Flying Wing ???

[SPIT]

Hi
After seeing a news article ??? stating that an AMERICAN had designed and planned this just what is the difference between a Russian ECTOPLAN (please excuse the spelling if it is wrong) and the FLYING WING as both seem to use exactly the SAME PRINCIPLE !!! :confused::confused::confused:

[Brian Abraham]

Not sure what you mean by SAME PRINCIPLE. One is a ground effect vehicle whereas the other is an aircraft.
Ground effect vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle)
Flying wing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_wing)

[barnstormer1968]

HI.
As you mention the article says 'designed and planned', are you saying the article did not also say built?

Jack Northrop's flying wing designs go back a long way, and have an interesting history (including the usual political interference), but several models flew.

As Brian Abraham mentions, flying wings and GEV's such as the Ekranoplan are very different beasts. I am curious to know if the article is referring to some other American designed item.
Can you post the article, or post a link please?

[air pig]

Hi,

Where Northrop's flying wings influenced by the Horton brothers, the 1930-40s German designers ??? Appreciate that most designs unless truly radical evolve in different countries at about the same time.

Air pig

[Fareastdriver]

In 1944 Horten had achieved Goering's requirement to put his flying wings into production. 1,000 kph, 1,000 kgs, 1,000 kms range. Owing to logistic problems caused by Allied bombing they never came to fruition. After the war Allied aircraft manufacturers jumped on to the developments that the Germans had generated.
Northdrop was one that gave the flying wing it a go and so was Armstrong Whitworth in the UK. Both developed, ultimately, jet propelled flying wings. Both gave it up after a few years.
I believe that there is a Horten in Smithsonian awaiting its fate.

[The B Word]

Air Pig

This flying wing from Northrop called the N-1M first flew in July 1941...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Northrop_N-1M_Udvar-Hazy.jpg/300px-Northrop_N-1M_Udvar-Hazy.jpg

Whereas the Horton brothers did not even produce a glider until 1941 that resembled Northrop's designs...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/22/Horten_Ho_IV.JPG/300px-Horten_Ho_IV.JPG

That said, the Horten's design for a jet flying wing, the Horton 229 first flew in Feb 1945 (and crashed within 2 hours!) - well ahead of the US prototypes at the time. They recently built a mock-up of one for a National Geographic TV program called "Hitler's Stealth Fighter" (or something like that). Here is a picture of their replica being measured for Radar Cross Section (RCS)...

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/attachments/replica-fighters/3792d1246390133-horton-wings-horten.jpg

If I remember rightly the RCS was reduced by about 25% compared to comparable sized aircraft of the day :eek:

The B Word

[The B Word]

PS

The Brit offering - the Armstrong Whitworth AW52 didn't fly until 1947

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Armstrong_Whitworth_AW_52_in_1946.jpg

[henry crun]

The B Word: This site disagrees with your assertion that Horton brothers did not even produce a glider until 1941 that resembled Northrop's designs.
The Horten Flying Wings (http://www.warbirdforum.com/horten.htm)

[The B Word]

It's all in the reading. I said that the Hortons did not produce a glider that resembled Northrop's flying wing until 1941...

Jack Northrop became interested in the development of the cleanest possible airplane early in his career as an aircraft designer. In 1923, as an engineer for Donald Douglas in Santa Monica, California, Northrop continually explored advanced designs for aircraft, seeking new ways to eliminate drag and the severe penalties in aircraft performance it imposed. Even then, he envisioned an airplane without protruding surfaces that did not contribute in some way to lift. He even undertook the design of a tailless, all-wing glider as a "pastime" project, but never finished the aircraft, due to other commitments and lack of funds.

Northrop left Lockheed in 1928, and formed a small company, the Avion Corporation, in the Burbank/Glendale area, to further explore the idea of a tailless craft. His 1929 Flying Wing evolved, an aircraft unusual in appearance and performance, but more noted for its unique all-metal, stressed skin, multi-cellular construction. Although financial considerations forced suspension of further development of the airplane, its unique structure paved the way for major Northrop contributions to aviation in the perfection of all-metal construction.


He was dabbling the same time as the Horten Bros, but it is said that his aircraft was the first successful powered flying wing (some of them still fly today!). Take a look at the pic below which was taken in 1940 of the ICI-1M which "flew" in 1940 (it got airborne accidentally!).

http://www.century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/flying%20wings/images6/8.jpg

He couldn't claim success in 1940 apparently as he was unable to get the aircraft out of ground effect at Muroc! (see below at about 10ft).

http://www.century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/flying%20wings/images6/11.jpg

[Jackonicko]

The AW52 may not have flown until 1947, but it had been preceded by a sub-scale glider that flew in '43.

Moreover, with its laminar flow wing, pressurised cockpit and advanced flying controls it was a thoroughly modern aeroplane, with the practicality you'd expect from using Derwent power.

It appeared a number of times in my Dad's logbook during his years at the RAE, and he liked it almost as much as the Lancs that were (along with Hastings, Lincolns and Canberras) his day-to-day bread and butter.

He liked the Blackburn YA5, too, which he thought much nicer than the rival Fairey type that became the Gannet.

[astir 8]

B Word

your piccie is the Horten IV (which was indeed designed in 1941). However the Horten I flying wing flew in 1934, the II in 1935 and the III in 1938.

Plus Alexander Lippisch was there with tailless gliders before the Horten brothers.

There is currently a "new build" Horten IV in progress in Germany. It will be a sight to see fly. Allegedly however the IV shown in the museum did not perform as well as expected in tests in the USA in the 1950's (Marin Simons, Sailplanes 1920 - 1945)

"There is nothing wrong with a tailless aircraft which cannot be cured by fitting a tail" - I can't remember who said that though!

[chevvron]

Wasn't Robert Kronfeld killed in an AW52?

[Kieron Kirk]

Wasn't Robert Kronfeld killed in an AW52?

No, a GAL56.

Ciarain.

[avionic type]

I was on detatchment from Gib to either Bally Kelly or Aldergrove in 1952/53 when some firm "Shorts"? flew a full scale model of a flying wing complete with test pilot, towed off by an aircraft I can't remember , it got to about 60'in the air dropped a wing and crashed luckly he slipped the tow rope befor he crashed and escaped with minor injuries but the plane was wrecked .
anyone got any clues?

[chevvron]

Short Sherpa towed by a Short Sturgeon twin. (Aeroplane Monthly article years ago is how I know!) Actually not a flying wing as such as it had an extended fuselage carrying its fin and rudder, but it had innovative ailerons!

[avionic type]

Thank you for that , I know it is "off thread " can you remember what Short Bomber was called ,it had the engines mounted on top of one another and was told it was very easy to maintain.
by the by now I recall the Sherpa was made of wood and we were told not to touch it as they wanted to see if anything had caused the accident

[Jig Peter]

Name: Sperrin. Lost out to the Valiant (and no wonder!)

[S'land]

avionic type:

Do you mean the Short S.A.4 Sperrin built as insurance against the Valiant being a failure? Only two were built.

[avionic type]

Thats the one , after what disaster that overcame the Valiant[ They were grounded all at once, spar problems I believe like the early Viscount but they were changed ]perhaps they should have built more, Shorts always built their aircraft like brick built toilets.
thanks again .

[Brian Abraham]

Do you mean the Short S.A.4 Sperrin built as insurance against the Valiant being a failure
S'land, If wiki is anything to go by the answer be yes.

Short Sperrin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Sperrin)

[aviate1138]

The B Word implied Jack Northrop was ahead of the Horten Brothers.

Somehow the Northrop Alpha [ Jack's first attempt was hardly a flying wing was it?]

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/Picture19-2.jpg

compared to the original Horten Ho-1 [not too successful either] but it was a tailless aeroplane.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/Picture20.jpg

Horten brothers win hands down, especially with their just prewar and wartime designs.

Plus they were on a huge learning curve.

Ho IV
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/Picture21-1.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/Picture25-2.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/Picture24-2.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/Picture23-2.jpg
Horton Ho9

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/Picture22-1.jpg

[OBAman]

This was not a two horse race. Swept wing tailles aircraft predate both Northrop and Horten efforts by several years.

During the 20's and 30's several different 'Westland Pterodactyl' types were flown, culminating in a turret fighter in the early 30's. Even earlier was J W Dunne who successfully flew tailless swept biplanes as early as 1910 and supplied one (at least) to the US Navy before the first world war.

[The B Word]

Aviate 1138

Gliders vs Powered FWs in my opinion are hardly comparable. I think OBAman is right - it was far from a "2 horse race". The Hortens had some good ideas and plans, but so did Jack Nothrop - all around the same timescales (and I don't believe that either copied each other deliberately). I just get a little tired of the "Germany led the flying wing development" argument that some insist on pushing.

All the best

The B Word

[aviate1138]

The B Word

The reason the Horten Brothers got the "leading the flying wing development" was probably because in the USA only Jack Northrop ever got mentioned.

Plus the Hortens solution to controlling the pitch, yaw, roll axis' was elegant and ingenious to boot.

Of course it was more than a 2 horse race but to say gliders and powered are not comparable is to ignore the fact that some of the Horten designs were originally for powered flight but the engines were made unavailable. Either Pulse Jet or Jet Turbine engines became unobtainable. Adolph.

No one was pushing.

All the best

Aviate 1138

PS As a kid I remember seeing an/the AW 52 flying overhead [South Bucks] and what a beautiful sight it was. Something about flying wings that gets my attention.....

[Shackman]

Slightly off topic perhaps:

I had the pleasure of a holding posting waiting for MOTU at HQ Coastal Command in 1968-69, where one of my duties was Oi/c Records and historical documents which were held in the old HQCC building - a lovely old country house which also doubled as the Officers' Mess. One of the documents I happened to read detailed the Shackleton replacement (competition!) and gave a number of detailed plans of the different submissions - which by that time had been 'won' by the Nimrod.

However, the most striking plan was essentially a flying wing with (I think) four engines and not that far different to what is now the B2. It also had space for a large crew with a good lookout area, as well as the ability to carry a large weapon load, as well as projected extended range due to low fuel consumption. It was obviously a serious contender but had eventually been discounted because none of the (then) kipper fleet airfields could take it - runways and hangers needed widening being just part of the problems.

Unfortunately not long after I saw the document the whole building was destroyed by fire and all the historical documents and memorabilia were just ash.

Now my question - I've seen no reference to this aircraft since then. Has anyone else out there in ppruneland come across this (mythical) beast.

Pertama

[The B Word]

PS As a kid I remember seeing an/the AW 52 flying overhead [South Bucks] and what a beautiful sight it was. Something about flying wings that gets my attention.....

You're a very lucky individual to have lived around the exciting period of the British aircraft industry. :ok:

[Dick Whittingham]

Aviate, what was the Horten control system?

IIRC the problem with flying wings is that on a conventional cambered airfoil the CP moves forward as alpha increases - basically an unstable movement. For that reason FWs used a reflex trailing edge - which you can see clearly on library shots of the big Northrops - that gave the opposite movement. Is this so?

Dick