of the aircraft, and why it is so fast. The front wing provides lift, so therefore decreases the size of the main wing.

Sounds like a nice aircraft for 3 or 4 pax going between major or regional cities with sealed runways rather than a true utility aircraft like the King Air. Perfect for Europe and probably the USA

Not really. A flight they've carried out here in Australia as part of a demo, had the aircraft near full fuel, and several large blokes (probably average of 100-110kg's each) filling all the seats onboard and still had the machine under MTOW. It went straight up to FL330 without battering an eyelid. There are aeromedical kitted Avanti's getting around in Europe in particular, and they are able to fit 2 stretchers along with all the required gear quite easily. Much roomier than the B200's inside. A guy like myself (abour 5'11") can stand in the middle of the cabin and only have to just bow his head.

Its real noisy on the outside.
And not so quiet on the inside, noisy I thought

Megle, did you fly in it? From what I heard, because of the props being towards the rear of the aircraft, it was actually a lot quieter inside than a B200. Normal conversations could be had without the need for headsets.

It certainly is an impressive aircraft. It's definitely not a replacement for a B200, but it could complement the aircraft quite well for more long range flights leaving the B200 to do shorter hops into the shorter strips.

I'd be surprised if we don't see one here in Australia within the near future, :ok:.

morno

[CirrusSR22T]

Morno, you are very correct in regard to the low noise level inside, a normal level speaking volume can be heard across the cabin.

The QLD section of RFDS are looking at the Avanti II, it was at there hanger for 2 days whilst at YBBN.

One of the key factors for Aero Med is it can maintain sea level cabin pressure up to 25,000ft :ok:

[Massey058]

Morno, you are very correct in regard to the low noise level inside, a normal level speaking volume can be heard across the cabin.

The design-rule fuselage helps a lot in that regard. The pilots have to be careful about how loudly they talk as there is only a curtain separating them from the cabin and it possible for passengers to hear their discussions.

[megle2]

Morno - yep its there to enhance the present RFDS Qld fleet if purchased.
Had a ride
Its quieter than a 200.
Quiet cabin but the noisey props are there in the background.
Noise readings mentioned on the day were not that low.

[Capn Bloggs]

The front wing provides lift, so therefore decreases the size of the main wing.
As importantly, reduces the downforce required from the tailplane. The forewing holds the nose up instead of levering it up using the tail, with the wing as the pivot point.

Saw it at the Rock yesterday. Pretty slick looking machine! :D

[Wally Mk2]

'Cirrus' i would be very surprised if the Avanti was being considered for any Aero Med ops here in OZ. Just not practicable for a whole heap of reasons. They where briefly looked at by the boffins some time ago prior to the Vic contract being set up & where not seriously considered for cost & ability reasons. As mentioned elsewhere here with a 118psi tyre pressure that alone creates too many issues.

The Avanti's ability to hold a SL cabin @ 25K is of no practicable use here also.

'FD' Pelair with Avanti's? I'd like to see that buddy:)

Wmk2

[morno]

Well you might find yourself being very surprised then Wally, :).

morno

[Arnold E]

Isn't the Avanti a bit like the old Beech Starship?:confused:

[Wally Mk2]

...........I look fwd to the day 'morno':ok:

From a pilots point of view, great, something different to flying a 'brick':-)


Wmk2

[Aquaplaner]

How do they handle dirt or gravel airstrips? Are the propellers mounted behind the main wheels? If so do they not kick up stones into the propellers??

[ga_trojan]

I think you will find that the RFDS may be looking at something to do long sector intercity transfers which the Avanti's would be a perfect fit. It is quick gets over the weather, single pilot etc etc. Runway lengths and tyre pressure won't come into the equation. The B200/PC12 don't really cut the mustard as they are too slow and in the case of the B200 operate with an overload exemption. The Avanti would solve all these problems in one aeroplane, assuming you can get all the medical equipment into them including the stretcher.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

That should make it 'ideal' for RFDS WA ops then.
For the 'long distance' transfers that is.

WA Section just taken delivery of 4 new PC-12's in Weekend papers....

The better(?) argument of twins vs singles?? :ok:

[puff]

I guess the same issue for the RFDS in QLD. Take into consideration patient transfers from CNS/TSV-BNE or any of the 'bigger' towns through the state then the high tire pressures wouldn't be an issue but the speed and altitude would be a big pro.

You ain't gunna be seeing it doing highway landings but certainly seems like a decent run for the longer transfers. Must be a reason for a long visit to the RFDS in BNE!

[B58]

Wally, Last year I flew a total of 57 trips from TL-CS-BN-TL in the B200 for med transfer (this year slightly less but still significant). I cant remember how many of these had to be carried out at sea level but it was a significant number. The leg from CS to BN is 770nm and takes just on 3 hrs at FL270 and typically 3.5 hrs at FL140 or 150 for the B200 with sea level cabin.

This is only one of the regular long transfers that we do where this aircraft would benefit us greatly. It certainly cannot replace the kingair but could definately enhance our current fleet. The Avanti flys at light jet speeds pretty much and costs 1 mil more than a new kingair which I guess is a fair bit cheaper than a new jet.

Anyway just my thoughts on why the RFDS in QLd ARE thinking about getting an Avanti at some stage. I dont think it will happen in a hurry but probably will happen. Even if they do then just base it in BN to do the hervey bay shuttles.