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Babaleka
3rd Sep 2009, 05:40
As a humble SLF flying Economy Class in Europe , Africa and the Middle East with tongue (partly) in cheek I offer the following . I could have gone on but had to stop somewhere.

The comments raise questions that I (and I am sure others) would like to put to Cabin Crew and look forward to reading their responses. Hats off to you all- I could never ever do your job .



Never upset the cabin crew with veiled smart sarcastic comments . They have heard it all before , they know where you are sitting and ( rumours abound of how) they can get back at you by putting nasty things in your coffee.
If you think you might have inadvertently upset a member of the Cabin Crew then grovel. See above.
If you want to get the attention of a CC then speak. If you look at them directly in the eye to get their attention they may ignore you or worse feel threatened and – See above .
Do not try and sweet talk CC in to giving you an upgrade – See above.
Never ask a member of the CC “what that tiny island we flew over 10 or 20 minutes ago was”. See above.
The front of the seating area is where Moms and their babies are seated and should be known as the Nursery.
If put in or near the Nursery on a long haul use any means legal to get another seat.
Never take an aisle seat on an overnight flight. By doing so your arms and legs (which are encroaching in the aisle space) provide useful objects for passengers to bump in to , kick and loudly curse.
If people are having sex in the seat opposite give up trying not to stare and enjoy the show. Happened to me on a very bumpy Dublin to Amsterdam flight when everyone except the couple concerned went very quiet .To their credit did put in on good performance.
If someone “kindly” offers you their seat in exchange for yours – refuse.
Monitor movement to and from the toilets carefully .If a large person enters and only after twenty minutes exits it’s best to try another one .
Bring you own water bottles.
Most Airline websites are impossible to make sense of . They are designed to confuse you and put you off all attempts to log miles , choose your seat , make complaints etc. etc etc.And – most importantly :

On anything over a twenty minute flight never ever go in to the toilet without your shoes on.

Di_Vosh
3rd Sep 2009, 11:32
Great stuff! :ok:

On anything over a twenty minute flight never ever go in to the toilet without your shoes on.


I'd change that to include flights of 20 minutes or less!

DIVOSH!

Glamgirl
3rd Sep 2009, 23:12
The secret of flying isn't difficult to figure out.

1. The crew are there to look after you - as in getting your behind out that door - not "extra" services.

2. Be polite

3. Kids cry/scream. Bring ear plugs.

4. Don't EVER go to the bath room without shoes on.

5. If you can't wear more than shorts/t-shirt on a flight, please bring a jumper/long trousers. You will get cold.

6. The call bell is for emergencies, not to ask "where are we flying over (sic)"

7. Be polite.

8. The crew don't ask you to do certain things (fasten seat belt etc) to annoy you. Just do it.

9. Have your boarding card ready when you board the aircraft.

10. Be polite.


Gg

Ancient Observer
4th Sep 2009, 11:14
Glamgirl,
I know that you're normally flying out of lgw with lower manned short hop flights, and I know that you kindly give cuddles for pc help, and I know that you are the voice of CC reason, but reading what you've just written about the call bell was a bit of a "shock" to me.

It just shows how our expected standards have changed over time.
In the past - and I've no idea when it stopped, and you may well be too young to remember this, - the call bell didn't use to be reserved for emergencies - it was used, and staff told it it should be used, for requests for service. From 1990 to mid 2000s I was a BA and SQ gold card holder, so I travelled quite a bit, and that's what I used the call bell for.

Oh, well, things change, I guess.

GwynM
4th Sep 2009, 12:24
1. Get there early, show your boarding card, stow your bag and sit down
2. Listen and watch (or pretend) to the safety talk
3. Always smile and say thank-you
4. Avoid the toilet on all flights unless absolutely bursting - they are likely to be cleaner and dryer when you land (apart from LHR T3)
5. Only use the call bell if you need another G&T
6. Get off reasonably quickly and don't p155 off the passengers behing you by faffing around getting your badly stowed hand luggage out of a locker several rows back
7. Leave your seat area relatively tidy (where you have room to actually pick something up after you've dropped it)
8. Smile and say thank-you when you leave
9. Get home, go on PPRUNE and have a rant about poor service / delays / cabin crew / check-in desks (delete as appropriate)

rgbrock1
4th Sep 2009, 14:50
Might I add one more rule to the list?

1. Do not try to stuff your 95 lb "carry on" bag into an overhead bin. This will usually require you to have to remove someone else's normal sized carry on from that same bin, depositing it elsewhere. Which can be confusing for the owner of the normal-sized bag. And should your 95 lb. carry on bag fall out of the overhead bin, say during some moderate turbulence when the aircraft is flying at 600 mph rocking 30 degrees from side to side, and it hits me on the head, I will hunt you down. And it won't be pretty.

TightSlot
4th Sep 2009, 15:01
Ancient Observer - that remains the case today. Nothing has changed, except the attitude of some crew. I'm sure that GG, a normally reliable source, did not intend the call-bell statement to be as strident as it read.

phineas
4th Sep 2009, 15:55
A few more:

On a long haul flight there is no point in standing up while the plane is taxiing to the stand. Don’t make a dash for the exits. Most airports you’ll wait 10 minutes for your luggage and it’ll take another 10 to clear passport control. My goal is to be first on and last off, not everybody can be last off. The plane is taxiing to the stand, you are in an isle seat and the person on beside you is tutting to try to make you stand up. I have to bite my tongue to stop myself being so abusive that I’ll get on some sort of blacklist.

If you didn’t get the upgrade you thought you deserved get over it. It doesn’t matter who you work for how much you travel nobody has a right to an upgrade. If it means that much to you pay for it

I’d like to say a big thank you to BA cc, they have been universally excellent and deserve every penny they earn.

WHBM
4th Sep 2009, 16:32
6. The call bell is for emergencies....
Glamgirl :

The last sector I took the call bell push was indicated by a pictogram of a (female) flight attendant (although not as Glamorous as you are, I am sure) walking with a service tray held up high.

I am just wondering what is the type of emergency that requires the FA to walk elegantly balancing something on a tray ? :)

6chimes
4th Sep 2009, 19:41
Unfortunately times have changed, there are much reduced crew levels on flights these days. It is challenge enough to get the service done as it is. The call bell just makes it worse. Of course it is there for you to get our attention and request some form of service.

Imagine, 200 people crammed in down the back and each one pressing the call bell. It's a hell of a lot of extra work load.

Some SLF do believe that the call bell is there to get an informal upgrade, where they can use it throughout the flight to get that extra service you get by paying a premium and moving further toward the front of the a/c.

On most flights I'm happy to scamper up and down the cabin answering call bells on others, when the service has gone upside down for whatever reason, and yes I do feel a bit miffed when I get there and find someone wants a tissue.

Other than that, I like the rules (should be known as hints) given so far.

6

Abusing_the_sky
4th Sep 2009, 22:42
I really hope our dear pax will see the following as pure tongue in cheek :}:

1. When you board the aircraft and you're being asked for you boarding pass, please don't say "oh i just put it away", "the girl at the gate took it off me", "she didn't give me one", "i just showed it to the other person", "what do you need it for"; yes, we've heard it all before and no, we're not trying to annoy you, we're just doing what we're asked to do (part of the job and all that)

2. Not long haul case, but short haul with no allocated seats: please move towards the center of the cabin choosing ANY available seats (as quickly as possible). Reason we ask you this: very short turn around which we have to accomplish; all the seats are exactly the same with exactly the same leg room (apart from emergency exit rows); please leave the fannying about, getting the water out, the sandwiches, the magazines, MP3's, iPhones, iPods and so on for after take off after the seat belt sign goes off.

3. In some cases, when the loads are under the capacity of the a/c, rows 3 and 4 are blocked off for take off and landing. It's a manufacturer's rule, we obey it. We tell you when you board, we make PA's, please don't go and sit in these rows. Just for take off and landing. Please don't lift up the tray tables, put the signs under the seats, have a moan about it.

4. Be polite (to quote Gg)

5. Please don't EVER touch us. Pulling our apron, tapping our shoulders... Please don't do it. Raises the blood pressure and that's not good at all.

6. The call bell issue... That is INDEED for emergencies, no matter what's the picture on it. Please advise your little angel that the call bell is not a toy, but an "emergency button". Should you care for another drink that's fine, please feel free to press the call bell however don't get angry when we don't come running to you; we might still be in the service or dealing with other things so we'll come to you as soon as we can.

7. Don't swear at us; that's the ultimate wrong thing to do.
If your friend missed the flight, your grandma's flight has been canceled, you paid for priority boarding and didn't get it, you've been charged for extra luggage at the gate, airport car park is too expensive, weather is bad, your car's broken... Please don't take it out on us. Talk to us, we'll maybe (if we can and it's our place to do so) give you advice or just listen to you providing the time and flight planning. We'll be there for you as long as you treat us with respect and say "hey guys, my nan's flight has been canceled, what do you think i should do?"

8. When you use the "facilities" on board. Please don't fill the cabin with "THAT" smell... Use the toilets in the airport before you board the a/c, they are much cleaner and there won't be any funny looks from CC when you exit the toilet having left "THAT" smell behind you.
Imagine you sitting at your desk in the office, having your tuna pasta lunch and suddenly, this smell that could put an elephant to sleep fills the room... Not nice, is it?
And ladies, leaving the sanitary towels on the floor, in the toilet, showing them in the bin, it's not nice.... If no sanitary bags are in the toilets, please use the sick bags carefully placed on the side of the sink. Some of us, in a 25mins turn around, don't feel like cleaning after your "misfortune". Would you, if we'd come to your house/office and do it?
Mums, when you decide to change the baby on the seats... Please ask us which one of the toilets has a baby facility. It's the one at the rear of the cabin, as you face the rear, on your right. Just ask! And please don't use the napkins dispenser as a "bin". You can tell it's not a bin, it has "Napkins Dispenser" written on it. Use the flappy bit on the side that has a "Towels bin" drawn on it.

9. As soon as we've landed and we're taxiing to the stand, please don't stand up and start fannying with your bags, switch your phone on, shout "oi sharon, i'll meet you at them passport people"...
Getting your bags before other people won't get you off the aircraft first, nor will it get you out of the terminal first (remember those immigration folks, they can be a right..... cherry on the cake so why the rush?).

10. Please, just do as we say. Sit down, buckle up, and pay attention to the Safety Demo, no matter how many times you've seen it before, As soon as that seat belt sign goes on, there's not much you could do. It's on for a reason, not because we feel like it.

As an extra: Be polite! Won't kill you plus it will make our day so much better!

:ok:

obgraham
4th Sep 2009, 22:52
Nice to know that the primary function of the SLF is to not annoy the CC.

Here all this time I thought it was to provide them with a job. Proof of this: when we stop flying, CC get laid off!

Go on, pile on now, I know you want to!

Abusing_the_sky
4th Sep 2009, 23:26
Oh obgraham, what a sweetie you are!:}

Please note:

I really hope our dear pax will see the following as pure tongue in cheek :}: Rule 11: Don't ever, EVER tell a CC "i pay your salary".
Say you are a bus driver, i stop taking the bus, use the tube instead, er go,
Proof of this: when we stop flying, CC get laid off!

could be translated into: When we stop taking the bus, the bus driver gets laid off! Or when we stop going to the restaurant, the chef gets laid off! Or when we stop using landlines, the BT engineer gets laid off! Or when we stop using cinemas, the person who shows the movies gets laid off! Or when we stop using the London Eye, it's employees get laid off!

And i could go on and on and on and on...
Get my drift? :rolleyes:

Glamgirl
5th Sep 2009, 00:21
Apologies to those who took offense to my posting about the call bells. What I was trying to say (albeit badly) was that the call bell isn't there to be used as a "toy" or used just for the hell of it.

I'll explain: I'm walking through the cabin clearing up rubbish. A passenger looks at me, I ask if he (or she) is ok. He says "yes, thanks". I move on, and get to the galley. The call bell goes off. Guess who it is? Yep, the chap I just asked if he was ok. I head up there and he'd like another drink. No problem as such, but I just wish he could have asked me while I was there, that's all. (I will not express this to the passenger of course, just to clarify).

Of course you can use the call bell if you'd like another drink or need something. We'd just prefer if it was used sparingly. Does that make more sense?

I accept that I didn't explain it very well in my last post - and I have a funny feeling I haven't explained it fantastically well in this one either, and for that I apologise.

Gg

obgraham
5th Sep 2009, 00:27
Well, Abuser, I was all with you, till you told me it was my patriotic duty to hold my intestinal contents till we arrived. Not always possible, what with the lower ambient pressure, and the effect of Boyle's Law on that bean burrito I scarfed in the departure lounge.

11Fan
5th Sep 2009, 04:38
And.... be very nice to the person that could conceivably be the one that saves your life.

SetStandard
5th Sep 2009, 10:41
Don’t scoff down a bean burrito then if you have got bad guts.............. :D

Tongue in cheek this one mate........ :rolleyes:

G&T ice n slice
5th Sep 2009, 15:29
I thought there were just 3 simple rules:

(1) sit down
(2) shut up
(3) don't bother us

bondim
5th Sep 2009, 15:59
Glamgirl, I think what happens when you ask a pax if he/she ok then walk on, you are sort of "prompting" them to think "well, yes, now that you ask, I could do with another drink". It is the same that when you tell people that the toilets are out of use for landing, you give them the idea that "actually, I do need to go to the toilet£". See what I mean?

However, I totally agree that callbells should be used sparingly. My pet hate is when pax push the callbell when I am standing 2 rows in front of them (and trust me, I am well visible when in the cabin). Why does that annoy me so much, I don/t know...yet, still better than POKING!

waco
5th Sep 2009, 16:23
airlines only exist for one reason.....to move the crew from one party to another......:rolleyes:

Glamgirl
5th Sep 2009, 17:17
Bondim,

It's one of those "damned if I do, damned if I don't" situations. If I don't check that the passenger is ok, I'm classified as rude, but when asking if they're ok, I'm encouraging them to want more...

Waco,

You must really love cabin crew...:rolleyes:

Gg

Abusing_the_sky
5th Sep 2009, 17:40
Maybe we should also have a "Rules for CC from SLF point of view" thread :)


Rgds,
ATS

[runs for her life after opening THE can of worms]

:}

west lakes
5th Sep 2009, 18:23
I suspect the "we pay your wages brigade" would go down the lines of something like: -

You are our servents so we can do whatever we like with no hindrence or critisism
:\

PAXboy
5th Sep 2009, 22:58
An interesting point about the call bell, I used it last Tuesday night for the first time in - I cannot remember how long - certainly more than five years. Normally, I would catch CC attention as they are passing.

As it happens, I was on my frequent route of JNB~LHR (BA WT+ this time) and the dinner choice was the classic beef/chicken. I asked if the beef had any spices in it and was told that it did not. My neighbour opened his beef and it certainly smelt fine. I took the beef. It turned out to be liberally covered with black pepper and so I used the call bell to ask for the chicken!

Babaleka
6th Sep 2009, 02:02
But seriously:


There is no excuse for being anything but police to cabin Crew.
I occasionally like to know what piece of land we just flew over and found that recording the name of a town from the moving Flight Information map and then later working back on the Internet does help.
The Nursery : Happened once – lesson learnt – will never happen again.
The toilets : This is a bit of a dilemma and may open up a can of worms . To avoid DVT we are told to take “plenty” of fluids. How much is plenty ? Do Airlines have guidelines (I could not find any) and is so is the onus on the Airline to provide the water / fluid? I imagine that logistically and financially it would create problems but where do we as SLF stand ? I for one do not want to continually have to bother the CC by continually asking for some water. Bottom line is that trips to the toilet are inevitable.
Website “ Sometimes I honestly think the sites are designed in such a way that the User will give up trying and move on . Similarly the remotes for the In Flight entertainment can be confusing. The slot that they are stored in is positioned in such a way that anything but slight movement activates one or another button and causing the image to change or , even worse activate the call bell.
Going to the toilet without shoes on: In some cases gum boots would be more appropriate.
Much as it is difficult for CC from a SLF point of view : By the time I have got through customs (or Immigration – I am never sure which one it is) then waited while the person in front of me argues with Security about “why I have to take my belt / shoes off” and another who insists “that it’s only a small amount of fluid – why can’t I take it with me”. A smile as I hand over my boarding card to the CC and then I wait while some idiot blocks the aisle while trying to jam clearly oversized baggage in to the overhead locker and wondering how the heck he got it past Check In . Seated another person tries the same and keeps dropping it – on me . Then sits down only to be told he is in the wrong seat and then repeating the process all over again.

It can be trying for CC and SLF but I love flying and will continue to do so.

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Final 3 Greens
6th Sep 2009, 02:39
Re the call bell.

If travelling economy, I would very rarely use it, in fact I cannot remember the last time I did. It was probably in the days when I used to travel long haul in Y and wanted a drink of water in the middle of the night, but did not wish to disturb the sleeping pax in the aisle seat, by going to the galley.

In business or first, I'd be more likely to use it to ask for my tray to be cleared so that I could get my laptop out or get a top up of my drink. As far as I am concerned, I've paid a premium for the service and my expectations are higher.

Of course, I wouldn't call for the crew member as soon as I finished dinner, but after 5 minutes I'd be thinking about it. I'll also let the CC member know beforehand (e.g. when they serve an aperitif) that I'd like the tray clearing quickly so I can work and not to worry that I'll be offended by thinking that they are rushing me.

But having said that, it is probably a symptom of poor premium service delivery if I'm having to use it, most flights I don't touch it, because the responsible CC member is on top of the pax management and anticipating what the pax need, so when you look up to see if there is someone to clear the tray, they are there in a flash.

The best service is so smooth, it is hardly noticeable, takes a very good CC member to make it so. :ok:

The call bell certainly isn't a kids toy and it is not there to stress the crew by 'aggressive' use.

ArthurBorges
6th Sep 2009, 07:10
ObGraham: Here all this time I thought it was to provide them with a job. Proof of this: when we stop flying, CC get laid off!

Last time I saw the "I pay your salary" line was on a list of things not to say to a police officer.

It came right after "Why aren't you out catching real criminals?" or "If I request a cavity search, are you required to give me one?" and "Think of how many doughnuts you can buy with the $20 in my pocket!"

ArthurBorges
6th Sep 2009, 07:28
Apologies to those who took offense to my posting about the call bells.None needed, I find.

There's a Vietnamese folk saying that goes "When the cat steals a piece of meat, we chase it; when the tiger steals a pig, we all stare and do nothing."

Some folks can't tell the difference between the two felines and get mauled.

You merely keyboarded out in plain English the respective CC/SLF responsibilities with one firm yet gentle claw.

Good for you.

passy777
6th Sep 2009, 08:31
1. Do not try to stuff your 95 lb "carry on" bag into an overhead bin.


When you are comfortably seated in your aisle seat on boarding, how many of you have been clattered by a clown with a back pack who decides to turn around in a narrow aisle with said item still retained to their bodies? As some of these items have sturdy metal frames, they can inflict quite a bump! :ouch:

Then after 'dismounting' the aforementioned item of luggage from his/her back, the same person will create absolute chaos by assuming the overhead bins are some kind of miniature tardis and will push, shove, throw other items in the bin around with no consideration of their contents while at the same time, creating gridlock on the boarding aircraft.

Maybe safety helmets should be issued!

jetset lady
6th Sep 2009, 18:36
A few more, if I may be so bold.

Going on from the backpack issue, please do not wheel your out of control wheelie bag over my feet. It hurts!

The person next to you presses the call bell and when the crew member arrives, requests a coffee. You decide you actually quite fancy a coffee too. Please speak up now! Do not wait until the crew member returns with the cup of coffee for your travelling companion!

An odd one, this, but if you do insist on unfastening your seatbelt the minute the signs go off and staying that way for the duration of the flight, would you mind please tucking the seatbelt into the seat rather than leaving it hanging in the aisle. Depending on how they are adjusted, the seatbelt buckle is often at the exact height to crack us across the ankles as we walk past. Again, this hurts. This really hurts! :{

And finally, it's the end of the flight. The doors are open and disembarking has started. The cleaners/caterers/passengers, or at the end of a long day, the crew are chomping at the bit to get on/off the aircraft. But your adorable toddler has just learnt to walk. And you're very proud! Who wouldn't be? However, do NOT let them toddle down the aisle, holding everyone up and causing the crew to start chewing on nails!

Jsl

P.S. Before I go, a quick question. Time and time again, I see people pushing their wheelie bag down the aisle, usually with the associated steering problems, rather than pulling it as per the norm. Is there any reason for this? I even tried it myself, in case everyone knew something that I didn't, but wasn't overwhelmed with the result....

obgraham
6th Sep 2009, 23:26
Continuing on with my efforts to hold up the SLF side of this discussion:

Why is it that all the carts needed at the rear are stored at the front, and all the carts needed at the front are stored at the rear? We seem to have a parade of carts up and down the aisles as CC get ready for cabin service. Then there is always the situation where one "lead" has three serfs running to fetch trays, cups, ice to hand over to him/her (almost always "her"), requiring numerous traipses up and down the aisle. A certain flag carrier from Canada seems to be the worst offender here.

Some of us barely can jam our legs into the space alloted behind Joe The Immediately Reclined One in front of us. I know, that's a different argument: I'd gladly pay a little more for 2 inches more pitch, but evidently the rest of us will not. Nevertheless, we do at times intrude into the aisle space and expect to have to move.

Considerate CC slide their cart at a modest speed, announcing "mind your elbow" or some such. Too many heft that baby from rear to front like they're practicing the evacuation, oblivious to the trail of dislocated elbows and cracked metatarsals left behind.

Dot Product
7th Sep 2009, 03:10
With the call bell, I think your definitely overstating that its an emergency button. I rarely fly commercially except for international flights, I prefer to do the flying myself even if it takes twice as long, but if I want a drink or similar I will use the call button. I don't expect you to come running, but next time your coming down the isle and notice it I can ask you nicely for what I want.

In my experience in aviation anything that is truly an emergency button is typically red and placarded as emergency use only, I see neither on the call buttons.

Papa Sierra
7th Sep 2009, 04:47
I never use the call buttons as I feel it harkens back to the days when people used to "click" their fingers in the direction of waiters in restaurants, (do they still do that?). Instead I prefer to go to the galley and ask for what I want, it also serves as an excuse to stretch my legs. However I can see that the call button can be a god send for those less able to move freely ie. Families with young children, pax seated in the middle of sleeping fellow pax, older less mobile pax etc. I do like to have an aisle seat as I'm prepared to take the odd trolley buffeting whilst having the option to get up when I want without having to clamber over my fellow travellers, especially in the unlikely event of an emergency evacuation!! My pet hate whilst flying on long sectors are pax in the seat behind mine who can't get out of their own seat without pulling themselves up on the back of mine, I do enjoy a glass of red wine inflight but I prefer to drink it not wear it!!

Final 3 Greens
7th Sep 2009, 04:52
never use the call buttons as I feel it harkens back to the days when people used to "click" their fingers in the direction of waiters in restaurants, (do they still do that?).

To get immediate attention, you have to simultaneously shout 'Garçon' in a loud voice. ;)

Final 3 Greens
7th Sep 2009, 05:05
There is no excuse for being anything but police to cabin Crew.

W O W :eek:

Babaleka
7th Sep 2009, 06:51
"There is no excuse for being anything but police to cabin Crew."

An unfortunate typo with all sorts of implications - and I was particularly careful to read and edit before submitting.

Should have read .... "but polite to cabin crew".

No doubt one or two more comments will follow - Hard hat now firmly placed on head

Final 3 Greens
7th Sep 2009, 06:58
Babaleka

It was an obvious typo, I'm just teasing and I'm sure anyone who noticed had a laugh.

However, if the Daily Mail picks up on it, they might take the idea seriously :}

VS-LHRCSA
7th Sep 2009, 07:08
obgraham

I can only speak for BA on your question regarding trollies in different galleys. There may be limited space say in a J class galley and sometimes trollies for the second service are kept in another galley where there may be an abundance of space. What usually happens is, after the first service is completed, you would take down the used trollies and bring up the new ones ready for the second service. More often than not, this is done after lights out, which can be tricky, especially if the trolley has been in the chiller for a hours and you are trying not to wake people.

Dot Product

Some airlines do indeed use the call bell for emergencies as a subtle way to attract attention from your colleagues. From a passenger point of view, they may use it to attract attention because of a serious issue, eg: chest pains, while some may use it because they don't wish to leave their seat to have an ad-hoc drink. As a crew member, you're on your own down the back and two call bells go off, you have no way of knowing who needs your help most until you get to the passenger. Personally, I believe they should be placarded for emergency use only.

As F3G says, in a good premium cabin, you should never need use it because crew will always maintain a subtle presence in the cabin (I know this doesn't always happen). In an economy cabin, wherever possible, passengers should be encouraged to visit the galley for their needs outside of service times. This will enable to crew to better serve the cabin as a whole instead of the vocal one or two who take up disproportionate amount of the cabin crew's time, which is not fair to the rest of the cabin.

smudgiebottom
7th Sep 2009, 07:29
In an economy cabin, wherever possible, passengers should be encouraged to visit the galley for their needs outside of service times. This will enable to crew to better serve the cabin as a whole instead of the vocal one or two who take up disproportionate amount of the cabin crew's time, which is not fair to the rest of the cabin.


Whilst I tend to agree with this statement as it does make logical sense, SLF are NOT mind-readers, and until something is communicated to them to this end, nothing is going to change.

As a quiet non-call-bell pressing pax, I would suggest that if CC wish pax to behave in this manner with the call-bell, then inform them, otherwise, it will forever be known as a "call-bell" where you can receive additional service from your seat; and so the 5% of pax that are abusers of that priviledge will continue. :*

Matt

passy777
7th Sep 2009, 08:36
And here's another one that must annoy the hell out of CC.

Why do some pax decide to use the toilet during meal times when the aisle will invariably be blocked by the food/drink cart?

A single aisle cabin compounds this problem.

I feel sorry for the poor CC who halfway through the meal service and located mid aisle has to lug the cart to an area that will allow the pax to get past - then have to repeat the procedure when the pax has completed their ablutions.

OK, I appreciate that all of us can get 'caught short' at times, but I am sure that many of us can retain the contents of our bladders until the aisle is clear.

VS-LHRCSA
7th Sep 2009, 09:13
Fair point, smudgiebottom, which is why I said in my post, that I'd like them to be placarded. I'd also like to see it mentioned during the safety brief.

Then again, where do we draw the line at what needs to be instructed and what we can put down to basic manners. I shouldn't have to tell passengers not to poke me in the belly, buttocks or crotch (believe me, it happens) but it seems I do. Going by other posts on here, I'm not the only one. Do we need signs to tell pax not to put full diapers in the seat pocket - or even the overhead lockers? Do we need signs and PAs to tell pax not to stand their children on the tray table? Where does it end?

Just so I'm not being biased. Passengers shouldn't have to tell crew to keep it down in the galleys on night flights. It's a basic courtesy and one of my buttons. Anyone who has sat in 4A on one our 777 IGWs knows what I am talking about.

Final 3 Greens
7th Sep 2009, 09:48
Anyone who has sat in 4A on one our 777 IGWs knows what I am talking about.

Never been in 4A, but have been in 4E and appreciate your courtesy.

Mr Quite Happy
8th Sep 2009, 06:22
I concur pretty much with everything above.

Last Saturday I flew LGW-ZRH. Midday I arrived at security and received a “good afternoon” from the ‘girl that puts things on trays for the scanner’ and I replied with a cheery (I am quite happy!) “good afternoon, how are you?” to which she replied “that’s the first one I’ve had today! I am better now thanks”.

So I guess we can all remember to be not just nice to CC, but also EE (Everyone Else).

Which includes my special gripe, bloody arrogant tosspot SLF.

As a regular traveller I am regularly sat in front of tosspot SLF who can’t get out of their seats with out pulling mine backwards, who take a window seat on an overnight flight but then drink a bladder full and have to visit the bathrooms 4 times in the night. People with oversize carry-on luggage (why don’t airlines stop this?) and my number 1 hate, people that just drop their seats back into your lap without so much of a check to see that you are not sitting with a 2 year old on your lap, or a lap top or a cup of coffee. IIRC, Aer Lingus and EasyJet have seats that don’t drop back – bliss.

Lastly, the gold card/top tier card carrying tossers that push in at the front of all the queues. I have one too guys and probably do half a dozen people standing around us so WTF do you think you are doing pushing in front of all of us?

CC, compared to these arseholes, are a welcome relief. I’ve never had a problem. FWIW BA are the best IME, but as a general rule, Brit cabin crew leave the other European nationalities far behind. But maybe, as a Brit, I am looking for ‘politeness indicators’ and get the most from other Brits, Germans from Germans, Belgians from Belgians etc. But I don’t think so.

Final 3 Greens
8th Sep 2009, 07:12
Mr Quite Happy

But maybe, as a Brit, I am looking for ‘politeness indicators’ and get the most from other Brits, Germans from Germans, Belgians from Belgians etc. But I don’t think so.

I consider myself mainly British in cultural terms (born there), but having lived in Malta for quite a few years, some of that rubs off as well.

As well as acknowledging that 'polite' may look different in different cultures (you are right IMO) have you considered that cultural differences may also mean that 'politness' is more valued in Britain than in other countries and that other cultures may value other attributes more highly?

Personally, I prefer someone to be open, friendly and direct.

The acid test is the question from wife to husband 'does my bum look big in this?'

The range of responses will vary considerably and of course it is not all a consequence of culture.

Nonetheless, I do perceive some quite obvious differences between Northern Europe and Southern Europe.

Let me say that I agree starting with a smile and warm greeting is a good idea universally, as your quoted exchange demonstrates.

It is sad that the response from the other person is sometimes to ignore it, but hey ho - at lest you found someone who appreciated your courteous approach.

Lastly, the gold card/top tier card carrying tossers that push in at the front of all the queues

Slight vaariation on this theme, if you ever have to travel through the old terminals at cairo, whe it is busy, slip the porter 5 egyptian pounds (about 60p) and he will lead you straight to the front of the queues to pre-scan you luggage before check in.

Pushing in? Absolutely, but that's the way they do things.

Dot Product
8th Sep 2009, 12:38
Just a couple of points and questions from reading the replies, as I previously noted I very rarely fly commercially so this is just genuine interest.

On the mind reading thing, if CC would like call bells to be used as more of an emergency button than service button, do they have the authority to include it in the passenger brief, or is that specified by the airline. As a GA pilot I can obviously brief my passengers how I like, in the interests of safety and comfort I always cover the basics, but I have discretion to add things to the brief as I feel necessary - do commercial crews have that liberty?

I guess i'm thinking that when I have used call bells cabin crew never came running as if it was an emergency, nor mentioned that it would be appreciated if I came to the galley instead (I personally thought the galley was off-limits unless crew). I'm a pretty easy going person, and don't mind abiding reasonable requests from people to make their life easier.

I don't want to to open the can of worms that 'we pay your wages' as I, like you, feel it's very derogatory, but unless flying an el-cheapo airline where you save on $ because of the lack of service, some level of service is expected, what do you guys n gals who work as CC see that level of service to be for cattle class?

And finally, things seem to differ drastically between flights, let alone airlines, for example some Qantas flights I have been on had free beer/wine and purchased spirits, others you paid for the lot, is this common, as to my memory the flights were of similar cost and duration yet the service differed quite drastically.

Ancient Observer
8th Sep 2009, 15:00
I don't think I've ever used the "I pay your wages" comment to anyone. I often feel like it with respect to the BBC, but that's another story.

However, it makes me think ............Just exactly what is wrong with saying "I pay your wages" ???

We are Customers, NOT SLF. If you go over to the BA CC thread, you'll realise that some of the BA CC - but not all, and GG fights a great battle for common sense - could not care less about their customers.

Maybe more of them should realise that "I pay your wages".

(My next 2 long haul flights are now with Virgin rather than BA due to CC attitudes)

?????

jetset lady
8th Sep 2009, 18:15
However, it makes me think ............Just exactly what is wrong with saying "I pay your wages" ???



What's wrong with it? It is horribly arrogant, that's what's wrong with it! You are basically saying.."I have paid for you....you are here to serve me."

Yes, indirectly, you may have contributed towards my wages, which I am grateful for, along with a lot of other people who have also contributed, but you certainly haven't "paid my wages". There's a difference, you know.

Final 3 Greens
8th Sep 2009, 19:00
Next time I fly BA, I am going to email them to say that I expect my ticket fare to pay towards the wages of Glamgirl and Jetset Lady, because they are both very class acts ;)

Of course, I'll probably never fly with you both, but at least I'll have the satisfaction of knowing my 2 bob is going to a good home :D

And I should include VS-LHRCSA, who is also cool.

Sorry frontcheck, don''t get to fly Midland.

VS-LHRCSA
8th Sep 2009, 21:20
Cheers F3G. Right now, I'm on unpaid leave to do my masters, so the Aussie government is paying my wages right now, lol

The whole 'paying your wages' thing might be a fair point but is just a completely arrogant thing to say. Looking at the bigger picture, don't we all pay each others wage in some way? A good example is Barclay's Bank. When I was in customer relations part of my job was dealing with complaints by Barclay's employees. Some complaints were valid, some not. One stood out - a woman complaining that there was no bacon in the FIRST lounge - on the morning of the T5 opening. Beggars belief! As a Barclay's customer, I was thinking is this why my fees are so high, so you can fly around the world in FIRST?

As for service levels in economy. The bar was set by airlines pretty high in the 60s when economy class really took hold. Back then, though, fare levels where higher and crew compliments were larger. Fares are now lower (especially compared to income) and airlines that have to pay their way (and not survive on government handouts or hide behind Chapter 11) have had to lower crew levels.

Airlines are having to carefully balance passenger service expectations with increasingly less and less resources AND compete with state owned incumbents that can afford greater numbers of crew and not have to turn a profit.

Personally, I believe that everyone, regardless of what they have paid, should be treated with respect as a customer and fellow human being on the planet. This respect however is a two way interaction that relies on basic courtesy.

Dot Product, to address your points. It generally seen as okay to come to the galley entrance and engage the crew once the service is over and no, as crew we don't have the power to change the passenger brief. In earlier posts, I was saying that that is what I would like to happen.

ArthurBorges
9th Sep 2009, 04:23
It helps interaction with anyone if you ask yourself that question before opening your mouth.

The first issue with air crew is that their biological clocks may be out of whack because of time zones. For female crew, that includes menstrual cycles. Second, jobs that keep folks away from family correlate with high divorce rates: the human body responds to divorce the same way it responds to death in the family. The airline industry is no exception. Sure, people ought to leave personal problems at home and work problems at the office, but most folks can do that only somewhat. Third, there may be personality clashes between crew members. Fourth, if there's been an accident recently, that accident is going to be at the back of your mind when you board, particularly if it's your airline or aircraft type. Fifth, as noted, there is pressure to cut staff numbers, wages and benefits, which tends to generate resentment in staff. Now throw in the odd touchie-feelie passenger plus one or two more with an intuitive knack for inconveniencing CC and neighbours.

And then of course there are the functional duties of the job itself.

What have I missed?



The basic rule in economy class is to keep a very low profile, occupy the smallest possible footprint and obey any instructions like a picture-perfect schoolchild with clean fingernails and neatly combed hair. A second tip is to travel with just a shapeless cloth bag containing around 7kg. of necessities and never check in a thing: it won't hurt anyone if it falls out of overhead stowage and you can sail straight past the baggage carousels to your bus or taxi. Happy Skies!

Ancient Observer
9th Sep 2009, 13:28
Jetset

I did say that I had never used the phrase.......!!!

I would happily support F3G's comments about BA. It is nice to have some of the sensible folk posting on here!
I've also travelled enough to see some of the morons and arrogant pillocks that CC have to deal with, so I have to say I do not envy you your jobs. (Except for the antique CSDs on long haul who seem to get lots of money for very little work when they are at work, and who work about 1/3 the time that I used to work)

In the end, in the UK, the only people that pay the wages of anyone in Aviation are the customers. That's not arrogant, it is just fact. When I moved in to Aviation some years ago, (I've now retired), I was surprised how few people in the sector grasped that fact. Maybe a re-launch of PPF for everyone would help.

rgbrock1
9th Sep 2009, 16:50
Oh, and one other rule I forgot which should be applied to all male passengers:

1. Please don't pee on the toilet seat. It really is not at all that difficult to raise the seat before doing so.

VS-LHRCSA
9th Sep 2009, 21:21
and FLUSH for fecks sake!

Abusing_the_sky
9th Sep 2009, 23:11
and FLUSH for fecks sake! Flush? FLUSH!?!?

How very dare you VS, the FLUSH button is there to be ignored by some pax!:} You know it, i know it, drama of our lives... The big (blue in our a/c's) button is there as decoration, completely ignored....
Dear pax, you wouldn't do that in your own house, so why do it on an airliner???

As for the "i pay your wages" debate. How many times before did we discussed it on here? (or on Galley.FM)

It is not a question of "i pay your wages". As demonstrated before, if one uses the First Class train, one pays for the Train Attendants' wages. If one takes the bus, one pays for the bus drivers' wages. If one goes to cinema, one pays for the cinema attendants (is that how you call it, i don't know) wages. For fecks sake, if one goes to the loo in Central London, one pays for the Toilet Attendants (is that what you call the job, i don't know...) wages!

Get a grip will you! It's a vicious circle and all of us are involved in it! It's like meself going in a clothes shop, pick every single most expensive piece of clothing on the rails and go to the shop assistant: "You're breathing too loud. That wasn't on the shop's "Terms and Conditions". Stop breathing, remember who pays your wages...

Are you serious???
There are a lot, a LOT of things i simply close my eyes to and let them go over me head, but this "i pay your wages" business has to be the most annoying, excruciating thing i ever had to put up with. Last time a pax said that to me (after a very long argument on his part), luckily for me we were still on the ground, he got offloaded no questions asked, and thank you very much, you won't be flying this airline ever again. Bye bye, have a nice day
:ugh:


Rgds,
ATS

Ancient Observer
10th Sep 2009, 11:10
I guess that we differ.

As I've said before, I've never said that phrase to anyone.

When I worked both in Fast Moving Consumer Goods, and in Parcel Transportation, it was Perfectly OK for Customers to point out that they paid your wages.

In some sectors it is NORMAL for the customer to remind the supplier who pays their wages.

One big buyer from a UK retail chain reminded me each time we met! I didn't mind one bit, as it was completely true..........as it is true in Aviation

Other than personal annoyance, I'm still unclear why it is "forbidden" by FAs/CC.
I can understand it if the person saying it is a complete plonker, drunk, or abusive. Beyond that, it strikes me that it is arrogant of an FA/CCA to get so annoyed by it. As to offloading, I suspect that there must have been lots more to it than just "I pay your wages".

jetset lady
10th Sep 2009, 11:50
I did say that I had never used the phrase.......!!!



You did indeed say that it wasn't a phrase that you'd used, but you did also ask what was wrong with it. I replied to that question.

The problem is, when used in the context of a commercial airline flight, such a comment by one individual passenger to one individual crew member, is invariably intended to belittle that crew member. And in that context, it is also incorrect.

Jsl

P.S. F3G...could you possibly make that 2.50? One day.... ;)

Final 3 Greens
10th Sep 2009, 13:20
F3G...could you possibly make that 2.50?

As irt happens, I've just booked a return in J to RUH, so that should provide a few quid - I'll see what I can do ;)

Mr Quite Happy
10th Sep 2009, 17:56
The problem is, when used in the context of a commercial airline flight, such a comment by one individual passenger to one individual crew member, is invariably intended to belittle that crew member. And in that context, it is also incorrect.

JSL
I think I would like to buy you a drink!

The correct response I would imagine to "I pay your wages" is "I didn't realise we had any shareholders on the flight Sir/Ma'am. Shall I inform the passengers that you are here, I'm sure some of our customers would like to talk to you too"

MidlandDeltic
10th Sep 2009, 18:22
But shareholders don't pay your wages - they lend money to the company in expectation of a return. They therefore take money out, rather than put it in! Granted, dealing with the public is not easy, but at the end of the day the money they pay (on non-PSO routes) IS the only reason for operating the service, and no service does mean no CC (or pilots, groundstaff, or CEO!) That does not condone or excuse poor behaviour from pax of course.

Going back to call buttons, I have never used one - but then I have generally been on short sectors with our two indigenous LCCs, so there is little need. On FR, it seems their main use is be the CC to attract each others attention.

On luggage, the sooner airlines in Europe rigidly enforce cabin bag size the better - and I applaud FR's approach on this. On EI, it has not been such a problem as on my flights with them load factor has been less than 50% so there has been plenty of spare space.

Sean

Rollingthunder
10th Sep 2009, 20:11
Sit down and shut up.

After 36,000 feet, ask for two Scotches.

VS-LHRCSA
10th Sep 2009, 21:05
Ancient Observer

I think you've got me wrong. It's not just cabin crew. The 'I pay your wages' remark is a horrible thing to say to anyone, regardless of their profession. You have to look at what is behind the remark. It is usually said by a customer who wants to get their own way and feels the only way to do this is to belittle the company representative who is probably just doing their job. This could be in the terminal, in-flight, at Sainsburys, at a hotel reception, at the bank, etc.

More often that not, the remark is spat by the type of customer who has little 'power' in their own lives and is enjoying having some kind of power over another. Put it this way, no one has ever said it to me in FIRST but I copped it a lot back in my charter days on the Saturday morning PMI.

west lakes
10th Sep 2009, 21:55
Just drifting a bit, we often get same but as the implied complaint about the cost of electricity "Well we pay you enough in our electricity bills"
Though in our case it is usually through ignorance of how the electricity industry works in my part of the UK.
The usual answer I give is to point out that my employer has never sent an electricity bill to anyone! All we do is deliver it to their house/buisness, gets some interesting results!

Final 3 Greens
11th Sep 2009, 06:19
Interesting point about "I pay your "wages"

I grew up in the 1960s/early 70s and do not recall anyone ever saying such things, it would have been considered rude.

On the other hand, people in service jobs tended to show more respect and courtesy to the customers, than is often the case these days, in the UK.

jetset lady
11th Sep 2009, 07:03
Sit down and shut up.

After 36,000 feet, ask for two Scotches.


Two Scotches? You want two? Don't you know there's a recession on? :eek:

Ancient Observer
11th Sep 2009, 11:53
This bit, (Below), I understand fully. If the comment is about belittling someone, then it is out of order.

Having seen some of the folk that FA/CC put up with, that bit I understand.

What I do object to is the idea that prevails on some flights that the customers are only there to get in the way of CC doing their job. That attitude can be easily caused by poor leadership.

"The problem is, when used in the context of a commercial airline flight, such a comment by one individual passenger to one individual crew member, is invariably intended to belittle that crew member. And in that context, it is also incorrect."

Rollingthunder
11th Sep 2009, 18:18
Originally Posted by Rollingthunder
Sit down and shut up.

After 36,000 feet, ask for two Scotches.

Two Scotches? You want two? Don't you know there's a recession on?

Think I've met you.

Rusland 17
11th Sep 2009, 18:39
Two Scotches? You want two? Don't you know there's a recession on? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gifIn my recent experience, BA cabin crew are more than happy to give more than one alcoholic drink at a time if the passenger requests it, and they show no sign of reluctance or resentment at doing so. Though I guess that the fact that we passengers have generally paid around £200 for a 40-minute flight (in economy) makes it less of an issue than on a flight where most passengers have paid a rock-bottom fare.

Rollingthunder
11th Sep 2009, 20:01
Not sure about that, pays $ 112.00 for 5,000 or 10,000 mile trip. Flashes ID card.

Sometimes in Observer's seat.

ThreadBaron
11th Sep 2009, 20:02
In a similar vein, whilst working at 'the most prestigious girls' day school', (their description) I asked a young lady to remove here feet from the furniture. Here response was, 'Why? My parents pay your wages.', to which I replied,' Yes, they do, and I am here to protect that investment. Now please take your feet from the furniture!' And, by God, she did!!

jetset lady
11th Sep 2009, 21:26
In my recent experience, BA cabin crew are more than happy to give more than one alcoholic drink at a time if the passenger requests it, and they show no sign of reluctance or resentment at doing so. Though I guess that the fact that we passengers have generally paid around £200 for a 40-minute flight (in economy) makes it less of an issue than on a flight where most passengers have paid a rock-bottom fare.

I'm sorry, Rusland, but in this time of severe credit crunching, by the time I've deducted my wages from your £200.00, you only have enough credit left for one scotch and two ginger ales....only I think we took the ginger ale off...or did we, in fact, put it back on....but then again, that might have been the apple juice....? :confused:

Anyway, as I was saying, you only have enough credit for one scotch and two glasses of water! ;)

Shack37
11th Sep 2009, 21:35
Everybody's wages are paid by somebody.

As for the whisky, don't mind who pays for mine:E

Rusland 17
11th Sep 2009, 22:54
I'm sorry, Rusland, but in this time of severe credit crunching, by the time I've deducted my wages from your £200.00, you only have enough credit left for one scotch and two ginger ales....only I think we took the ginger ale off...or did we, in fact, put it back on....but then again, that might have been the apple juice....? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gifBut at a typical load of 30-40 people, and just two cabin crew, that's a lot of cash left over for scotch and ginger ales...

I don't really think it is necessary to serve refreshments of any sort on a flight that lasts under 40 minutes - I sometimes spend longer than that on the bus to work, and no-one comes round offering us G&Ts, sandwiches and Blue Riband bars.

PAXboy
12th Sep 2009, 00:21
I sometimes spend longer than that on the bus to work, and no-one comes round offering us G&Ts, sandwiches and Blue Riband bars.Ah, the advantages of working from home ... are exactly the same disadvantages.The kitchen, the kettle and a packet of biscuits is all too close to hand at any moment of the working day. :=