View Full Version : Two JAR PPLs ?
pembroke
2nd Sep 2009, 16:44
I wonder if anyone can help?
I have a student PPL who wishes to take a UK IMC rating. He has a French PPL and after some paperwork re verification etc from the DGAC, and a payment to the CAA; he has been advised that the JAR(UK) PPL will be issued. ( He needs the UK licence to include the UK specific rating).
However he must surrender his French (JAR)PPL. This seems strange but according to the CAA, it is not possible to hold two eqivalent JAR licences, simultaneously.
For what it's worth,I hold both a JAR and UK ATPL, and have an old FAA "piggyback". Have you encountered this before either as an instructor or a PPL coming to fly in the UK?
Is it a French National PPL i.e. issued before JAR-FCL started?
If it is then there is no requirement to give it up.
If however, it was issued after JAR-FCL happened in France then the requirement to surrender is normal.
The rule is that you can only hold 1 JAR licence and 1 JAR Medical. To keep the French licence all that the person has to do is show that it is not a JAR-FCL licence.
What does it say on the licence?
Whopity
3rd Sep 2009, 13:25
This used to be clearly stated in JAR-FCL1 however, I have scoured AL7 and can't find it!
BillieBob
3rd Sep 2009, 15:44
Still there - JAR-FCL 1.065(e)
pembroke
3rd Sep 2009, 16:34
Have checked the JAR-FCL reference and will pass on the info. Many thanks to the above
Whopity
3rd Sep 2009, 19:18
Still there - JAR-FCL 1.065(e)Thanks for that, unchanged!
S-Works
4th Sep 2009, 08:13
Is it that you can't hold 2 JAR licences or two at the same level?
Whopity
4th Sep 2009, 11:06
You cannot hold two JAA licenses (Aeroplane) or (Helicopter) at any level:
(e) An applicant shall hold only one JAR–
FCL licence (aeroplane) and only one medical
certificate at any time.
But you can hold a JAA and a National licence at the same time and Aeroplane and Helicopter licences at the same time.
S-Works
4th Sep 2009, 11:09
What would someone do to merge two JAR FCL licences into one?
Whopity
4th Sep 2009, 11:12
Normally the Authority will withdraw the lower level licence (PPL) on the issue of a professional licence, which automatically includes the lower level privileges.
S-Works
4th Sep 2009, 11:14
I was referring to the situation where someone has a JAR FCL licence in more than one state?
Should not happen unless there was "an error" on the paperwork.
The ability to (easily) get two licenses from different authorities is prevented by the "State of Licence Issue" requirements.
The only ways that I can think of is to either;
1. Complete PPL course, medical, LST and have JAR-FCL licence issued in country A and then do the course, medical and LST again in country B without ever mentioning country A.
Of course to do that one would have to make a false logbook and a false declaration on the medical questionaire.
2. Use the procedure to have a JAR-FCL licence issued on the basis of an ICAO licence in two different countries. Again this requires a false declaration on the paperwork and false logbook entries.
3. The Authorities make a mistake.
S-Works
4th Sep 2009, 12:24
Or option 4, hold a full national licence in a country that was not JAA and then it becomes JAA and automatically upgrades all licences to FCL ones. Bit like doing a PPL in the UK and doing one in the USA and the USA suddenly becoming stupid enough to become FCL compliant. You end up with 2 FCL licences.
and automatically upgrades all licences to FCL ones
Where did that happen?
Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL1.005 referrs
A pilot licence issued by a JAA Member State in accordance with the national requirements of that State may be replaced by a JAR–FCL licence subject, where applicable, to conditions.
This is ammendment 7.
I think that previously, a holder of the Old UK PPL (for life national version) could obtain a JAR-FCL licence without having to surrender the PPL. Clearly that is no longer the situation.
Makes sense.
Whopity
4th Sep 2009, 20:28
hold a full national licence in a country that was not JAA and then it becomes JAA and automatically upgrades all licences to FCL ones.Unless you live there for more than 185 days a year (JAR-FCL 1.070) then the country in which you reside should be the State that administers the JAA licence, any foreign licence should be transferred to that State whereupon they will withdraw the lesser licence.http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1136FF.pdf
They will still issue a JAA licence to the holder of a UK National PPL or a UK Professional licence without withdrawing any licences. I hold all 3.
Residence is not the only criteria when it comes to "state of licence issue".
A resident of say France working for a UK company can have the UK as state of licence issue.
Some airlines require state of licence issue to be the same as where the airline is based.
S-Works
5th Sep 2009, 18:22
Indeed. So a country that required the crew flying aircraft of that state to hold a national licence. If that country became FCL compliant and upgraded the crew licences then you could end up with 2.
The CAA answered the question, you choose the state most applicable and that one then sends JAR 155 form to the other to confirm details. Once that is done the two licences are merged together under the one state and the other withdrawn. This is done to ensure ratings such as type ratings or instructor ratings are not lost.
A rare occurance but one that can happen.
CirrusF
7th Sep 2009, 11:19
This seems strange but according to the CAA, it is not possible to hold two eqivalent JAR licences, simultaneously.
I have a French JAR ATPL, and a UK JAR PPL, both in-date and valid.
redbar1
7th Sep 2009, 16:29
Cirrus,
I have a French JAR ATPL, and a UK JAR PPL, both in-date and valid
Maybe you have. But that does not make it any more legal.
Cheers,
Redbar1
CirrusF
7th Sep 2009, 18:21
Maybe you have. But that does not make it any more legal.
It is not "illegal" - if so, under which law might I be prosecuted?
It may be contrary to JAR regulations - but there are no sanctions for holding both.
Whopity
7th Sep 2009, 18:58
Contrary to JAR-FCL but as you say, that is not in contravention of any law in the UK or the EU at the moment.
redbar1
7th Sep 2009, 19:34
Wrong.
JAR-FCL has been implemented into national regulations by all recognised member states. One condition to be met before mutual recognition of a member state was to prove the implementation of JAR-FCL into national regulations of said state.
Ergo: Any breach of a regulation in JAR-FCL is per se a breach against national regulations of the appliccable member state.
Did you think that mutual recognition of your licenses came as a free lunch??:ok:
Cheers,
Redbar1
Whopity
8th Sep 2009, 08:03
NO RIGHT!
JAR-FCL has been implemented into national regulations by all recognised member states.In the UK, only specific parts of JAR-FCL have been incorporated into UK Law. Those specific parts are annotated in the UK Air Navigation Order (That is the Law) The majority of JAR-FCL has no legal status whatsoever. As I stated, there is nothing in UK law preventing a person from holding two JAA licences. If they do, then it is the issuing Authority that has failed to comply with the spirit of the JAA, by issuing a second licence, it is not the holders responsibility. I am aware that some States have incorporated all of JAR-FCL into their law but the UK did not.
I have a French JAR ATPL, and a UK JAR PPL, both in-date and valid.
Perhaps you could let us know the sequence of gaining licenses that caused you to end up in this situation.
Both may be in date but I don't think that both are valid.
If I was looking at your documentation, the quickest way to answer that question is to ask you to take out your most recent medical and read the licence number from that medical. That licence is the only one that you can use because that is the only one with a valid medical.
Whopity
8th Sep 2009, 13:40
A UK issued medical certificate only carries a CAA Reference number. All such numbers originated in the CAA medical dept. Whilst the same number normally appears on all CAA issued licences, it can be perfectly valid with a licence bearing another number such as an old CAA 5 figure number. Even with a French ATPL, if the JAA medical certificate was obtained in the UK, and you have a CAA medical reference number, that number could appear on the medical certificate.
S-Works
8th Sep 2009, 14:13
Yep, as does mine. I have my JAA Class 1 done in the UK but my primary licence is outside the UK.
redbar1
8th Sep 2009, 21:24
Hi Whopity:
In the UK, only specific parts of JAR-FCL have been incorporated into UK Law. Those specific parts are annotated in the UK Air Navigation Order (That is the Law) The majority of JAR-FCL has no legal status whatsoever.
..and I am left to wonder how on earth you UK guys got away with that one?:mad::=
Anyway, thanks for the info. Will look into it, just curious.:)
Cheers,
Redbar1
Have a read of the ANO;
Requirement for a medical certificate
32 (1) This article applies to any licence granted under article 27, other than a National
Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) or a Flight Radiotelephony Operator's Licence.
(2) The holder of a licence to which this article applies is not entitled to perform any of
the functions to which his licence relates unless it includes an appropriate valid
medical certificate issued under paragraph (4).
(3) Every applicant for or holder of a licence to which this article applies must, whenever
the CAA requires, submit himself to medical examination by a person approved by the
CAA, either generally or in a particular case or class of cases, who must make a report
to the CAA in such form as the CAA may require.
(4) On the basis of such medical examination, the CAA or any person approved by it as
competent to do so may issue a medical certificate subject to such conditions as it or
he thinks fit to the effect that it or he has assessed the holder of the licence as
meeting the requirements specified by the CAA in respect of the certificate.
(5) A medical certificate will, without prejudice to article 32B(3), be valid for such period as
is specified in the certificate.
(6) A medical certificate is deemed to form part of the licence.
Most countries have very similar requirements.
When one needs to renew a medical one can do it with any appropriately approved JAR-AME. You are legally required to answer all the questions posed on the form correctly and fully. Those questions include details of licences held and number.
The licence number is very important becasue the AME must know which Authority they are doing the medical for and where to send the report.
As soon as the medical is completed all previous medicals (from any JAR country) are void. Note that I did not say passed. This is because if you fail the medical it makes no matter that you have a medical from another authority, it is cancelled at that point.
Finally, slipping a medical certificate into the pocket of a licence does not make that medical "included in the licence" as per 32(2) of the ANO. Every JAR country requires that only that Authority or people authorised by that Authority can include something in a licence. Anything included in a licence will have the licence number on it.
So if through some admin error or some other method one ended up with two JAR-FCL licenses it is safe to say that only one would be valid - usually the higher licence but if the medical fails to match, it could be the lower one.
It is possible to have more than one licence number included on a JAR medical. I have a national licence and a JAR licence. The numbers are not the same so I have both numbers put on the medical and get two copies. I am regularly reminded that I can only have one JAR licence but when I show that the second one is a national licence there is no problem.
Finally, leaving aside the medical issue, from a practical point of view it makes no difference provided that the pilot does not try to use the situation to fly illegally - using instrument rating in licence B when they have failed a renewal test for the IR in licence A.
If people want to pay the 5 yearly fee twice then let them. There is nothing to be gained.
Whopity
9th Sep 2009, 07:30
As soon as the medical is completed all previous medicals (from any JAR country) are void.But the ANO says:
(5) A medical certificate will, without prejudice to article 32B(3), be valid for such period as is specified in the certificate.A bit of a contradiction! So a Class 1 is still valid as a Class 2 until the expiry date!
Anything included in a licence will have the licence number on it.
Not according to Article 32
(2) The holder of a licence to which this article applies is not entitled to perform any of the functions to which his licence relates unless it includes an appropriate valid medical certificate issued under paragraph (4).
Take out a current JAR-FCL medical certificate and have a look at it.
I State of Licence Issue
This is the State that has issued the JAR-FCL licence to which the medical relates. Only one State can be entered.
III Licence Number
This is the Licence number of the JAR-FCL Licence that is issued by the above State. You can have other National Licence numbers included if you want.
Then have a look at the following list on the medical;
Previous Medical Examination Date
Expiry Date of Previous certificate for single pilot air transport operations
Expiry Date of Previous certificate for other commercial operations
Expiry date of previous certificate for Class 2 privileges
Expiry Date of This certificate for single pilot air transport operations
Expiry Date of This certificate for other commercial operations
Expiry Date of This certificate for Class 2 privileges.
When you go for a medical you are required to provide your current (or previous) medical certificate.
At the end of the medical if you are refused a new certificate then the previous certificate is no linger valid.
At the end of the medical if you get a new certifcate then the dates in the new certificate apply even if they are more restrictive than the old certificate.
If a limitation is entered at item XIII for example VDL, then that applies from the date of the medical and one can not claim that the previous medical certificate with no VDL limitation was still valid for class 2 and that is why you don't have the spectacles when you are ramp checked.
I believe that through admin error on the part of an Authority (ie no error or intentional action on the part of the pilot) one could have possibly ended up with two pieces of paper which are JAR-FCL licences. Someone may even be foolish enough to pay two separate Authorities to as they mistakenly see it - keep both valid.
However, The details on the medical have to match the licence. In particular Item I of the Licene and Item I of the Medical have to match as do Item III of both medical and licence.
The only way to get two medicals would be through deception - not telling the truth at the medical examination when asked. That makes both medicals invalid.
I would recomend that anyone finding themselves with two JAR-FCL licenses regularise their situation one way or the other. After all since to get a JAR licence one has to demonstrate knowledge of JAR-FCL they can't claim that they were not aware of the fact that only one JAR-FCL licence can be held.
S-Works
10th Sep 2009, 10:32
Taking aside the issue of holding two FCL licences. I have spoken to the CAA Medical department this morning and have had it confirmed that the number that goes on the medical is your CAA medical reference number. You can in fact have a medical without holding any type of licence!! It just happens that when you get a licence the medical reference number also becomes your personnel reference number should you have the licence issued in the same state.
They told me that it works this way as AME's are registered with the national authority, so UK AME's are registered with the UK CAA but can issue a JAA FCL3 Compliant Medical and the records are kept by the UK CAA. Other JAA states will accept a UK JAA FCL3 compliant medical to go with their licences. It is therefore perfectly possible and in fact quite common for a medical to carry a different number to the licence.
It is also common practice for non FCL compliant JAA countries to accept FCL3 compliant medicals from other states.
They also told me that you can have as many medicals as you want if you are daft enough to pay for them, however if you misrepresent the facts on any of those medicals you will be prosecuted.
I am sure there are ways of trying to cheat the system as it requires honesty from those participating.
I would recomend that anyone finding themselves with two JAR-FCL licenses regularise their situation one way or the other.
Indeed and is one of the purposes of the JAA FCL 155 form.
Whopity
10th Sep 2009, 11:09
I agree with bose-x.
Take out a current JAR-FCL medical certificate and have a look at it.
Done that, there is no Item III! Nowhere on a UK issued JAA medical certificate does it say Licence Number! Item II says: UK CAA reference number!
When you go for a medical you are required to provide your current (or previous) medical certificate.Never been asked to provide it in 34 years!
However, The details on the medical have to match the licence. In particular Item I of the Licene and Item I of the Medical have to match as do Item III of both medical and licence.Difficult when there is no Item III! Where is this written? certainly not in the UK ANO; so its not law.
Piper19
10th Sep 2009, 16:13
To those guys saying that there are no sanctions on holding multiple JAA licenses, be aware. I had to sign a paper when being issued the license, that I declared not to have had a medical JAA or FCL JAA license in another JAA country, with sanctions and license revoked if the declaration was false.
Piper19
10th Sep 2009, 16:15
What is that JAA(UK) license or french JAA license anyway, is a JAA license not the same in every JAA country? There is no such thing here as a Belgian JAA PPL.
Whopity
11th Sep 2009, 07:50
A JAA licence is a licence issued by a National Aviation Authority in accordance with JAR-FCL. The issuing State is known as the State of License issue. The licence says which State issued it and that it complies with JAR-FCL however they are not all identical and each State has implemented JAR-FCL in different ways depending upon its own legal system. Maybe when we get EASA-FCL they will be all the same!
So a JAA PPL issued in Belgium is a Belgian JAA licence.
Piper19,
Even if one did not have to sign the declaration, as part of the application process for the licence one had to demonstrate knowledge of JAR-FCL.
One can not hold a JAR-FCL licence and claim that they are unaware of the requirements in JAR-FCL relating to only holding one JAR licence or medical.
---------
Whopity,
Done that, there is no Item III!
I am sitting here looking at a "United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority Joint Aviation Authorities Medical Certificate". Looks like a "III" to me
Perhaps everyone else can also have a look here and see if they can see that there is no item III;
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_Med_JAACert2006.pdf
While the UK call it "UK CAA Reference Number", when a non-UK licence holder presents themselves to an AME for medical renewal this is the box where their licence number will be placed.
Other Authorities use the title "Licence Number".
The same thing happens when a non-uk pilot does a skill test in the UK - on the LST forms where is says UK CAA Reference Number, we put their non-UK licence number. That is what the Authorities expect.
The words make no difference as long as the number matches the licence and the paperwork is sent to the correct State of Licence Issue.
There is no point in sending an Italian pilots paperwork -State of Licence issue = Italy (be it medical, skill test, LPC or whatever) to the UK CAA. It is the Italian Authority who needs the paperwork.
BoseX is wrong to say
"I have spoken to the CAA Medical department this morning and have had it confirmed that the number that goes on the medical is your CAA medical reference number"
because it misrepresents the question asked and the answer provided which was in relation to a licence where the State of licence issue is the UK.
If the State of licence issue is not the UK then the Licence number or reference number or other identification number from the State of Licence issue will be entered in item III.
If you have never been asked to produce the revious medical certificate then I can only take it that you go to the same AME or AMC every renewal and they check what was entered on your previous medical certificate. I can assure you that if you present yourself to an AME abroad without the previous certificate then you will not get a new certificate.
How do you expect an AME / AMC that has never seen you before to establish the date of expiry of the previous medical certificate, when the las medical exam was completed, when the last ECG was completed and when the next one is due, the last Audiogram if applicable not to mention what limitations are included?
Would you take word of mouth from the pilot / pilots memory as suficient for you to give a medical certificate?
-----------
If a pilot completes their initial medical in the UK, they will be given a UK CAA reference number. This reference number will contain the same numerals as their licence when it is issued by the UK CAA.
JAR-FCL requires that all the requirements for the issue of a licence be completed under one State - the State of Licence issue. There are procedures for States to co-ordinate people moving between the two during training. However, they have to decide which State will be the state of licence issue.
------
Finally the ANO is not applicable in cases such as this unless the pilot never operates outside the UK Territory and the ANO has no jurisdiction over non-UK licenses. A person holding two JAR licenses would have to have at least one non-UK licence.
Agin I say - an admin error can result in someone holding two pieces of paper which both appear to be JAR-FCL licenses. Only through deception can gain oneself two JAR-FCL medicals.
S-Works
11th Sep 2009, 09:41
Agin I say - an admin error can result in someone holding two pieces of paper which both appear to be JAR-FCL licenses. Only through deception can gain oneself two JAR-FCL medicals.
I posted a scenario earlier where it is possible for someone to end up with two JAR-FCL licences perfectly legitimately.
BoseX,
You said earlier;
Or option 4, hold a full national licence in a country that was not JAA and then it becomes JAA and automatically upgrades all licences to FCL ones. Bit like doing a PPL in the UK and doing one in the USA and the USA suddenly becoming stupid enough to become FCL compliant. You end up with 2 FCL licences.
If the USA did as you describe and you hold a national licence in the USA, when the USA gains mutual recognition, you do not automatically have a JAR licence. You still only have a national licence. To get a JAR licence you have to apply for one and you have to meet the appropriate standards.
If country X issues a licence that says on the cover - Issued in accordance with JAR-FCL standards.then it is a JAR-FCL licence provided that statement is true.
It could not be true if that licence was issued pre-JAR.
So as far as the licence is concerned - either you have made an error or the Authority has made an error. No matter which, one of your licenses is not valid - nor are the ratings inlcuded in that licence.
This can easily be an admin error and easily fixed now but very hard to put right when dealing with a ramp check on a Sunday morning or an insurance company post accident.
The medical must match the licence - furthermore, the original report from the medical examination and a copy of the certificate must be sent to the appropriate State of Licence Issue - they can require further medical tests or alter the validity eventhough you have been given the cert.
If you only hold a UK medical and you have an accident in A Another country's aircraft using a rating in A Another country's licence, they are going to check with their medical authority for your current medical and report from your last medical. If they find nothing, they will class you as not having an appropriate medical included in the licence.
You can have a national licence number and a JAA licence number (reference number for Whopity :) ) included on the certificate. You are even entitled to a duplicate copy of the certificate at the time of issue so that you don't have to swap the certificate from licence to licence.
I have been dealing with this issue for a few years mostly because a certain airline requires it's crewmembers to transfer their State of Licence issue to the airline's home state - Understandable.
However, that State does not have or recognise national ratings such as the glider towing rating and the IMC rating. In the case of pilots who were flying pre-JAR, they have a national licence and keep that valid including the rating. They use one medical for both licenses. Unfortunately, for those that have no national licence ie those that started flying after JAR, have big problems.
The same thing applies to UK pilots and their IMC rating - those who were flying pre-jar have national PPLs (for life) and can keep their SEP and IMC ratings valid in there. However, pilots who qualified post JAR have a problem. With the IMC it is not such a problem since these pilots can keep a SP-IR very easily.
S-Works
11th Sep 2009, 12:51
OK, DFC, show me where that is LAW?
BoseX,
Please tell us which States issued your licences and how one of the national licenses you hold suddenly became a JAR licence with no action on your part. Then we will not be so much in the dark.
In respect of the medical, you should carefully read what it says on it.
On the UK Medical certificate to avoid confusion the UK CAA instructs the holder in respect of the following;
"The holder of this medical certificate is entitled to exercise the privileges of the related JAR-FCL pilot licence subject to any limitations or conditions.
S-Works
11th Sep 2009, 17:39
Sorry to say DFC, we are not talking about me.
I am just an inquiring mind following the path of your argument and seeing nothing in law to support it. I have merely offered some scenarios on how someone could end up with more than one FCL licence. You have yet to provide a legal reference to support your argument.
I at least made the effort to inquire of the UK CAA if it was possible for such a scenario from both a FCL and medical standpoint.
Here is another scenario. Someone could hold a JAA PPL in one state and a national CPL/ATPL in another state. When that other state becomes FCL compliant the pilot applies in that state for a new FCL CPL/ATPL and is granted it under grandfather rights. They then end up with two FCL licences. Now the JAA PPL might have a whole raft of ratings on it that the pilot does not want to lose and of course the CPL/ATPL may have the type ratings etc from the pilots day job and they don't want to be lost either. So the pilot ends up with 2 FCL licences.
At that point they really would want a single state of issue and so would have one of the CAA's complete a JAR 155 to to confirm the details. The two licences then get merged into a single licence under a single state.
But in the interim the pilot holds 2 FCL licences.
Yep, as does mine. I have my JAA Class 1 done in the UK but my primary licence is outside the UK.
Seems like a clear statement that you hold a UK licence and your "primary" licence is issued by another JAA country. If it is not then why say such a thing during this debate?
With the extensive detailed knowledge of JAR required to become a HOT at a TRTO, you should be telling us the situation rather than asking the questions. That will be the TRTO that approval support at the CAA can't find the details of!!! :}
However, even if you claim to have licenses in UK and another JAR-FCL country one minute and deny it the next it makes little difference since you have brought up an interesting issue.
That is why I ask you to give me the name of the country other than the UK where you "could" also have a JAR-FCL licence.
You keep asking for the law but fail to see that in the absence of a State of Licence issue it is impossible to decide jurisdiction.
Here is another scenario. Someone could hold a JAA PPL in one state and a national CPL/ATPL in another state. When that other state becomes FCL compliant the pilot applies in that state for a new FCL CPL/ATPL and is granted it under grandfather rights.
That someone can not get a JAR-FCL licence "under grandfather rights". Please read JAR-FCL for the process whereby holders of national licenses in a JAR-FCL country can obtain a JAR-FCL licence.
Unless the person completed a PPL training course in country A and did it agan in country B, when the pilot made their first application for a licence in country B they would have supplied details of the licence they held.
Therefore, it is possible the Authority could fail to notice the fact that the applicant already holds a JAR-FCL licence.
The only other posibility is that the pilot made a false declaration and obtained the ATPL by deception.
S-Works
11th Sep 2009, 21:53
With the extensive detailed knowledge of JAR required to become a HOT at a TRTO, you should be telling us the situation rather than asking the questions. That will be the TRTO that approval support at the CAA can't find the details of!!!
Only YOU, TELL us DFC. The rest of us have inquiring minds. Strange that I have a certificate on my wall that says that we are an approved type rating training organisation and I am HOT. Tell you what, give Jacqui Betts a call and ask her who we are......
Seems like a clear statement that you hold a UK licence and your "primary" licence is issued by another JAA country. If it is not then why say such a thing during this debate?
I do indeed hold a UK licence and my JAA licence is issued by another country. Just like many, my licence predates JAA. As you mentioned earlier, there are certain companies that require there crew to change the state of registration to the same as the aircraft. I still have my Class 1 done in the UK.
That someone can not get a JAR-FCL licence "under grandfather rights".
really? then why is there is a specific section of JAR FCL that deals with grandfathering national licences into JAR FCL?
Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.005
Minimum requirements for the issue of a JAR–FCL licence/authorisation on the basis
of a national licence/authorisation issued in a JAA Member State
Unless the person completed a PPL training course in country A and did it agan in country B, when the pilot made their first application for a licence in country B they would have supplied details of the licence they held.
Thats your problem DFC, you are not able to look beyond your very blinkered 'euroland' nose.
redbar1
11th Sep 2009, 21:59
After following the discussion on semantics, loopholes, surrealistic scenarios, and the total lack of interest (by some) in the underlying intention of the contents of JAR-FCL on this matter , I can only say this:
The statement I made : If so, to put the record straight, I stand corrected
is hereby formally withdrawn, to put the record even straighter! I will edit my former post accordingly. It has been a dissapointment to read some of the postings here.
But still, TGIF, great fun, I do not have to nitpick to be legal :ok:
Cheers,
Redbar1
really? then why is there is a specific section of JAR FCL that deals with grandfathering national licences into JAR FCL?
Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.005
Minimum requirements for the issue of a JAR–FCL licence/authorisation on the basis
of a national licence/authorisation issued in a JAA Member State
Grandfather rights means that one can obtain the new licence without any further requirements.
To obtain a JAR-FCL licence on the basis of a national licence one has to complete extra requirements. Please read the Appendix you are referring to for the requirements as they relate to the various licenses and what JAR-FCL licence will be issued when the various requirments have been met.
To look at the simplest case, your Grandfather with 60 Hours on their UK PPL can not get a JAA PPL. With 6000 hours they will not get a JAA PPL unless they demonstrate the required knowledge - knowledge that is extra to that required for a national licence holder.
I do indeed hold a UK licence and my JAA licence is issued by another country. Just like many, my licence predates JAA. As you mentioned earlier, there are certain companies that require there crew to change the state of registration to the same as the aircraft. I still have my Class 1 done in the UK.
So now you don't have two JAA licenses, you have a UK National licence and a JAA Licence so nothing in this debate has anything to do with all those points you were making other than the fact that the JAA licence will not be valid unless it includes a medical and you have met the State's requirements regarding having the original medical report and copy of the certificate sent to them Otherwise when checked, their records will show that you have not held a medical since..........
Stop tying yourself in knots. If you were employed as a Head of Training at a TRTO in the UK then any requirement to have the licence and country of employment matched would result in you having a licence issued in the UK.
Joking aside, I don't mind debating issues with you regardless of if you have no flying qualifications or you are the Head of the CAA (your aviation knowledge may easily be far more extensive). So please stop making a fool of yourself by claiming to be something or to have spoken with someone else just to push some aspect of the debate. You are doing nothing other than making a fool of yourself when you later have to furiously backtrack over all that you were saying.
Still waiting for the JAA country where your JAR-FCL licence is issued to answer your question about the law!! :}
S-Works
12th Sep 2009, 10:08
So now you don't have two JAA licenses, you have a UK National licence and a JAA Licence so nothing in this debate has anything to do with all those points you were making other than the fact that the JAA licence will not be valid unless it includes a medical and you have met the State's requirements regarding having the original medical report and copy of the certificate sent to them Otherwise when checked, their records will show that you have not held a medical since..........
It is you tying yourself in knots, we were never talking about me and I never claimed to have two JAA licences. I was not the original poster. I merely threw some scenarios into the pot for discussion. It is you with your usual rabid pursuit of half of the facts that has it wrong. I also see that you nicely drop to personal insults as usual when on the back foot.
My personal circumstances were and are nothing to do with the original debate.
I read through the JAR FCL that I quoted on converting a national licence and the purpose if it is to grandfather pilots into JAA FCL. It is is quite thorough on what can and can't be counted. A CPL/IR on a SPA for example with greater than 500 hours P1 can automatically get a JAR FCL licence with no further action.
Stick with the post rather than your attacks on me. I trust the copy of my 'imaginary TRTO' certificate was sufficient to spoil your breakfast?
BoseX,
I read through the JAR FCL that I quoted on converting a national licence and the purpose if it is to grandfather pilots into JAA FCL. It is is quite thorough on what can and can't be counted. A CPL/IR on a SPA for example with greater than 500 hours P1 can automatically get a JAR FCL licence with no further action.
My emphasis.
Please re-read the requirements again and in particular pay attention to;
A pilot licence issued by a JAA Member State in accordance with the national requirements of that
State may be replaced by a JAR–FCL licence subject, where applicable, to conditions. For the
replacement of such licences the holder shall:
(a) for ATPL(A) and CPL(A), complete as a proficiency check, type/class and instrument rating (IR if
applicable) revalidation requirements of JAR-FCL 1.245(b)(1), JAR-FCL 1.245(c)(1)(i) or 1.245(c)(2)
relevant to the privileges of the licence held.
(b) (i) for ATPL(A) and CPL(A) demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Authority that a knowledge of the
relevant parts of JAR–OPS 1 and JAR–FCL (see AMC FCL 1.005 & 1.015) has been acquired;
(ii) for PPL(A) only demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Authority that a knowledge of the
relevant parts of JAA Requirements (see AMC FCL 1.125) has been acquired;
(c) demonstrate a knowledge of English in accordance with JAR–FCL 1.200 if IR privileges are held;
Clearly it does not say that you can walk in to the office with a national CPL and logbook and walk out with a JAA CPL even if you have 5000 hours.
What may be confusing you is that many of the requirements have in the UK been overtaken by time and other issues. For example the english language proficiency is something that most active national licence holders will already have. Most national licence holders will have renewed or revalidated their ratings in accordance with JAR-FCL since that is the only way they are done these days.
-----------
I trust the copy of my 'imaginary TRTO' certificate was sufficient to spoil your breakfast?
It did make me laugh quite a lot. Not enough to spoil my Breakfast though. :D
Problem is that the imaginary certificate you PM'd me;
was not a TRTO certificate
was not valid in July when I questioned your claims and you PM'd me the TRTO number you had and the aircraft you were providing training for
Does not have the same number as the one you told me in July
and
Does not have the aircraft you said in July you were training on listed.
and
Are you surprised that based on this and your lack of knowledge of JAR-FCL that I am to put it mildly "suspicious".
Coupled with the fact that you have hidden the base aerodrome which is public information in the case of TRTO's, FTOs and RTF's.
Perhaps best that you simply stick to debating things rather than claiming to be something in order to add weight to your argument. :D :D
S-Works
12th Sep 2009, 11:25
Problem is that the imaginary certificate you PM'd me;
was not a TRTO certificate
was not valid in July when I questioned your claims and you PM'd me the TRTO number you had and the aircraft you were providing training for
Does not have the same number as the one you told me in July
Not sure which certificate you are looking at but the last line above the type states 'as an approved Type Rating Training Organisation'. TRTO certificates are issued yearly.......
Looking at the message I sent you in July the aircraft matches what I told you. I will however apologise for the typo in the FTO number, I hit a 5 instead of a 6, the downside of typing on an iPhone.
If the base airfield is public domain then go look for it if you are really that interested. I was not making your life easy!!
My knowledge of JAR FCL does not need to be encyclopaedic, I just need to know where to look stuff up when needed.
Clearly it does not say that you can walk in to the office with a national CPL and logbook and walk out with a JAA CPL even if you have 5000 hour
I never said that you could. I merely pointed out that the path for grandfathering of national licences exists.
Most national licence holders will have renewed or revalidated their ratings in accordance with JAR-FCL since that is the only way they are done these days.
b) (i) for ATPL(A) and CPL(A) demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Authority that a knowledge of the
relevant parts of JAR–OPS 1 and JAR–FCL (see AMC FCL 1.005 & 1.015) has been acquired;
Which was exactly my point. Other than a paperwork exercise and a proficiency check most people qualify for an automatic issue of a FCL licence from a national licence. In the UK demonstration of knowledge of JAR-OPS was by signing the form!
Perhaps you should stick to debate rather than personal attacks. You have successfully made another thread completely about me. Flattering but also a little stalkerish.......
redbar1
12th Sep 2009, 12:11
bose-x:
Other than a paperwork exercise and a proficiency check most people qualify for an automatic issue of a FCL licence
Your definition of "automatic" seems quite odd... apart from filling out forms, obtaining a JAR-FCL medical, pass the appropriate HPL exam, arranging for a ProfCheck, passing said PC, sending the PC form and paperwork to the CAA, and pay the appropriate fee, all this is automatic....:}
And national licenses are not grandfathered into JAR-FCL licenses, they are transferred. Grandfathering has a completely different meaning.
(And I have not been involved in any discussion about you.. :ok:)
Cheers,
Redbar1
S-Works
12th Sep 2009, 12:45
I give up!
markkal
12th Sep 2009, 16:05
Hi folks have a case still open with the issue of Jar/PPL's
Not possible to have 2 PPL licences from 2 Jar's states.
I Hold a french JAR PPL
Hold an Italian FI(A) Jar + Theoretical Jar CPL.
Have sent all italian documents to the french C of A ( DGAC) in Paris for transcription on my PPL.
By registered mail and never got a reply.
Over the phone the "Service du Personnel Naviguant" at DGAC Paris told me that while France has signed mutual recognition under Jar's, they will not transcribe ratings done in another Jar country.
They suggested me to take all exams again and final test checkride in france
or relinquish my french ppl in favour of the italian one, then deal with the italians.
The italians would not issue me with an italian PPL (JAR) where to transcribe ratings. They must return original french PPL (Jar) to Paris.
The process is now under way.
Italian FAA asked for my medical ( I have a french JAR Medical, hope they will not object to this ).
By the way, off topic, but interesting french peculiarities:
UK Radiotelephony qualification is not recognised in france (for those holding french ppl's)...
Need to pass a test in english with a french inspector.
It also seems, but have no confirmation, that all french airline pilots have been granted Level 6 in English downright...
redbar1
12th Sep 2009, 19:08
Hello Markkal,
Yes, when people start "cut-and-paste"-training in different states, one might find oneself in such a "catch22"-like situation as you describe.
On the first peculiarity you have observed: Need to pass a test in english with a french inspector There is no obligation on any state to recognise language proficiency tests from other states, for entry into their own licenses.
Your other "peculiarity": It also seems, but have no confirmation, that all french airline pilots have been granted Level 6 in English downright... Wow... You know what, I have heard that in Italy, they give away FI(A)'s and CPL theory credits for free...., but, of course, I have no confirmation...:E
Hey, relax, just kidding, but you had it coming...:ok:
Cheers,
Redbar1
Markall,
I am afraid that it is too late for you but the advice I always give in such cases is to ask before you go. Get it in writing if they will accept the course and if they will accept the test and if they do what paperwork they require.
Perhaps an option is to transfer your JAR-FCL licence to Italy, have the rating and knowldge credit entered and then either try and use it in France or transfer it back to France again. The cost of the licence double change will be less than a complete course and test.
Again ask the Authorities before comitting.
The language proficiency is a known issue. Much of the row revolves round the method countries use for trainng, assessing and qualification of the language assessors.
-------
Bose-X,
TRTO certificates are issued yearly
The initial certificate is issued for 1 year. Provided everything operates correctly, subsequent approvals run for periods of 3 years.
Whopity
13th Sep 2009, 12:29
DFCPerhaps everyone else can also have a look here and see if they can see that there is no item III;It appears there are two versions of Med164 both bearing the same date though printed differently, 01/12/06 and the other 01122006 in which one has an item II and the other has an item III. My version has no item III. In any case it does not say licence number!
Of course if we were really complying with JAR-FCL our licences would all begin with the postal code of the State of issue in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.075(III) Serial number commencing
with the postal code of the issuing State
and followed by a code of numbers
and/or letters in Arabic numerals and in
Roman script.
Of course if we were really complying with JAR-FCL our licences would all begin with the postal code of the State of issue in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.075
But they do!!
Example UK/CP/123456A/B
The "UK" is the country postal code for the United Kingdom.
The reason why III is used on the medical and II is not is so that the relevant boxes are common to both licence and medical i.e. Your licence number or CAA reference number (however you wish to describe it) is placed in "III" on both pieces of paper.
Have a look at a JAR-FCL licence and medical - the boxes on both match-up. Quite and important check on a ramp check or if A another pilot wants to fly your aircraft.
CirrusF
13th Sep 2009, 19:49
Have a look at a JAR-FCL licence and medical - the boxes on both match-up. Quite and important check on a ramp check or if A another pilot wants to fly your aircraft.
My French Class 1 Medical has no number on it at all.
The process by which I ended up with a UK JAR PPL and a French ATPL is that on completion of my CPL test in France, I surrendered my JAR PPL as is required by the licencing authority (DGAC in my case) . The DGAC returned my JAR PPL along with my newly issued CPL. They did not transfer the ratings (FI and seaplane) from my PPL to my CPL. I have informed the CAA of this situation - they did not object.
I think that my situation may have arisen because the DGAC will not recognise non-French FI ratings, so they could not transfer my UK FI rating to my French CPL. They therefore returned my PPL.
As I only fly seaplanes for fun, this is not such an issue as I can do so on my UK PPL. But I had to redo the FI qualification entirely in order to instruct in France.
I think that my situation may have arisen because the DGAC will not recognise non-French FI ratings, so they could not transfer my UK FI rating to my French CPL. They therefore returned my PPL.
Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding lies.
Just because they sent you back the PPL it does not mean that it is valid.
You are correct about the French attitude to non-French FI ratings.
France is your State of Licence issue. The DGAC decides what JAR ratings you hold and if they say no FI rating then the UK CAA can not object.
The rule is simple - you can not hold more than one valid JAR-FCL licence or medical at the same time.
It does not matter that requirements such as this are not included in national legislation. The matter is covered by the requirements of Mutual Recognition and holders of JAR-FCL licenses to demonstrate knowledge of JAR-FCL.
Note well that pilots UK are required to demonstrate knowledge of JAR-FCL and not simply what bits of JAR-FCL have been included in the ANO directly.
CirrusF
14th Sep 2009, 05:33
Just because they sent you back the PPL it does not mean that it is valid.
My JAR PPL is still valid - I specifically asked the CAA, as I wanted to carry on flying seaplanes in a private capacity. When I had to renew the seaplane rating, I explained the situation in full and sent a copy of my French CPL along with my UK PPL, and the rating renewal form. CAA sent back my PPL with the rating renewed. I have also declared everything to the insurance.
CirrusF,
I would be more interested in what France - your State of Licence Issue has to say on the matter. They are the ones who decide what you are licensed to fly under JAR-FCL until you complete the process for changing the State of Licence Issue back to the UK.
Be very carefull - if the CAA say that your JAR-PPL is valid then by definition they are saying that you do not hold a higher JAA licence which is valid.
If you fly professionally, I recomend that rather than you asking each authority individually, you ask for a joint statement and they they jointly agree which state will be State of Licence Issue.
You have not given us the reason why the DGAC did not put the SEP_Sea on your licence? What did they say when you asked?