Bankruptcy - Does it affect employment?

[Crash&burnking]

I ask this question for UK airlines mainly but if anyone has knowledge of world ailrines policy I'd be interested also.

I have been declared bankrupt over a year or so now. My question is this... if I hold all the qualifications necessary, is there anything that will prevent me from being employed by an airline with this bankruptcy status over my head?

Thanks in advance.

[redsnail]

Not knowing every airline's requirements it's difficult to answer.

With your bankruptcy, are you permitted to hold a credit card?

If not, that may have some influence with the airlines that issue you a credit card to pay for accommodation and so on.

[balhambob]

Are you aware that after 3 years your bankrupcy will be over and you should no longer need to declare it?

[flybyshark]

It shouldnt, although its a question many employers are asking nowadays......

I was in a difficult position a few years ago and looked at IVA but after getting some good advice on it didnt bother as you might as well go bankrupt instead.

The only issue at the time was that for certain airlines being bankrupt or had been bankrupt made getting Captaincy questionable as you were seen to be 'influencable' by outside parameters.

Dont know if this is still the case, I bet there are some guys in chief positions in airlines on the brink of bankruptcy :eek:

[v6g]

I consider the only reason some airlines appear to favour employing integrated pilots over modular is because they have considerably more debt, thereby making them much better employees. They'll do anything to keep those repayments going - whereas non-indebted employees have a certain freedom that often leads to .... how shall I say this .... "independent spirits".

I doubt bankrutpcy itself would cause any problems but not having any debt might make an airline less likely to want to hire you - not that they are likely to find that out of course.

[betpump5]

v6g,

BS post of the month award.

Are you telling me that a mod pilot would behave less professionally purely because if they were sacked, or given a slap on the wrist, they can just walk into another job purely because they are in less debt? Even during the boom times of the industry?

I've never heard so much rubbish in my life.

not having any debt might make an airline less likely to want to hire you

BS once again.

[BoeingMEL]

UK personal bankruptcies are normally dischaged after 12 months..not 3 years! Crash n burn, PM me if you want expertguidance. BM

[portsharbourflyer]

It depends on the airlines training bond policy.

For example Eastern Airlines and Cityjet both have a training "bond" that is infact a loan taken out in your name (the airline makes the loan repayments for you during your bond period). This is a way to get around the tenuous nature of training bonds, because in the event of you leaving the company early the loan is in your name and you are personally liable (so in fact not really a training bond). I believe the Easyjet TRSS entry route use to entail a similar loan arrangement.

In this instance it is likely that due to your bankrupcy you will not be approved for the loan; hence in this case the airline will be unable to employ you. Further to this a number of companies have straight out Self Sponsored type ratings, so if you don't have the cash to pay for the rating then once more you may find it difficult to obtain a loan for such a scheme.
So while it doesn't stop you obtaining employment, it will certainly limit the companies that you are able to work for.

[Dr Eckener]

I've never heard so much rubbish in my life.
Errr, I think there was a touch of sarcasm in the post. Personally, I thought it was quite amusing. Guess you just have zero sense of humour. :ugh:

[Jumbo744]

v6g,

BS post of the month award.

Are you telling me that a mod pilot would behave less professionally purely because if they were sacked, or given a slap on the wrist, they can just walk into another job purely because they are in less debt? Even during the boom times of the industry?

I've never heard so much rubbish in my life.

Quote:
not having any debt might make an airline less likely to want to hire you
BS once again.V6g actually deserves the BS post of the decade award. I don't understand where some of these guys get their facts from....surely not from this planet :yuk:

Ladies and gentlemen, here are the new industry requirements for a First Officer Position:

_ATPL Licence
_Minimum of 1500h total time
_ ICAO level 4 proficiency
_Proof of heavy debt (certified by an international bank)

Only those meeting those requirements will be contacted.

:D

[Agaricus bisporus]

It may be that some here work for employers who are more traditional in their approach to employees and aren't aware of what goes on elsewhere - to them I say v6g is making a statement of fact that applies to a great many newer companies, some of them very large indeed.

That, sadly, is the reality for many new guys, especially in some of the locos.

Betpump, actually I think he's implying the opposite. Indebted pilots are far more likely to be subservient to the company when contentious matters arise - and may well not act as robustly as others might. Would they strike, for instance?
If some won't even go sick/decline discretion because it "goes on my record and might affect command prospects" how do you suppose a £50,000 debt might affect their actions? They're only human, after all.

[balhambob]

UK personal bankruptcies are normally dischaged after 12 months..not 3 years! Crash n burn, PM me if you want expertguidance. BM


Well done you are right but it did used to be 3 years before the Enterprise Act kicked in. I dont pay much attention to Insolvency Law as I dont intent to go bankrupt.

As for PMing you for 'expertguidance' - no thanks! :)

[heli_port]

Increasingly employers are carrying out a credit check on potential employees and asking them the question "have you ever been declared bankrupt?" I don't know the knock on effect if the answer is yes. Did you go down the integrated route and over extend yourself? sounds like it..

[Agaricus bisporus]

Unless there is a loan involved for training I'm intrigued to know why an employer would want to be so intrusive - what has that got to do with piloting?

I can't see why it would affect the issue of a company credit card as it is the company, not the cardholder who pays the bills.

Downright bloody nosey, if you ask me.

[Kelly Hopper]

With a company credit card the responsibility for repaying the debt back is shared between the cardholder and the company. That means the company makes the payments each month until they can't/don't.
If the lender cannot retrieve the funds from the company guess who gets lumbered with the problem?

[zondaracer]

Just come to the USA! Every other airline is Bankrupt, why would they expect so much more from their employees' finances? JK

[jamestkirk]

Not sure about that but i could be wrong.

As far as I know the employee does not sign a CCA or gaurantor (spelt wrong probably).

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Firstly the employer cannot ask and cannot use your bankruptcy against you.

Secondly its over in 2 years.

Thirdly its perfectly possible that some airlines prefer to have co-pilots (for that is what you will be) who are heavily in debt. You're much less likely to go on strike, pay union subs or complain when moved around.


I think personal bankruptcy is admirable and logical. The banks showered this money out recklessly - don't spend the next 25 years of your life slaving to pay them back the money they invented. It usury. Jesus showed them the finger - I suggest Wannabes heavily in debt do the same.


WWW


Usury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury)

[v6g]

Tunbridge Wells the 'debt capital of Europe' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/6219396/Tunbridge-Wells-the-debt-capital-of-Europe.html)

a German pilot with debts of £100,000 to move to Britain to clear his debts.

[Bealzebub]

Jesus showed them the finger - I suggest Wannabes heavily in debt do the same.

He was crucified as well, so perhaps not the best analogy. Other peoples supposed recklessness, is neither a template nor an excuse for your own. I would venture that anybody who thinks it is, displays a level of responsibility and maturity that falls well short of that often sought out in prospective pilots.

Clearly there are people who find themselves in this situation, and where bankruptcy is unavoidable, for many of them there may be no choice or it is the lesser of two evils. Bankruptcy may be a way forward, but the suggestion that it has no future repercussions is naive and erroneous. A bankruptcy may be discharged, but that is a very different concept from the one where it no longer has to be declared if the question is asked, or that anyone would have to disregard it in deciding on an individuals risk status.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A friend of mine has two under his belt. It means nothing these days and the consequences are slight compared to the slog of repaying the debt plus interest.

Its not as if these banks actually hand over savings deposits to people. They invent the money. It never existed. Go bankrupt and don't pay it back - some numbers on a screen somewhere are arranged differently. Better that than worrying yourself to the edge of Beachy Head about a level of debt that should never have been offered to you by people who should know better.


WWW

[Bealzebub]

Ah yes "friends". Not something that propelled you to your current position then? The ramifications from a bankruptcy can involve losing your home, and or diffculties in being able to finance one in the future. Loss of competitiveness when others can borrow money and you cannot.
Problems with families and relationships when money that might have been available to you, now isn't.

It is all very well to promote the idea of bankruptcy as a harmless and inconsequential solution, justified by your perception of the folly of others, but it is at best irresponsible and should come with a serious health warning.

[TheBeak]

I am with WWW on this one, if the debt is unsecured and is taking it's toll then bankrupcy will not ruin your life. If the debt is that unmanageable then the chances are you wont be able to get a mortgage or any other form of borrowing anyway. Once a bankruptcy is cleared, it is cleared and borrowing beyond that is unaffected - certainly in the cases I have heard of. If the debt is secured then bankrupcy could be a major problem for someone else. It is then your responsibility to dedicate your life to servicing the debt until it is cleared.

And this is my problem with the Ryanair TR for integrated cadets. A bunch of desperate buggers typically with £20K of uni debt, £/E100K of training debt and E45K of TR debt (taking into account terms of the debt).That's about E175K of debt! You may be a pilot but you'll have nothing to show for it and when you retire, you'll really see the consequences then. I am not having a go, I am just saying. And you'll need E60K to service the debt.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

23 year old wannabes with nothing to their name other than a blue book from the CAA and a £80k training debt are going bankrupt every day. They'd be mad not to. The judges love it. Easiest ruling they made all day.

If Wannabes are unaware of how others seem able to fund a whole Frzn ATPL and THEN fund a type rating then all I'm doing is removing ignorance.

The average Wannabe is a man of straw.

More fool the banks who wrote him a loan of invented money.


WWW

[superdash]

Wee Weasley Welshman

Finally a post of yours that I 100% agree with. A friend of mine went bankrupt last year and he said it was the easiest 5 mintutes of his life. The judge was more interested in talking about aeroplanes than money :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I get this a lot via PM.


Its rife.


Those who don't used planned bankruptcy are mugs.

Brutal.

True.



WWW

[UAV689]

Maybe I should change my plan

1 - give the money saved towards my atpl to the well paid missus to use as a deposit for our first house (all in her name)
2- take out loads of credit cards in my name while i am still working in a decent job.
3- fund all cpl/ir on cards
4 - declare myself out the game, i have no assets, yet me and my-unmarried missus have a house brought in the price crash and i have my cpl/ir. Kinda of a 2 for 1, as once i had my CPL i was gonna have to start saving all over again for a house!

Would that plan work? I think I could live with the hassle of using top-up cards on my mobile if it meant I could would get a house as well as my CPL!

maybe i will do some research into this....!

[MVE]

Integrity?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

23 year old wannabes with nothing to their name other than a blue book from the CAA and a £80k training debt are going bankrupt every day. They'd be mad not to. The judges love it. Easiest ruling they made all day.

If Wannabes are unaware of how others seem able to fund a whole Frzn ATPL and THEN fund a type rating then all I'm doing is removing ignorance.

The average Wannabe is a man of straw.

More fool the banks who wrote him a loan of invented money.


WWW

[UAV689]

Integrity?

Do our elected politians have integrity when they submit huge expense bills to clear their moats? Or pay their children out of tax payers money for doing fictitious jobs? Or perhaps the married MPs that lived in the same house together and both claimed a second house allowance have integrity?

Ok so they are politicians, we cant expect them to have integrity.

How about the poor old banks? Surely they must have integrity when they dish out loans and mortgages to people that could never afford them? Or they must be good honest people when the tax payer bails them out, we wouldn't bail out crooks would we? What about when the govenment makes lots of crisp new money notes for them and they dont lend it to small buisnesses but yet still pay themselves bonuses? Or perhaps Fred the Shred has integrity when he takes his £16m pension for nearly sending a bank under?

What about the d list clebs that spend 6 months of their life auctioning off their vagina to a football team and then go crying to the press after they have been mistreated by some paparazi, probably the same pap that made the a d-list celeb in the first place. Do they have integrity?

Or what about the FTO's? They are honest aren't they for they are brother pilots are they not? Surely they must have un-told intregrity when they promise 18 yr old wannabe's that by paying them 70k they will walk striaght into the right hand seat.

Perhaps the only people that our leaders want to be honest are their subjects, for it makes them more money.

I work 7 days a week at the moment, have done for the last 18 months whilst studing for my atpls every night (next day off Dec 19th...) Perhaps its about time i stuck 2 fingers up to the twats mentioned above and undertake my cunning plan, for sure I have no role models in the public domain to teach me integrity.

[superdash]

Good post UAV.

90% of People live in 'The Matrix' or may as well.

[TheBeak]

Excellent post UAV!

[MVE]

:{ Everyone else I read about in the papers is a liar and a cheat so why shouldn't I be?

If you can't beat them, vote them out, don't join them!

WWW the only ignorance in your post is the claim you are 'informing' people. What you are actually doing is encouraging fraud and dishonesty, not exactly what you would expect of a professional pilot.

Brutal.
True.
;-)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

How can telling the truth ever be fraudulent or dishonest?

Every day Wannabes are using the bankruptcy courts to wash away their £80k training loans.

Its happening.

Its easy.

There are very few snags.

Its therefore logical.

Some Wannabes don't know this information.

Those reading here now do.



Save your moralising because I couldn't give a 5h1t about morals and banks.


WWW

[one post only!]

Integrity, even if you did run up massive debts as described and then went bankrupt you will still only cost the bank a tiny tiny tiny proportion of what they hand out in bonuses to their staff to gamble with our money, livelihoods and the economy.

Politicians, bankers, Company directors...all taking bonuses, expenses, fiddling, stealing!!!

Do it UAV, consider it your bonus from the banks!!!

Oh, I suddenly feel a bit of an anarchist.........! Take em down brothers, make em pay!

[UAV689]

Like the above post I have no issues what so ever in getting on over on the banks, they have no right what so ever to claim the high ground on this one, after the last 2 years the mess they have put the world in.

Last night, in bed I was giving it some serious thought - it would allow me to get a house and my CPL. Buy one get one free.

But how would I go about giving my missus the 20k i have in the bank? In the courts it would look like a planned brankruptcy if i give her 20k, then the following week take out 30k on 10 credit cards and 6 months down the line i declare i'm out the game. I dont think it would take the detective prowess of columbo to figure out what i am doing, and surely then there would be ramifications.

Banks always talk about finacial vehicles - perhaps i buy my missus a nice new vehicle, in her name as a xmas pressie, then get the cards out, do my training, go pop, sell her car and then get the house....

[MVE]

Telling the truth is neither fraudulant or dishonest. Telling wannabes to apply for a loan they never intend to pay back is encouraging fraud and dishonesty.
No judge will allow you to delclare bankruptcy based on what you are encouraging.

It's very easy for you to sit there and encourage naive individuals to go through life lieing and cheating and stealing, because that is exactly what you are doing. The very reason the banks are in this mess is because of people like you, with morals like yours. Don't sit on your high horse, comfortable in a well paid job, having got over the hurdles of being a wannabe and then encourage others to lie and steal there way to a license.

WWW no judge ever delights in signing off on someone's bankrupcy and it's naive of you to say so. If you have nothing constructive to say other than others are getting away with it so why don't you try, keep it to yourself!

For those of you naive enough to listen to his clap trap, consider this, if you were sat in the interview chair and the chief pilot asked you about how you financed your license, what lies would you tell to cover up your planned bankruptcy? or would you be happy to explain how you lied your way to the loan?

Quote -'But how would I go about giving my missus the 20k i have in the bank? In the courts it would look like a planned brankruptcy if i give her 20k, then the following week take out 30k on 10 credit cards and 6 months down the line i declare i'm out the game. I dont think it would take the detective prowess of columbo to figure out what i am doing, and surely then there would be ramifications.' - Ramifications like a possible prison sentence, your wife facing criminal charges, loss of your house to pay back the debts etc.etc.

Think long and hard about doing what WWW is very casualy suggesting, perhaps he'd like to put in writing for you and guarantee his house against his advice going wrong?

Incredible that Danny is happy to have people like you as a moderator WWW, you should be ashamed of yourself!

[UAV689]

The thing is if i go down this route, I have funded the license through hard work, I have spent the last 18 months working 7 days a week.

It is the house bit I consider the freebie in the buy one get one free part!

It is all becoming very tempting.

[G SXTY]

Save your moralising because I couldn't give a 5h1t about morals and banks.


Remind me - who is paying to rescue the banks from years of reckless lending to people who couldn't repay their debts? :hmm:

[Grass strip basher]

Ah a total breakdown of social responsibility right from the top to the very bottom of society.... makes you proud to be British.... :yuk:

How did this crisis start again... ah yes it was those bankers... all their fault.... damn them.... in fact it is their fault I forgot the wife's birthday... and that speeding ticket I got... bankers to blame..... drunk driving charge?? Well if it wasn't for those bankers I wouldn't have been drinking....

:mad: pathetic .... grow an :mad: backbone and take some responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming others.....

[MVE]

Anyone know who watches out for PPRUNE regarding legal ramifications to the posts on here? Perhaps they should be made aware of the 'advice' from one of their own moderators?:eek:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Calm down dear, its just bankruptcy.

Whether or not I think its a good idea or not I see no reason not to talk about it amongst Wannabes. It is happening. It was predicted to happen. It does work. It is a Wannabe issue. Wannabes who are unaware risk being out-spent in the war of training expenditure.

I paid for all my training bar a bit that the dear old RAF funded. I borrowed money. I paid it back. I've had several mortgages and paid them back. I'm law abiding, I give to charity, I'm slightly to the right of Norman Tebbit. But I have every sympathy for a Wannabe who now finds that it costs a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC + Boing/Bus Type Rating + temporary contract to get a foot on the ladder. I have every sympathy for the Wannabe who found the banks and the schools falling over themselves to arrange £80k+ to be loaned to them based on an assumption of employment that was recklessly optimisitic.

For a bankruptcy court judge his easiest part of the day is extending protection to the 23yr old who owes £80k to HSBC and has nought to his name other than a crappy blue plastic license from the CAA. So much more clear cut and simple than the usual court appearance where some dozy bint ran up £40k on her 5 credit cards and fell behind with the Northern Rock mortgage and the payments on her Mini/iPhone/Store Card.

Thanks for the concerns about legal issues but there are none.

Wannabes are going bankrupt at an ever increasing pace. Some have planned to from the beginning. It is illegal but it is quite logical, practical and it gains them massive advantage.

Telling people that is something I think is right. Clearly you don't.


WWW

[MVE]

I think personal bankruptcy is admirable and logical.

It means nothing these days and the consequences are slight compared to the slog of repaying the debt plus interest.

Those who don't used planned bankruptcy are mugs.

Its easy.
There are very few snags.
Its therefore logical.

and it gains them massive advantage.

It is illegal but it is quite logical.

Calm down dear, its just bankruptcy.


The mind boggles.....:ugh:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its easily boggled then.


WWW

[UAV689]

Is there any way we can get a poll on here asking how many pilots have declared themselves bankrupt? Would be interesting to see.

You have to treat all these loopholes as all part of the game. Everyone is in on it from the heads of banks, large companies (look at the rover bosses..), to the weasels that run this broken bankrupt rock in the middle of the atlantic. Everyone is on the take.

Its just all part of the game.

[TheBeak]

I have two views on this.

If someone, of any age, has been stupid enough to secure their flight training debt against their families homes then the risk is all theirs. Bankruptcy is not and should not be an option. It can not be. These chancers will get what they deserve ultimately. I know that I certainly wouldn't have put my parents home up as security for flight training so that is my justification.

If someone is offered unsecured debt to carry out flight training, the risk is all the banks, they have employed highly paid risk analysts and number crunchers to weigh up the risk. If you want to be a pilot, you'd be a fool not to take it given the chance. If you can't pay it off or it is strangling your life then the sensible thing to do is relieve yourself of it. That risk has been bulit in to the loan. Taking into account the fact that WWW very correctly pointed out that the money never actually existed, just makes the whole process feel that little bit better, fair and even.

In the second, unsecured case it is perhaps exploitation of someones 'weakness' but then again so is what the likes of Ryanair do and people seem more than happy with that don't they?

Everyone needs to do what they need to do and 18-25 year olds that have tapped their parents up with a huge relatively short term debt are going to need to grow up and wise up pretty quickly.

[Grass strip basher]

so if I have my life savings on deposit with the bank and it goes under because of people failing to pay back the obligations they have signed up for on the other side of the balance sheet.... but it doesn't matter because the money I earnt busting my balls didn't exist anyway.... oh well that alright then.... better tell the folks who had their money with ice-save it didn't exisit anyway.... I am sure they won't give a s**t....

:mad: saving money.... borrow as much moooolar as you can then just tell the bank to f'off..... I'm alright jack.... sooo remind me how we got into this mess.... hmmm....

(p.s. I am fully aware of how a fractional reserve banking system works.... I just think you guys sometimes have a very very very twisted view of the world of banking and what is the correct direction for a moral compass to point).

[UAV689]

But the banks for the last 15 years have been lending out more money than they have had on deposits from your hard work anyway?!

Look at northen rock, they were giving out loans 125% value of an over inflated property - a am sure a school child can see that is a bad idea.

Like the beak said, if you can get an unsecured loan, and you have no assets that can be seized (will the bank want my r reg mondeo with 135k on the clock..?) it is the banks problem to worry about.

Any flying lawyers out there to help me on my budding idea?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My moral compass would lead me to gassing bankers. To quote a man whom I admire most greatly:


I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.

Thomas Jefferson,
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)


Obviously planned bankruptcy is illegal and can result in your being prosecuted and imprisoned. So its not something to be treated lightly.

However. It is a strategy,i t does work, and Wannabes need to know that they are in a race where other competitors ARE planning to use this strategy.

Almost all Wannabe will be heavily in debt, asset poor and unemployed at the end of their training. Personal bankruptcy is therefore uniquely painless for them. With training debts removed it becomes far easier to fund a type rating and accept casual employment or contracting work wherever it might be.

Wannabes are up against those armed with plans for bankruptcy.

Its a fact.


WWW

[TheBeak]

It is not just the banks problem but it is the banks calculated risk. UAV, I hear what you are saying and it all sounds good, but, sure as anything there will be latent consequences to bankruptcy that you could never have predicted, certainly going about it the way you are considering. It would appear openly reckless. And you know and I know that it isn't necessary to hurry through it right now. Spread it a bit, make some attempts to repay it, see how you go, and then, if it all becomes too much, bankruptcy is there for you. Transfer 20K to your wife, sign the house over to her and spunk 30K on credit cards all within 2-6 months and you might receive a spell in the slammer!

Anybody would be silly setting out bankruptcy intended. It is like preparing to fail. BUT, it is a tool that is there, for those with unsecured debts and a huge amount of strain which NEEDS to be relieved. It has been calculated as an acceptable risk by the banks. You know, not everyone can win at everything all of the time - and that includes the banks. They would have self perpetuating money otherwise. It is a gamble for the banks that wont always pay off.

The fact of the matter is, you should not allow an unsecured debt to monopolise your life - that's not what life is about. You also should not let it monopolise someone elses though if you have secured the debt - then bankruptcy is not an option.

As for the type of bankruptcy that prat Grant Bovey and Anthea Turner have toyed with several times, that is disgraceful, appauling and deplorable. A hard working trainee pilot who has taken up the banks offer at a chance on their life to achieve their dream, with no security, is not in the same league. It's not in the same multiverse.

[UAV689]

I honestly dont actually think it is something I will do and have only being playing devil's advocate on this thread for the last 2 days. I would certainly never risk going to jail, for with my looks and cute rear I would get a lot of un-wanted attention, certainly that kind of attention may cause lasting damage that would inhibit the ability to be able to sit down in a first officers seat for an 8 hour flight :}

I do however stand by my comments on integrity and about banks lending money they dont have.

people that have seen my previous posts on other threads will have seen that I am all for hard work and earning your right to something. However if I was funding training through loans (which I am not) I certainly wouldnt be worrying myself all the way to beachy head as WWW puts it, and would look at envoking the enterprise act. I believe after all one of the aims of it was to help people setting up buisnesses have some protection when it fails, and enbarking on pilot training could be looked upon as a buisness of your future earnings.

I would still love to know how many pilots have done it, sadly with the unjustified stigma that is still attached to bankruptcy i dont think people 'fess up on here.

[no sponsor]

There was plenty of money made today on the markets, as my trading account testifies!

Bankruptcy will only serve to blacklist the profession, and no-one will lend to anyone who wants to train.

From my perspective, this is an excellent outcome, and perhaps I will become a sought after skilled employee with a decent salary good conditions and a pay-rise.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Quite so. A lack of credit for flight training would be a godsend for all but the airline beancounters.

WWW

[Bealzebub]

Oh and not forgetting the Flying instructors, and their families and the others whose business is tied to flight training, and the businesses that are afilliated to flight training and their employees and their families.

I wonder if some people sing the national anthem whilst substituting every word with "ME?" Maybe not such a Godsend after all?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

They are all parasites who exist to separate Wannabes from their money.

I have been deep deep deep into the flying training business at all levels. I know that all they care about is the next sucker with a cheque book. Sure, they like it when students get jobs. But they don't care when they don't and they sure as hell don't put anyone off spending their money.

I don't think they are evil. But they deserve no special compassion.

For every school trying to do their best there are two others who are utter sharks.


WWW

[Bealzebub]

Most businesses exist to seperate "wannabes" from their money. Your employer exists to seperate passengers from theirs. Your stockbroker, swimming pool supplier and estate agent all exist to separate you from yours.
They don't much care how you raise the money either, only that you can pay for what they are selling.

There are plenty of businesses that take customers money and disappear under the blanket of bankruptcy as well. Do you advocate this practice as well? I am guessing not if it is your swimming pool that is at stake!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Most businesses exist to seperate "wannabes" from their money. Your employer exists to seperate passengers from theirs. Your stockbroker, swimming pool supplier and estate agent all exist to separate you from yours.
They don't much care how you raise the money either, only that you can pay for what they are selling.


No - my employer, stockbroker (if I had such a thing) and swimming pool supplier deliver a service that I am happy to pay for. They don't peddle a dream that is unattainable under the current industry climate.

And FTO's do peddle lies. Lies of omission. And just plain lies. I've been there and seen them do it. Recently.

You just hate it when someone tells the truth. Therefore you are Satan.



WWW

[UAV689]

bealzebub - if all funding for flying training were to dry up, I dont think it would spell then end for all FIs and flying schools.

The airlines would still need aircrew, its just they would have to start paying for their training again.

The supply and demand curve.

HN1708 - all the best with the bankruptcy, I am sure it will be the wisest choice you will make.

If nothing else wannabe's should/could use bankruptcy as a 'training failure protection'. If you fail training and your not cut out for flying but have spent thousands, just press the ctrl alt del keys and reboot, you have lost nothing!

Over the last 2-3 years my black and white financial view on morality and honesty have to be honest been turned upside down. Especially with the expenses/bonus/bail outs that have happened.

[HN1708]

Thanks UAV689.

My brother is a senior manager in one of the bailed out banks (one with the biggest corporate loss in UK history) and was furious that i was compromising basic living needs to repay his own employers! I literally sold everything i owned that was worth anything on eBay to repay the banks and i only wish i'd seen sense sooner.

Its nice going to sleep at night now not having to worry about to make the next repayment or how i will put petrol in my old car. Amazingly i am now an expert on how far you can go on a fuel light in a car, and trust me its far!

The restrictions and bad credit for becoming bankrupt are well worth not having to repay money i can't afford.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

That is interesting.

When discussions in the past have focussed on planned bankruptcy there has always been a fairly large amount of comment upon the morals of the issue.

I have a hunch that post-crisis the moral dimension will wane. The bail outs and the excesses make a moral argument about banks 'difficult'.

This then raises wider concerns about society. Are the people captured by the Matrix peeking outside their cocoons?

Who knows.

When you are free of debt you suddenly get to see what debt really is and how easily banks live. That's a quote from me, today.


WWW

[Bealzebub]

Maybe I am, but you only tell your version of the truth. Here are some of the consequences:
■It will cost you money (up to £485) to go bankrupt
■ Whilst you are bankrupt, you can't apply for more credit
■ If you own your own home, it might have to be sold (but you may be able to apply to your local authority for re-housing)
■Some of your possessions might have to be sold, for example, you will usually lose your car and any luxury items you own
■Some professions don't let people who have been made bankrupt carry on working
■If you own a business, it is more than likely that the Official Receiver will close down your business, dismiss your employees and sell off the assets.
■ Going bankrupt can affect your immigration status
■ You cannot keep your bankruptcy private. A list of bankrupt people is published on the internet and your case could also be published in your local newspaper
■ Even when you are no longer bankrupt, you could have another order, called a bankruptcy restriction order made against you. These orders can be made, for example, where you did not co-operate with the Official Receiver, or you took on debts knowing that you had no hope of paying them back. They can last for 15 years, and will make your financial affairs very restricted.
■Even when you are no longer bankrupt, there are some debts such as court fines and student loans that will never be written off.
■There is a public stigma with bankruptcy. All people subject to bankruptcy in the UK have their name advertsied in two local newspaper and the London Gazette.
■Bankruptcy can effect your ability to run a business because you cannot trade under any other name.
■You can be publically examined in court.
■Your credit rating will be damaged for a long time, up to 6 years.
■Debts to the Student Loans Company will not be written off
■The trustee in bankruptcy may make you sell your expensive assets.
■Your professional status can be lost.
■Your job may be lost or your chances of promotion.
■You can not be a director of a limited company.

Just a few highlighted things to consider if you want a job as a professional pilot. These days you may need to set up in business to get a "contractors" job with some airlines. Not to mention signing a bond or credit agreement for a type rating. Perhaps thinking of applying overseas? Etc. It is a legal process not just a financial one, and there are legal considerations and consequences.

[UAV689]

I dont think I needed to be debt free to see that - but for the average joe public it can be scary how little they understand about loans/debt/interest etc.

For example my dear old dad is buying a brand new gas guzzling anti-vegetarian 4x4 this week.

He was suckered into taking out finance from the dealer (backed by a bank) for said the said tank. I went mad, told him to cancel their agreement and get a loan himself via a bank. When he said why I showed him that he would be repaying 8k more than he is paying for the car (in fact they were giving him an 8k discount, only to re-coup that on the loan arrangement!!)

I like the matrix analogy, in fact i love it. At the risk of thread creep it amazes me how many people I see at work that have their head so deep in the sand, grains of it are coming out the end. Some of these people are quite high up and it frightening that they are running the show.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well I've rarely seen a sorrier sack of shoes than that little list.


■It will cost you money (up to £485) to go bankrupt

Goodbye £80k of loan at 8% = total repayment around £150k.


■ Whilst you are bankrupt, you can't apply for more credit

No sh1t.

■ If you own your own home, it might have to be sold (but you may be able to apply to your local authority for re-housing)

Nope, don't have one.

■Some of your possessions might have to be sold, for example, you will usually lose your car and any luxury items you own

Well you can keep your car as long as its worth less than £1,500. Plus they can't take your fridge blah blah - you're 23 and don't own anything because you live with your parents. You own nothing they can sell.

■Some professions don't let people who have been made bankrupt carry on working

Not flying they don't. I think its Accountancy and Non-Exec Directorships and possibly being a judge or MP that's a problem. Anyone care? Thought not.

■If you own a business, it is more than likely that the Official Receiver will close down your business, dismiss your employees and sell off the assets.

I don't own a business. Like nearly all Wananbes.


■ Going bankrupt can affect your immigration status

I'm Welsh, not illegal.


■ You cannot keep your bankruptcy private. A list of bankrupt people is published on the internet and your case could also be published in your local newspaper


Oh no. The shame of it. Pass me the revolver and the bottle of whisky!

■ Even when you are no longer bankrupt, you could have another order, called a bankruptcy restriction order made against you. These orders can be made, for example, where you did not co-operate with the Official Receiver, or you took on debts knowing that you had no hope of paying them back. They can last for 15 years, and will make your financial affairs very restricted.

As these happen ini less than 0.2% of cases I'll take my chances. Its always used against serial fraudsters...


■Even when you are no longer bankrupt, there are some debts such as court fines and student loans that will never be written off.

Oh no! My £5k student loan on minimal interest rate still exists - whatever am I to do!?

■There is a public stigma with bankruptcy. All people subject to bankruptcy in the UK have their name advertsied in two local newspaper and the London Gazette.

I'll just have to kill myself then.

■Bankruptcy can effect your ability to run a business because you cannot trade under any other name.

Woe is me.

■You can be publically examined in court.

Apart from my massive penis causing gasps of amazement I have nothing to fear being examined in court.

■Your credit rating will be damaged for a long time, up to 6 years.

Christ - not my credit rating! I have no money. Am not earning any. Won't for a long time.


■Debts to the Student Loans Company will not be written off

Crikey - now I'm trembling.


■The trustee in bankruptcy may make you sell your expensive assets.

What? My iPhone?


■Your professional status can be lost.

Ummm - how? You're either a professional or you're not.


■Your job may be lost or your chances of promotion.

Yeah - I remember so well being asked an illegal question about my finances at interview.

■You can not be a director of a limited company.

Well that's my dreams on directing a limited company up in smoke then....





This is risible.


WWW

[HN1708]

Fortunately i have given up on becoming an MP or a member of a school board and you can actually run a business although can't be an MD for the period you are actually bankrupt (12 months). If you are bankrupt you are very unlikely to be able to obtain any credit never mind be allowed to!

When i phoned and wrote to the banks to tell them i was unable to make any further repayments they informed me that it would affect my ability to obtain further credit. I replied that as i was unable to afford or obtain any further credit then i had nothing to lose! They of course went on to warn me that i could lose my home (don't have one of those) or anything worth a lot of money (already eBayed into bank repayments) so there was no deterrent to stop paying them and certainly no incentive to keep doing so!

My response to being examined in court (already run this past a QC) is to pull out a brochure for a FTO with pictures of handsome men wearing gold bars and say it was implied i would be a flying a jet around making big bucks and it hasn't happened for me despite getting first time passes in minimum hours in all of my training!

Amazing that the government spend lots of time and money telling us not to drive too fast or smoke and drink and very little about borrowing money we can't afford to repay!

[piky]

"Once a bankruptcy is cleared, it is cleared and borrowing beyond that is unaffected"

TOTAL RUBBISH.....For those of you stupid enough to take the Wee mans advice beware, just google it (Bankruptcy) and take no notice WHATSOEVER of your well informed Moderator, otherwise it will end in tears for you! Nothing wrong with being honest and hard working.....Ultimately, it pays and you'll sleep at night.

WWW, you should be ashamed of yourself with your flipent remarks with reference to Bankruptcy. no doubt you will delete my post as you normally do! Not one for constructive criticism are we??

regards
Piky.

[Bealzebub]

It is risible to you WWW because you haven't done it. You promote an idea that is irresponsible albeit unavoidable for some people. You tell the world how clever and fortunate you are and how your advice is unfaltering in its accuracy. I appreciate it is something of an act, but that doesn't make it any more accurate or valid.

Some of these things will have a serious effect on people, because they are not all as shallow and dismissive as you either are, or pretend to be. It is all very well to play "Alan Greenspan" supported by nothing more than your moderator status, and tell the world how you weep at the graveside of friends who have been hounded by banks. It is all very well to promote a sense of revenge on irresponsible banks or ill advised borrowers. But you fail to take a step back from your own point of view, to see the real world consequences of what you promote.

It is risible to you, because you won't admit it is serious. To be honest I think few people are fooled by your advocacy or self promotion, but even if they are, I am not.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Bealzebub http://www.pprune.org/1380833-post31.html

5 years ago you were taking time out of your busy life to criticise me and I'm truly grateful that you continue to take your role so seriously.


I'm so glad that you're not fooled by my advocacy and self promotion.


Kindest Regards


WWW

[HN1708]

The banks lent recklessly and people borrowed irresponsibly now if someone wants to throw a brick through my window then me and Fred Goodwin are even!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Oh and Piky might be wondering why none of his posts appear here. Its because you've been forum banned love.

PM me with an apology and you'll be allowed to post openly again. You've written loads and most of it is good but nobody has seen it for months. Other than you. When you log in. Its all there. But only to you.

Cruel I know. But hence nobody replies to any of your comments....


WWW

[Bealzebub]

Well I suppose you can if you want, but I haven't violated any of the site rules, so people might wonder why?

I am happy for you to highlight that post from 5 years ago, because it is probably just as valid today as it was then. I am not sure what it has to do with bankruptcy though?

If you are going to ban people for disagreeing with you, doesn't it make a mockery of the forum and the subjects contained within it?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

OK - fair point.

WWW

[Bealzebub]

Hello....It is dark in here.....Oh wait the lights have come back on.

OK - fair point
Your connection with the flight training industry is what exactly?


Oh same as yours (only more so) ex-CFI, examiner, CAA approval holder for flying school. 29 year airline experience. Now have children involved in flight training and all the associated problems that brings them and me as a parent. Does that meet the qualification? Is there a qualification?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yes that meets the qualification.


You're heavily involved in the supply side of flying training to Wannabes. I thought so.

Your comments and attitude are thus weighted appropriately.

Took a while to smoke you out...


WWW

[Bealzebub]

Thank you. 5 years it would seem?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just for the record - kids live off Wannabe spending plus a bit of a history owning a flying school. Doesn't like me and what I write. Thinks I should be quiet.

Bless...






Hello....It is dark in here.....Oh wait the lights have come back on.

Quote:
OK - fair point
Your connection with the flight training industry is what exactly?

Oh same as yours (only more so) ex-CFI, examiner, CAA approval holder for flying school. 29 year airline experience. Now have children involved in flight training and all the associated problems that brings them and me as a parent. Does that meet the qualification? Is there a qualification?

[Bealzebub]

I may be misunderstanding, but that is not the record at all.

My kids don't live off wannabe spending. They are wannabes spending! They spend their own money and my money. My kids are what I supply to the wannabe industry, as customers!

I haven't been directly involved with that side of the industry for the last 29 years.

The only reason I don't like what you write in this respect, is because you have no experience of it, and as a parent I feel your advice is irresponsible. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but from a moderator it is a bit of a concern frankly.

I feel it is fair to therefore counter your assertions and opinions, free from the threat of being kicked out of the discussion simply for disagreeing with them, and failing to be put down by dismissive nonsense.

There you go again with your prejudicial presumptions, hopefully that corrects the record.

[Bruce Wayne]

I have a lovely letter here from a large fto basically trying to milk a bit more cash from the wannabe’s with a mixture out right cheek and lies. I’ll happily post it up...


This is Pprune, don't be getting all coy !

[HN1708]

Bealzebub, why are you scaremongering against people seeking the protection of bankruptcy and can you please provide a source for that list of 'consequences' for bankrupts in order to qualify it?

If you want to stop people getting into this position then why not tell them what a **** industry this is for a lot of hopefuls and how FTOs will lie through their teeth to get you to take on hefty debt!

The flight training industry takes advantage of people, the banks take advantage of people so why shouldn't people take advantage of them???

[UAV689]

Well said HN!

:D

[davedek]

On topic: Does anyone know if bankruptcy can effect somebody's ability to obtain an airside pass? Could be a very big consideration for a newly-qualified pilot who is close to bankruptcy.

(NB. Not asking this for me, I'm not planning to go bankrupt! :})

[no sponsor]

This document refers to the requirements:

http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com/docs/images/157/6/1/Disqualifying%20Offences%20List_CC-FC-RA.pdf

This is not to say things can and will not change in the future. The best course of action appears to be if you are an foreign national, as the checks somehow don't seem to be as thorough!

[jimmygill]

Thanks UAV689.

My brother is a senior manager in one of the bailed out banks (one with the biggest corporate loss in UK history) and was furious that i was compromising basic living needs to repay his own employers! I literally sold everything i owned that was worth anything on eBay to repay the banks and i only wish i'd seen sense sooner.

Its nice going to sleep at night now not having to worry about to make the next repayment or how i will put petrol in my old car. Amazingly i am now an expert on how far you can go on a fuel light in a car, and trust me its far!

The restrictions and bad credit for becoming bankrupt are well worth not having to repay money i can't afford.

Bankruptcy protection is your right. You have already paid for it when you paid taxes on the pilot training, and interests on the loans, and you have right to use all the resources you have. They have ejection seats just to be used, they don't fire you if you use ejection seat, and seems you did it pretty responsibly.

I wish you great luck in all your endeavours. :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Bankruptcy isn't an offence and thus has no bearing on the CRC check conducted when you apply for an airside pass.

WWW

[Bealzebub]

HN,

It never occured to me that I was "scaremongering", quite the opposite in fact. I thought you were supporting the moderators contention that bankruptcy was a happy, inconsequential tool to be employed in the pursuit of your pilots licence or anything else. If you want a source for that list of consequences I will find it again, but type bankruptcy and consequences into your search engine and you will find no end of returns listing them. Surely you already did this sometime ago if you are embarking on the process?

Bankruptcy is a legal process, rather like divorce is a legal process. Nobody sets out with the intention of having to embark on it, but many people find themselves in need of a process, that for them may be the lesser of two evils. I don't find any "stigma" attached to people who find themselves in difficulty and need to utilize either of these processes to remedy their personal situation. Further it is a situation that any of us could find ourselves in, given the wrong mix of circumstances. For some people it is a way to be able move forward when everything else has failed, and that is the point of its existence.

I could list the advantages of utilizing this process if a person finds themselves in this position, but you and others have already done that. What you haven't done is give a balanced view. Obviously you are involved in the process at an early stage and perhaps that weights your viewpoint, but that shouldn't prevent you and others from looking at the downsides of the process as well, without suggesting that being asked to, amounts to "scaremongering."

Bankruptcy is really one of the choices of last resort. It is a process that is embarked on when all others have failed. It is not something that anybody should be promoting as a planning tool for potential pilots (or anybody else,) or suggesting that others will have a commercial advantage if they utilize it and you don't. That is just nonsense.

On to your second point, I (and many others) regularly reply to questions, that the industry is on its knees. I regularly point out that research, maturity, common sense, planning, and a healthy does of scepticism are all attributes or methods that anybody embarking on this as a potential career should posses in spades. FTO's are in the business of selling you something you want to buy. Car dealers do the same, so do plastic surgeons. Do they lie? I am sure some probably do, but the advantage they have is that they are selling to customers who already have a deep desire for the product. The reality of ownership may turn out to be far removed from the dream in some or all of those cases, but that is not the sellers problem. Likewise with banks selling money to customers. They do so to satisfy the desires of those customers. It is a flimsy rationale to then suggest your greed or ineptitude is down to them. Rather like saying I stole something because the temptation was too much, or it shouldn't have been on display. I can lie, deceive and cheat, because I justify that others in my perception lie deceive and cheat. I am not in the wrong because I can delude and justify.

That is far removed from any suggestion that people who find themselves in difficulty fall into this category, but it does seem common for one or two in this thread (yourself included) to find the need to do it.

Bankruptcy isn't an offence, just as divorce isn't an offence. It is an end process that is used when everthing else has broken down. As well as being an end process, it should provide a starting point for re-building your life in either respect. It is however disingenuous to promote it as an inconsequential method of advancement. Anybody embarking on bankruptcy should do so only after taking independent and properly qualified advice. That is particularly so on a forum aimed at advising young people with an ambition.

What I say on any of these threads, is what I would (and do) say to my own children. To that end the advice is honest and the best that I can provide. It may not always (or often) be what people want to hear, but it is well intentioned and honest. It strikes me that some who should excercise a better degree of responsibilty and care, are too busy banning or belittling others, and busy promoting their own lives and agendas, to provide the balanced view that they often fail to actually provide.

Bless!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Would you have written all this, expounded so fully on the topic, if I hadn't provoked you.. nah.

I understand your point of view. However, Wannabes would be well informed if they realised that others in the same race are planning on using bankruptcy as a tactic to manage the funding of their career aspirations. It is highly effective and it is not uncommon.

I find it morally neutral. I understand that many do not.


WWW

[Flintstone]

Call me old fashioned but I'm a firm believer in standing by one's responsibilities and planning to use bankruptcy is, in my opinion, well outside the realms of the done thing. I'd take a pretty dim view of anyone who deliberately set out to do this.

HN. Take advantage of the banks? Do you honestly think that they swallow any losses? Who do you think bears the brunt?

[Bealzebub]

What provocation?

You threadbanned me yesterday for writing a reasonable reply. You told your audience that I was a flying school owner? All based on your prejudices. You then searched out a 5 year old post that you seem to believe supported your contention? You promote this idea. I have already stated that given the abject nonsenses of some of your statements it is quite likely that you do it for effect or attention and to that end it is probably something of an act, so I don't think I have been provoked into anything I haven't already said? Can you say the same?

After using your position (albeit briefly) to shut me up, you then made a strange posting about somebody else having to send you a written apology before they would be allowed back? I am guessing they didn't agree with you either?

Provocation and smoking me out? No I don't think so. Backpeddling, malfeasance and posturing in front of an audience, perhaps? You make too many prejudicial and wrong assumptions about your audience to be taken too seriously. I do not think wannabes are being well informed by the suggestion that bankruptcy is being used as a tactical advantage. You have already stated your loathing of banks and anybody else who doesn't conform to your ideals. This is becoming the "Fox News" forum of PPRuNe.

The morality of bankruptcy is only one aspect of it. The consequences may well go far beyond that one aspect. You frequently espouse to anyone who will read it, how well you have done for yourself and I cannot recall that involving bankruptcy on your part? Yet you "provoke" the idea that this is a useful tool in career advancement. I can understand the Devils advocate approach, but that is somewhat negated by your use of your privilege to dismiss and remove any counter to such suggestion. You know it as well?

Bankruptcy is not something that I would advise my children as in any way a benefit or positive career advancement. It is something to be avoided if at all possible. It will not be viewed as a positive attribute, unless in a historic context it is seen as something that was successfully overcome. It may well preclude their ability to access a vital tool for securing a future job. It may well preclude their ability to be considered for certain jobs in foreign countries. It may have consequences for themselves and their families that are not so obvious in the excitement of the prospect. In other words it may not be the easy answer to all their problems. Within this same forum there are people with a weak understanding of the consequences of secured debt, mortgages, guarantors, etc. There are catastrophic potential problems for anybody thinking that bankruptcy is simply an easy way out for people considering these options.

There are people on this very page that think that bankruptcy is a "right" that has something to do with the taxes they have paid? Or that it is a sensible justification for reckless spending brought on by their inability to apply sensible judgment? Responses from sensible, intelligent people should at the very least be sensible and intelligent. There may be a spectrum of opinion and comment, but it is very wrong to stifle that opinion and comment because it doesn't mesh with your opinions.

If you understand that as you say, why do you ban and threaten to ban people who do just that?

[HN1708]

Bealzebub,

What you have done is indeed scaremongering and i am sorry to say that you have in my opinion contributed nothing useful to this thread apart from worrying someone who is heavily in debt who has read your post. You have lifted information courtesy of a search engine and have not qualified the source. I find this worrying as you appear not to have a grip on qualifying information as fact or opinion as a pilot.

I would suggest you have actually lifted it from a website that sells debt solutions like IVAs and warns people off bankruptcy, as that is where insolvency practitioners make there massive profits from charging extortionate fees and these sites actually look like they are providing honest and free advice and even look like some government advice websites do. Trust me that i know as i have done a lot of research on this and i have a great deal of personal experience now on how that industry operates and i am very keen to make people aware that insolvency practitioners are not there to help you and are only out to line their own pockets which they do very well (check share prices for insolvency firms).

I was told to sign up for an IVA and lie about what i could afford to repay as it would then qualify me for bankruptcy. I signed up in the belief that i would never have to go ahead with the scheme and was then told to start making repayments despite being told it would never come to that. I challenged the company and threatened to report them to their professional body and they agreed to release me from the IVA. They stood to take over £5,000 from £11,000 of repayments towards an original debt of £47,000- not bad eh!

Having earned a living for a decade now from GA (explains why i am broke!) i am well aware of how the industry works and how FTOs sell the dream. Having actually worked in the flight training industry i have had to tell grown men who have taken 50h to solo not to sell their businesses in order to become airline pilots while i have had unpaid maintenance bills on my desk although i would liked to have taken their money just to pay the wages of the instructors for another month! FTOs tell people they are selling a solution to someone’s problem of wanting to become an airline pilot when in reality they are not actually capable of doing this so yet again you are very wrong in comparing them with ‘car dealers’ who can actually deliver a desired product!

I hope i don’t sound bitter as asides from my financial situation it has all worked out beautifully for me and i landed the flying job i dreamed of for years the day after i passed my IR, which will pay more than most airline jobs will in time and i also have the privelege of not having to work for an airline which is the opinion of many of my friends who fly for major operators!

So thanks for your time but please don’t offer an opinion on something you have no experience of. I am not advocating bankruptcy as a means to become a pilot free of charge, what i am saying is that if you can't afford to repay your flight training debts then don't let the stigma put you off becoming bankrupt, beware insolvency practitioners and people giving you misinformed advice about the consequences and above all don't get depressed and top yourself as its only money!!!

Best regards

[HN1708]

Flintstone, so if the banks won't take responsibility for reckless lending should people take responsibility for irresponsible borrowing?

[42psi]

Might I just point out one little point that appears to have been missed in the many interesting views posted...

It's been briefly mentioned about assests.... i.e. for most folks their home.

That can be a very critical point.... don't ignore it.

The bankruptcy route really does only work if you have no home, in particular.

Those lenders who have issued unsecured loans (credit cards/personal loans etc) usually charge a level of interest above that of a secured loan on the basis that they are exposed to greater risk.


However, if you actually have any assets (such a home, mortgaged or not) they will move very, very, very quickly to get to court the moment they detect any risk in you not repaying.


The sequence they use is to firstly get a court order for the debt, which will be automatic as you do owe them the money.

Courts being mostly reasonable places will not allow them to harass you for something you cannot pay so the court will look at your finances and make an order for you to pay only what you reasonably afford ... and you get to keep your assets.


The sting is in the next stage.....

Your creditor will then happily take this £1.00 per month (or whateveer the court decide) but trot back quickly to the court and as a matter of course obtain a charging order.

They will now have a charge over your home until the debt is repaid.

Joint ownership etc doesn't matter, nor does the current equity available.

They have now secured the loan and will happily sit back for many, many years knowing that eventually they will get their money back.

Actually, not quite accurate. What they will do is sell your debt on as they have now turned your unsecure debt into something of value - a secured debt.



Apparently there is an absolute boom industry in financial circles at the moment in just this sort of enterprise.



So for anyone thinking of bankruptcy it is of course crucial you have no assets.

For anyone who does have a home and thinks their unsecured loans are just that .. think again .. while you have a home any loan is easily secured.

Does rather make those high credit card interest rates even more of a "poor value" financial tool ...... for the borrower of course .. not the bank.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Bealzebub - I apologise for thread banning you for all of 45 seconds last night. I miss-read your posting and decided you were a flying school owner. The excellent bottle of Margaux (Lascombes, 2005 - epic) helped confuse me.

My reference to the five year old posting was merely an indulgence - I thought you weren't in my fan club and I was just looking back to confirm the fact.

I agree that planning to use bankruptcy is:

Illegal.
Fraud.
Serious.

And Cheating.


It does however work uniquely well for Wannabes who are often young, with no assets and large loans secured against a paper license of no value. It is being used in the way I suggest and it does mean that other Wannabes CAN afford to outspend you all the way to SSTR and the far side of £100k.

Making that widely known is a task for which I make no apology.

My commentary that I personally find it morally neutral is not needed but then it does draw people into a heated debate which generates a well argued debate. Thanks for your contribution.


WWW

[MVE]

Some very ointeresting points and points of view on here and of course a lively debate.

Nobody is disputing the fact that if you went into this bsiness with all the best intensions and now find yourself in a corner that bankruptcy is an option. The problem is promoting it as a career path, ie go get the loans, go get the license and then de-fraud everyone. That's the problem and that's the line I have a problem with. It comes down to integrity again, I don't want to share a flight deck with a liar, a thief and a cheat, because I don't want to have to worry about what I'm missing when they :mad: up and then keep it to themselves due to no integrity.

As to the point about wannabes getting an advantage because they can run off to Ryan and the likes and pay for Tr - it's a fair point but I say let them. If a self-funded TR was the only option (and at one time for me it appeared that way for 6 months) then keep waiting! The airlines will recruit again.

[UAV689]

This has become a very interesting thread,and has kept my interest more than the last epic upturn thread.

The last post about sitting next to a man that has lied to get funding raises an interesting point in my mind (or maybe it's the bottle of merlot) is what level of law breaking would you feel comfortable when sitting next to an FO.

Did you speed on the way to work? Did you try and buy cider when you were under 18 with a fake Id? All these are against the law.

The once old black and White moral standing is now more morally grey.

Banks have loaned iresponsibly for financial gains.
MPs have got into power for financial gains.
Idiots that are without a village go on big brother for financial gain.
FTOs promise you a first time job on the 744 with stewardess willing to do naughty things to you in return for finacial gain.
RYANAIR HIRE WANNABES FOR FINANCIAL GAIN.

It's nowadays a just part of the game.

Aplogies for any typos I am merlot'ed up and using an iPhone....

[HN1708]

UAV689, keep the Merlot flowing! :ok:

[Flintstone]

Flintstone, so if the banks won't take responsibility for reckless lending should people take responsibility for irresponsible borrowing?


Ahh, I see. So because one party behaves in an unsatisfactory manner that makes it ok for others to do so?

Of course people should take responsibiliy for their own actions. They take out a loan, they sign a contract, they should expect to abide by what they willingly get themselves into unless they reach a point, through no fault of their own, where they can no longer meet their obligations. Bankruptcy should be seen as a last option, not planneed for from the beginning.

I repeat my question. Who ultimately bears the brunt when borrowers can no longer meet their payments?

[HN1708]

I have never advocated intentional bankruptcy and never planned to do so and can assure it was a very difficult decision to make although i had no choice in the matter!

It is of course the tax payer who will be picking up the tab for my unpaid borrowings and that of the banking losses. It doesn't make it right but why should one party suffer when the other half have been bailed out?

[Adios]

I find this quote about planned bankruptcy from WWW interesting:

"It does however work uniquely well for Wannabes who are often young, with no assets and large loans secured against a paper license of no value. It is being used in the way I suggest and it does mean that other Wannabes CAN afford to outspend you all the way to SSTR and the far side of £100k."

It seems to me incongruent with his advice elsewhere to young wannabes to go modular because it's just as good or even better and costs much less. I think as short as a year ago, he generally would tell the youngsters to wait a few years and save some cash instead of borrowing. He'd tell them that modular is better, but now suddenly he sees a way to get a good deal on integrated training (must be integrated if it takes you to the far side of £100k) using other people's money with an illegal and fraudulent intention (never mind the moral issues, it's just fiat money). By the way, since it's worthless fiat money, please send me all of yours WWW and quit whinging about FTOs scheming to take it away from wannabes since it's not real.

Now the Robin Hood of Wales seems to promote, no forgive me, inform young wannabees about a competitive tool others will use to beat them to the top of the integrated training and sstr cv pile if they don't get with the program and at the very least consider using this illegal and fraudulent technique.

Personally, I think it's a bit of self indulgent grandstanding because I just don't think banks were or are making £80-100K unsecured loans to young asset-less Wannabes unless they had a parental guarantee and mum and dad's house as security. Maybe I am missing something, but wouldn't mum and dad still have to honour their contractual obligations to the bank even if junior decides, scratch that, intentionally plans from the outset, to take the WWW exit plan to financial bliss?

So....while the thread is humorous and entertaining, I think it is relatively useless as a financial planning tool for starry eyed wannabes who've been taken in by glossy FTO brochures and slick WWW financing scheme arguments. It makes me wonder if he has hedged all of his worthless fiat money and his gold bullion buying WDSs and WDOs from AIG and reselling their derivatives to the banks (Wannabe Default Swaps and Wannabe Default Obligations)!

For those calling for Danny to reign him in, forget about it. Look at the page view stats on the threads he moderates and imagine what they do for Pprune's ad rates! :ooh: Pprune towers must be awash in fiat money what with the FTOs having pried so much of it out of the hands of naive wannabes at exhorbitant profit margins especially after seeing that a Pprune banner ad will bring another wave of them next month with page views like these.

The irony, if not the pure entertainment value of it all makes me LMAO!

[MVE]

Nobody is saying you should suffer and you have been backed into that corner and have taken the only option left. A great deal different to planning it from the beginning.

Comes back to my first post on this thread - Integrity. You obviously have some, those that plan for bankruptcy from the beginning or encourage it or use it as a career plan haven't.

[Flintstone]

HN.

Nowhere did I say you had planned to go bankrupt, re-read my posts.

You're right to a certain extent, taxpayers pick up the bill for defaulters but before it gets that far it's the customers, the likes of me and others, who pay for it in charges and interest and all those little deductions that appear on our bank statements every month. Saying it's ok because the banks are doing wrong doesn't make the actions of those who deliberately........(note that part, deliberately)........ use bankruptcy as a tool right.

[HN1708]

Flintstone, i never said you did; i am just reiterating my reasons and opinion.

The taxpayer and consumer are almost one in the same- fuel duty, VAT etc. I could no longer justify going hungry and having no quality of life when the banks got bailed out and these are my individual reasons. I just feel this is a case of double standards.

I am just trying to offer my personal experience of this so far in order to help others like warning about insolvency practitioners. The other thing i would add is that a fundamental thing you should beware of to avoid getting in my situation is NEVER to repay a debt with another borrowing EVER, as this is how things snowball and you end up in a corner and this is how the banks let things get out of control with perpetual credit!

[Bealzebub]

HN, It isn't really for you to tell me or anybody else who should opine and who shouldn't. You have just embarked on the process yourself according to your own account. It would be very interesting for you to come back in a year or two and tell people what your honest and real world experiences of this were.

Nobody should be driven to the edge of despair by their inability to service debts, particularly where cicumstances contrived to place them in that situation through no particular fault of their own. The process exists to ensure that doesn't happen. Nevertheless it is not the "Scot free" solution that some might suggest.

Airlines look for people who can make sensible judgments and show a mature attitude. They like to see examples of teamwork and leadership and self responsibility in the candidates they select for interview, and during the interview process itself. Bankruptcy is not regarded as a badge of success, even though it is clearly understood that for some people it has proved to be unavoidable. I have to say that I find your reasoning and justification for bankruptcy exceedingly poor and immature and seemingly without much evidence of self responsibility. I do take part in airline recuitment interviews and any hint of those qualities would result in a polite completion, followed by a "No" after the door had closed behind you.

Obviously I do not know you, or your circumstances beyond what you have stated here, or what your aspirations, ambitions or achievements actually are, therefore it is academic. However recruitment interviewers are, will and always have looked for solid evidence of the qualities I have described, and where evidence of previous failures or weakness exists, they would want to see how that adversity was overcome by the application of those positive character attributes. In other words, bankruptcy wouldn't in itself be an absolute hinderence, but this sort of attitude would:
i also have the privelege of not having to work for an airline
So far it has been the best decision i have ever made and although i am currently being pursued by the banks it has been remarkably easy to fob off the debt collectors while i am waiting to become self-employed in my flying job in order to reduce the amount that can be taken from me in bankruptcy.
It is of course the tax payer who will be picking up the tab for my unpaid borrowings and that of the banking losses. It doesn't make it right but why should one party suffer when the other half have been bailed out?

It's nowadays a just part of the game.
The taxpayer and consumer are almost one in the same- fuel duty, VAT etc. I could no longer justify going hungry and having no quality of life when the banks got bailed out and these are my individual reasons. I just feel this is a case of double standards.
so if the banks won't take responsibility for reckless lending should people take responsibility for irresponsible borrowing?

I am grateful we have a legal remedy for people like yourself who have failed to manage their finances adequately for whatever reason, and I am also pleased that it provides a platform to take stock of a better future. However it seems to me that you would be rather more humble and grateful that you can avail yourself of such a process, without highlighting your repeated justifications for why it wasn't your fault but somebody elses, and why you think a perception of somebody elses weak behaviour is sufficient justification for your own. I think it is fairly self evident from your comments that you take little responsibility if you feel you can offload it to somebody else, but for perhaps a few others it would be a point to bear in mind for the future.

Still, as I said at the start it would be interesting to read your honest experiences once you emerge from the other side of this process, both good and bad.

[EZYramper]

Personally, I think it's a bit of self indulgent grandstanding because I just don't think banks were or are making £80-100K unsecured loans to young asset-less Wannabes unless they had a parental guarantee and mum and dad's house as security. Maybe I am missing something, but wouldn't mum and dad still have to honour their contractual obligations to the bank even if junior decides, scratch that, intentionally plans from the outset, to take the WWW exit plan to financial bliss?

Up until about 8 months ago HSBC were offering unsecured loans of £75,000 to cadets who had secured a place on the CTC Wings Cadet scheme.

[MVE]

and they offered to CTC and Oxford cadets for the simple reason that they were a good financial risk given the current market conditions at the time and the ability of these companies to place successful cadets with airlines. That is no longer the situation and the banks adjusted their lending accordingly.

Beazlebub, an excellent post but sadly I think it will fly right over the heads of most......but let's hope not!

[HN1708]

Bealzebub,

I never said you should not have an opinion, i stated that i felt you have not contributed anything worthwhile.

It is of course not a 'scot free' solution to a problem and i don't think anyone needs reminded of this as you have already listed the consequences for us without qualifying the information you have provided. Others have made worthwhile contributions about how my situation is different to that of others with assets or equity.

Fortunately for me i don't need to impress someone like yourself as to whether my motives and handling of the situation were to your satisfaction.

First quote- this is the opinion of many of my peers who are employed in the industry and is verbatim, not my words!

Fourth quote- not made by me and you are insinuating it was by including it amongst other things i did say!

I fully accept full responsibility that i made a big mistake by using further credit to meet my already stretched financial commitments and this is why i am warning other people of why it happened to me. I stopped making my usual, full and on time payments 18 months ago so i am already quite far down the line in this process and i am illustrating for others that it is a long and drawn out process but it goes to show that nothing has happened to me by not making payments for 18 months which may help alleviate the stress for someone else reading this in the knowledge that they probably don't need to worry about having the door kicked in 48h after they decide they can't afford to make a repayment. I will be made bankrupt within the next month and apart from being able to commentate on the formal proceedings i already suffer the consequences of not being able to obtain any more credit.

So if my reasoning and judgement regarding my course of action is poor and lacks self responsibility would you please tell me how i should have played it???

You are again scaremongering by implying that by having been made bankrupt it will be held against you if someone like yourself is sitting on the other side of a desk during an interview unless you can impress someone like yourself that you did it to to their satisfaction- autocratic tendencies???

I put it to you that you take offence to the fact i have picked you up on a lot of what you have said and this is something interviewers would hold against someone who wanted to be part of a team piloting an aircraft!

[stasis]

I've been reading this thread with interest as I find myself in exactly the situation described by WWW.

I have c. £80,000 debt, unsecured, from flight training.
I have no significant assets.
The bank are being reasonable and have deferred loan repayments for a year so far, but that doesn't alter the fact that the debt is essentially impossible to repay.

I've done a fair bit of research, and will be getting professional advice, but if anyone can answer a couple of aviation-specific questions regarding bankruptcy I'd be grateful.

- Can I be asked if I am / have been bankrupt in an interview?

- Could it affect my ability to get a flying job as a contract pilot?

- Can it affect my ability to work in the US in the future? I have heard that it may, and that it might be a problem if one day I ended up possibly operating into the US.

- Are there any other aviation-related consequences that a standard debt adviser wouldn't be aware of?

Cheers for any help...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I think they can ask you at interview though it would be a little unusual for them to do so. I imagine it would be fairly easy to turn it into a positive point about managing difficult circumstances/handling problems etc.

It has no impact on your ability to hold a license or airside pass.

I don't know about the US but once a bnakruptcy has been discharged by a court then its all over in all other jurisdictions. As evidenced here:

Britain Is 'Bankruptcy Tourism' Hotspot (http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/090925/140/ir6qv.html)


Basically people with massive debts come from the EU to live in Britain, go bankrupt here, bankruptcy lasts just 2 years (thanks, New Labour) instead of 7 years in lots of other countries. Then return home with their debts washed away and start all over again. As long as British court has ruled under British law then the debts are gone and you're free to return home debt free.

I suspect there will be a great many people who owe similar amounts who will not find adequate employment despite being in various pools in the coming winters. I imagine Bankruptcy Judges will be banging their gavels almost as fast as HSBC were writing out the loans...


WWW

[Dane-Ger]

Would bankruptcy not effect those who would like to start their own company, for example on a Ryanair brookfield contract?

[stasis]

Thanks - from what I've found out so far, you can't be a company director (e.g. for contracting as a ltd. co.) while you're bankrupt, but you can once you're discharged. As standard, assuming you haven't been fraudulent you're discharged after 12 months, and can apply for early discharge which would shorten this.

Lots of info here: Publications and Guidance Material Issued by The Insolvency Service (http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/guidanceleaflets/guides.htm)

When I find out more I'll post it here.

[Adios]

EZYRamper,

You are correct that the student did not have to secure the loan if he got a place on CTC Wings, but I suspect CTC or the partner airline might have been on the hook for the bond or a portion of it in some way (HSBC pulled out and BBVA do secured loans only for CTC now). CTC's explanation of the financial side of Wings is so cryptic and convoluted that one can't really tell what the full financial picture is for Wings. Hopefully it is clearer to those who get on it.

[Ollie23]

CTC's explanation of the financial side of Wings is so cryptic and convoluted that one can't really tell what the full financial picture is for Wings.

Very true.

Hopefully it is clearer to those who get on it.

Afraid not.

[Easy226]

Interesting read all of this and think that it was only a matter of time that this topic would come up on here. The thing is HSBC WILL be very flexible with loan repayments and enable deferrals. At the end of the day, they know the score if they start pestering for payments - thats just more evidence for a customer to show to the judge when filing bankruptcy!

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

As a current airline pilot and a discharged bankrupt I can probably contribute quite a bit here. Here is my story. Prior to jumping in boots and all with my training about five years ago I worked out a financial plan. I figured that by using about £10,000 of my personal saving and an intricate series of 0% APR balance transfers on credit cards I could pay for my training and pay the loan back too. This was based on spending time working as an instructor and finding a reasonable 25k(ish) turboprop job within a couple of years of finishing training. If this did not work out then I knew that with unsecured debt, bankruptcy would be a severe but sensible way out of decades of debt misery. Having that fall back plan was a good move with retrospect.

Just about anything that could go wrong did go wrong and I didn't budget for the dreaded SSTR that was not around when I started training. By January 2007 I found myself unemployed, with 50k of unsecured credit card debt and due to my worsening situation my lines of credit had dried up and the walls were closing in on me. Going bankrupt was my only real option as within a few months my cashflow situation would have made things impossible.

I filled in various forms and submitted them to the insolvency service. Then I booked a date with the local court to declare myself bankrupt a few weeks later. Going bankrupt entailed several hundred pounds of court fees which I obtained by one last cash advance “loan” from the credit cards. This was my first time in court and it was scary. The forms were examined in a side office and the payment was taken. I waited to be called in to see the judge which was terrifying. The court itself was quite large and it was just me and her. She asked me to confirm my circumstances and if I understood what I was doing and then declared me bankrupt.

A few days later the Official Receiver (OR), called to discuss my case. I was examined in great detail over an hour long phone call to determine if I had been “reckless” in my financial undertakings. The OR determined that my intentions had been honorable and I would not be given a Bankruptcy Discharge Order which could have extended my period of bankruptcy. I was told that I could keep my £1500 car as I needed it to find employment. It's often said that you can't get a bank account after bankruptcy; nonsense! I opened up a basic account with the Nat West prior to going bust and this came with a cash card but no overdraft. The OR kept this account open in order to have my Job Seekers paid in. My creditors were informed by the OR and very few called me. They have no legal right to collect the debt themselves as this is the job of the OR.

The real problem was obtaining work and the implications. If, within the one year period of bankruptcy you obtain a job then you will have an Income Payment Order (IPO) attached to you for three years. Get that nice 50k jet job and 75% of your disposable income can be given to your creditors. Obviously this is a BIG issue that has not been mentioned here already. I got around it by finding a job abroad for most of 2007. This avoids the dreaded IPO and I wasn't earning big anyway.

By 2008, I obtained an airline job. There were no questions at the interview about this and my employer does not know and would not give a damn anyway. I've held five airport passes over the years and the bankruptcy has not been an issue here. By early 2008 my bankruptcy had been discharged, but there are still major implications. It is still hard to get mainstream credit. The record of the bankruptcy remains for five years after bankruptcy. Until then getting a mortgage will be difficult though it is possible after a few years. Obtaining a credit card is tricky too. Try hiring a car or going on holiday abroad without one. I did get one earlier this year with a 50% APR so of course I pay it all off every time and my credit rating has improved to the point where I can obtain a normal credit card again. Company credit cards by the way are no problem, even if you are bankrupt as it is the company that is responsible for paying them.

Bankruptcy was a good option for me but it is not a game and needs to be taken seriously. However, if you are 80k in debt with no sensible income and have unsecured loans it is the way to go.

[v6g]

Going bankrupt entailed several hundred pounds of court fees which I obtained by one last cash advance “loan” from the credit cards.

Nice touch!

[piky]

Fair weather.... So, can you afford to pay your creditors now? If so..then do it:ok: Honourable or what.:E

PS: Still think www is a ****:E

Ye, wee man, know I'm barred and know that know one will see this, however,,,you won't see me in EM car park either:cool: YOU ****.

[Charlie Mopic]

Fair Weather Flyer. Great post and thank you. I though I was the only one.....

[mukoba737]

Weather flyer,

this is a great story and I hope that you will succeed in your future ways and as we all no despite having plans, things can go wrong.

I had the case that i had the employment contract in my hand, passed the assessment and at the end, once the financial crisis hit, got laid off. there I was with my debts which did include my family...

I had the chance to find a few friends who gave me a loan...the airline would not stand straight as there is a mentioning in the contract about bankrupcy.

But anyway, I got some friend which could lend me a bit of cash for me to go look for some time in the air so that I could repay the loan of my family. At that time my father could not pay back the loan he had taken for me and the bank was about to take the house from him.

All because of me. I did not feel to well in those times. And I had learned as WF did, that in life situations happen, where everything that can go wrong simply does.

I am still in the application process and have been spending 1 year simply looking around and applying. I bet some here have tried longer. But I found my luck with a company that offers employment with and without type rating ...but with a intensive selection. Well, most people think, oh, you declaire that you do not have money and start searching for money. guys, as WF said, there are things you need when you want to find a job in this industry. At least you will need that little bit of cash which will take you there and give you the option to find out what your chances are.

Today pilots are nothing special for banks anymore. Unless you are with a tinny bank...you will experience that saying you are a pilot makes you a risk. I remeber when i tried to get the loan without any security...guys in the environment today...despite having no big issues financially...they did not take the risk. So my advise, bankrupt means a new beginning. Be more clever, think in worrst case szenarios and calculate your risk as you will need all your options when the case comes.

p.s. I had a interview as well, where they asked me how my financial standing is. It was somehow related to how do i plan and how do I manage my life.
Was strange but understandable...i mean, i did not have to answer if I did not want to.

good luck to everyone.

m737