744 spoilers not fully deploying

[B-HKD]

As many know NRT can be a handful during gusty conditions.

I was wondering after having watched this AF Cargo 74F landing at NRT, on what may caused the left wing spoilers, except one to not fully deploy? (clearly visible in the video) Full right aileron all the way down? (they deploy towards the end of the video)

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[LeadSled]

Folks,
Didn't look like a heavy landing to me, although the flare was a bit high an there was bit of a float.
There is differential action of the spoilers with aileron, they would have had a lot of in to wind aileron.
Tootle pip!!

[Rainboe]

Look, can you stop posting rubbish like this with accusations of 'Hard Landing' and 'close call' with a supposed pod strike? Do you go spotting to try and catch incidents? If so you are imagining them now. Let's get a few things straight:
1- nothing wrong with a landing like that in those conditions. There was turbulence and a very strong crosswind
2- I don't see that as 'hard' in any way
3- there was no risk whatsoever of a pod strike with that landing. You need far more than that amount of bank to scrape a pod in a 747. Nowhere near. In your dreams. Quite clear?

I flew these things for 18 years. You can post rubbish like this on Youtube, but come here making accusations like that and you'll get your tail burnt, because rightly, there was nothing wrong with that landing in those conditions. A job well done, and subject to daft accusations from you. I suggest you go spotting to enjoy aeroplanes, not look for drama in everything. I really think it is time people like you were taken to court by these companies for libel. Presented with flight recorder evidence (and a large fine), perhaps we'll not see this idiocy pumped out by people like you so commonly.

[Busserday]

Seems it was a "difficult" landing indeed and the pf got 'er on very well. Nose came down a bit quicker than he probably wanted but not a pounder, I don't think.
BD:ok:

[TckVs]

Nothing wrong with that one, other that a little, (very litlle) too much flare. But in that crosswind, its looks a good job. Nowhere near 12deg of bank, so not close to a scrap.
I even have to agree with Rainboe. this time.:ugh:

[BubbaMc]

Rainboe - it seems you're the one looking for drama. The kid was simply asking for information regarding spoilers not deploying. Shows he has a healthy interest in the industry, is that such a bad thing?

[B-HKD]

I understand me having said 'near pod strike' was wrong. So I removed that.

But in the end this is NOT my video since my name is not Masaaki Asukayama. So I did not give the video its title and never mentioned a 'hard landing' in my post. My main question was purely based on the left wing spoilers.

[john_tullamarine]

We prefer not to have threads deleted.

You will need just a slight thickening of the skin sometimes in the PPRuNe sandpit.

While we don't condone outright nastiness etc, reasonable (even if a tad abrasive) criticism is acceptable .. even if the original criticism be a mite misdirected and you have to correct it. The folk who may appear to be a little brusque in their observations are not really having a go at you but they do get a bit frustrated at times with some posts. You have to be able to withstand a little bit of criticism even if you might think it unreasonable.

The thread should stay as the video is quite interesting for those of us (ie most, and probably all, airline/charter/military pilots) who have played with significant crosswind landings. I have to agree with some of the other posters - the crew on the day appear to have done a pretty fine job in the circumstances.

[Sciolistes]

I was wondering after having watched this AF Cargo 74F landing at NRT, on what may caused the left wing spoilers, except one to not fully deploy? (clearly visible in the video) Full right aileron all the way down? (they deploy towards the end of the video)

The crosswind was from the right, as he lands you can see he (or she!) uses left rudder to re-align the aircraft with the runway. Doing so on a swept wing aircraft results in the right wing lifting. In addition, standard technique is to hold into wind aileron (right in this case) at speed to prevent the into wind wing lifting (this applies to just about all fixed wing aircraft). Therefore, the pilot will apply a considerable amount of right aileron on touchdown in such conditions. As he slows down he will centralise the ailerons.

With regard to the spoilers, some of them are used in flight with aileron to create roll. If you apply right aileron, then the right wing's flight spoilers will extend to reduce lift on that wing to roll to the right. If all the flight spoilers are already extended or should be extended (say with speedbrake or on landing to reduce lift), then right aileron will lower the left wing's flight spoilers to increase lift on that wing to roll to the right.

Does that make sense?

[Bullethead]

Interestingly, if you right click on the video in the first post then click on "Watch on Youtube" there are several other video clips of B747s landing at NRT in similar conditions and all the spoilers deploy on landing. I wonder why the difference.

Oh and before anyone launches in and tries to explain to me how it all works I should mention that I have over 25 years experience flying Boeing airliners of various sizes so I have a fair idea.

For example,

K45V5cCBJR8

Regards,
BH.

[TckVs]

There is lot of differences between the classic and the 400. The AF erf did as I would have expected if you hold the aileron into wind, and as I'm sure you know the 400 wing flys down to about 60kts unlike the classic. I also have a good few years on the 400.

Now I'm sure even more experts will correct me.

I think the AF guys seem to have done a good job. Does anyone know the real weather?

Ducking again;)

[16down2togo]

Sorry but I have to agree to Rainboe in a certain way,
This forum gets full of people, non experts as young experts which try to
judge things they have no idea of. A hard landing in a 744, you are in no position to tell from your spotters point, this ship weights in between 170 and 300t, what looks hard to you might be a forced light aeroplane touch down in high winds.
Spoilers into the wind not deployed, think before asking questions especially you turboprops are much harder to fly than jets rookies, bloody 747s wing flies down to 70kts, you better watch it because by the time you think your landing is over that thing is still bound for a pod strike!!! Seen it much to often with my new experts in the right! seat.
16

[Bullethead]

TckVs,

They are both-400 frieghters mate that's why I was wondering why the difference.

Regards,
BH. ;)

[john_tullamarine]

young experts which try to judge things they have no idea of

If we think back to our younger and brasher days .. most of us (certainly I) were guilty of similar bravado and misplaced overconfident nonsense. PPRuNe gives the youngsters the opportunity of picking the brains of the older and wiser in a non-threatening environment.

Is that not a learning opportunity ?

.. and, is that a bad thing ?

[SMOC]

I'd say the difference in spoilers after touchdown is due to the amount of in to wind aileron applied the AF guy/girl looks like (s)he's used full deflection while the Polar guy/girl hasn't.

What I did find surprising was the amount of rudder use by the Polar guy prior to the flare.

[Sciolistes]

They are both-400 frieghters mate that's why I was wondering why the difference.
I can make out that the port wing spoilers are moving between partially extended and extended in the second video, one presumes because the pilot is holding some right aileron to varying degrees.

[B-HKD]

Only reason i ask questions here is to learn about things i dont know, not to irritate those off who do. Never did and never will tell those flying how to do it.

Some mentioned the full right aileron being applied after touchdown wich answers my question. So thanks for that.

Also interesting to see how the same aircraft is operated differently in very similar conditions.

[singpilot]

Have also seen the scenario where the Pilot Flying gets NLG on the ground and he stops 'flying'. His 'technique' is that now it is no longer an aircraft.

Those guys will have mud on the flaps at some point in their career.

As previously stated, that marvellous wing on the -400's flys right down to minimumairspeed displayed. ALL of the flight controls work right down to fast taxi.

NRT is only one of the many places where you have a busy control column with all gear on ground. I always think of back taxi at Kai Tek after landing.

We have all been along with someone (usually senior) who pulls off a miracle, and is not aware of how close he was. If junior, I step in, and then we talk about it ASAP. Talk, not cajole, not berate. Talk. It's how we pass along the BTDT stuff.

[muduckace]

Older aircraft mixed flight spoilers mechanically. Newer aircraft with fly by wire spoilers may give the aircraft the ability to give greater authority of flight spoiler over ground spoiler. The one spoiler on the left wing you see up may be design spec for the aircraft.

747 wing - this aicraft is amazing at aerodynamic breaking. Used to love watching skilled aviators ride that nose to the ground. As I understand the wing is more effective than the TR's at inducing drag to a certain speed, just a risky task.

I have to add my two cents here that the thin skinned haters who think their career is worth more than a cookie need to chill out a bit.

There are people here who seek knowledge and people who simply want to state their oppinion, It makes this board a great thing.

[john_tullamarine]

I must be having my daily senior moment ..

It's how we pass along the BTDT stuff

que ? .. if it's not one of those naughty expressions .. if the latter please do PM the answer.

A bit like when I started out in airlines .. I had never heard the acronym EFATO, although I knew a modest amount about failures on takeoff .. I suspect that my then training captain thought me to be a tad dumber than he had presumed initially.

[kbrockman]

Been there, Done that.

[parabellum]

747 wing - this aircraft is amazing at aerodynamic breaking.


Boeing won't agree with you. Boeing will tell you that there is no advantage, (and possibly a disadvantage i.e. increased landing roll), to attempting to hold the nose off for aerodynamic braking effect. The B747 wing is a high speed wing and a shorter landing roll can be achieved by flying the nose gear straight onto the runway as soon as the main gear has touched and getting as much weight as possible on the wheels as soon as possible.

Delta wing aircraft? Well that is a different story.

[john_tullamarine]

Been there, Done that.

So obvious when it's explained.

Thanks for that .. duly entered alphabetically into the back of the head acronym list.

[singpilot]

One of the F/A's I flew with had a long string of follow-on's to all of our BTDT's.

Got The T-Shirt, Sent The Post Card, Maxxed Out The Credit Card....

It went on for some time.

[Bullethead]

There's a corollary JT,

BTDTGTTS

BTDT got the tee shirt!

and if you really want to extend it

BTDTGTTSASIOE

BTDTGTTS and sold it on eBay!

The rediculosity just increases!

Regards,
BH.

[zondaracer]

Parabellum is correct. Most large jet aircraft actually have negative angle of attack once the nosewheel is on the ground. When the spoilers deploy, they eliminate residual lift. This is to maximize braking action of the wheels.

[muduckace]

Hey what boeing want's to say is fine with me. I think there is some politics involved (rev thrust from engine manufaturers and airline policy). I am just speaking from what I have seen and input from classic 74 drivers.

Aircraft weight certainly is a factor in the wing and fuscelage drag performance. I would like to hear some more oppinions of 74 classic drivers on this matter.