Have I done something wrong?

[B747ERNG]

G'day everyone,


I'm at my late 20's. I have 230TT CPL, NVFR, initial Twin, some C210 time. I got my CPL six months ago but still couldn't find a job.

In April I drove 8,000km covering most places between Darwin and Exmouth, WA. I visited as much operators as I could along the way, and I met many great pilots. Some operators were very impressed when I visited them, they told me not many new pilots visiting them these days. I dressed professionally, business shirt ironed and shoes polished. Unfortunately, after one month of long drive, I wasn't offered any job. Most operators told me that there were no jobs available at that moment due to very limited movement in the industry. The only place that was offering a job was a operator in Jabiru, but they required 400TT min for insurance purpose.

So I went home to save some money and did some time in C210 while I kept updating my resume with those operators I visited. Only one operator ever replied but he told me that their scenic flight business wasn't doing well this year and told me to try again next year.

Then I applied to most cattle companies I could find on yellowpages. About half of them replied but still no job available. I also applied the St Kidman & Co who recently advertised an AFAP but was quickly told they received too many highly qualified applications.

When I was doing my north trip I met a pilot who told me that WA government would be looking for fire spotting pilots for the coming fire season. So I did my tail-dragger endorsement, built 25 hours on tail-dragger and also did some basic aerobatics. I applied for the WA fire spotting job the first day they advertised on AFAP, but unfortunately yesterday I received a letter from them saying they received many highly qualified applications, the competition level is the highest they've even seen, so they can't offer me the job.

I wasn't feeling sad at all when I received the letter because I have been turned down so many times in the past six months. But I must admit that I'm starting to get confused now. I did a lot of research on PPrune and I took everyone's advise. I did the north trip and visited most places. But after six months of frustrated job searching, I still couldn't find any employment.

I really have no idea what I should do next to get the 1st flying job. I don't want to give up now, but I'm really lost. Have I done something wrong or was I looking at the wrong places? Could more experienced members shed some lights on me? I'll sincerely appreciate any comments or suggestions.

cheers:)

[clear to land]

Mate, there has been a lot of stuff written about this already. In my opinion (and yes like a#@holes everyone has one) your initial trip was a good move. Where I believe you went wrong is that you didn't identify a place that may have had good potential, and then stay there, working in a non aviation job and making regular visits to the operators there. Get yourself known and show you are committed. In years gone by it was not abnormal to have guys in Kunnunurra for example, waiting up to 2 seasons before getting a start. Patience is one of the essential elements of being a newby, and places like KU have lots of non flying employment avail (to be honest you can prob make better money than you will when you finally get the flying job)!

[morno]

G'day B747,
No, sounds like you did all the right things, it's just a bad time for the industry at the moment.

While thankfully, not a lot of people have lost their jobs because of the big GFC, a lot in the airlines were placed on leave whether they liked it or not, flying has been down for nearly all commercial operators, and no one is hiring. So the result is no one is moving either!

I'd just keep plugging mate. Keep onto some of those operators and tell them you're still around. When something does come up, you might be the first name that pops into their head.

If you're not doing much where you are right now, then maybe move up north and just work in the local servo or something to pay the bills etc. You started out well by going up there, but you need to STAY up there as well.

Hopefully something will come up soon for you. I would go as far as saying in another 6 months or so, I wouldn't mind betting the industry will be starting to move again. Slowly, but it'll be a move at least.

Cheers

morno

[The Green Goblin]

Don't give up mate.

I suggest heading to an area and digging in ASAP. You will find there will be a little bit of movement shortly with the coming wet as guys will be leaving for MECIRs, ATPLs etc and work starts picking up in the charter side of things.

PM me for a some tips if you like and a heads up :)

[tmpffisch]

Sounds like you gave it a good crack, but from what I've heard about the job market up north, you need to find a location such as Broome, Kunu's etc and setup base, find whatever job you can to make ends meet and sit it out until a job opens up. Visiting operators like you did is great, but to some degree it only gives you a chance if there is a job open that day (or perhaps a short while afterwards until the next candidate pops on in......right place, right time).

Definatly take Goblin up on the offer of the PM, he's posted some AWESOME info and tips and when it comes to when I'll be moving up there, I'll be dropping him a PM in hope he'll extend the offer to me too.

[goldypilot]

mate ur the man. i think u just did it in a ****ty time and therefor unlucky. ull get one soonmate

[Lineboy4life]

Ha - I went door knocking as far as PNG :bored: in 98 during a recession :( and it worked out just fine - I got a job up there in 07. :}

Aviators are like any other addicts - broke and looking for the next fix!!!! :{

Don't give up & in the mean-time put that tail-dragger rating to use and go do a little towing at your local gliding club, maybe even a bit of meat-bombing to keep a hand in.

A search on this forum will give you an Indonesian based C-208 operator that will look at guys with your time as co-jo's.

good luck :ok:

[Mr. Hat]

747, keep doing what your doing and you will get a job.

Sometimes people are in the right place at the right time and sometimes the opposite. I've experienced both.

With the pastoral companies thing - not all of the would be in the Y pages - the vast majority would not. Buy country life/outback magazine and go to the jobs section (use your imagination...ring around and ask "who has planes"...ring the DPI).

Keep working on your contacts and the places you've already been. It will work.

(i wouldn't spend any more money on flying hours BTW)

[White and Fluffy]

For once CASA is actually of some use.

Search the aircraft register for people that may have aircraft you are able to or endorsed to fly.

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Search CASA's aircraft register (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:PWA:1066427668:pc=PC_90127)

You can also look up AOC's that may be in locations you want to target or that may fly aircraft you are able to or endorsed to fly.

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Air Operator Search (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:1066427668:pc=PC_90359)

[Rhino 1]

White and Fluffy,

Excellent info on the CASA website!:ok: I've searched the site for days and you sent me in the right direction for endorsement/training in seconds.

Keep it up 747, you'll get there.

Cheers, Rhino:}

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

I'd only reiterate what everyone else said about **** times and getting a non-aviation job in Kunnas, Broome etc.

Lots of PPRuNe too. I've never gotten a job from here but I can see how you can use it to keep your finger on the pulse.

Best of luck, 747 and all the others like him,

FRQ CB

[Continue Approach]

Remember Steven Bradbury? Well he proved it, preparation is the mother of all success. And another from my economics professor: Achievement is 10% ability and 90% stickability!


CA

[RR RB211]

747, respect to you for getting out there and giving it a red hot go. :ok:

As has been said many times already- so I'll say it again for effect - it is a tough time at the moment and it will most likely be a situation of right place, right time.

The advice to set up camp in a town and stick it out in a non aviation job is good. You'll meet pilots who know someone who know's someone who is leaving soon etc. This is a major advantage of staying in a town and developing a network. You'll be a known quantity and it's always easier to employ someone you know a bit more about than the pilot who showed up that morning (no guarantees though).

Darwin accommodation is expensive so consider that, maybe Kunners is more reasonable? - Don't know sorry. Have heard Broome is exy too BUT if you want it bad enough - you'll make it happen (ala, volksi combi in the caravan park - what is the volksi combi of the year 2009??).

Anyway - it'll go like this as you're discovering:
no no no no no, no sorry mate, no no no no no no no no no x whatever then YES.

Stick it out, you're doing all the right things it seems, timing is everything, and yes - Green Goblins posts are book worthy for those heading out for that first job. :D

Stick at it - it'll happen. :)

So worth it most of the time too.

[TAU MATAMATA]

If you have a command Multi Instrument Rating try Airlines PNG in Port Moresby.

[havick]

in times like these all you can do is sh*t in you hands and clap..

You'll get a gig sooner or later if you keep sticking it out.

[The Green Goblin]

Everything in life is a numbers game.

If you go to a pub and ask a bird for a r**t chances are she will slap you. If you ask another she'll probably slap you too. Ask enough over a period of a night and you might get one that sees the funny side (feeling sorry for your bruised face) and chances are you may get lucky or really need to lower the bar "CLEARPROP"

So play the numbers because as a proffessional pilot, the numbers will be chasing you for the rest of your career as per Ernest Ganns theories in his bible.

[the air up there]

Sounds like you did everything right, bar one. You went home.

There is a positive, when you turn around and drive back up you will get to re-visit all the operators that you visited the first time. Then do as others are saying and pick somewhere, set up camp and stay there. Keep in contact with all operators, but concentrate on the ones that are in and around the town your living in.

Get to know the pilots at the airport. Be friendly and say G'day when you see them. They might have a mate thats leaving the company up the road in 3 or weeks. And find out where they drink, 'bump' into them on a Friday night there just as your leaving, if they ask you to stay your in so long as you dont make a c%*k of yourself. Then your in their network.

As the other posts have said, there isn't much going at the moment so I can't say go here, ask for Joe, I was told your looking, because I've heard of less than 20 newbies getting jobs in the territory this dry (although there was certainly more) so there wasn't may jobs around. I cant agree that this will change in 6 months, I think more like 12. But you do have to be there, not one operator I know of will hire over the phone to a newbie sitting at home down south.

And one final thing, grab a mate for the road trip and treat it like a holiday. He doesn't have to be a pilot either. I did it and the adventures were awesome. I actually might even do a repeat just for the adventures. Good times.

Sounds like you want it. DO NOT GIVE UP. It's a war of attrition for jobs amongst newbies right now.


And another thing, grab a mate for the drive

[heres trouble]

Full respect 747 for the balls factor..

All above posts have covered it well enough..Just stick with it, and it will eventually turn for the better....If any operator gets wind of just how committed you are they'd be crazy not to hire you..

We'd have to be pretty close to the worst part of the "cycle" right now, so that can only mean that within the next year or so things will turn again(there are small positive signs already in the economy itself), and all the "overqualified" pilots will start to get recalls into the jobs that suit they'e quals leaving a hole for the newbies to step into.

From the sounds of your attitude you'll be first in line .

Good luck..:ok:

[18-Wheeler]

In 20+ years of aviation I only ever got one job through an interview, the rest was by word-of-mouth from people that knew me.
Mate you need to develop the Old Boy Network, that'll get results. Less effort in trying to impress people with bits of paper.

[PA39]

Yes. Stick at it.....find an organisation where you think you may slot in and make an absolute bloody pest of yourself. The majority of fellas who i employed did jut that. They always called in or phoned me....constantly, UNTIL this silly old f**t weakened. It didn't worry me if they could fly or not because if they couldn't then i would teach them how, to fly and stay alive. They would push their log books in front of me ,but i would always push it back, if i did look through it it was only to see if there were any aircraft which i had flown. The log book told me nothing of the guys ability/personality. I was more concerned on their people handling skills, common sense and ATTITUDE. The guys who were consistent and determined nearly always got a start with me. Keep at it mate and good luck.

[Mr. Hat]

747, hiring isn't far off and this will create a position for you and others. Just have a look at the recent increase in adverts on the afap job site.

Airlines have contracted yes during this difficult time. The question now is which one is going to put their balls on the line first and get the pick of the experienced jet and t-prop guys that are in the holding pattern.

Its just around the corner.

[The Green Goblin]

Thats assuming the GFC is not a 'W' shaped recovery.

We may be in for some more pain yet :confused:

I'm an optimist however!

[FL170]

Mr Hat is right 747, in the last month or two AFAP has been looking much healthier than months in the past. Most (not all) of the adverts I have noticed are for the guys with more experience however this surely will have its effect lower down in the sector.

Just a matter of time! Stay positive mate and all the best.

[AutopilotEngage]

Hey guys,

With the industry the way it is, what chances would you give a NZ pilot looking to relocate anywhere west of the Tasman with circa 330 TT, MECIR, BGT, C-cat instructors rating (Grade 3), University degree (in aviation) and heaps of motivation?

Any replies appreciated.

[The Green Goblin]

Hey guys,

With the industry the way it is, what chances would you give a NZ pilot looking to relocate anywhere west of the Tasman with circa 330 TT, MECIR, BGT, C-cat instructors rating (Grade 3), University degree (in aviation) and heaps of motivation?

Any replies appreciated.

You've got more chance of catching swine flu from a sheep :E

We'll do you a trade - we'll take you if we can send a few of our boys over there for government funded training :)

All in seriousness though you have just as much chance as anyone. Convert your licence move to the Hilton at Kunus (AKA the backpackers hostel) behave yourself and hopefully (fingers crossed) you will get that lucky break.

[AutopilotEngage]

You've got more chance of catching swine flu from a sheep http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


Check :ok:

[Mr. Hat]

I think you'd be looking pretty good as long as the 330 hours comes with good presentation and a keen attitude.

[Towering Q]

I was more concerned on their people handling skills, common sense and ATTITUDE.

Spot on.:ok:

Try to put yourself in an employers shoes. The above attributes rate very highly. An employer only has a very small window of opportunity to establish whether or not you have these qualities. So make every personal contact count.

That is why networking and building solid friendships is so important. There will come a time when your future progression may be in the hands of a mate. He or she will be promoting you to their boss for an upcoming position. Never underestimate the power of "word of mouth". It's also a handy method for keeping d!ckheads out of the industry, but unfortunately it doesn't always work.:{

[TAU MATAMATA]

Try the MLO

[the air up there]

Towering Q, very well said. On all points. Anyone can fly really, but not all have commitment.

But please don't get me started on the dickheads in the industry with poor attitudes. That needs a whole new thread. Lol.

[TAU MATAMATA]

B747ERNG,

Try [email protected] with covering letter and CV

[TAU MATAMATA]

B747ERNG

Mention Pprune to MLO

[ZK-NSN]

You've got more chance of catching swine flu from a sheep
Better get you tamiflu.

A good mate of mine couldnt find any work here in NZ with a new CPL and C-cat so went to aussie to have a look. landed a flying job within 2 weeks. He just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
Im not trying to rub anyones nose in it. Most of the time it comes down to timing and luck. Stick at it.
The good c#nts always get through, sooner or later.

[erkal]

Well done B747. You're on a journey and you've made a good start even though it may not seem that way right now. The most important is to hang in there and Attitude - PA39s advice is golden and old(er) guys like us know it to be true. :ok:

[DeltaSix]

hey there, don't just stick to what you have heard. If instructing to build up time isn't for you then think outside the box and go where the job is. But where is that job you ask ?..... ever thought of our neighbours in SEA? that's where i got my first twin job flying a baron then got into turbo-props after 6 mths ( TwOtter then Dornier ) while part-timing as a ground instructor. Only thing is, be prepared to fly like these guys in Air America. I wont even go thru the details of this nightmare. There are places sometimes that you cannot apply what you have learned and sometimes they break safety rules... but not me, I stuck with my guns and lived to fly another day. But don't whinge if it gets tough on finances sometimes and all you eat are noodles for days on end. But I loved the place.

Also, there was an ad a couple of mths ago by an Aussie chief flight instructor looking for instructors in Indo. don't know if he ever got one from Oz as i noticed it in AFAP.

Another place is Africa. Not the best place but they need pilots ( to fly diamonds and guns :}) . I even know of a guy who only has 300 hrs and got into a DC3 right seat flying VFR from Pemba in Mozambique to anywhere where you "shoo" away goats, geese, dogs and people riding bicycles on the runway with your prop blast. I think he ran over a few chickens on a dirt strip once. :}..... or crabs gotten loose on the cargo bay and starting biting his fingers while flying. :}

bottomline is --you have to leave Oz if you think the demand has dried up and it looks like that. Another grade 3 instructor (800 hrs) got into a job flying right seat in a Caribou and ferried the thing with another guy half-way across the world. Now, he is in Cathay flying Cat 3C approaches.

I hope you get the picture... good luck bud. The world is so big for you to say that you can't find a flying job. There are also jobs in Fiji i know flying BN Islanders. all they need is for you to have the endorsement. only thing is, the night life sucks !!!

[Bla Bla Bla]

Delta Six,

Pretty good advice and I would agree that there are possibilities out side OZ but very few right now. I used to fly in Africa bit I know there is no hiring going on this year for instance.

This is a global recession and it has made its self felt in most of the far off places you mention. But that is not to say in a few months or years thing maybe a lot better. To be honest I have flown up North for a couple of years in the past and it was pretty good but it had nothing on my time in Africa in terms of gaining experience and being exposed to unusual situations and not to forget seeing an amazing continent.

But what ever you get as a flying job remember to enjoy it and not wish it away for the next job.

[AutopilotEngage]

Delta Six,

Thanks for that mate, excellent to hear.

Reminds me of something my instructor told me: "Ride a mule while looking for a horse, son" - I'm still looking for a mule!! Will have a look at SE asian operators though, never really considered it until now but I guess beggars can't be choosers!

[DeltaSix]

Hi Bla bla bla, you're absolutely right. The African local operators are a bit quiet on the job front but the reason why i said it is because I've heard of a few U.S. operators with aircraft fleets ( Westwind, DC3, etc. ) flying in and out of Central Africa from Mozambique and were hiring in Jan 09 for transport pilots. They were even using Russian cargo planes. ( An2, Yak42, etc.) for some reason. Anyway, I actually saw an ad of theirs in Asia looking for pilots to train. Pay's a bit ordinary though but for low timers this is an excellent way of moving up.

My other advise is, don't be picky with the aeroplanes you fly.... yes it is more nicer and you maybe even more marketable if you get to fly US or UK planes but don't discount the others ( Antonovs, Yaks, Let410s ) as not a lot of people want to fly them thus the demand for crews. You will have a lot of competition on something like the Twotters, Dorniers, King airs, Pipers, beechcrafts, BAe, ATRs and therefore would be tough getting a gig on it. Just something to think about as a strategy to build up time.

There are Czech made Let410s in Manila that are being used for short island hops for instance and there were vacancies for 3 sets of crew (per aircraft) that got filled up quickly. The original crews all got hired to fly ATRs and A320s by a newly acquired airline. These L410s have STOL capability thus good on short strips.

So, don't be picky. You will even encounter aeroplanes that have an incomplete instrument panels. But that didn't stop me.

Hope this helps. :)