Women in Australian Defence Forces front line?

[RJM]

"Women would be able to serve in frontline combat units including the SAS and commando units, under a controversial Australian Government plan" - A push by Defence Personnel and Science Minister Greg Combet would remove gender as a criterion for selection for specialised categories of military service.

There's a lot of debate about this in Australia at the moment, and I'm wondering what the situation is in other countries, and particularly if anyone here has any practical experience and observations of women in the front line.

I spent some time in the Australian Army in the early 1970's, and I'm of the old-fashioned opinion that gender equality theory has no place at the pointy end of things, but I'd be prepared to change that view if there were evidence to the contrary.

Any views?

[parabellum]

If the girls can pass Selection for the SAS and satisfactorily complete the subsequent twelve months of training, ('chop' a possibility at any time), then they have probably earned their right to be there.

It has been said that it is far more distressing for a male to see the blown to pieces body of his female counterpart than the male.

[minigundiplomat]

My wife is an aussie, and she would probably scare the crap out of the Taliban, especially if they said they would be home at 4.30 sober, and came home at midnight slightly worse for wear and smelling of tequila.

[walter kennedy]

As western women have been so professionalised and liberated already such that no western culture is replacing its population by a long way, I suppose there's no harm in the last generations experimenting in equality in this last taboo area.:bored:
It would also save an arms race – in a total war, you can increase the lethality of your munitions simply by conning your enemy to put their women in the firing line (a woman can have several children).
But what about the negative effect on the male warrior's macho drive? - impressing and protecting females? What's it all for?:confused:
What about women's rights to be supported in their role as mothers and wives? We have had several decades of spin that they do not have to do the traditional wife thing with the result that so many men cannot aspire to a long term stable family life and western Europeans are in a mode of auto genocide. The current scene of western men trotting off to Asia for a partner does not have quite the same romantic/noble air as the Romans and the Sabine women
What about using the armed services to change the regime that has destroyed our culture in the last 60 years?:E
How much longer do we have to tolerate political correctness castrating us? - we should protest long and loud that putting our women in the front line is going too far.:=

[Sgt.Slabber]

As long as me tea's on t' table when I gets in at 'alf past six...:E

[mrmrsmith]

only cos you cannie cook Sgt Slabber

[GPMG]

But once a company of fighting Amozan's are sync'd up on their monthly cycle and then put into battle for 4-5 days per month, they will challange the '300' for fighting abilty.

I wouldn't argue with them...would you :)

[Wiley]

Walter K., if this was a formal debate, I believe the other side would have a hard time shooting your argument down (unless, of course, P.C. 'rools' applied, where contrary views such as yours are not allowed).

Leaving the military argument aside for one moment, the fact is, over the last forty years, we, so-called 'civilised, (and we think) smarter than those other "less advanced" cultures') in the West have been merrily aborting ourselves into (not so long term) oblivion.

Our one-person-one-vote democracy will bite us severely in our collective (and no longer quite so numerous) bums in the not too distant future when those other cultures that we have weclomed into our midst but not assimilated become large enough to vote us onto the proverbial back benches. As some will know, it's happened already in some areas.

[KiloB]

I seem to remember war being a fairly physical affair. So if women are now 'equal' in the eyes of the PC Brigade can we do away with Women's Categories in Tennis, Athletics, Golf etc?

Of course not, we can be equal without being identical; but this doesn't suit the Loonies.

[Sgt.Slabber]

mrmrsmith,

Did I say I could?

Limit of my koookin' ability is:

1. Open 8 Man compo box
2. Select 3 tins at random
3. Open tins, decant contents into mess tin, large
4. Stir
5. If heat source available, heat to taste, scoff
6. If no heat source available, scoff as is
7. Enjoy...

Back to thread: Women in Australian Defence Forces front line? As has already been written here, if they pass the test, do the job, etc., why not? The UK has put a number of women in "frontline" posts in the 'stan - see Michael Yon's blog "Precision Voting". Okay, so they are not in "Front Line Combat Units", but thay are ine the "Frontline" and I don't think they could get closer to combat if they tried. As Michael writes...

The women are medics, and they brave the combat just like the infantry soldiers. But again, they will never get the credit they deserve, and so we joked that they should just let people think they spent the entire tour at Camp Bastion. Who would believe that they were out there in the thick of it?

Precision Voting (http://www.michaelyon-online.com/precision-voting.htm)

[Low Ball]

RJM

You seem to have concerns about (your words) women 'at the pointy end of things' You need to be clear about what 'combat arms' you are refering to. For combat arms read 'to close with and destroy the enemy' and its generaly taken to be those whose weapons are 'direct fire' rather than 'indirect fire'

As this is an aviators forum, I'm guessing here, but you are alluding to female pilots. There are FW and Rotary Wing pilots in the RAF. To my knowledge in FW across a broad range of aircraft incl pointy things. In the AAC there are quite a few female RW pilots including on Apache and it doesn't get more 'sharp' than that. For the FAA I believe they also have RW female aircrew as well.

I have trained female aircrew and they are just as good if not, on some occasions , better than their male counterpart. So nothing to be drawn from that. If they make the grade they are in.

Check with Isrealis DF views they have expirience of how men react to wounded females.

LB

[Runaway Gun]

I'm a big guy, but I still know there are women out there that can kick my heiny.
Who here could beat the Williams sisters on the tennis court? Or some pro boxers, weightlifters, or pretty much any pro athletes at their game?

Female combatants are just as worthy/lethal, if they meet the same criteria, and should be allowed to give it their best.

[Wonderwokka]

Women can operate on equal terms. However, when they bear children they can still do it but they have to find themselves someone to raise their children for them - nanny, husband, extended family, wife - growing children generates a chemical, emotional and hormonal impact on a women in a way that it can't possibly on a man as they don't grow the child within their being. It takes a certain type of warrior women to walk away from her child and go into battle to face death. I am not saying it can't happen or that it won't but this is the reality and it raises questions about the role of women in the military and in society. Currently our society is not set up for that level of equality - families are disenfranchised due to mobility so children are not surrounded by extended families and raised by their grandparents like they could be in the past, husbands also have careers and don't often want to make the sacrifice of being primary carer and 24x7 365 days a year childcare is expensive and means to some extent control has to be relinquished with regards to how the child is nurtured.

In the phillipines women often leave their children to be raised by their grandparents while they work overseas housemaiding and sending money back to their families to raise them. But this is part of their culture and it is the norm. I was raised by my grandparents while my parents worked but neiher of my in-laws would take my kids on for 6 months so that me and the missus could go into combat.

Often it's not about equality - it's about practicality. They day will come, once the solution has been found that is cost effective and workable. At the end of the day, if they are up to the job and they need the money women will find a way. They are resourceful like that.

[DFM]

You said,

"I'd be prepared to change that view if there were evidence to the contrary".:ugh:

In response to an idea from a politician..........

A push by Defence Personnel and Science Minister Greg Combet would remove gender as a criterion for selection for specialised categories of military service.:=


In answer to your quesion,.......... no you wouldn't, now go away:mad:.................and a reply from the front bench opposition spokesman said to Greg, you're A Pillock mate!.............whilst others in the landownunder said............but it's Ostralian to be able to give people the idea that we can all do anything we want to cos that's our right................or was that Monty Python!............both of which are living in fantasy land. :confused:

dumdedumdedumdedumdumdedumdedumdum,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Captain Sand Dune]

Wow, what an act to follow.. :ooh:
When I joined the RAAF, women were not allowed to train as military pilots.
A few years later that all changed, and as Low Ball said they're doing just fine. I have flown with/trained (and on occasion suspended from training) female pilots and surprise, surprise - not much different to the blokes.:hmm:
However what was "surprising" to the politicians, feminazis and other sundry members of the Loony Left was that there was not the flood of female applicants for pilots course. From memory there were four on the first course that allowed female trainees, and I'm pretty sure there has never been more than that on a course.
Can it be..just maybe...perhaps, that being a military aviator doesn't appeal to females as much as it does to males? I'm pretty sure the same applies to submariners (wierd bunch:eek:), special forces, infantry etc. Somehow I can't see masses of female applicants wanting to join the ranks of the SAS, Commandos, ADF flying units, submariners etc.
So what is Combet the Commo's agenda? Is his focus the enhancement of the ADF's operational effectiveness, or just another cynical attempt to curry favour with the female demographic?
I have no problem with women is the ADF. My concern is that once again this issue is being used as political football without proper regard to the effect it may have on our operational effectiveness.

[RJM]

I suspect Greg Combet's agenda is simply to boost the number of first year ADF recruits before the next federal election.

Low Ball, I was being a bit sloppy. My time in the ADF was in the infantry 1971 - 1973 and I was thinking of the army in this instance.

By 'pointy end' I really meant physical combat rather than the pointy end of an aircraft. I have no air force experience, btw, only a PPL, and I have no objections to women flying combat missions.

I suppose on reflection that a strong, fit woman could have completed the infantry training we did, and I read about a lady A10 pilot who for a while was the most effective US pilot in Iraq.

I'm wondering, though, whether having women under direct fire would, regardless of the woman's skills effectively increase the lethality of the enemy's munitions, because a woman can bear more than one child.

[Donkey497]

Why is this an issue?

How many women did the Russians have on the front line in WWII?

Boadicea / Boudicca knocked seven bells out of how many of the roman legions?


So women have an established history of fighting on the front line for a good few years & have you ever seen someone stupid enough to intervene in a fight between two women? Who comes off worst?


Women have fought for equality for many years & I am a firm believer in their right to it. However, it also means you have to take the sh1tty end of the stick as well as any of the perceived benefits, so there should be no bar whatsoever to women in ANY combat position. Every serviceman & servicewoman knows the risks when they sign on the dotted line and as I recall, most of the time there's a clause about obeying lawful order even to the cost of their own lives, so being blunt the wrost that you can have happen to you is spelt out at the start before you join & you shouldn't join if you can't handle that.

[bayete]

Can anyone shed any light on a rumour I heard that the Mil were looking at putting a kid into foster care :eek: so they could send the mother on an out of area? I guess she has nobody to look after the child for her eg. husband/parents.

[saudipc-9]

I've got no problem with this as long as the standard stays the same!!

[Captain Sand Dune]

Some may disagree with me but in the RAAF's experience it has, despite the best efforts of the social engineering of the politicians and some senior officers who pander to it.
I agree - they can panel as many females as they want. As long as they achieve the required standard, good on 'em!

[parabellum]

What an own goal for the politicians when the first woman makes it right the way through SAS training and is posted to a Sabre Squadron, they won't be able to publish either her name or her photograph!

[Wonderwokka]

I might be wrong but I still don't think they accept women in the Royal Marines, SBS or SAS regardless of whether they can complete the training or not (And I mean doing the Commando course and completing selection - I am not talking about Int or other ancillary roles. )

GI Jane is still a fiction in the British Military. Great film though! (Try not to digress about the cinemagraphic experience of GI Jane - it's a throwaway comment really and it wouldn't make my top ten) :} :E

[GalleyTeapot]

They have women in the SRR which advertises itself as the 3rd arm of the UK Special Forces (SAS, SBS, SRR).

[airborne_artist]

They have women in the SRR

The SRR took over 14 Int Coy which had female members from the outset in the 70s.

[Runaway Gun]

What about men who subsequently became women?

[Captain Sand Dune]

Like fighter pilots?:}

[GPMG]

A female army officer did pass the All Arms Commando course a few years ago (although there were rumours about help on the 6 ft wall - possibly chauvinistic rumours bred down the Exmouth Arms).

Good effort on her.

However letting ladies into the Royal Marines would pose 3 serious problems.

1. Changing strenuous training programmes to allow females to participate, and changing living areas, showering, 'bivvying', PC attitudes ( a major hurdle) etc

2. When to get naked in the bar and when to stay clothed.

3. Not being upstaged on a silly rig run ashore whilst wearing mini skirt, sussies and wig.

There are some women that are capable of passing the 30 week course, but cost of extra facilities, changes to training programme and the answers to points 2 & 3 may prove too difficult to answer.

Lets not try to fix something that certainly isn't broken.

Nothing terrifies Terry Taliban more than the knowledge that the blokes that are more than capable of killing them, also know how to throw a 'Phil Tuffnell' punch whilst wearing a 'small black dress' and size 10 high heels.

[Siggie]

Captain Sand Dune wrote:

As long as they achieve the required standard, good on 'em!

I totally agree with you, however, our lordhips would find it very tempting to move the line a bit to the left should not enough of the fairer sex make the grade. It may be forced on them by the pollies.

According to what I heard on the radio (and SAFM never lie) the idea is to have an acceptable level for each mustering or trade group, irrespective of sex.

How could they implement this? Where do you draw the line in the sand, at the level of the oldest female? If it is at a higher level, how do you get rid of the people who can't make the level and are already doing the job?

Is there then a need for a seperate PFT, or is there an acceptable level for each group, irrespective of age or sex?

Just trying to implement this would open a huge can of worms, one which hasn't even begun to be thought through.

[sisemen]

During my time at MOD as a staff officer the debate was on about employing women as front-line fast jet pilots/aircrew. We were tasked with eliciting the opinions of all those western armed forces that had already gone down that path (think Israel etc).

Without exception they all came back to us and said, in a word, DON'T DO IT!

[Captain Sand Dune]

however, our lordhips would find it very tempting to move the line a bit to the left should not enough of the fairer sex make the grade. It may be forced on them by the pollies.
There was a bit of that when the first females turned up on RAAF pilots course. However now the novelty has worn off and thankfully the girls are given exactly the same opportunities as the boys.
Without exception they all came back to us and said, in a word, DON'T DO IT!
That’s actually three words………..however, funny old thing that! However as we all know a defence force is the plaything of the government. In Oz it also happens to be a bit of a laboratory for those in government (generally the Left wing types) who like a little experimentation in social engineering.
As far as flying training in the ADF goes I’m happy that they can throw as many females at us as they like , but the standard will still be maintained. The potential grief for a senior officer for not fielding as many females on pilots course as the pollies would like would be nothing compared to what would happen if a female spuds in and it came to light that she had not been able to make the grade and was “pushed through”.

[sisemen]

Better bras please, ask women soldiers - The West Australian (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/mp/6090126/better-bras-please-ask-women-soldiers/)


Swedish female soldiers are demanding the military provide them with combat-tested bras, amid complaints that the sports bras they must buy themselves unhook too easily, officials say.
Unlike their male counterparts who are provided with military-issue underwear, Sweden's 500-odd women conscripts must buy bras themselves since there are no military-issue brassieres, according to the Council of Conscripts, a union-like organisation.
"The women have had to buy sports bras instead. But they are not tested for combat situations nor for fire safety, and they are not functional. They unhook too easily," Council spokeswoman Paulina Rehbinder told AFP.
She criticised the military for its lack of gender equality, in a country widely considered a pioneer in the field.


:D

[The Wawa Zone]

Women have been flying all RAAF aircraft for years. This latest thought bubble is about Land Warfare, with the phrase "frontline service" being bandied around. It sounds like "frontline service" is something about living in a first world war trench and relying on 200 meter marksmanship to win the day...?

So lets get 50 women into 4RAR ?

999 out of 1000 women just will NOT be able to carry the 40Kg+ for the big Km's at +40 C / -10C etc, consistently day in day out, all day and half the night, then go and do an attack that may go for a few days. Some could try, but succeed only as weak links, which is a zero. And the weaker dudes (15%) will cluster around them.

The WW2 era Soviets tried it because the needed a max effort, but ceased employing women after they won. The IDF tried it also, but only in the 1948 war, and ceased afterwards because of the effect of WIA/KIA females on male soldiers. The present era IDF has some mixed gender border guard units but no mixed main force Infantry units, so the idea of using the IDF as an example for the ADF to follow is invalid.

Realistically, as soon as women want to and then actually do, on equal terms with males, play and succeed at first grade rugby league or in internationally recognised title middleweight kickboxing, then the ADF may actually get some women who both want to and do become effective in Infantry / Armour / Artillery. Until then - yeah, you might get a couple of big fit girls starting Infantry IET but my guess is that they'll be crawling along with their chins in the dirt 1000m behind the blokes by about week 4....

I just don't see what we gain as a society by sending women off to get hosed at by equal opportunity 7.62 but with less survival probability than male soldiers.

[Gravelbelly]

999 out of 1000 women just will NOT be able to carry the 40Kg+ for the big Km's at +40 C / -10C etc, consistently day in day out, all day and half the night, then go and do an attack that may go for a few days. Some could try, but succeed only as weak links, which is a zero.

Read the following:
Precision Voting (http://www.michaelyon-online.com/precision-voting.htm)
Look at the pictures. End of patrol, women still carrying all their own kit.

See also:
Night Into Day (http://www.michaelyon-online.com/night-into-day.htm)

As for your "only weak links" comment, I suggest you consider the two young female medics who have earned the Military Cross.
Able Seaman Kate Nesbitt (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/6168951/First-Royal-Navy-female-awarded-Military-Cross-for-Afghanistan-bravery.html) in Afghanistan
Private Michelle Norris (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23378332-teenage-army-medic-becomes-first-woman-to-win-military-cross.do;jsessionid=DD30BC7AABCEEA1F40E20D6D8B6E1390) in Iraq

When I discover I'm wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?

[GreenKnight121]

Well, the USN is talking about putting women in nuc subs now... to the experimentation proceeds.

U.S. military may lift ban on women in submarines - Yahoo! Canada News (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/090925/us/usreport_us_usa_submarines_women)

U.S. military may lift ban on women in submarines 1 hour, 53 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Top Pentagon officials are calling for an end to the U.S. military's historical ban on allowing women to serve in submarines.

Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the top U.S. military officer, advocated the policy change in written congressional testimony distributed by his office to reporters on Friday.

"I believe we should continue to broaden opportunities for women. One policy I would like to see changed is the one barring (women's) service aboard submarines," Mullen said.
Navy Secretary Ray Mabus said he was "moving out aggressively on this."

"I am very comfortable addressing integrating women into the submarine force," Admiral Gary Roughead, chief of naval operations, said in a statement.

Women account for about 15 percent of the more than 336,000 members of the U.S. Navy and can serve on its surface ships. But critics have argued that submarines are different, pointing to cramped quarters where some crews share beds in shifts.

Nancy Duff Campbell, an advocate for expanding the role of women in the U.S. armed forces, said it would be easy to resolve problems associated with so-called "hot-bunking."

"They say, 'How could we have the women sleeping in the same area as men?'" said Campbell, co-president of the National Women's Law Center (NWLC).

"But they already separate where the officers sleep from the enlisted, so it's not like it can't be done."

Roughead said the problem of sorting out accommodations on the U.S. fleet of 71 submarines was not insurmountable.

Allowing women on submarines would be another step forward in expanding the role of women in the U.S. military. Last year, a woman was promoted to the rank of four-star general for the first time.

Women are still barred from traditional frontline combat roles in the U.S. military. But female soldiers often run the same risks as men in Iraq and Afghanistan, where bombings and other insurgent attacks can happen almost anywhere and target any U.S. unit.

(Reporting by Phil Stewart; editing by Paul Simao)


Of course, the testimony Mullen was giving to Congress was at a hearing to reconfirm him as Chairman Joint Chiefs.

Therefore, this can be translated as "In order to keep my position of ultimate power in the US military, I'll now say something that will please both the sitting president and the ruling party in Congress by fitting in with their social agendas".

Lots of discussion here: USN to lift ban on women on submarines?! - The United States Navy - NavWeaps Discussion Boards - NavWeaps Discussion Boards - Message Board - Yuku (http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/11026)

[Trojan1981]

The simple facts are that the ADF does not maintain the same standards for serving men and women.

The BFA standards for women are generally much lower than they are for men.

The Introduction of women, in support roles, to one of my former units (an infantry battalion) has quickly erroded the units previously high standards.
The COs fitness test (which was bloddy hard for blokes) has been abolished and many of the women posted in are having to undertake remedial PT to get up to standard for certain courses.

I have met women in the ADF who were fitter than, and had had as much endurance as, most men. I know there are women who can make it.

This idea is fine if the standards maintained are the same, but they are not now and are therefore unlikely to be in the future.

For that reason alone going down this path will result in a weaker ADF.

[The Wawa Zone]

Hi Gravel,

I appreciate your point, and those reports are excellent. The female medics discussed are not weak links in any sense.

However, female platoon medics being highly effective in that role, doing 8-10 hours on foot over maybe 10,000 meters with a Med pack plus webbing and weapon, does not prove that they can do it as #1 or 2 on a section's GPMG, or carrying a mortar baseplate or the other gear carried by the fighting elements of an Infantry section. Or, have the speed and strength requirements in a hand 2 hand bloodbath ( or do we exclude female Infantry from clearing ops in populated built up areas in no/lo light conditions, etc).

If women do get as far as deployments within Infantry units, fine. They'll either do the job or get casevaced as exhaustion cases. My guess is that the actual numbers you could count on one hand.

Somehow I can't see us being a world leader on this one.

The RAN has had mixed submarine crews for a while.

[Gravelbelly]

If women do get as far as deployments within Infantry units, fine.

Except it's not just medics - it's RMP, Royal Engineers, Royal Artillery. Try telling the FOO, or the Combat Engineer, that they aren't as far forward as the infantry they're supporting, or carrying as much kit. Yes, it's f***ing hard work, but then most blokes can't hack it either.

The Canadians are in Afghanistan; they have women in the infantry.
Captain Nichola Goddard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichola_Goddard) was a FOO
Trooper Karine Blais (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/04/13/afghan.html) was Cavalry, but serving with 2nd Battalion, Royal 22nd Regiment Battle Group.

As for closing with the enemy and killing them, an MP called Sergeant Leigh Ann Hester (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Ann_Hester) earned a Silver Star doing just that.

[The Wawa Zone]

Hi Gravel, no, I meant deployment within Infantry units as Infantry, but again, all good examples. No one doubts that women can do their jobs and more when required. Also, Google on Monica Lin Brown's Siver Star.
However, the quoted examples are all the result of vehicle ambushes and/or consequent mounted or dismounted counter ambush drills - mostly over in 1/2 an hour or less, with little movement and with the area soon dominated by an overwatch force.

None of these, however, give support to the proposition that a fighting unit with a significant percentage of females in offensive roles is equally as effective as a conventional all male unit, during an extended period of high tempo ops where physical strength and endurance have progressively greater opportunites to become critical to unit survival. Note that this includes the period after the first adhreniline hit is long gone.
The point often overlooked is the effect of women in offensive roles on the military force's effectivesness, not whether women, as individuals, can do their jobs under fire.

The proof will come out in the pass rate for women in Infantry / Artillery / Eng IET (still the current Aus-speak, I think), plus the debrief/ LLs after a (eg.) four week high tempo exercise. If the female soldiers are still there and the exercise mixed units were effective, then objections will fade away. If the books where cooked to achieve the result, there will soon be much misery for anyone not smart enough to be elsewhere asap.

How much latitude can we allow in unit effectiveness ? The answer could be - for what trade-off, and what is the margin in a "near run thing" ?

[MTOW]

A question: after the 'Atlantic Conveyor' was sunk, with all bar one of the Chinooks sent to the Falklands lost, the Marines and the Paras walked with staggering (literally?) personal loads, across really uninviting terrain in truly horrible weather - and during and towards the end of that exhausting forced march, fought more than one very nasty engagement, some involving one on one hand to hand combat with an entrenched enemy, (where, let’s face it, sometimes, support arriving on scene literally one minute earlier than it might have can make all the difference in the world to the outcome of said engagement).

Would an infantry force with a significant percentage of females making up its numbers have performed to exactly the same degree of effectiveness? Forget the imponderables like fighting effectiveness after the forced march for one moment if you will and consider only how long it took that force to get from ‘A’ to ‘B’.

I'm impressed and not a little in awe of the female medics I see operating with the Brit forces in Afghanistan, but having said that, I think the important word in that question above is 'exactly'. I’m an over 6’ male who passed all the required military physical tests in my youth, but I doubt very much if at the height of my physical fitness, I’d have coped with the loads I saw those soldiers carrying over the distance they carried them and been of any use in a firefight for some time afterwards.