Yet another one down from Basair

[FL170]

Only a few months back one of their Tomahawk's went down over prospect. Now this. Kudos to the student, wouldn't of been much to go for from 1500'.

Student pilot crash lands in paddock | The Daily Telegraph (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/student-pilot-crash-lands-in-paddock-in-prospect/story-e6freuy9-1225769473149)

[VH-XXX]

Someone forgot to wind the bobbin and the sewing machine ran out of thread.:\

[The Green Goblin]

Planky whats your thoughts? :cool:

Sounds like a job well done.

[Backdraft5]

Heard the whole thing. Great work from the pilot who remained calm and professional, even though he would have been.....well, you know.

Who say's training time after time for something that may never happen is a waste of time. Go and buy a beer and a lotto ticket.

:ok: Top stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[das Uber Soldat]

At some point, surely, the're going to run out of tecnams faster than they can repair them. :confused:

[socks and thongs]

According to a normally seamless news source (ten news with wim tebster) the aeroplane 'ditched in a grassy field'.

[VH-XXX]

Funny looking tomahawk if I do say so!!! When did you see your dame last, you need your eyes checked? !!

[Arnold E]

Definitely not a tomatohawk:eek:

[solowflyer]

So what happened did the wipper snipper engine stop screaming? At end of day the bloke in it walked away so thats the main thing I guess.

[theflyinggeek]

Someone once told me: a good landing is any landing that you walk away from.

[tmpffisch]

Someone once told me: a good landing is any landing that you walk away from.


The boss doesn't see it that way; probably find he has higher standards.....

Kudo's to the pilot, could have been worse than it was.

[VH-XXX]

Quote:
Someone once told me: a good landing is any landing that you walk away from.


It would seem that that is the new teaching philosophy these days At many schools since everyone decided to start importing foreign students and our premiums are suffering accordingly!

[Horatio Leafblower]

Saw a sad looking Basair Grob at Camden the other day (TGV) - aparrently a cylinder fell off :eek:

Again, credit to the students who made a very sensible decision to land the thing at CN and not push on to BK.

All those Grobs are a bit neglected under the cowls :ugh:

[FL170]

Cynical, VH-XXX and Arnold E.. please read again;

Only a few months back one of their Tomahawk's went down over prospect. Now this

JFW is a Tecnam P2002JF.

2 seperate accidents, however the Tomahawk didn't hit the papers like this case. Funny how the media work.

Saw a sad looking Basair Grob at Camden the other day (TGV) - aparrently a cylinder fell off http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif


My sources have it there was a nice fat crack in the cylinder head. Rapid loss of pressure and eventually seized.

Pretty bad run for them in anyone's books, hope they get a serious look in from CASA.

[Mail-man]

Is what type they crash really the issue here???

[FL170]

Mail man has a point however I wouldn't of posted it here if I wasn't sure of it myself. The report is not public as of yet, however I guarantee you will find it in the next issue of Flight Safety. Fully seized over prospect outbound, put down in that sloping field right on the shoreline from 1500'. I remember the radio calls and the choppers vividly. Back in May/June I think it was.

[muffman]

CNV and FTG are both tomahawks and both have been operated by Basair for a few months. Well, one of them has. The other one had the aforementioned engine failure.

[bizzybody]

From one of the firies on the ground who had a chat to the pilot, his engine was starting to overheat and then......................my phone dropped out so i really have no idea after that...... I guess he landed in the grass somewhere:confused:

[pjh434]

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/625718/aws120609.pdf

3rd Page half-way down. 29/5/09.
All the attention it got.

[Ultralights]

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2009/09/04/1225769/466184-plane-crash.jpg

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2009/09/04/1225769/469269-plane-crash.jpg

[VH-XXX]

FL170, the post was deleted from before mine that said that this aircraft actually was a Tomahawk. Next time I'll quote it for people reading later-on.

Perhaps someone should have told that pilot that a rotax being both water AND air cooled, if the coolant is lost (possible scenario) that it can be safely flown home at 4,000rpm or less (of a max 5,800'ish). There would be very few other reasons as to why it would overheat, eg busted hose, coolant dropped out etc etc. Also demonstrates the importance of multiple CHT and EGT gauges which are generally not standard these days, with these the pilot can make a more informed decision about what is going on under the hood before ditching.

[Douche]

XXX, Have you seen the plane or are you speculating about the cause?
(Im not having a dig, just curious)

Personally I reckon if it was simply overheating then landing in a paddock that close to BK is a bit of overkill, i hope that there is more to it than that...

Still the plane is probably fixable, the driver is alive, can't complain too much about that!

[bizzybody]

no EGT in that aircraft. I also think its Max RPM is around 2300

[VH-XXX]

Douche, there was mention of it overheating. I was just stating a known fact about Rotaxes and overheating, no crash analysis intended in this instance :).


bizzbody says: no EGT in that aircraft. I also think its Max RPM is around 2300

Seriously, where do you guys come up with this stuff. 2,300 rpm, in a Rotax 912??? No wonder it crashed! The Rotax 912S revs out at up to 5,800rpm and 5,000 - 5,100 rpm in the cruise. Better take note of the RPM gauge next time you're taking off :bored: That's why they sound like sewing machines :)

Performance 69.0kw - 95hp at 5500
Take Off Performance 73.5kw - 100hp at 5800 (max 5 minutes)

(In your defence bizzbody, prop speed at max RPM would be around 2,386 rpm with the 2.43 reduction drive)

[bizzybody]

where do i get off saying that?????????..........10 hours in that aircraft type

[Arnold E]

BIZZYBODY
Just to make things clear, are you talking prop or engine speed. If you are talking engine, which is what the taco reads, then I agree with XXX

[Horatio Leafblower]

I have never seen a Taco in a Tecnam.

...although on Friday I did have a Burger in a Baron :}

[Arnold E]

Sorry Horatio. missed the h in burger

[Jabawocky]

SURELY NOT and engine failure........a Rotax ... :rolleyes: :E

Good work to the young fella. we all hope we never have one!

[Horatio Leafblower]

G'day

There is ONE of the three ugly sisters at Scone and my sources tell me it is getting looked after with new windscreen, touched up Gel-coat, Becker ADF installed and so on :ok:

[Jabawocky]

Brand new ADF..... is that where you put it!:ok:

[Ndegi]

BIZZYBODY IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!

The TECNAM P2002 JF is a GA certified aircraft and as such, the tacho is cable driven from the rear of the engine and shows rpm at the prop, not engine rpm as is shown in the LSA and recreational models.

[Ultralights]

now thats just weird, i have many hrs in a RAAus tecnam, but not VH rego'd tecies. i would rather know what the engine is doing instead of the prop. (fixed pitch situation only)

the engine speed tacho has green arc to 5300 rpm, yellow from 5300 to 5800 the red from then on, you can fly it in the yellow RPM band for 5 mins max, or risk overheating. if you have a Prop tacho, how do you know if the engine isnt in an overspeed situation? especilly if you dont know the cable drive to the tacho isnt giving false reading? has worn drive gear? etc. etc. he might have set the prop RPM at high cruise, then begun a cruise descent at the same throttle setting that allowed the rpm to creep up, a quick glance at the prop RPM might show it as right on the limit of the green arc, but the actual engine RPW will be an unknown.

i like to know what my engines are doing.

[VH-XXX]

The 912 does indeed have a flexible cable driven off the rear of the engine but given the prop gearbox is at the front of the engine I'm not too sure on how it could measure the prop speed unless the cable came from the front of the engine.

That being said though in theory provided that the prop was set to a fixed pitch and that the rpm gauge was appropriately marked to correspond to the appropriate prop versus engine rpm then conceivably this could be possible, however i find it hard to believe as if the prop pitch was changed or the prop changed the calibration would be all screwed up.

I will need much more convincing!

(I have 550 hours behind a 912 and the maintained it during that time so I know a little about them). I'd be surprised if the raa versus ga lsa ones would be any different in terms of engine instrumentation.

[Cap'n Arrr]

It's a fixed pitch prop. I'm fairly sure it reads engine RPM but runs it through the same reduction ratio the prop goes through. Whether it uses a gear or just calibrated the numbers on the tacho differently I have no idea though.

[baron_beeza]

Engine RPM are about double what pilots of other “Jurassic-era” machines are used to, but despite spinning twice as fast, the Rotax is significantly quieter.
In the -JF the tachometer counts (reduction-gear reduced) propeller RPM,
which should allay any frightened quivering or consternation amongst the die-hard
vintage — read “conventional” — aircraft pilots.

www.tecnamaircraft.co.uk/p2002article.pdf

www.tecnamaircraft.co.uk/p2002article.pdf


The confusion on Tacho readings seems to be purely due to the difference with the certified versions. You guys must be wondering what planet the other is on....


Regards the discussion about worn tacho drives and prop changes, -
the prop and engine always spin at the same ratio regardless. Any tacho errors are like any instrument errors,... always lurking.

[VH-XXX]

Thanks for finding those bb, most handy. Have flown atleast 10 different types with 912's from 80 hp thru to the 924 and hadn't come across this.

I guess in the end it doesn't matter what is displayed on the tacho as long as it is consistent (between same aircraft types) and is appropriately marked with maximums etc.

[FL170]

Googled a POH for it and surprise surprise:

http://www.flugschule-klv.at/klv/manual-P2002JF.pdf

Gear reduction ratio is -2.4286:1

It's as simple as putting a different card behind the needle in the Tachometer.

Ultralights- POH states operational limits on the RPM of the prop however it also gives you engine speed (this ratio of 2.4286 does not change)

Good old POH, wasn't there a discussion in a prior thread about just how much info can be gained from them! No need to speculate :hmm:

[FL170]

Beat me to it beeza :D:ok:

[VH-XXX]

I find it interesting that this was done probably to alleviate peoples concerns to make them think that the engine is not revving twice as fast as a comparable Lycoming ! I guess the manufacturers aren't comfortable with pilots thinking that the engine is revving at up to 5,800 rpm.........

[Ndegi]

Probably also to do with new students transitioning onto more advanced American GA aircraft ... not having to get used to new rpm parameters. The new Tecnam light twin also has the same certified engines running MT hydraulic props, 140kts at MTOW, 110kts on one engine and climb 500 fpm at 80 kts. I hear first one sold in Oz to a central Qld cattleman.

[VH-XXX]

I'm REALLY hanging out to see how the twin model actually performs in the real world. I guess it would be conceivably possible to climb that weight with a 912 at full fine pitch in ideal conditions. Pity they are expensive, but with 912's up top running costs will be a fracti:bored:on of something like a Seminole.

Without looking at the specs I would have guessed props would be electric pitch.

[D-J]

I'm just wondering if Tecnam couldn't be arsed taking new pic's so instead just googled one of them vulcan air things :confused:

http://www.tecnamaircraft.com/images/DSC06594.JPG

errr snap! :}

http://www.vulcanair.com.au/images/Vr/VR3.jpg

[D-J]

I pretty much guessed that, tecnam is a subsidiary of vulcan air I presume then?

[Ndegi]

According to the Tecnam Italy website, the Pascale brothers have been building aircraft for 50 years. The company 'Partenavia' was a joint venture with an Italian Govt parastatil. In the model identifier 'P' is for Pascale, the designer and in the case of the Partenavia '68' the year it was designed.

A Google pulled up this Oz link to the twin:

Aircraft for Sale, Plane Sales, Planes for Sale – Aviation Advertiser ? – Online Magazine Tecnam’s P2006 twin – a sneak preview (http://www.aviationadvertiser.com.au/2009/04/tecnams-p2006-a-sneak-preview/)

Tecnam is a privately owned company and not linked to Vulcanair which seems to be associated with Alenia.

[HTFU]

well it's interesting to see how a statement about an aircraft down from basair turned into a technical discussion on parte's

[GADRIVR]

"well it's interesting to see how a statement about an aircraft down from basair turned into a technical discussion on parte's"

Thats nothing.....once heard a conversation about the innards that make up a starter motor turn into a discourse on how to best violate a mallard! Took about 3 minutes from memory!:} Ah.......AFTS......thems were the days!