Lynx hits wires [Archive]

Double Zero

12th Sep 2009, 17:43

I'm ( obviously ) no rotary wing type, but I thought there were systems in place to avoid flying into pylon wires - hell, I might even manage it with dowsing rods !

My local village - not too far from Odiham - has regular Lynx & Chinook over-flights, unlit so presumably NVG's at night, some at low enough level to seem like taking the roof off.

( there's a nasty tall T.V. mast nearby ).

I have my own NVG's so enjoy the display, but some NIMBY's have objected, so Odiham are hopefully going to put on a P.R. display in the town hall.

This doesn't answer why the Lynx hit the cables, I thought among other things modern aircraft GPS makes a point of showing such things ?

Two's in

12th Sep 2009, 19:38

I'm ( obviously ) no rotary wing type, but I thought there were systems in place to avoid flying into pylon wires - hell, I might even manage it with dowsing rods !

It's usually a map with a blue line, but the problem is not all the wires are marked and of course, sometimes the aircraft can arrive at the point on the map slightly before the map reader.

There are IR and GPS linked systems out there, but I'm guessing wires are not normally a major hazard for ship based helos, so they are probably not a priority for fitting such systems given the MoD's current budget crisis for a sustainable rotary capability.

anotherthing

13th Sep 2009, 08:29

I'm ( obviously ) no rotary wing type, but I thought there were systems in place to avoid flying into pylon wires - hell, I might even manage it with dowsing rods !

Two's in gives some reasons, also even though RW flies relatively slowly, they can be a lot lower than jets and the workload at times can be huge. Wires are not always easily seen against a backdrop of terrain, looking for the pylons is one way of spotting wires, but is not failsafe (otherwise this incident would not have happened).

This doesn't answer why the Lynx hit the cables, I thought among other things modern aircraft GPS makes a point of showing such things ?

GPS reliance is not a good idea either, the whole idea of flying low level is keeping your eyes out of the window, not heads down looking at instruments.

Who knows at this stage why this Lynx struck wires but there can be many reasons why - mistakes happen. Many more accidents would happen if crews spent more time heads in looking at GPS etc when low level flying!

For the amount of low level RW flying that goes on, the incidence of wire strikes is very low. However, having lost a friend early on in flying training who hit a very well known set of wires withion the Mil community, I know that it is often easier said than done.

Flippant remarks about dowsing rods, which is almost calling the professionalism of the crew into doubt, are not needed.

vecvechookattack

13th Sep 2009, 10:05

Although the GPS will run the Nav computer - During Low Level the crew will not use the Nav but will map read and look out of the window ( or not)

Gainesy

13th Sep 2009, 10:42

Not all wires are "official" either, farmers have a penchant for stringing lines to barns, workshops etc.

[email protected]

13th Sep 2009, 17:30

Although most of the wires you are likely to encounter at 100' agl are well marked, some of the suspended wires across valleys are not always marked as such and can surprise an unwary crew.

clareprop

13th Sep 2009, 18:36

Oh well, they survived (which is top news) and will now join the many others known as Sparky...

tucumseh

13th Sep 2009, 18:54

The RSRE (now QinetiQ) system whereby a laser was used to detect wires and display on, for example, the HUD, was trialled many years ago. Late 80s I think.

I remember the RAF wanted something like “detect one inch cables at 1 mile, how many years to develop?” RSRE’s reply was, “We can give you half inch at 3 miles now, but we’re working on improvements”. (Values deliberately wrong – but you get the idea).

Not sure how that project ended up.

Pontius Navigator

13th Sep 2009, 20:20

Not sure how that project ended up.

I would guess it was the usual cost/benefit analysis.

How many wire-strikes? How much is the cost? Kit too expensive, inidence low, cost not too high. Cancelled.

tucumseh

14th Sep 2009, 05:40

PN

Probably spot on. I'll ask the boffin next time I'm up. He's still there.

Double Zero

14th Sep 2009, 17:19

Please do not take my comments re. dowsing rods as insulting in any way, apologies if it seemed that way but they - rods & 'twigs' do actually work, especially in detecting current flows and structural beams etc ( yes, people often think I'm a nut until they see it for themselves ).

However I wouldn't fancy trying it at 100+ knots, but thought there were electronic versions ?

As for GPS, better than a paper chart I suppose, especially with a HUD, as long as the survey it was based on is accurate; plenty of yachts have come to grief using GPS, relying on the readoubt in decimal figures ( depth sounders & probably rad' alt's give the same misleading sense of accuracy );

when one looks at the small print, it often reads something like " surveyed by Captain Jack Aubrey, 1860 " !

Everything always seems to come down to calibration...

Just glad the crew got out OK

trex450

14th Sep 2009, 20:27

Flying low/ultra low is fun, I have plenty of experience of that and cannot deny it is a buzz. Why is it that the military have such a high degree of CFIT type accidents? The lynx and F3 seem to be recent examples. Before anyone says it I know it is speculation but why is it necessary to fly such high performance/workload aircraft so low at such speeds. I guess I already answered it, fun, adrenaline, boys in expensive toys. A friend of mine recalled a conversation in bar with an F3 jock who was proudly displaying his thousand hour badge. He was asked if it was night or instrument by a very seasoned helo pilot. My point is that a lot of these guys are in reality still getting to grips with the hardware they are in and maybe such low flying practices should occur away from people and cables and winding valleys. It seems that on other forums everyone is all to ready to speculate and point the finger but not so on this one.

On a practical note, why is it that (given the amount of low flying) cable cutters are not fitted to military helicopters, a lot of civvy helicopters like Jet Rangers seem to have them and it would seem to me a simple inexpensive thing to do.

Lynxman

14th Sep 2009, 20:44

For helicopters that are not designed for cutters in the outset retro fit is difficult and costly as the internal structure requires strengthening to take the loads otherwise the cutter will just shear off.

Charlie Time

14th Sep 2009, 20:52

Trex - I will grant you that there has been a marked dilution of experience in the maritime Lynx fleet in the last few years, but do you have any evidence to support your suggestion that the crew were 'still coming to terms with the hardware'?

Two's in

14th Sep 2009, 23:04

Before anyone says it I know it is speculation but why is it necessary to fly such high performance/workload aircraft so low at such speeds. I guess I already answered it, fun, adrenaline, boys in expensive toys.

I'll let the FJ fraternity speak for themselves, but if you think flying low in rotary is about "fun, adrenaline, boys in expensive toys" then you may have missed some of the threads here for the last 7 years or so. At some point during helicopter operations there is a high probability that a landing is required in an insecure or even hot landing zone. The transition out of the slightly safer altitudes, to arrive at an LZ with any element of tactical surprise or covertness can require skill, planning, and amazingly enough, exposure to ultra low level flying. It is an extremely perishable skill with a high degree of risk, but practice and currency reduce those risks to managable levels. By all means point the finger at those who have been caught out wazzing and zooming, but please don't under any circumstances classify low flying as anything but what it is - an essential military skill.

Flap62

15th Sep 2009, 07:21

450,

Excellent trawl so I'll bite!

He was asked if it was night or instrument by a very seasoned helo pilot

Having plenty of time in both mil and civvie worlds I can tell you that the chap will have made more command decisions in his 1000hrs and had more experience of flying close to the edge of the performance envelope than your seasoned helo chap. Does he know it all? No, that's why they continue to refine hard won skills by operating in challenging environments.

If, after 3 tours of front line single seat fast jet, someone had sneeringly asked me - "Yeah, but how much of that time was instrument hours?" I would have enjoyed the subsequent conversation!

anotherthing

15th Sep 2009, 08:54

Double Zero - no worries, I probably over reacted about the dowsing rods and didn't take it in the way it was intended!

Trex450

(btw regarding your name - is that where you get your flying experience from - a model R/C helicopter??)

It seems that on other forums everyone is all to ready to speculate and point the finger but not so on this one
Maybe this forum is more professional then? Anyone can point the finger and speculate - as can be seen on other fora you end up with a lot of complete rubbish being mooted.

Maybe the guys on this forum understand that accidents do happen, regardless of experience.

Low flying in an intricate fighting machine with multiple mission systems on board that need to be managed when you have many other considerations such as evasion/remaining unseen etc is a lot different to fannying about flying through gates in some handling competition in an R22!

Tourist

15th Sep 2009, 10:38

Flap.

"Having plenty of time in both mil and civvie worlds I can tell you that the chap will have made more command decisions in his 1000hrs and had more experience of flying close to the edge of the performance envelope than your seasoned helo chap"

You mention mil and civvy worlds, but not rotary. Do you have front line military rotary experience?

I think quite a lot of SK/Chinook/Apache/Puma/Lynx crews would "would have enjoyed the subsequent conversation! " with you if you if you came out with crap like that.

Flap62

15th Sep 2009, 11:09

Tourist,

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. There was no slur intended towards military helo crews. I perhaps wrongly took it that the comment from 450s helo chum had come from a civvie helicopter pilot, otherwise I could not see why any military helo pilot would have asked how many hours instrument he had. Of what possible relevence would that have?

The comment that I made about command decisions and handling of course applies equally to military helo crews, I simply did not include them as they were not relevant to the sneering against the F3 chap.

Oh, by the way. If some front line SK, Chinook etc crews ever did say - yeah, but how many of those hours are on instruments, I would be surprised to say the least!

Tourist

15th Sep 2009, 11:51

Apologies Flaps, on re-reading the comment, I believe you are correct and he meant a civvy Helo guy, and I concur with your reply!

Two's in

15th Sep 2009, 16:02

"Is that instrument or night?" is pretty standard banter when anyone unwisely mentions how many flying hours they might have.

Charlie Time

15th Sep 2009, 16:47

Especially if they are bragging about 1000 hours.......

trex450

15th Sep 2009, 19:43

Quote:
He was asked if it was night or instrument by a very seasoned helo pilot
Having plenty of time in both mil and civvie worlds I can tell you that the chap will have made more command decisions in his 1000hrs and had more experience of flying close to the edge of the performance envelope than your seasoned helo chap. Does he know it all? No, that's why they continue to refine hard won skills by operating in challenging environments.

If, after 3 tours of front line single seat fast jet, someone had sneeringly asked me - "Yeah, but how much of that time was instrument hours?" I would have enjoyed the subsequent conversation!

The fast jet guy was the main man in the bar that night, he was the guy who new it all and the seasoned helo pilot (20+ thousand hours) started life as a fast jet pilot himself so I reckon he was more than qualified to bring the upstart down to earth.

Charlie Time

15th Sep 2009, 20:04

20,000 plus hours rotary is very impressive..............and rare.

[email protected]

16th Sep 2009, 05:27

The fast jet guy was the main man in the bar that night, he was the guy who new it all

So what else is new:ugh:

Flap62

16th Sep 2009, 08:38

My point is that a lot of these guys are in reality still getting to grips with the hardware they are in

Your example in no way backs up your point. Don't use the example of one guy who might have been a prat to make a sweeping generalisation.

Gainesy

16th Sep 2009, 08:45

Back on topic, I think it was RSRE that developed a millimetric wave radar for the Wessex, using one or two of the main rotor blades asscanners. Remember seeing some pics of the very high quality ground mapping it produced. Sometime in 1980s, anyone know what happened to the project?

[email protected]

16th Sep 2009, 09:42

Back to the real topic - seems like it's another case of suspended wires not being correctly marked on the 1/4 mil SACs:( Rather a sad-looking grey heli parked at our place at the mo.

Gainesy

16th Sep 2009, 09:48

Point is, which I did not make clear, wires could be seen quite clearly on the Wessex radar gizmo.

Mmmmnice

16th Sep 2009, 16:30

I'm sure that if there was a cost-effective (priority 1), feasible, available wires detection system then those operating in the low-level environment would be using it - trust me, those who have had wire strikes aren't doing it just to support discussions like this - and the amount of grief/paperwork post strike is unbelievable...............or not

vecvechookattack

16th Sep 2009, 17:45

seems like it's another case of suspended wires not being correctly marked on the 1/4 mil

The wires they hit were correctly marked on the map.

I will grant you that there has been a marked dilution of experience in the maritime Lynx fleet in the last few years

Complete rubbish. A recent study showed that the level of Experience in the Grey Lynx fleet was the highest it has ever been.