counter-insurgency (COIN) aircraft comeback?

[Wings Of Fury]

There has been allot of talk amongst USAF officials of a requirement for a counter-insurgency (COIN) aircraft.
They have been talking about aircraft like AT-6B, AT-37, OV-10, EMB-314, PC-9 and A-67, and of course extending the use of the A-10.
And of course there is the debate about "why not keep using UCAV's, well the USAF still needs a pilot to "get down and amongst" the action in co-ordination with ground troops, much the same as in the FAC's did in previous wars.

What are some of your views on what would be a good Aircraft?
Also there is talk about outsourcing this need to a private security force.
If all the equipment not having U.S. State Department restrictions on use.
Makes life easier for the USAF and on a short term basis much like the PMCs (Private Military Companies) operating in the theaters of conflicts today.

Any takers?

[L J R]

I heard that Executive Outcomes (aka Sandline) went bankrupt.

[GreenKnight121]

We HAD several threads recently that covered this subject... but a search of the last 2 months' threads found none of them... they seem to have been removed after they dropped off the front page.

[Yeoman_dai]

I started a load of them, mainly based around the US and Iraq's search for a new dedicated COIN aircraft.

If I remember the prevailing views, UAV's although useful don't have the situational awareness of a slow flying COIN plane with two crew, and cannot operate from the same far forwards rough strip. The Super Tucano seemed to be the aircraftof choice, although some of course suggested Bronco, Pucara and even return of the SkyRaider!


If you look here

Defense Tech: COIN Air Force on its Way (http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004945.html)

It shows how the USAF are thinking of creating an irregular air force Wing to specifically deal with low intensity operations.

Theren there is this Defense Tech: The COIN Plane Race Heats Up (http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004865.html) a dedicated attempt to replace the SPAD.

If you are also interested, here is an excellent article by a retired USAF colonel about the need for a COIN PIREP - Irregular Warfare and the US Air Force: The Way Ahead (http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj07/win07/read.html)

And here The Penny Drops: Iraq Chooses its COIN Aircraft (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/iraq-issues-rfp-for-coin-aircraft-03281/#more-3281) is an atricle on which COIN aircraft of 4 the Iraqi airforce has chosen - the Texan II, mostly IMHO because it's American.




Listening to the informed on here, I don't really think you can go far wrong with a Super Tucano. It has built in guns (not gatling type weapons, so they will be more accurate), two crew to share spotting and workload, the ability to loiter for 5 hours, and operate from very tough strips (as one article mentions, it's judged very 'heavy' for a trainer but thats a byproduct of its touch build', and I know that it CAN be equipped with JDAM's and a whole range of modern weaponry. Even Brimstone wouldn't be beyond in IMO. Just my 2 pence.

[Wader2]

Note, it is the USAF that is supposedly looking for a COIN aircraft. What do they want it for and what do they want of it?

If they want it for use in low intensity operations such as central America then that would not seem unreasonable. If they are considering it for use in Afghanistan as an A10-lite then the requirement is different.

Do they want 'cheap'? Do they want 'rugged'? Do they want all weather and better capability etc?

Unless they tie the requirement down to austere and limited then the only real answer, for the USAF, is the A10.

The elephant in the room however is the US Army. They already have a versatile platform which, although it cannot carry bombs, is possibly more devastating than the A10. As Apache is Army that rules it out for the USAF but I don't see the USAF opting for 'cheap' when it comes to operating a COIN platform themselves.

[Occasional Aviator]

The USAF have tied down their requirement - it is known as OA-X. Try googling or searching wiki. Super Tucano does, at this stage, look the favourite.

Wader2, not sure I agree with your analysis. Apache wins in some ways terms of weapons and protection (though not necessarily survivability), but what it doesn't have is speed. Super Tucano is maybe 3 times as fast so can cover nine times the area for a given response time - the corollory being that you don't have to have as many bases and/or base your assets in the highest threat areas. I'm also not sure that it's as simple as
As Apache is Army that rules it out for the USAF

[Wader2]

OA, take your point about speed and delivery times. I think turf wars could be an issue however, just my opinion.

[Neptunus Rex]

Just resurrect the beautiful Beaufighter with modern aids and weaponry. Those two big Bristols with sleeve valves could absorb a lot of battle damage! Not for nothing did the Far Eastern Foe call her "Whispering Death."

OK, OK, I know that Useful Stacker and his mates will, quite rightly, point out the lack of Avgas 100/130, so how about a pair of TP 400s? 11,000 shp each should do the trick. The only problem I foresee is teaching the new generation how to land a taildragger.

:E

[MarkerInbound]

"The only problem I foresee is teaching the new generation how to land a taildragger."

Wasn't that one of the issues with the PA-48 "Turbo Mustangs."

[Gainesy]

Is it an exat at the Lollipop Farm?:rolleyes:

[arandcee]

Out of interest (and with no knowledge whatsover so feel free to flame) how would Hellfire armed Cessna Caravans like the ones supplied to Iraq (I think I read in AFM) fit in to the mix? Potentially even more eyes than a Tucano, but not as quick? Possibly able to operate from more rugged strips?

Feel free to discuss/ignore/flame . . .

[mr fish]

i always thought the PUCARA was a tasty looking aircraft.
i gather one was captured, returned to airworthy condition and evaluated at boscombe down.
can anyone throw some light on the test conclusions??

[L J R]

Does it have to be Manned?

[West Coast]

Does it have to be Manned?

Not if a women is flying it.


Unless she is an alumni of the East German swim team, then it would be manned.

[pontifex]

You are quite right Mr Fish. It really wasn't that much good. Great aerobatics though!

[fallmonk]

Could we maybe see a HEAVLY ARMED Osprey?
I know its still going thru deployment trials, but IF they could make it work , would it not tick all the boxes? speed , armement , with a troop carrying role? SAR-Medi vac role to boot ?????

[ORAC]

The Capability Request For Information (CRFI) is embedded in the story..

USAF officially launches light attack fighter comeback (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/07/usaf-officially-launches-light.html)

The US Air Force has issued a request for information to identify sources that can supply 100 new fighters to perform light attack and armed reconnaissance roles.

Air Combat Command released a request for information on July 27 that calls for first aircraft deliveries to start in Fiscal 2012 and the first operational squadron to activate a year later.

The requirements call for a two-seat turboprop capable of flying up to 30,000ft and equipped with zero-altitude/zero-airspeed ejection seats, full motion video camera, data link, infrared suppressor, radar warning receiver and armored cockpit. Weapons must include a gun, two 500-lb bombs, 2.75-inch rockets and rail-launched munitions.

The known for competitors for the requirement include the Air Tractor AT-802U, Embraer Super Tucano, Hawker Beechcraft AT-6B Texan II and Pilatus PC-9.

Michel Merluzeau, managing partner at G2 Global Solutions, wrote earlier this week new demand for counter-insurgency (COIN) aircraft could revive interest in the Piper PA-48 Enforcer (pictured above). The PA-48 is an updated version of the World War II-era North American P-51 Mustang, which the USAF evaluated in the early 1970s for a possible COIN role. One potential issue is the PA-48 would not meet the USAF's requirement for a two-seat fighter.

The light attack/armed reconnaissance fleet, if finally approved, would join a growing COIN air force within an air force. The USAF has already purchased 37 Hawker Beechcraft MC-12Ws to serve as manned intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft, filling a role previously served almost exclusively by unmanned aircraft systems.

The USAF also released another RFI earlier this week (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/07/us-air-force-seeks-60-airlifte.html) for as many as 60 light mobility aircraft (LiMA) to airlift up to six passengers or small loads of cargo from austere or unimproved surfaces.

[Yeoman_dai]

That upgraded P51 - the 'Enforcer' - I take it that they moved the airscoop from underneath the fuselage to somewhere more sensible for a ground attack aircraft operating within small arms range, yes? :}



Just looked it up - looks good, although would probably take a lot to modify it enough to accept JDAMs, and IMHO a two seater would be preferrable, from what i've picked up from others.

[ECMO1]

Ran across this article a few weeks ago, but it might be older than that.U.S. Eyes Super Tucano for SpecOps Work

By andrew scutro



The U.S. Navy's new Irregular Warfare office has been looking at an agile Brazilian observation and ground-attack turboprop to provide an "organic" close air support aircraft for special operations forces.


Under the classified "Imminent Fury" program, the Navy has already leased, tested and armed at least one Embraer EMB-314 Super Tucano, according to Capt. Mark Mullins, a naval special warfare officer serving as the deputy director of the Navy Irregular Warfare Office at the Pentagon.


"This is a close air support, manned aircraft with a pilot and sensor operator. The idea here is that SOF needs an organic capability that can stick with them while they're doing their mission," Mullins said. "We're not buying them; we're leasing them right now. That's an important point."


Speaking March 12 at an exposition on expeditionary warfare in Virginia Beach, Va., Mullins said the intent is to put four of the single-engine aircraft into the fight as quickly as possible.


"Now we're in an operational pause, trying to figure out how to get to Phase II. We need about $44 million," he said. "Back to the method of venture capitalism, we're working with the Air Force and Marine Corps, socializing it with those guys to see if we can get money invested and get to Phase II, where we're taking four aircraft into theater."


The EMB-314 is flown by the military forces of Brazil and Colombia, according to Christine Manna, communications director at Embraer's office for North America in Fort Lauderdale, Fla.


As well, Manna said, Chile bought 12 planes and the Dominican Republic bought eight, but the planes have not been delivered yet.


The Super Tucano has a flight endurance of more than six hours, carries several sensors, can be armed with a heavy machine gun in each wing and has mounts for bombs, cannon and rocket pods, according to Jane's All the World's Aircraft 2008-9.


Calling it a "fascinating piece of kit," Mullins said "the proof of concept" is complete after a year of testing. But he described Imminent Fury as his new office's "most contentious project," mostly due to wariness from naval aviation.


"You can imagine the SOF guys and Marines really love this," he said. "The challenge here, and why it's so contentious, is it falls into the seam where it's really not clear whose bailiwick it is. It's not a marinized aircraft. It doesn't fly off the carrier."


Mullins said the Super Tucano can be landed on an unimproved airstrip such as a road, refueled in minutes and sent right back into the fray.


A briefing slide on the Imminent Fury project obtained by Defense News sister publication Navy Times identifies the need for a "tactical fixed wing [intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance] platform to provide expeditionary, organic Find/Fix/Finish operations for SOF Forces in a maneuverable, long range, low heat signature platform."


The project began following a visit by Navy Secretary Donald Winter with naval special warfare task forces in the Central Command area in October 2007, according to a similar brief.


"It's not about flying in from 1,000 miles away, dropping some thousand-pound bombs and leaving," Mullins said. "It's about working with [the ground force], doing the intelligence preparation of the battlespace, doing a [communication] relay, close air support, eyes on target and if there's squirters leaving the target, keeping up with them and tracking them down and doing [bomb damage assessment] at the end."


Although Mullins said the project is awaiting funding to move forward, a slide in Mullins' presentation indicated it's sponsored by the Office of the Secretary of Defense, Naval Air Systems Command and the Navy.


"Imminent Fury is a classified Navy initiative to address urgent warfighter needs," said Lt. Sean Robertson, a Navy spokesman at the Pentagon. "Initial developmental testing has been promising, and the Navy is currently conducting discussions with our Joint partners on various courses of action as this initiative moves forward."


Mullins delivered an unclassified brief, but details of Imminent Fury remain classified, Robertson said.


The Irregular Warfare office, part of the Navy staff at the Pentagon, was established in July under the direction of Adm. Gary Roughead, the chief of naval operations. It's headed by Rear Adm. Mark Kenny, a submariner.


"Our goal is to rapidly deliver capabilities and effects," Mullins said. "And we are the CNO's lead for irregular warfare."

[Yeoman_dai]

Talking of this subject... straw poll, since this is a network for military Pilots who, the general myth goes, only like jets and whizzy stuff to fly

Who here would be happy to pilot one of these into a combat area (lets use Afghanistan for the purposes of this question) instead of, say, a Harrier? Or not, and if not any particular reason?

[texet]

In counter-insurgency, you are just trying to take out the bad guys - although taking them out usually helps. Counter-insurgency is also about winning the hearts and minds of the populace. While 500-pound bombs with precision guidance can kill bad guys - and have been used by the United States and Israel in Iraq and the Gaza Strip - they also cause a lot of collateral damage. That tends to cause PR problems.
This is where the lighter, slower, COIN aircraft come in handy. The lighter weapons they use can often be aimed more precisely, usually due to the slower speed of the aircraft. These weapons are much less likely to cause collateral damage. A standard Mark 82 500-pound bomb usually carries about 200 pounds of high explosives. That is a pretty big bang - and in addition to taking out the room a sniper or machine-gunner is in, it tends to destroy the rest of the building and damage neighboring buildings. A 2.75-inch Hydra rocket usually only has a 15-pound warhead. That is usually enough to do the job, and it won't bother the neighbours that much.
One other benefit that new counter-insurgency planes would bring to the table is permitting the use of precision-guided missiles like the Hellfire. That missile has a range of about 8km, can be laser-guided or use millimeter-wave radar. The Hellfire has a 20-pound warhead. Currently, the Hellfire is primarily carried by attack helicopters, which have been vulnerable to RPGs and surface-to-air missiles. COIN aircraft are faster than helicopters, and harder to get a bead on. COIN aircraft can also get to a given place faster than helicopters, which can only go about 300 km/hr at most.

[larssnowpharter]

OV 10 anyone?

[OFBSLF]

Could we maybe see a HEAVLY ARMED Osprey?
I know its still going thru deployment trials, but IF they could make it work , would it not tick all the boxes? speed , armement , with a troop carrying role? SAR-Medi vac role to boot ?????
What is the current fly-away cost of an Osprey? $70-90M?

You could buy a whole squadron of Tucanos for the cost of a single Osprey.

[Yeoman_dai]

Nick - you make some good points about strategy, although I must disagree with the assertion that any such COIN aircraft would become an collander - a Tucano, say, is a faster target than say an Apache, and would loiter longer and carry more ordnance that said heli - proving a better middle ground between a gunship and a fast jet. I really don't think it would be as vulnerable as you state.

[GreenKnight121]

Hmmm... this time the thread I was looking for was there:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/382112-us-deploy-jdam-equipped-super-tucanos.html

Which contains these links:
Defense Tech: Secret Program Works to Field SEAL Plane (http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004941.html)
Defense Tech: COIN Air Force on its Way (http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004945.html#comments)

[chevvron]

Could always ask Putin if he's got any Su25's going spare; they've been used in Afghanistan before.

[US Herk]

OV 10 anyone?
From earlier this year:
Boeing considers restarting OV-10 production after 23-year hiatus (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/02/01/321730/boeing-considers-restarting-ov-10-production-after-23-year.html)

[chopper2004]

The Air Force?s next step after its light attack demo: A combat trial (http://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/08/10/whats-the-air-forces-next-step-after-its-light-attack-demo-a-combat-demonstration/)

Cheers

[sharpend]

Scorpion... brilliant.

[Heathrow Harry]

An article in "Flight" a few weeks back looked at COIN roles and referenced a USAF study post ?Korean War? which showed that the COIN ircraft (principally the Skyraider) was 10 times as effective as a jet at a fraction of the cost. Trouble was the loss of crew was a lot higher......

so you have a choice - very effective cheap ground support is possible as long as you can put up with the casualties,................

I'm sure the guys on the ground would suggest losing a few pilots is a small price to pay to save a lot of infantry but I'm not sure the USAF sees it that way........

[Pontius Navigator]

HH, as a plan I would agree but in reality, where the guys on the ground are danger close the airman has frequently stood in to danger even at risk to themselves.

Nick Richardson in 1994 is a British case in point. Then in AFG there are plenty of instances with Apache and Chinook both standing in to danger when prudence would suggest otherwise.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best. Planning a 'soft' coin ac expecting to lose some is not planning for the worst.

[SASless]

I am thinking it is more some "commonsense" returning to the DOD.

Why do you need an F-16/F-18/F-35 to put "hate" on bad guys in a low to no threat area?

[Heathrow Harry]

You are of course correct Pontius - people put their lives in danger to help others without being asked in just about any armed forces

but I think the US Study - which I must try and dig out tonight -was more one of these Cost/Benefit things - looking the systemic issues. Yes putting in more COIN aircraft would have a very positive effect on the whole USAF/Army ability to take out the enemy BUT there is a cost and it's in human lives

Tough call TBH

[SASless]

As you read down through this Report....one must keep in mind the various Threat Envelopes encountered during the span of the Vietnam War and also bear in mind that the AA Threat in South Vietnam other than Border Regions with Cambodia, Laos, and North Vietnam was quite different than in the North and Border Regions and the Ho Chi Minh Trail areas of neighboring countries.

An example of some Stats for the A-1 Sky Raider during the War:

266 Lost to all Causes
3 Lost due to Air to Air Combat (two lost to MIG 17's)
5 Lost to SAM's

But....two MIG 17's were bagged by A-1's.....for an equal trade off.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/c016682.pdf

[sandiego89]

Looks like the USAF OA-X competition will not involve a combat trial, but more of desk exercise between the AT-6 and Super Tucano


“Rather than do a combat demonstration, we have decided to work closely with industry to experiment with maintenance, data networking, and sensors with the two most promising light attack aircraft — the [Textron] AT-6 Wolverine and the [SNC-Embraer] A-29 Super Tucano,” said Wilson. “This will let us gather the data needed for a rapid procurement.”


USAF axes planned light attack combat demo | Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/77583/usaf-axes-planned-light-attack-combat-demo)

[pr00ne]

Who "lightly" attacks anything?

[Davef68]

Looks like the USAF OA-X competition will not involve a combat trial, but more of desk exercise between the AT-6 and Super Tucano


“Rather than do a combat demonstration, we have decided to work closely with industry to experiment with maintenance, data networking, and sensors with the two most promising light attack aircraft — the [Textron] AT-6 Wolverine and the [SNC-Embraer] A-29 Super Tucano,” said Wilson. “This will let us gather the data needed for a rapid procurement.”


USAF axes planned light attack combat demo | Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/77583/usaf-axes-planned-light-attack-combat-demo)


Interesting this was announced the day before the Su25 shootdown.

[Arclite01]

They will buy the Textron (if they buy anything) - it's largely made in the US.

Actually even today the ordnance loads carried by the Skyraider and its overall ruggedness are pretty impressive in my book............. if I was down on the ground you could do worse than see a SPAD overhead.

Arc

[sandiego89]

They will buy the Textron (if they buy anything) - it's largely made in the US.


Arc


I believe some 20+ Super Tucanos have been built in the USA, by Embraer/Sierra Nevada in Jacksonville, Florida.


20 for Afghanistan, and another 6 perhaps.


12 ordered by Nigeria.

[Bob Viking]

I find it uncanny that in 2010 I participated in a QWI presentation as part of my Hawk QWI Course.

The subject was COIN aircraft. We used the Spad as our historical case study and considered aircraft such as Super Tucano, Texan 2 and the Air Tractor.

Interestingly we selected Texan 2 mainly due to its large scale US backing and potential for mixed load out. We touted it as dual use aircraft for training and Ops.

L3 are currently marketing a weaponised Air Tractor as a COIN aircraft.

Now I’m not suggesting for one second that anyone listened to us or that we started something in motion but it does prove that it wasn’t just us lowly scrotes that could see the obvious.

BV

[gums]

Salute!

Long time reading this thread, but I agree that the Tucano has the inside track.

No substitute for actual time in the field and actual combat.

WRT to the A-1........... I flew the "COIN" A-37 in its early days ( see Combat Dragon). By the time USAF folded up all attack squads in-country, the A-37 of the 8th squad folded up in October 1972. It was the last, and had been for more than a year.

We flew over 70,000 sorties in the A-37 from 1967 to 1972 and only had about 2 dozen airframe losses and 13 pilot losses. All you folks that like the Hawg and the "low and slow" tactic should re-evaluate. Nowadays you can heve great accuracy without dropping until you see the whites of their eyes. Nevertheless, getting down close had morale boosts for the good guys and it also helps getting a fix on who is who if your sensors are tits-up.

In a very low threat scenario the Tucano should do really well. Hell, my old Dragonfly would kick ass.

The problem for the U.S. and other countries that are trying "to help" is expending resources that will not help "the cause". That's $$ and most importantly, people!!! If you have to "win the hearts and minds", then you need not apply, as the other side has already won and most of the "%$# hole" countries will likely never see things the way you do until major changes in government and/or religious factors come into play.

My Viet students and the old pilots I helped there had no problem with "hearts and minds". It was a combo of the government "establishment' and the general attitude of the populace that had gone thru colonial rule and then a failed government since 1954. They didn't realize what a truly free country offered as long as the government let them alone and they could grow chickens, harvest rice and catch fish.

I step off my sopa box.

Gums....

[Heathrow Harry]

Interesting article in this weeks Economist backs Gums.

The French and others are battering away in Mali. They can keep the rebels out of the main towns and the South but make no progress elsewhere as the government is disliked and distrust ed and hasn't been seen thereabouts in12 years

[TBM-Legend]

Follow the Lt Gen Gerald Templer model from the successful Malaya insurgency 1948/60 and a win may occur..

[gums]

TNX, Harry.

Yep, the lack of confidence or support or whatever of the "government" is a biggie.

I look at the 'stan and I see no solid, central government as far back as Marco Polo and further. I had two students from the 'stan, and they were different as to their view of the central government, such as it was or wasn't.

My Vee students in the A-37 were mostly pilots that wanted to bomb the VC and North Vee invaders. However, they were very distrustful of the existing regime. They also could see the average "man on the street" attitude toward the Saigon government.

Lottsa aspects concerning insurgency and how to "help" a good cause. I was there and I still can't figure out how I could have helped.

Gums sends...

[BEagle]

I was at Barksdale in 1979 flying the Vulcan during GIANT VOICE 79, the SAC Bomb/Nav competition. Also on the base were some AFRES A-37 Super Tweets; talking to some of the pilots over drinks in the O-club (served by Mister Charles Baker*, of course!), I asked if there was any chance of a trip. They tried, but 'higher HQ' said no :uhoh: . But I did get a trip in a B-52G, which was...interesting!

The AFRES guys told me that the main issue they had with the A-37 was that on hot days in Loozyana, even the 11600' runway wasn't long enough when carrying all those drop tanks - if they lost an engine during take-off there wasn't enough stopping distance as the A-37 brakes weren't particularly good. "T-38 engines, T-37 brakes" was how they described it.

*Charles W Baker passed away at the end of 2017 at the ripe old age of 86. RIP. He will be sadly missed by the many thousands of people who he served at the O Club during the 60+ years of his service.

[Bob Viking]

I stopped off at Barksdale AFB on a road trip with work last year to visit the 8th Air Force museum (they had a Vulcan parked in plain sight from the road).

Sadly their website failed to mention (at least it certainly wasn’t obvious to me) that it is only open to base personnel or sponsored guests.

I tried to point out (politely, this is America we’re talking about) that, as a serving hofficer in her Majesty’s Royal Air Force, I should be allowed to look at one of our former aircraft.

No luck unfortunately. So we went to Texarkana just so I could say we’d been there. My advice is not to bother. It’s rubbish!

BV

[BEagle]

Their website states:

As a result of current world events, the Barksdale Global Power Museum is performing the following safeguards for our visitors:

•A Government issued ID, (Drivers License, Passport etc.) is required to gain entry at the gate entrance.

•All vehicles are subject to search.

•No backpacks, briefcases or large bags will be allowed in any buildings.

•Visitors please sign in upon entering the museum.



Nowhere does it state that non-US personnel aren't welcome....

[Bob Viking]

It’s not just me then?! The gate staff were typically polite but inflexible in the usual way.

We went quite a long distance out of our way to visit as well. Still we were in a 5.0 V8 Mustang GT though so driving wasn’t a chore.

BV

[Haraka]

Interesting developments going on in South Africa if the publicity on the Paramount Ahrlac/Mwari programme is to be believed. Two , including the production prototype, are now flying:

"This year the factory is expected to produce between four and six Ahrlacs, ramping up to between 18 and 24 in 2020 and thereafter reaching the planned maximum of 36. Although there are launch customers for the Ahrlac (production has been sold out for the next five years), these have not been named"

[gums]

Salute!

I have a hard time with the A-37 needing more than about 5,000 feet to get up, even at max gross weight. Something doesn't compute.

At Bien Hoa, Pleiku, England AFB and Barksdale a decent loadout was two tanks, two BLU-1 napes, 2 x MK-82 500 pounders and 2 x MK-81 250lb "lady fingers". No problem at 35 or 40 deg C. So I feel the reservists were joking.

Pleiku was 2,400 feet elevation and the rwy was 6,000 feet more or less. I flew from there with the load above from Christmas 1967 to March of 1968. No problems. The four fuel tanks on the "OA-37" don't come close to maxing out the weight or drag we flew with.

Lastly, I was an FCF pilot at England AFB and with just enuf gas in the tips and drop tanks to see if they were feeding we could get airborne in about 800 feet and then climb at 30 degrees. Biggest problem was getting gear up before airloads got too high. That sucker was more overpowered than the Viper.

The long pole in the tent was stopping distance, and the small brakes were a factor if aborting at rotation. We did have one go off the other end at Bien Hoa trying to stop, and that RWY was about like Barksdale's. He actually got up, and set back down versus cleaning the wings and pressing on with one good engine. And recall that we routinely shut one down to save gas when loitering, even with the heavy loadout

Too bad about all the security at Barksdale, but some bases are worse than others after those towers went down and we are still fooling around over in the sandbox. Ditto for not getting a ride, as you would have loved that little beast.

Gums sends...

[BEagle]

Hi gums - it wasn't the actual take-off distance which was the problem, it was the AFRES rules which apparently required that the take-off could be abandoned right up to rotation speed and the aircraft stopped before the upwind fence.

Yes, I'd love to have flown the A-37. One of the unsung heroes of the day!

[Lonewolf_50]

Interestingly we selected Texan 2 mainly due to its large scale US backing and potential for mixed load out. We touted it as dual use aircraft for training and Ops. I seem to recall that the Greek Air Force was, about 10 years ago, buying an armed variant. Based on what I know about the T-6 (which was a joy to fly) I'd call it a glass cannon at best.

[NutLoose]

Agreed.




As for a Cheap COIN aircraft, surely it all becomes dependent on the threat being encountered in the age of Manpads, cheap to buy may be attractive, but survivability becomes the key, armoured pilot tub, triple redundant spars, high wing protected engines and a semi retractable undercarriage are all traits the A10 had built in from the start, one does wonder how well a Tucano will stand up to any such punishment, cheaper they may be but if they are vulnerable is it cost effective?

[IcePaq]

https://youtu.be/UWeoI_oQHpo

[Pontius Navigator]

A Tucano look a like for the COIN role is the 1940s Skyraider. A similar size and there the comparison ends. According it Wiki the MTOW of the one is almost 4 times that of the other.

The difference is one was designed for result and weapon carriage and the other as a cheap lightweight trainer.

[ORAC]

Not sure what the last bit means in English.....

http://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/07/03/air-force-cancels-remaining-light-attack-experiment-flights-but-effort-to-continue/

US Air Force cancels remaining light-attack experiment flights, but effort will continue

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force will not conclude the flying portion of its light-attack experiment after a June 22 aircraft crash resulted in the death of a pilot (https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/06/24/navy-identifies-pilot-who-died-in-a-29-super-tucano-crash-in-new-mexico/), a senior official announced Tuesday. However, Lt. Gen. Arnold Bunch, the Air Force’s top uniformed acquisition official, stressed that the experiment is not over (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/02/02/us-air-force-kills-combat-demo-for-light-attack-aircraft/) and that — should service leaders decide to move forward with a program of record (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/08/10/light-attack-demo-gives-off-the-shelf-planes-the-chance-to-show-off/) — its acquisition wing will be ready to initiate a competition for a new plane by the end of this year.

The Air Force is “working multiple fronts so that we can put an RFP [request for proposals] out” by December, Bunch said. “So right now, we’re still progressing down that path. I’ve not pulled back on the throttle on any way, shape or form in that area right now.”.......

To complete the experiment, the Air Force will gather further logistics and sustainment information from the contractors. It also plans to test a new exportable, commercial off-the-shelf network onboard surrogate aircraft to further prove out that capability.

“We got quite a bit of experimentation done in that area, we demonstrated that we could utilize it on those platforms,” he said. “Now what we’ll do is we’ll transition that onto some surrogate aircraft. We believe that is easily doable where we can collect the data off those and it will be applicable for what we’re trying to do with the light attack and coming up with an exportable network.”......

[chevvron]

It's unlikely Beaufighter production will re-start, so why not try the Aermacchi AMX?

[PDR1]

Given that "adapted" aircraft almost always involve too many compromises and lose sight of the core mission requirements I tend to thing that an all-new design would be a better bet. I do wonder if a variation on the SABA (P1233/5) concept would make a good COIN platform.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a94/WtMiller/3.jpg

Being a blank sheet of paper design it would need fewer compromises, but the raw performance (size and weight of a Sea Fury but with more than double the power) should give it good short-field characteristics, the large number of weapon stations should allow a flexible mission load and the fuselage configuration is just screaming out for a mixed cannon/minigun installation under he cockpit floor.

€0.00006 supplied,

PDR

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/2019/05/08/air-force-to-give-sierra-nevada-corp-a-sole-source-contract-for-light-attack-planes-but-textron-will-be-getting-an-award-too/

Air Force to give Sierra Nevada Corp. a sole-source contract for light-attack planes, but Textron will also get an award

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force on Wednesday stated its intent to sole source A-29 Super Tucanos (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/02/01/the-us-air-force-wants-to-continue-its-light-attack-experiment-will-industry-buy-in/) from Sierra Nevada Corp. and Embraer. But a similar solicitation for Textron’s AT-6 Wolverine will be forthcoming (https://www.defensenews.com/smr/federal-budget/2019/03/12/air-force-puts-35-million-in-new-budget-for-light-attack-experiment/), an Air Force spokeswoman confirmed. The Air Force intends to put out a final solicitation to the SNC-Embraer team this month and will award a contract by the end of the fiscal year, according to a May 8 notice on FedBizOpps. (https://www.fbo.gov/index.php?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=140025a95d892f75f7f3bcdde0960c40&tab=core&_cview=0)

[pr00ne]

Er, so it's NOT a sole source contract then?

[ORAC]

It’s sole source as there was no competitive bidding process. Multiple sole source contracts is not a contradiction in terms.

[etudiant]

Is not the pilot the problem in the current COIN environment?
Any cheap and cheerful COIN aircraft will be quite susceptible to ground fire. The aircraft can be a writeoff no problem, but the pilot is politically costly. These new airframes do not help in that regard.
A controller aircraft operating beyond Manpads range managing some CAS drones in real time might be a preferable option.

[pr00ne]

ORAC,

So, multiple sole source contracts. As in contracts to MULTIple sources, so NOT sole source...

[ORAC]

You, surely, must understand that, where lawyers are involved, the meaning of words and sentences should never be taken at face value....

[pr00ne]

ORAC,

But so much of the law is indeed based on the use, and meaning, of words...

[ORAC]

https://youtu.be/R1nCuryrYVk

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/05/17/us-special-ops-command-at-odds-with-air-force-over-need-for-light-attack-aircraft/

US special ops command at odds with Air Force over need for light-attack aircraft

[ORAC]

Well that’s the USAF having finally killed off that concept, or at least sidelined for the next decade or two.....

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/10/25/air-force-officially-buying-light-attack-planes/US Air Force officially buying light-attack planesWASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force is officially putting down its money to buy two different models of light-attack aircraft (https://www.defensenews.com/2019/05/08/air-force-to-give-sierra-nevada-corp-a-sole-source-contract-for-light-attack-planes-but-textron-will-be-getting-an-award-too/).

The service will purchase two to three aircraft each of the Textron Aviation AT-6 and Sierra Nevada Corporation/Embraer Defense & Security A-29 aircraft. The handful of planes (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/01/18/the-air-forces-plans-to-begin-a-light-attack-aircraft-competition-are-now-deferred-indefinitely/) will be used to support “allies and partner capacity, capability and interoperability via training and experimentation,” according to an Air Force announcement........

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/05/18/these-five-companies-could-build-a-new-armed-overwatch-plane-for-air-force-special-operators/

These five firms could build a new armed overwatch plane for US Air Force special operators

WASHINGTON — U.S. Air Force Special Operations Command has tapped five companies to compete in its armed overwatch program (https://www.militarytimes.com/opinion/commentary/2020/08/23/armed-overwatch-a-critical-special-operations-forces-requirement/) for a new attack aircraft (https://www.defensenews.com/smr/federal-budget/2020/02/10/sorry-sierra-nevada-corp-and-textron-the-us-air-force-isnt-buying-light-attack-planes/), awarding $19.2 million in contracts among the vendors.

The selected companies will now build and fly prototype aircraft in a series of demonstrations at Eglin Air Force Base, Floria. Those competitors include:
.

Leidos’ Bronco II
MAG Aerospace’s MC-208 Guardian
Textron Aviation Defense’s AT-6E Wolverine
L3Harris Technologies’ AT-802U Sky Warden
Sierra Nevada Corp.’s MC-145B Wily Coyote

Demonstrations are set to occur through March 2022, according to a solicitation on SAM.gov (http://sam.gov/). Afterward, AFSOC will determine whether any of the aircraft meet its requirements. If so, “the contractor may be requested to provide a production proposal for a follow-on production award,” the solicitation stateed.

In February, AFSOC commander Lt. Gen. James Slife said he was hopeful procurement of a new platform (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/02/16/special-ops-still-bullish-on-new-armed-overwatch-plane/)could start in 2022.

“I think we can do [the program] at relatively low risk based on what we’ve seen from the vendors who have indicated that they intend to bring platforms to demonstrate for us in the coming months,” Slife said.

AFSOC plans to buy up to 75 armed overwatch platforms to replace the U-28 Draco, and the command is looking at nondevelopmental, multimission aircraft that can be reconfigured to collect intelligence and perform close-air support for ground forces.…..

[ORAC]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1213x712/image_b9a849ad01b10e2598ec87c523983e7df4e0b03d.png

[The Helpful Stacker]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1213x712/image_b9a849ad01b10e2598ec87c523983e7df4e0b03d.png
I mean, he is wrong on many counts, but when isn't he?

(The F.E.2d was the first aircraft used for CAS with the German CL class(?) the first purpose built CAS aircraft.)

[Biggus]

I seem to remember a running thread in the original 1960s Star Trek series where Chekov claimed that every major invention or advancement in mankind was Russian in origin.

[Lonewolf_50]

I mean, he is wrong on many counts, but when isn't he?

(The F.E.2d was the first aircraft used for CAS with the German CL class(?) the first purpose built CAS aircraft.) If I dig back into my military history notes, I think I'll find a robust development of CAS in the 1920s by the USMC during various banana wars.

[ORAC]

Interestingly Kartveli was actually Georgian, not Russian, and fled ahead of the Bolsheviks…..

So Putin is claiming historical everywhere, and everyone born in, anywhere invaded by the USSR again….

KARTVELI: Innovator in Aviation (http://www.alexanderkartveli.com/)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Kartveli

[dead_pan]

Dragging the thread back on topic, I read in Flight that this procurement had been put on hold pending a review of the requirement, something about it dating back to the time of the Afghan deployment when this was seen as a good idea (i.e. cheap and rugged platform operating in an uncontested environment).

[SLXOwft]

Dragging the thread back on topic, I read in Flight that this procurement had been put on hold pending a review of the requirement, something about it dating back to the time of the Afghan deployment when this was seen as a good idea (i.e. cheap and rugged platform operating in an uncontested environment).

It was reported widely that the GAO recommended slowing procurement of the OA-1K Sky Warden as the fleet size hadn't been properly justified, Aviation Week said DoD officials planned to press on anyway although the eventual force size would be reanalysed.

U.S. Defense Department (DOD) officials have recommitted to the planned pace of L3Harris OA-1K Sky Warden procurement despite a new call from a government auditor to slow orders pending a fresh analysis,