NO casualties. Chinook destroyed after hard landing

[Gainesy]

BBC reporting Chinook deliberately destroyed in field after a hard landing in ops near Sangin. No casualties.

BBC NEWS | UK | UK Chinook damaged in Afghanistan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8229628.stm)

[scientia in alto]

Tough times for those out there, thoughts with the crew as it is bound to have been a harrowing experience.

SIA

Gainesy thanks for the no casualties note. :ok:

[Torque Tonight]

Holy s--t. Not another one. Thank God the crew are OK but disastrous to lose another cab. The Chinook force was (over)stretched 4 years ago, so this sort of attrition is unsustainable. The government are going to have to reach deep into their pockets or come up with some new ideas. A bad month for everyone.

[Muffin Themule]

The government are going to have to reach deep into their pockets or come up with some new ideas.

Are you suggesting they have their brains in their balls, or bollox for brain?

Second thoughts, perhaps you meant their back pockets.

[AHQHI656SQN]

Thankfully those involved are all okay, great news.
I have seen more dust landings than I can shake a stick at and everyone is nothing short of remarkable, I doff my cap to the crew everytime I see it. :D
The strength of character will win through, nowing the CH force. Good luck lads and stay sharp.
Tom

[Evalu8ter]

Glad to see all aboard are OK. The simple statistics of flying that many hours in that kinetic and environmental threat were bound to catch us up, and in the last couple of weeks it has - fortunately without casualties. Lucky we have plentiful attrition ac like the FJ fleet....oh, no we don't. Lucky we've got all those SABR Chinooks coming soon...oh, we took £1.5Bn out of the RW budget and didn't buy them. Never mind, let's get Mr Boeing to build us an attrition buy...what's that? We're behind the US Army, Australia, Canada, Dutch and UAE with no delivery slots until 2013+? Oh dear.

Oh well, we can always invoke the "Special Relationship" and get Barack to bump us up the queue...oh, we've released the Lockerbie bomber and soured that as well. What far sighted politicos we have.

How inconvenient of us to get embrolied in a war (yes Rifkind, a war...) where the fleets taking combat attrition (AT & RW) don't have meaningful attrition reserves....

[101BOY]

I'm sure Agusta can find us some Merlin slots....;)

Standing back for small explosion:E

[Gainesy]

I think that line closed years ago.

[anotherthing]

Evalu8ter:



http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/387080-new-chief-pointy-dangerous-things-told-keep-his-nose-out.html

read post number 9 onwards. Rifkind knows we are at war and aknowledges such. The thread originator was talking rubbish.

Glad the crew of the chinnny are OK, airframes are replaceable...

[Engines]

Evalu8ter:

Fully agree - thank our lucky stars we had no casualties. Now, it's all down to shifting metal and electronics.

Great points - this is pretty much the scenario you and other wise heads have forecast for so long. We are committed to a long war and cannot sustain the effort - so what were our senior leadership doing all this time?

Surely JHC and the guys in town weren't reporting 'green' for our fleet sustainability? Or even 'double counting' airframes so that we 'met' all our commitments? Surely not....

Tough times - but we have great people who can get through it. Sadly, we are now unable to give them the kit they really need. Short term solutions are few in number, but I can't help thinking that we should throw some money at the Sea Kings sitting in storage and get some more 'Jungly Mk 6s' generated. Yes, they aren't a Chinook, but they are tough and useful airframes, and could be made available quickly.

Desperate times, desperate measures....

[ZH875]

airframes are replaceable...

Not if Gordon Broon gets his way they aren't.

Methinks it is time to fertilise the poppy crop areas with Agent Orange.

[Evalu8ter]

Anotherthing,
Mea Culpa. Sorry Sir Malcom.....

[knocker88]

Glad the Crew are ok! Glad all the Pax are ok.Glad we have loads more Chinooks at ODI to replace the ones we have lost......

[Torque Tonight]

airframes are replaceable...

I'll believe it when I see it.

[SCAFITE]

As a simple ex Stacker do you not think that the shortage of Helicopter which was blurted out by all and his dog, will be a large home goal and we have told Terry Taliban where we are at our weakest in the stan. So to put yourself in the mind of the Taliban, why bother trying to kill soldiers and put all you effort into downing Helicopter (esp Chinooks). This is will hurt big time and as stated on posts in this tread, we will run out of replacements soon.

So since its 70 years since the start of WW2 today let start thinking we are at war, so loose lips sink ships and keep any of our shortages under out hats and in the military house, and not let the Taliban know our weak points.

[knocker88]

Um I think the Taleban know about our helicopter shortages without reading this.

[SCAFITE]

When we destroyed these airframes due to the fact it was not safe to recover them, why did they not leave them for a while, but keeping a beedy eye on them and wait for Terry to swarm over them like flies and then bomb the f**kers. If you have to loose a Helicopter you should make the most of it.

[Spanish Waltzer]

...because the chances are the first people to 'swarm over' such an interesting wreck will be the local kids and then think of the headlines when we cause that sort of carnage...:uhoh::uhoh:

[SCAFITE]

So we have destroyed a airframe due to the fact a load of kids where in the area and would probley be first on the wreck. We will loose this war due to Health and Safety, worried about the locals, worried about what the papers will say, and worst of all fighting a war with their hand tied behind their backs. Nobody wants to kill kids, but the airframe must have been destroyed duie to the fact the Taliban where hot on its tail. If there was no armed Taliban in the area and only kids and villages it should have been recovered.

[jez_s]

Hmm, one would expect the next question asked after the first one of 'are the P.O.B ok' would be can we SAFELY recover the airframe if not Kaboom!

[Jackonicko]

Should we have an Mi-26 or an S-64 sitting on standby waiting to recover downed aircraft, rather than exercising the Paveway method of taking them off the books.

[jez_s]

But wouldn't that make an already big target even bigger?. One RPG in the wrong place at the right time could result in two downed aircraft. (And that scenario doesn't bare thinking about!).

[Jackonicko]

It depends why the downed aircraft has gone down, and how close to the area of the initial incident, surely?

If it has been a precautionary forced landing that was not the immediate result of enemy action, then recovery would surely be an option?

And if there's time to secure the site for long enough to recover the crew/pax, and to recover some equipment, and to mount some kind of investigation, but not enough to secure the area for an extended period, then again, lifting equipment out is surely a good idea, even if there is insufficient time to repair an aircraft enough for it to be able to fly out under its own power?

[EGGP]

Would even these heavy lift choppers be able to lift a chinook at that altitude and temperature?

[SCAFITE]

The rescue of Crew and Pax is the highest priority, but this thing is going to happen again and again if we are going to be in this country for some time. So being able to save important assets will have to be looked at, and not take the kaboom option every time. Are we saying we have no control on the ground. These are £40 million a chuck assets, yes its going to take effort to secure the Area and make it safe for the recovery teams to go in, but its got to be worth it in the long run as the £40 million a chuck assets save lives big time when they are working and in our hands. In a war assets are sometimes as important as your personnel and risks have to be taken to recover them. Don't get me wrong I would not risk a bean to recover a Land Rover or a Truck or a tin hat, but one of the most important asset we have in theatre bet your bottom dollar.

[wokawoka]

I love reading the comments of all you guys who operate in this theatre regularly and know how this aircraft should have been recovered.:ugh: I am sure you are right and this decision (probably made by OC JAG) was not carefully thought about.

Come on MGD where are you to shoot this lot down???

[timex]

Scafite, would you like to be in the outer cordon for about 12-24 hours while the recovery is planned and then carried out? Also bear in mind that another cab lifting with a very heavy underslung load is going to be a very attractive (and easy) target.

[Pilot Pacifier]

Dust...

20 plus tonnes in a sandy environment = biggest dust cloud in the world = ZERO vis = ......

:=

You fill in the blank!

[Gainesy]

Plus the Civvy crews of the Mi-26 would likely tell you to take your head for a dump.

[SCAFITE]

No I would not and it would be very risky and I am sure if they had to blow this aircraft up it was the right call. But sorry this will happen again and again, and I know it would be awful to be in this team which had to do the recovery and secure the area for however long it takes. This recovery type of operation some where down the line will have to be done and tactics and equipment will be needed. I am no expert and I am sure experts or folks with experiance are abound on the forum.

Are we saying once a major and important asset has to land for what ever reason, that this asset is lost or we dont control any of the ground in Afghanistan.

[West Coast]

Jacko
I don't know the details of this situation enough to make anything conclusive but in other cases the envirnomental factors made recovery impossible. Often the terrain doesn't lend itself to recoveries not to mention the altitude and resultant DA from the high temps. These are performance and safety considerations, let alone the tactical considerations of keeping tommy taliban at bay during a very, very vulnerable phase of a recovery operation.

[whowhenwhy]

Yes SACFITE, they are suggesting that we do not control the ground. There are too few boots and too much space to ever think about controlling the ground. The Soviets couldn't do it with far more troops than we've (as in NATO) got deployed. As has been said, OC JAG will have had to make the call, almost certainly in association with OC 1310 and the PW option will not have been taken lightly!

Stay safe out there girls and boys ;)

[aviationdoc]

Do we know whether any of the aircrew sustained any injuries during the forced landing.
As some of you may know the rear crew do not have access to crash worthy seats.
There have been numerous attempts to secure these and different reasons are given ,as to why it is not possible at the moment .
Do we know whether the Mark 3 will have them?

[Jackonicko]

Only asked the question.

And I'm not criticising the decision this time, as without a dedicated asset in place and on standby, recovery is never going to be an option.

The question was whether having such an asset available would not be useful.

The consensus seems to be that it wouldn't.

[barnstormer1968]

I too have wondered about differing recovery options.
Upon reading the above posts, there are many valid points.

Some things stand out, and some things have crossed my mind here.

While I appreciate that it seems we had to blow this aircraft up, as we do not control the ground. I understand that many would not like to spend 24-48 hours on site, but then also realise many many army personnel spend much longer than this totally surrounded as a matter of course (but then I am in no way volunteering myself or anyone else for the task, nor am I saying its a good idea).

I realise that we do not have enough SH or AH in theatre (I also have no idea how much would be the ideal amount, but guess it's not what we have now (because I don't need to know)).

So, here is a possibly contentious question. Do we have to recover the whole aircraft, or just destroy it?. Could it be useful to recover a part of the frame (such as front or rear)? I realise that it would take for ever to disassemble an airframe correctly (not made pleasant by unfriendly locals), but could we just take one end, so as to retrieve engines or avionics?

If this would be of any use, it would also mean that a lighter load would be recovered. As for the means or separating the frame, the only quick option I know of would be such things as: chainsaws (the type used by SF/rescue and bank robbers), disc cutters or 'sawing it with miniguns:}. These may be totally stupid ideas, but they they are only ''starters for ten", as doing things correctly is out of the question it seems.

I only say these things, as has been pointed out, we are here for the long haul, and I am sure many of you have worked out just how long it would take to run out of Chinooks at the present attrition rate.

PLEASE NOTE. I am only putting forward ideas, and would not volunteer myself or any of you to do any of the tasks involved, and will declare that I am sat safe and sound in the UK.

Lastly, but very not least, I am very glad to hear everyone was picked up OK.:ok:

[angels]

Folks, Have a read of this Attack State Red: Amazon.co.uk: Col. Richard Kemp, Chris Hughes: Books (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0718155068/?tag=googhydr-21&hvadid=3037258856&ref=pd_sl_7e8yhdmcp8_e)

This is about last year's tour in the Stan by the Royal Anglians. It shows quite clearly why equipment has to be denied to the enemy. It is just not practical to potter around the Green Zone with chainsaws.

Wokkas only go in there with Apache escorts and then only to pick up T-1 casualties. The bravery of all involved is astonishing.

[Melchett01]

Would even these heavy lift choppers be able to lift a chinook at that altitude and temperature?

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/helicopters/size/mi26_01.jpg

[West Coast]

The piccie while nice isn't conclusive by any means that a tactical recovery was feasible.

[ThreadBaron]

'tactical' and 'feasible'. These words say it all!

Now, where's me Spear & Jackson rip saw?

[jayteeto]

They underslung one back to odiham years ago on the day we 'broke up' for xmas. It was a very very windy day and if the pilot had gone past the airfield, he would not have been able to go fast enough to get back against the wind. So without giving exact speeds, I would suggest an underslung chinook going at snails pace home would need a volunteer crew who are even braver than the normal crews. For those of you who have not underslung aircraft/large boxes/light boxes/boats (ouch)/wings/etc, it is a very challenging task!!! They do not fly well........

[TheWizard]

Those who have read the incident signal will realise exactly why this aircraft was 'denied'. If you don't have access to such information then you probably don't need to.:)

[Melchett01]

West Coast - you're right. It is a nice pic and doesn't suggest that a recovery in this scenario was feasible. However, it does provide a response to an early question about the technical feasability of using ac such as the Mi-26 to carry a Chinook out of the area.

However, given the highly politicized, risk-adverse times we find ourselves in, it really is a moot point. We will always deny then enemy equipment rather than try to recover it because of the political implications of further losses incurred in any recovery operation.

[Al R]

YouTube - Last flight of the Skycrane 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lQdqJj0OgM&feature=related)

Forgetting the tactical 'what ifs', I wonder how much would have continued to have been saved if there was still this capability?

I concede that I don't know the facts and how precarious the extraction and indeed, whether there was anything worth saving, but in principle, I am sure that a ground action could have been at least considered if there was something able to be pulled off the shelf. Surely, with Apache overhead, and troops quickly on the ground, there would have been a limit to how Taleban/Mujahideen would have wanted to have been sucked into a potentially lucrative (for us) death trap.

My only hope (and I certainly don't intend to be double guessing those out on the ground) is that this doesn't become SOP because to do otherwise might be all a bit 'too dangerous'. Like I said, just a thought based on minimal info and I continue to take my hat off to those doing the job out there.

[barnstormer1968]

The Tarhe's (CH 54's)are still flying, but are now civilian are are appearing daily on the news, putting out fires in the U.S.

As far as I am aware (based on paper/internet study, not actual experience) the Mi 26 is far more capable.

[minigundiplomat]

Oh boy!

Mi26's are a very 'in demand' asset to have sitting around just incase a chinook needs picking up.

In order to lift a chinook, you need to do stuff to it (no need for details), which is rather time consuming, and probably best completed if not under contact, or even with the taliban within the area.

Heavy rotorcraft in the desert lack normal performance (hot n high) and kick up an almighty dustcloud, hardly ideal for underslinging another aircraft.

The chinook put down, and was blown up. Right decision under the circumstances - no ifs, buts or maybe's.

If it is such a valuable asset, then you need to elect a PM willing to buy more. Other than that, lets not turn a near miss into op certain death and lose another aicraft trying to rescue the first.

At the end of the day, aircraft are lost at war - look how many aircraft were lost during WWII, Vietnam and Korea. We were fortunate the crew were alright, it might have been a different story had we tried to tw@t around airlifting the frame from situ.

[Al R]

Thanks Barnstormer (I understand there is a 747 drencher.. :} )

I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to have done MGD, I don't know the facts. I just hope that if we do have to destroy anything we leave lying around, we also extract suitable recompense at the point of sale. I'd be interested to know though, if timings were that critical that we couldn't at least deploy troops quickly to retake/secure the ground as we did for XV230, and then support them with air and recover slow time.

Not second guessing, just curious and glad the troops got out ok.

[minigundiplomat]

Understand that perfectly Al.

As a taxpayer, you have a right to know why we blew something costing a lot of money up. From the little I know, a cordon didnt sound like an option.

[Been Accounting]

Could some sporting soul recover a large piece of Chinook wreckage and return it to the UK?

I am sure I could find the perfect home for it.

Delivered (stealthily) overnight it could sit here ... The Fourth Plinth (http://www.london.gov.uk/fourthplinth/index.jsp) ... as a memorial and a reminder to expedite procurement.

It could be removed when equipment levels are at mutually acceptable levels.

[barnstormer1968]

Thanks Minigundiplomat.

Originally by MGD
The chinook put down, and was blown up. Right decision under the circumstances - no ifs, buts or maybe's.

If it is such a valuable asset, then you need to elect a PM willing to buy more. Other than that, lets not turn a near miss into op certain death and lose another aicraft trying to rescue the first.

At the end of the day, aircraft are lost at war - look how many aircraft were lost during WWII, Vietnam and Korea. We were fortunate the crew were alright, it might have been a different story had we tried to tw@t around airlifting the frame from situ.hanks for your post

I have just given myself a good talking too (for falling into the we must save everything at all costs theory). I think we need really need leaders (is that the right word) who will buy enough kit (as you, me and many others keep saying), rather than trying to scrape by with too few, and resorting to buying second hand gear, or making cut and shut chinooks (yes I do know it wasn't quite like that).:ok:

[Sospan]

Well it can be done. Good job all round !!! :ok:


Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | 3 SCOTS thwart Taliban to recover US Chinook (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/3ScotsThwartTalibanToRecoverUsChinook.htm)

[airborne_artist]

Major Matt Munro, Officer Commanding Alpha (Grenadier) Company, said:
"I'm delighted that this operation went so well.


Please tell me he wasn't christened Matthew :ok:

[arandcee]

If they'd have had their wits about them they'd have declared 'finders keepers' - doh! :rolleyes:

(Good job! :D)