Safety implications of flights from Australia to South America

[Baltique]

I am a very nervous flyer at the best of times, but the flight I will be taking next Monday has got me worried to the extent of considering cancelling my ticket and thus my holiday....

I will be flying the QANTAS flight 17 from Sydney direct to Buenos Aires via the south pacific (Boeing 747). I have had a look at the flight path for this flight and am amazed (and shocked) by how far away this flight is from any diversion airports. Once the flight gets past New Zealand, there are no more alternates until South America - nothing but ocean and ice, with the nearest airport up to 5 hrs away if a problem occurs in mid flight.

What about a fuel leak that occurs half way through the flight (remember the AIR TRANSAT flight in the Atlantic) a cargo hold fire, or fire anywhere else on the plane from for example from faulty wiring (remember SWISSAIR) with the nearest airport 5 hours away? The key to getting out of these problems is to land ASAP, which is just not an option with this incredibly isolated flight.... As the distance of the flight is pushing the maximum range of the 747, what if you lose an engine or two and need to descend, thus increasing fuel use and jeopardising the ability of the aircraft to reach its destination or any diversion airport? How good is the weather forecasting down in the depths of the south pacific / Antarctic area - are the headwind forecasts reliable enough to be planning fuel loads with current margins of error? What about a medical emergency? (best not to have a heart attack on this flight...)

Does anyone know if there are any extra precautions (extra mechanical checks, additional fuel loading requirements, extra redundancies in equipment e.g. navigational instruments) that are put in place for flights of this nature so distant from diversion airports? I have trouble seeing myself sitting on board this plane thinking that we are so far from anywhere to land should any problem happen to occur. Any thoughts or comments from anyone on the safety implications of such an isolated flight, or any experiences with having flown on QANTAS 17/18. Thanks

[Iain Wilson]

With respect
you should probably have a word with your Medical Advisor with regard to MILD tranquiliser use. They can be very effective and whilst not assuaging your worries may give you enough respite from your anxiety symptoms to complete your flight in relative composure. Be assured that you airline WOULD NOT fly the route if the safety margins were in any way compromised.
Hope this helps!
Iain

[Bo777]

You're not serious are you!!! The probability of being involved in an aeroplane accident are 1 in 11 million. The chances of dying in a car crash are 1 in 5000. This means you are at a greater risk driving to the airport. Just like one pilot answered when asked the question referring to his occupation "Aren't you scared?" His response, "Yeah everytime I hop in the car and drive to work".
Happy flying:}

[eastern wiseguy]

Have you thought about taking a boat?

[AircraftOperations]

Check the stats for 747 incidents on this route over the years, and then put your mind at rest. Before getting really drunk on the plane and falling asleep.

[leewan]

Rest assured, all safety concerns regarding the route would have been looked into before any airline was even allowed to fly that route.
Losing an engine on a 4 holer is a not a big deal actually. A BA 747 actually flew with 3 engines when one of its engines failed on take off on tran-atl routing. Losing all 4 is a statistically remote event. AFAIK, it has happened only once and the a/c actually landed safely. Also, there are multiple redundancies to prevent such a thing happening.

Fuel is uplifted with any sudden changes in the wind conditions in mind. When you are onboard, take the best tranquiliser in the a/c, BOOZE. Just drink enough to get you sleepy and the next thing you know, you are at your destination

[K.Whyjelly]

Where's Rainboe? We need his reasoning applied to this one!!

[Scumbag O'Riley]

I'd rather be on a ETOPS Twin than a non ETOPS 747. Having said that, the statistics are meaningless as both are ridiculously safe. At the end of the day you want to take the one that costs least money.

[G&T ice n slice]

weeerl...

taking a very quick guess and using great circle mapper
a routing syd-ivc-NZWD-ush-bue would be (miles)
syd-ivc 1245
ivc-nzwd 2178
nzwd-ush 2986
ush-bue 1476

great circle SYD-BUE 7342

or syd-ivc-ush-bue
syd-ivc 1245 (say 2.5 hours) midway = 1.25hrs
ivc-ush 4716 (say 9.5 hours) midway = 4.5 hrs
ush-bue 1476 (say 3 hours) midway = 1.5 hrs

So you see you're not far from somewhere really
(I have no idea if you could get a 747 down an McMurdo Sound)

[SeenItAll]

Airstrip at McMurdo shows 10000' x 220'. More than enough length and width for a 744 -- but guessing that the surface may be gravel or ice and can't take the weight. But if the plane was in real distress, I would assume crew would be happy to land there -- even if the plane got knackered and couldn't take off again.

[rgbrock1]

@baltique,

I share your pain. I too am one of those notorious nervous passengers. My wife and I recently did a round-trip (vacation) from CT, USA to St. Thomas USVI. Not much of a distance. I have found the key to relaxation on any flight is contained right there in the plane: wine. Drink lots of it and the flight will be just fine. I usually drink enough of the red stuff until the FA's won't serve me anymore. That's usually enough to cause me to relax and, occasionally, sleep.

[G&T ice n slice]

Or... to look at it another way...

41% of airborne time is <= 60 mins from airport
17% is >60.and.<=90
or 59% of the journey time is within 90 mins

thereafter for each 30 mins represents +/-7%

so 66% (or two-thirds) is within 120 mins of airport

only 34% (or 1/3rd) is more than 2 hours

edit - ummm yes I know its called 'rounding'

[davidjohnson6]

If a 747 had significant difficulties over The Ice, there are 4 big issues to deal with:

1) Antarctica can experience some appalling weather - people who are dressed for the interior of an aircraft cabin may have some issues here. Even the Antarctica peninsula can experience some pretty lousy weather in January at very short notice.
2) The austral winter makes it very difficult to land a large airplane. Even in summer, a white-out is not the time to try landing on an ice runway !
3) Where do you accommodate 400 extra people at an Antarctica base ? Even somewhere as large as McMurdo would have difficulties. Accommodation quarters in most bases are pretty cramped.
4) How do you get these 400 people out of Antarctica if the weather is nasty ?

[Baltique]

Thanks for the replies so far (apart from those just telling me to get drunk and not think about it.....:bored:)

Just another thought - what about a cabin decompression at maximum distance between airports? - an event well within the realms of possibility. Could a 747 descend to 14000 feet (or whatever is required for passengers to breathe normally) and still have enough fuel to motor on to South America or back to New Zealand??

As for McMurdo - I once spent a season at Macquarie Island (arrival by boat :)) and the weather on this sub-antartctic island is enough to convince me that the concept of using Antarctica as a diversion possibility is pretty dodgy (as per the above comments....)

Still unsure whether I am going to cancel :uhoh:

[Load Toad]

Xanax.

Your fears are way out of proportion to the risks. Get some Xanax down you.

[racedo]

Based on your original question, if Cabin decompression occurs the best bet is to adopt the brace position, then stick your head between your legs.

[davidjohnson6]

Baltique - the limited time I've spent at Antarctic bases has reinforced very strongly quite how much thought goes into safety, and how much people living at bases think ahead on the lines of "What would I do if X happened and what precautions do I need to take to ensure that I have a backup if X should happen".

Even simple things like rowing a boat across ten metres of water are covered by this - on the grounds of 'What happens if I drop an oar ?' People spending their first few months living on The Ice describe it as very much a learning experience in this aspect. If living at a base, once you go more than a short distance away from the base, the safety procedures are very tight. The first thing a scientist working on the ice does when arriving at a remote site to perform an experiement, is set up the safety equipment - only then do they think about the scientific gear they are carrying.

On that basis, I would imagine that aviation authorities have adopted a similiar approach to flying over Antarctica of paying particular attention to safety.

One final thing to add - Argentina is a fantastic place for a holiday, don't even think of missing out on going there !

[Di_Vosh]

Baltique, please don't take this the wrong way, but so far, we've had:

A fuel leak that occurs half way through the flight... a cargo hold fire, or fire anywhere else on the plane from for example from faulty wiring ... if you lose an engine or two ... How good is the weather forecasting down in the depths of the south pacific ... a medical emergency?

and a decompression.

I'm sure with a bit of imagination you can come up with some more.

With respect (thanks Iain) I think you're talking yourself out of your holiday.

As some other posters have mentioned, Air travel is the safest form of modern transport. You're travelling in one of the safest modern airliners, with Qantas, who have arguably the safest reputation of any jet airline.

Although you wont have time to do this before you take this trip (if you go, that is) I'd suggest that you take a "fear of flying" course.

Meanwhile, the suggestion of tranqs, OR alcohol (not at the same time, obviously) is a good one.

DIVOSH!

[Baltique]

Its not so much the range of things that could go wrong - any of these could happen on any flight. It is rather the distance of this particular flight from any diversion airports (5 or more hours distant from the nearest possibility in the worst case scenario), where the plane could divert to deal with any problems that is worrying me. Its a long way from anywhere at 70 degrees south in the Pacific between New Zealand, South America and Antarctica........:(

[Load Toad]

...and it would be at best ironic if you made it all the way to the end of a flight and got hit by a runaway elephant from the local zoo as you exited the airport.


It could happen - it's just not very likely is it?

[Rollingthunder]

Consider Syd- Lax. Once you're past Fiji its a very long way to Hnl.

[JulieFlyGal]

Does anyone know if there are any extra precautions (extra mechanical checks, additional fuel loading requirements, extra redundancies in equipment e.g. navigational instruments) that are put in place for flights of this nature so distant from diversion airports?

This is a scenario that comes up often in the Australian ATPL flight planning exam; an emergency giving rise to an abnormal situation (eg, engine out, depressurisation etc) whereby we then need to calculate the fuel required to either continue on to the destination, divert to an alternate airport or return home (PNR type question).

I'm sure airlines and their flight operations/flight dispatch department would have done their homework on this and considered such abnormal operations in calculating their fuel requirements.

[radeng]

As Bo777 says, worry much more about the drives to and from the airport.
There are countries where that episode frightens me much more than their possibly dodgy airlines - which I generally avoid anyway. And Qantas hardly has a reputuation as a dodgy airline, even though they appear to have had their moments. Last year on holiday, I felt safer in a Qantas aeroplane than a Sydney taxi.....

[Load Toad]

Pull yourself together and stop being a wuss. Do you go through this cr*p when you get in a f' taxi?

[TightSlot]

I had a feeling it would somehow come to this - the only surprise being that the person posting the above is not who I had expected.

Baltique - the answer to your question is that all relevant precautions are taken for the route, including plans for low speed/low altitude flight to a diversionary airfield. The Air Transat incident that you mentioned is not relevant here: Once the fuel ran out, the aircraft was only going downwards, and this would have been catastrophic anywhere in the world where the aircraft was further than half an hour away from a diversionary airfield. The Swissair accident took place well within diversion range of several airfields - it was the speed, location and intensity of the fire that proved to be the determinants.

You may be interested to know that it is quite normal for you to be some distance away from a diversion airfield, even when over land. Winter B777 sectors from the far east to Europe can become ETOPS sectors if weather affects airfields in China. Similarly, North Atlantic weather can drastically affect the availability of diversionary airfields on a straightforward atlantic sector.

In short, aviation is not a 'risk free' environment, rather it is one of 'managed risk'. Nobody can tell you that a flight, or indeed any human activity, is 'completely safe' - after all, people slip and hurt themselves in the bathroom. When you travel, you will have to, regrettably, accept that you are delegating your personal safety to somebody else. The good news is that the person involved is as averse to risk taking as yourself, and as keen to survive the day.

Personally, I'd advise against using alcohol as an anaesthetic - Doing so may help reduce your fears (or may exaggerate them) but can cause as many difficulties as it resolves. Sleeping pills if you feel you must, but a Fear of Flying course might have a better effect in the long run.

[Load Toad]

Sorry TS but sometimes after a lot of advice people really need to at least try to get a bit of a grip.
I went through a patch of having an irrational fear of flying - particularly the take off phase for some reason - after a few flights of grabbing the arm rest and worrying about everything that could happen I simply decided it was time to stop ruining the enjoyment of flying - and a good portion of my life - and just relax, put the fears into perspective and - get on with it.

Sometimes all the comforting words in the world are not going to work; you have to decide for yourself if disproportionate fear is going to rule your life - or vice versa.

[Load Toad]

Another way of looking at it.

The examples given are far fetched. Possible but not likely. About as possible as finding out the taxi driver is an axe wielding serial killer. But you don't think of that when you get in a taxi.

The difference is - whatever happens in a taxi - you think you have some control over it; jump out, shout 'stop', call the police, fight the driver etc. Actually you don't have control - you feel you do but - not really.

You can't fight the plane at 30,000ft, can't even see the pilot, can't get out, can't step off onto the pavement. You know you have no control - once you are on.

So the fear is not about the possible event.

It is about lack of control of the situation.

Since you can not control the situation - unless you buy a plane, maintain it, fly it, staff it and control the weather, other 'planes and ATC etc...

...you may as well find a way to live with it.

[Load Toad]

If the instance is 'control' - surely the fear is a deeper issue than flying? Why would someone fear not being in control...?

[Capetonian]

Perhaps also worth mentioning that the huge majority of incidents occur on take off or landing, rather than in cruise. Therefore the length of the flight is irrelevant. That of course may not mitigate your concern over the distance from the nearest deviation airport but it is worthy of thought.

I mention this because a friend of mine recently asked me if he thought it would be safer to fly from London to somewhere in the CIS on a nonstop flight of the CIS carrier, or on Austrian Airlines via VIE. I persuaded him that the CIS carrier's safety record would have to be significantly worse than Austrian Airlines before the risk of the two sector flight on OS was greater.

That said, I recently flew from London to Harare on SAA via JNB rather than risk my neck on Air Zimbuggered.

[Saintsman]

Baltique,

When you went to Macquarie Island, did you run through the same scenarios?

What if the ship hit an iceberg, the engines caught fire etc?

In a ship you could have been days away from land and here you are worried about a few hours.

I'm sure you enjoyed your trip by boat so why not enjoy your trip by aeroplane? Approach it with a positive attitude rather than negative and you'll soon wonder where all the time had gone when you land at your destination.

[davidjohnson6]

I know I'm not a mod, but this is just my personal view.

There seems to be a degree of pillorying of Baltique for his/her worries about flying. Everyone has fear of something without precise scientific cause - for others it may be spiders or creepy-crawlies. In polite company, nobody gets ridiculed for fear of spiders..... seems unfair to ridicule someone for fear of flying.

[Final 3 Greens]

David

Well said. Baltique's concerns are rational, even if many people here think them over anxious.

I'm not firghtened of flights like this, but I wouldn't dream of calling someone a wus for thinking through what could happen and worrying about it.

Remember AF447. It can happen, even though the odds favour us to a very great degree.

TS makes a very good point about a fear of flying course, someone who can rationalise the fear can probably benefit from learning from experts who can put it into perspective.

[TightSlot]

I think Load Toad has got the message, so may we take that as read please?

[One Outsider]

There are far too many who wants to have their "fears" confirmed. You see it here all the time with people writing "I saw this, I heard that, wasn't that unusual, abnormal, dangerous?". They don't want to be told no, they want to be confirmed in their belief that something out of the ordinary happened to them. A result of the sheltered lives most people live, no doubt.
*
So let's face reality. Baltique, you are going to die. Eventually. Life is fatal.
Worrying about imaginary disasters will only speed up the inevitable.*
*
And lay of the booze. Fear and stimulants are not a good mix when travelling to your certain death in a metal tube. On top of that, being intoxicated onboard an aircraft is an offense.

[leewan]

the only surprise being that the person posting the above is not who I had expected.

Who did you expect then ?:)
Somewhere over the ......:)

You fear of what you do not know. So, to defeat that fear, know more about commercial aviation. Fear of flying course could be a start.

I, for example, used to be afraid of every bumps during turbulence, every sudden noise that came suddenly during a flight. Taking a flight was akin to a roller coaster ride for me. Except that this lasted 6++ hours.

After choosing the aviation engineering trade as my occupation, I no longer fear flying as I used to as I know there are so much things that are in place from the personnel to the equipments and SOPs to prevent an accident from happening.

In fact, most aviation incidents are not the cause of a single reason but a combination of reasons. ( Swiss Cheese model)

So, chill dude.

[Baltique]

Lots of interesting responses - even those telling me to cut the crap and just get a grip.... at the end of the day they are probably right.

Yes, statistically my fears are unreasonable, but I guess all of the passengers on AF447 thought the probabilities were overwhelmingly in their favour as well.... Even though my fears are disproportionate, that does not stop them dominating my thoughts. I just cannot shake from my mind the fact that machines break, humans are fallible, natural phenomena (turbulence, thunderstorms) can suprise with their power and unpredictability and that in this context being in the middle of the far south pacific half way between New Zealand and South America is just not a comfortable place to be... When every minute of a flight is spent turning over in my mind all the possible disaster scenarios, minutes seem to last hours, and 13 hours of this is just insurmountable. The concept of managed risk does little to allay runaway fear. Beyond a general anasthetic, I really am not sure what to do.

Just in regards to the boat trip to Macquarie Island - its just not the same as a plane. Yes, things go wrong in a boat - but you feel as though there are still second chances if a problem occurs (if the boat stops - it still floats, if it sinks - there are lifeboats, if the lifeboat sinks - there is a lifejacket etc). You also have the impression that you have some control over your destiny (your decisions may have an impact on the outcome). On a plane you have no control over your destiny, second chances once you are headed for terra firma (or liquid ferma...) are limited and the concept of dying in a disintegrating burning plane inamongst screaming people is the stuff of nightmares. Yes - I know that I am going to die eventually but there is just some "horror" quality to the concept of a plane accident that makes me want to avoid going out this way at any cost....

Buenos Aires is not looking very likely

[The Real Slim Shady]

Baltique

the biggest disaster that is likely to come your way is that the passengers before you have chosen the chicken / beef / veg option that you were looking forward to.

Seriously, you have to take a balanced view: would the airline risk losing 400 pax, 16 crew and US$250 Mill of 747 every time it flies that route if, on the balance of probability, there was even a remote chance that disaster would befall them?

Flying is safer than XXXXX (fill the blanks): we all have to deal with our "fears / dislikes" on a daily basis and only you can decide if the perceived danger and effect on your health of taking the trip outweighs the benefit of the trip.

Whatever you choose, be assured, that as professional aircrew we will accept your choice and hope that we can welcome you on board and allay any fears you may have.

[Load Toad]

And really if your fear of flying is so great that alcohol, drugs, counselling or such don't help; don't fly.

No point making yourself anxious if you can not conquer or control your fear. Admit defeat, submit, give up.

You don't have to do something you don't want.

[OFSO]

Yes - I know that I am going to die eventually but there is just some "horror" quality to the concept of a plane accident that makes me want to avoid going out this way at any cost....

Baltique, whilst I (as one also suffering from chronic and totally unwarrented 'angst' in respect of driving mountain roads and high bridges) have some sympathy with your fears, logic should be quietly applied here.

Years ago I lost a colleague when the "Herald of the Free Enterprise" turned over just outside Zeebrugge harbour. Her death - and the death of the many others on the RoRo ferry - was as horrible as I can conceive.

At that time I was taking the same ferries perhaps ten times a year, and my reaction was "who would have thought it possible ? Surely the Channel ferries are much safer than flying....."


BTW I would not recommend alcohol. There are a number of highly effective forms of self-hypnosis which work very well. Good luck !

OFSO

[Bealzebub]

It is a reliable 4 engined airplane with enough fuel for the trip, diversion to a destination alternate, and a reserve quantity. It has multiple system redundancy, ensuring an extremely high degree of additional safety. There are multiple fire supression systems. It will have a well trained and experienced crew on board. It will carry required items of medical equipment. The weather forecasts and actuals will be monitored and assessed at regular intervals. Diversion options will be continously considered. Odds of it not safely delivering you to your destination are greater than those of you winning the national jackpot lottery 2 weeks in succession.

Yes it will be a long way from diversion airports on occaisions, and if you are planning on having a heart attack, you would have to rely on the expertise of the crew and any qualified passengers who might be on board for a few hours. Any possible fuel leak will be noticed and would be curtailed. There would always be enough fuel to reach an alternate. No it won't divert to the Antarctic. If you are extremely unlucky enough to experience a cabin pressure loss, the aircraft will descend to 10,000ft and divert to an en-route alternate, wherever that might be. Yes it will always have enough fuel to do that.

Despite this, if it worries you to the point of making you feel ill, then book a series of flights that ticks all the boxes of your irrational concerns. You can stay closer to major airports, fly on other airlines and other aircraft types, over other oceans to other airports. The choice is yours.It won't be any safer but it may make you feel happier. We can only tell it like it is. If you don't want to go, then don't go. Otherwise put your faith in God and the Crew and you will be fine. If you are an atheist, then just put it in God!

[Final 3 Greens]

Beazelbub

That is a fantastic post :ok::ok::ok:

[ConstantFlyer]

Dear Baltique, I do hope you get to Buenos Aires. Missing out on seeing such a fantastic vibrant city would be a real shame. Most of the people I know that have expressed a fear of flying have benefited from learning more about the science of flight and how an aeroplane works. Even my mother-in-law went in the space of a year from a confirmed refusenik to a frequent flyer card holder, so I do believe in miracles! Have a wonderful time in Argentina, and don't forget: Endure the flight there and you'll enjoy the flight back.

[Da Do Ron Ron]

...and it would be at best ironic if you made it all the way to the end of a flight and got hit by a runaway elephant from the local zoo as you exited the airport.

:D superb ...........

[Bealzebub]

A pressurised Jumbo with a medical condition, escapes from an artic' and embarks on a fuel blown rampage through the steets of Buenos Aires? You know when you've been Tango'ed! :hmm:

[c2lass]

Baltique

I sympathise with you however I don't think you should cancel.

How many times a day/week does this flight go?? How long has it been doing this route?? How many planes fly in a day/week etc without incident? Must be thousands.

I too am like you although I wouldn't cancel a holiday because of my fear. Every noise, every bit of turbulence terrifies me. I don't show it, it is well hidden!!

I am a born worrier and when I do start worrying about things I always think about what my husband says to me and that is "How many things that you worry about come true"? Yes, very good question and the answer is staggering "none". So why do I spend half my life worrying about things that never happen??

May I suggest you buy a couple of the cockpit DVDs you can buy which show you all what goes on before and during a flight. I purchased the Virgin 747 on route from Heathrow to San Francisco. Excellent DVD which shows all the prep, all the what if's etc and certainly has helped me tremendously.

Good luck

[Wannabe Flyer]

Baltique.

Don't miss out on a holiday. You don't have a fear of flying just a fear of being away from land (or at least reachable land). I am sure there is an alternate albeit longer route to get to Argentina while being within glide able distance to land al a transat!

One would be from Sydney to Singapore to Delhi to London to Chicago to Miami to Buenos Aries.

Guys any other ideas to keep him above land? :zzz:

[angels]

Train to Darwin Australian Rail Maps (http://www.railpage.org.au/railmaps/).

Hop on a boat to East Timor. Here's a link The Cruise People Ltd. (http://www.tcpltd.com/) to some nice Canadians who can book freighter travel (or a cruise if you prefer).

Backpack across the Indonesian islands. Plenty of ferries. Sumba Pelni ferries (http://www.roughguides.com/website/travel/Destination/content/default.aspx?titleid=67&xid=idh442406176_0492) Don't Google 'Indonesia Ferry', all you get is stories of them sinking. They can be quite unsafe, but you are near land so it'll be okay.

Train along Java to Jakarta. You can book here PT Kereta Api (Persero) » (http://infoka.kereta-api.com/).

Pelni Ferry (see above) to Batam.

Ferry to Singers File:Batam center harbour.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Batam_center_harbour.jpg). There are plenty all week. You can take Duty Free into Singers because you've been in Indonesia for more than 24 hours. Contrary to public belief, you can take chewing gum in to Singers, but not for resale. There are industrial size packets of it available at the ferry terminal.

Freighter from Singers to LA (see above).

Greyhound Bus Tickets & Travel Info (http://www.greyhound.com/home/en/ticketsandtravel/TicketsAndTravelInfo.aspx) to Dallas or San Antonio.

Now we're nearly there. Take the Pan-American Highway File:PanAmericanHwy.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PanAmericanHwy.png) to Buenos Aires.

Simple. :ok:

[j3pipercub]

angels, that was an awesome post

[Ancient Observer]

In my humble opinion, if all the wise advice on here hasn't helped, then don't go.
My irrational fears focus on rides in the big parks. Not the extreme, but modern rides, but the supposedly "old world" rides, supposed made of wood, and which creak.
So, I'll go on the really wild rides, but just will not go on the "wooden" ones. End of.

I used to fly all over the world, all the time. I have to say that I haven't come across your concern before. I do hope that you find the right solution for you!

[Bo777]

Baltique
No need to worry. Air travel is one of the safest forms of transport, exemplified in some of these clips YouTube - YouTube - Plane Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjRVC2-SP9g) and YouTube - - Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQKEKi3eRQc&feature=PlayList&p=FC5550F0398F134D&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=28) :E

[Katamarino]

But angels, how does he cross the Darian gap!? :confused::}

[Pom Pax]

I would consider the biggest danger on this flight is starvation!
Flight QF 17 Meal: Lunch / Refreshment Total duration: 13h 20m
Flight QF 18 Meal: Lunch / Refreshment Total duration: 14h 35m
So a hearty breakfast first and take your own sandwiches because Qantas' healthy meals are a bit skimpy!

[angels]

I wondered if someone would bring up the irksome problem of the Darian Gap!

It's quiet, so I'm going to have a check and see how people do it. Back soon I hope.

Edited to add - Hmm, it is a problem. It is virtually impossible to cross overland and would be very dangerous. The following below is from the Thorn Tree on Lonely Planet in reply to someone wanting to know how to beat the Gap -- looks like our plane hater should do the cruise!

You can fly cheap from Panama City to Cartagena or Baranquilla for about $140-160 one way on Aires, or you can take a boat and see San Blas in the process, which also shouldn't be missed for around $350-400 for a 4-5 day trip. There are some less savvy people who go from Puerto Obaldia to Capurgana, then on to Turbo (which is quite dangerous) using various lanchas and water taxis. But that route is one I don't recommend either, despite its rising popularity among lower-budget backpackers. You're better off flying from PC if you can't afford the boat trip.

[G&T ice n slice]

I noticed the Darien Gap, but was (still am) trying to work out a routing involving surface transportation through (or near) places like Helmand, Somalia etc..........