Air India's turn around plan

[sierra_november]

http://home.airindia.in/SBCMS/Downloads/AirIndia_Embarks_on_a_Turn_around_PlanI.pdf

[Wannabe Flyer]

If one were to read thru this in it's entirety it is a sorry pathetic lame finger pointing exercise. They don't have the guts to either assign blame or give a realistic solution.

Have they ever flown their own premium service and compared it to other airlines? Premium does not mean a large seat up front but the entire experience.

Cargo load factors declining, Well they don't have options or accessibility and their staff work like govt officers on tea breaks.

1) New Aircraft are needed and old leases and older aircraft retired, but they say the opposite as there is huge austerity drive and save money drive the govt has in place.

2) Parking space for lifetime employees who are in many cases counterproductive, instead they are saying manpower agreement review.

I am sure many more shallow and kinder garden like business strategies will be put forward by good people who are living under a populist shadow of an incumbent government that is scared of the vote bank and bad publicity

In order for this airline to rise it needs to first fall. Govt should not step in when 30,000 employees start screaming bloody murder and then start it as another carrier with the govt a minority stake holder.

Guess what the removal of AI capacity will do to boost the other airlines bottom lines. :D

[Left Wing]

the removal of AI capacity will do to boost the other airlines bottom lines.:ok::ok:
let AI die and the pvt airlines can pickup the quality staff and the routes...drop the stupid 5 yr ban on pvt airlines to go Intl routes...

[rdr]

i agree left wing. but, nothing will be done until they suck every drop of blood from the country for themselves, like they have been doing for 30 years.

India has a market for around a 100 widebodies immediately, and possibly another 150 in the years to come.
until A/I and the DGCA are immersed in the Bay of Bengal, Emirates, SIA, Qatar, Etihad, etc, etc, are, and will be laughing all the way to the bank.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Same problem in all PSU's and life in India. People get so used to the freebies and handouts, that they cry bloody murder when they are asked to work for it. Yes I am sure there are some quality people there in AI, but you knwo as they say, a few bad apples!

And not to forgot gopi and his 1 buck fares that are part of creating this hand out culture :ugh:

[Schumi - Red Baron]

And not to forgot gopi and his 1 buck fares that are part of creating this hand out culture :ugh:


What's his fault in this... All the top officials in AI (or any other airline or company) are not paid to copy others but to use their own mind and take good appropriate decisions. :hmm:

On what basis are you saying that all this was started by Gopi.:confused:

[ExpClimb]

air india is in the unenviable position of being the favorite punching bag of the customer(which in majority of the cases is well deserved) on one hand and the scapegoat for all the misdeeds of the ministry and its own bosses on the other.
i agree it was never a lean mean airline capable of holding its own against other competitors without the government support, but i feel its current state is not entirely its own fault. a loss figure off around 5000 crores annually is unprecedented, it has a wage bill of around 3000 crores annual which is higher than say jet airways which i guess is in the neighborhood of 1200 crores( and hiring roughly a 1/3 of air india employee, so it gives u an idea that the salaries are more or less at par). so even if we were to have their employees as bonded labor and work for free, this airline still would make a loss of 2000 crore annually. so something isnt quite right when we blame just the over paid employees. in my view the following points are worth a consideration
the routes it flies, for eg. emirates operates 5 wide body flights daily to mumbai, and air india operates a 321 and a 777 flight daily to DXB out of BOM, not to mention the mind bogling destinations air arabia flies to india, and our national carrier flts to SHJ can be counted on your fingers.air india actually curtailed operations to middle east their cash cow, when the private airlines started flying there.
a airlines which never had turnover over 300 crores decided to purchase aircraft worth over 20000 crores at one go and the guys in the ministry who did this expect it not to make a loss?
so, you saddle it with aircrafts brand new ones, but it they arent deployed on competitive routes cause u want to benefit your bum chums airline and when the loss starts piling up u point at the employees and say- dude there are over 1200 guys in air india making over 25 lakh a year,well im curious whats that figure for any private airlines with a similar fleet, those numbers have to be 99.9% flight crew only.
what it needs is the same as any other airline would. honest leadership and a good weeding of non performing employee/and assets unfortunately it has none of the former and plenty of the latter

[Wannabe Flyer]

He started a non viable low cost model that never made money, sold and ran when he could. In the bargain others were forced to follow suit and it became a situation which is hard to get out of.

His dream to make every Indian fly is now making it a nightmare for every airline that has to cope with a passenger who demands the Rs 1 fare. Once you give a handout it is very hard to take back.

It is my opinion that people who come in for a short while and do stuff like this spoil the business for other serious players. I am willing to bet his cargo business will go the same way.

Again purely my views which are strongly biased against fly by night players like Gopi.

[ABCD Pilot]

Hey,

I mean it's a little unfair to say this guy didn't know what he was doing. I don't think anybody would predict a ton of airlines to instantly emerge and go crazy. Remember, LCC in India are the only ones making money. Wait a minute, in most countries LCC are the only one making money? You can't fault the guy, he had a GOOD business model, that needed time to make money. Why is it that everybody is going back to LCC? OKay, they are all bleeding, but the big international carriers don't really make money on their economy passengers, they make it on their high paying Business/First Class tickets. I think Sydney to LA is something like 20gs first class. Yummy!

His cargo ops will do well. He's setting it up for foreign investors, hence the name 360 -worldwide. Fedex, intel, IBM, and singapore airlines are all making a bid. He's setting up the infrastructure in the country, and he knows what he is doing.

However, when you deal on cargo "contracts" thats when things can go south. Fedex/UPS don't contract other shipping companies to the large scale that say Korean Air Cargo, Singapore, Evergreen, ATLAS, Polar, or any of the other big carriers do. So when the contract goes, they are stuck with a very expensive fleet of paper weights.

I think the key in Deccan 360 is that they have both Domestic and Foreign industrial and manufacturing interest in the company, therefore locking the investors in. It's more then just an airline, but a cost reducing improvement in Indian's infrastructure, which will benefit people worldwide.

India has suffered more then any other country from threethings, and it shows in every aspect of life, especially the current Airline Industry:

Over-population, over taxation, and poor infrastrcture. All three seem to hurt each other. Deccan 360 looks to be combating the poor infrastructure, and there are no other players in the market so they'll have a monopoly. Once you establish a monopoly in the cargo industry ( UPS/Fedex) and grow to a certain point, it's impossible for other carriers to enter.

Just my 2 cents.

[Al Fakhem]

It's always the early bird that gets the worms. Gopi had a brilliant business idea which could only work based on certain underlying factors remaining in his favour. Of course, the idea of LCC is not his, he simply copied success stories from the US and Europe and adapted them to Indian conditions. That his concept spawned so many copycats who followed him blindly speaks volumes about the "professionalism" of all these MBAs no doubt involved!

[ABCD Pilot]

Yeah, not an original idea. It is funny how people in India say he is the CREATOR OF LOW COST CARRIERS! haha.

[Schumi - Red Baron]

He started a non viable low cost model that never made money


I think that you don't know much about aviation then.

If it's non viable then why is AI planning to go this way.:confused:

[Al Fakhem]

Schumi: the only reason AI is considering the LCC way is that they have been reduced to a domestic (or best regional) role. You can't do LCC on long haul, that's why even Ryanair won't touch it.

[Schumi - Red Baron]

the only reason AI is considering the LCC way is that they have been reduced to a domestic (or best regional) role. You can't do LCC on long haul, that's why even Ryanair won't touch it.

If LCC was non viable then AI would not be going that way even though they are more of a domestic carrier now days.

Spice jet, Indigo all made some profit last quarter but Jet and Kingfisher didn't.

My point is that why is LCC considered non viable by some people here. I might be missing something but would like to know more about it.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Gopi's model was non viable. Currently if one were to check the low cost models of other airlines such as Indigo and Spice jet (the 2 that have just declared profits apparently), they are not selling their tickets at rock bottom prices like he was. Deccan was looking at alternate sources of revenue as an income churner (ads painted on the aircraft, strict 15 kg baggage, endorsements etc, and I doubt he broke even on operational costs on even one route. This in my lingo is a subsidy something what the Indian public has gotten used to living with ie: Frequent handouts like our govt keeps giving us

Indigo and Spice jet fares as always lower than full service but not by such a huge gap as Deccan was. Eg 9W is 20000 r/t they will be 16000. Deccan was probably trying to sell at 6000, which is plain idiotic.

Yes Schumi I am not an aviator, but I clock about 10,000 miles a month at times. To my untrained aviator eyes, but trained business eyes, Indigo is actually getting a better yield per aircraft with some of the following

1. Fewer crew and staff per aircraft
2. Simple straight forward Paid food service ( removal of hot beverages, if one of you could share how much that saves in fuel and time I would much appreciate as I would like to tell the next co passenger off with this educated info when he/she argues with the crew and complains there is no tea on a 45 minute flight).
3. Mind boggling rapid turn arounds. (At GOI yesterday Indigo was last in first out 22 mins by my watch, followed by spice, jetlite jet, KF and then AI which was first in last out 3 hours on the ground and counting when I left).

Overall while people might make noise etc, I feel Indigos service, aircraft (their crew seem to refresh the toilet after every 2 passengers use it) and no frills no mess service as well as only marginaly lower fares (yet enough) is enough to make it a correct LCC model for the Indian Environment.

And oh yes I can live without the pan walla who put his feet up and spat into the seat pocket on the Deccan flight. He was there because the ticket to Chennai was only 21 bucks round trip and he wanted to fly. Came back on the next flight for the price cheaper than a 3 hour Hindi movie as told in his words to me That to me is a non viable model and no tall claim to let the common man fly.

Just my Rs 1 plus fuel surcharge thought!

[Wannabe Flyer]

If it's non viable then why is AI planning to go this way.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

AI is not exactly a role model or path breaker in business. They are probably going this way because some idiot in the government started reading about LCC a bit late in life and wanted to earn some brownie points.

Lets discuss only if AI LCC becomes a money churner for them and that too in the exact formula that gopi adopted.

[IndAir967]

I definitely would like to buy some extremely valuable points from wannabe.. especially about indigo..
infact in my opinion spice jet also aint doing bad..
Aviation is more or less a pretty straight forward industry..
What matters the most is planning and execution..

Now when we start talking about India..
We must first understand that the guys who actually were a support
of the boom were IT industry folks.. Now Aviation is a dependant industry meaning, our growth is directly proportional to the growth of other industries and this law holds good for any where across the world..

Now when we talk about Indigo..or even Spice to an extent..
They fly a relatively new aircraft.. their cabin crew are trained to please ..
food for sale.. water for free.. Pricing is modestly done enabling an upper middle class guy to actually consider shelling down his money than travel by train for days and nights..
Now thats exactly what an low cost airline should look for..
The pricing has to be done in such an way that the customer should think that he deserves to travel by air than in the train..

This is the exact strategy that an low cost carrier should adopt..

Now let us look at Full Service Airlines..
1. Full Service Airlines must realise that they are in for the gamble
in the industry more than the low cost carriers as primarily the passengers who travel on these routes are executives travelling on their company paid tickets.. And when the economy strikes hard.. u have cost cutting done by companies.. and full service airlines are obviously meant to see an fall in load..
2. The most important aspect with FSAs timings and aircraft utilization.
Now though both the points apply even to low cost carriers .. FSA dont have any kind of freedom for wrong planning..

Look at this ..
U ll have an Jet Airways 737800 departing bangalore for bangalore at 6.00am followed by an Kingfisher 320232 departing at 6.15am while an IC would be leaving on the same route at 6.30 am..
(timings are slightly exagerated)
Now the point is why operate two medium haul planes with just 40 pax on both ? As a result both face losses ..
Am not talking about IC here as no body cares about what they carry..

Also by 7am number of LCA crews are getting ready with their preflightchecks..

The point here is..
1. Change your aircraft to something smaller.
2. Be more sensible with your timings.

Now one fella that has been clever according to me here is
Paramount..
They call Y class as J class and as a result a lot people think they get to travel in business class with higher than Y class price .. they dont realise that they ve just paid for the costliest seat in the economy class on the same route..
Now when i am an airline owner and I have so many unemployed young CPL s around.. what would I do.. I would obviously try to make a profit out of it..and thats exactly they are doing..(am not justifying btw)

I would say 70 seats airplanes are the most idealistic for indian full sevice airlines unless they have deployed their 150 seater planes on high density routes such as DEL-BOM or BLR-BOM..

At the end it all comes down to proper planning and strategy execution..
If only I had the money to start an airline..:rolleyes:

[IndAir967]

Also a small clarification..
I belive NACIL is not becoming an Low Cost Carrier..
It will only offer an low cost service on low density routes
while it will continue to remain an Full Service Airline on High Density Routes..

If properly executed.. Air India is all set to reach great heights..

[babboo57]

Its funny the way these wise and highly intelligent chintoos talk of Air India
as a non-entity in this forum. if it didnt get them medically down, they would
readily give their right arm to be in this kachra airline !

[Schumi - Red Baron]

Also a small clarification..
I believe NACIL is not becoming an Low Cost Carrier..
It will only offer an low cost service on low density routes
while it will continue to remain an Full Service Airline on High Density Routes..

pg-4 (of the main link in 1st post)

Business restructuring

– low cost model

– Subsidiaries for Cargo, MRO etc operational

- Brand building & Makeover


Indigo and Spice jet fares as always lower than full service but not by such a huge gap as Deccan was. Eg 9W is 20000 r/t they will be 16000. Deccan was probably trying to sell at 6000, which is plain idiotic.

That just proves my point what i said in my first post here.

the top officials in AI (or any other airline or company) are not paid to copy others but to use their own mind and take good appropriate decisions.





Its funny the way these wise and highly intelligent chintoos talk of Air India
as a non-entity in this forum. if it didnt get them medically down, they would readily give their right arm to be in this kachra airline !


You are right and I bet when you grow up you will be one of those in the queue.:}
As for me, well I am a helicopter pilot. So, i can't work for AI. :ugh:

[IndAir967]

NEW DELHI: Air India on Friday announced launching of its low-cost domestic operations from September.
Addressing his first formal press conference here since he took over the reins of the carrier more than two months ago, Air India Chairman and Managing Director Arvind Jadhav said the no frill operations would be launched by Air India Express, the low-cost entity of the national carrier which already flies to destinations in the Gulf region.
“Out of 100 schedules, we have identified 27 schedules on which low cost flights can be operated. Ultimately, nearly 70 per cent of our total domestic flights will be of low-cost nature as we go along restructuring the airline,” he added.


The Remaining 30% +or- is going to remain full serviced routes..

The reason Low Cost Model was mentioned in that page was because there is primary change in management strategy..

Hope it helps..

[IndAir967]

Its funny the way these wise and highly intelligent chintoos talk of Air India
as a non-entity in this forum. if it didnt get them medically down, they would readily give their right arm to be in this kachra airline !

My dear young friend..
Air India is one of last remaining companies on this planet that treats
its pilots with highest respect..
Name any airline and i ll tell u how they ll treat you..
Infact in some airlines cabin crew are better treated then deck crew..
quit calling AI names unless u r from across the border..

[TopTup]

IndAir967... Are you kidding! Pilots with "respect"??! Is that why you are travelling in economy class while ON DUTY, why your salary hasn't been paid, why your allownces haven't been paid, your roster is done as per the highest bidder (bribery) to the schedling guys, training taking up to 18 months, contracts of yours and the expats spat at and laughed at.....I could go on but see other posts in the Will AI Strike thread.....

I left AI some time ago now due the incessant mismangent and corruption. If I failed a pilot (Oh, I don't know, because he crashed the sim in nil wind conditions, no malfunctions, basic ILS approach) then I was scrutinised and placed on report due that pilot being friends with some one in "management". Route check to DXB the next day and he's back on line as a Cmdr.

From the bamboo security gates, to the stench of urine in the ops & tng building, the dead pigeons in the roof, the windows and halls that haven't been cleaned in decades, the forms filled out in triplicate with carbon paper in between, forms lost, misplaced, etc, ex Wng Cmdrs and Grp Capts (sorry, NAVIGATORS!) using AI as a retirement village. Productive? No way. Will it change? Never. Too many greedy fingers in the pot too happy to blame anyone and everyone else.

AI is nothing but a cesspit of mismangent and corruption. If that offends you then I am sorry, but take those damn blinkers off. If you have EVER bribed to get a roster then you are just as guilty and part of the problem.

I resigned and ran because my professional integrity could not tolerate it. Those at AI since they were 19 or so years of age accept it as the norm because they know no better. They also see smoking in the cockpit and the cockpit door unlocked as the norm as well.

What does that tell you?

ICAO (and the FAA) does not look to make AI an ICAO Category II carrier for nothing. It was well and truly earnt.

I hope all at AI can see things through and see world MINIMUM standards installed. When I left and from correspondence with those still there, it hasn't and doesn't want to because too many heads firmly in the sand and too many hands dipping into the piles of money that seem to have been running out.

When low standards are what you're used to and defend through ignorance, then the bar isn't very high.

[IndAir967]

IndAir967... Are you kidding! Pilots with "respect"??! Is that why you are travelling in economy class while ON DUTY, why your salary hasn't been paid, why your allownces haven't been paid, your roster is done as per the highest bidder (bribery) to the schedling guys, training taking up to 18 months, contracts of yours and the expats spat at and laughed at.....I could go on but see other posts in the Will AI Strike thread.....

I left AI some time ago now due the incessant mismangent and corruption. If I failed a pilot (Oh, I don't know, because he crashed the sim in nil wind conditions, no malfunctions, basic ILS approach) then I was scrutinised and placed on report due that pilot being friends with some one in "management". Route check to DXB the next day and he's back on line as a Cmdr.

From the bamboo security gates, to the stench of urine in the ops & tng building, the dead pigeons in the roof, the windows and halls that haven't been cleaned in decades, the forms filled out in triplicate with carbon paper in between, forms lost, misplaced, etc, ex Wng Cmdrs and Grp Capts (sorry, NAVIGATORS!) using AI as a retirement village. Productive? No way. Will it change? Never. Too many greedy fingers in the pot too happy to blame anyone and everyone else.

AI is nothing but a cesspit of mismangent and corruption. If that offends you then I am sorry, but take those damn blinkers off. If you have EVER bribed to get a roster then you are just as guilty and part of the problem.

I resigned and ran because my professional integrity could not tolerate it. Those at AI since they were 19 or so years of age accept it as the norm because they know no better. They also see smoking in the cockpit and the cockpit door unlocked as the norm as well.

What does that tell you?

ICAO (and the FAA) does not look to make AI an ICAO Category II carrier for nothing. It was well and truly earnt.

I hope all at AI can see things through and see world MINIMUM standards installed. When I left and from correspondence with those still there, it hasn't and doesn't want to because too many heads firmly in the sand and too many hands dipping into the piles of money that seem to have been running out.

When low standards are what you're used to and defend through ignorance, then the bar isn't very high.

Sir, with all due respects I feel bad for your experience and if my intution is right you must have been on Express India..
talking about the points that u ve mentioned .. it is not just a characteristic quality of air india..but the idiotic attitude of the folks in the government.. I know and am aware of corruption practices inside..Also what I can say is the biggest blunder made was to merge IC and AI.. I can confidently say IC was a much better place to stick around than AI or IX ..
As far as respect goes you were mentioning about Flt Ops guys and other senior folks in the management not being very friendly to you .. well was it the same situation for an indian guy holding the same position as u were..
I guess you must have been an TRE ? But my point is did u atleast get respect from souls who are below u.. ? Say CC or for that matter even a porter .. ? Let me tell u in one of the private airlines in india.. If the skipper does not come out of the deck to say Buh Bye to pax on arrival .. he will be reported to the Ops by the purser.. now how interesting is that.. and there is this other airline which thinks the CC are the ones who actually fly their planes and the pilots are just a secondary folks in the aircraft.. I am sure you know what airlines I am talking about..
Now cosidering all that nonsense.. I feel IC is a much better place to be..
I have lived and flown for some time on the other side of the planet and I can definitely tell you what kind of respect the pilots get from the other airline employees say in United States where a pilot is under complete pressure from every one else..
I once had to sit next to an TRI (american guy who thinks airbus is not meant to fly :8) on an southwest plane from LAS to SFO.. When I heard his problems.. i can tell u .. I felt really better for being on this side of the planet..
Lets say u were in sequence for departure at JFK in the morning.. after about 45 mins of waiting when u are no.2 for departure .. u get a passenger who says she is bored and wants to get off the plane .. Now in this situation will u dare to take off in USA ? Upon landing am sure u ll have to hire a lawyer .. But had it been AI and same situation in BOM .. you are the boss so u re good to go.. Thats precisely my point..

Unfortunately in South Asia its all about whom u know and what u can do.. I am not justifying but when all of my colleagues are busy buying the whisky bottle at dubai for the crew scheduler I really doubt me not buying would really make an change .. I would just end up doing the late night flights and flying on holidays and festivals..
I know the way u guys do things in western countries and hence it really makes it unacceptable for u to do things the indian way ..
The point is no body is interested in changing things..
for example regarding the Y class on duty travel ..
my question is .. is this being followed ? The rule is there..
but hey its Air India.. I will sit in J class .. and no body questions..
and this can happen only in air india..

As an pilot we are satisfying some one or the other.. Its only a question of who..

For an Indian Guy it would be much better to stick on to NACIL than other airlines in india..
Air India being managed by government folks will be a very tough place for expats and I am not going to differ with you in that aspect..
The expats can only survive in private carriers where they are better treated ..

Skipper, its only the mindset and I am definitely not as experienced as you are.. but it all depends on the individual person and his ability to adjust ..
Some things will change but its only a matter of time..
Complaining is easy but seeing positives through it and conquering the personal objective is what that counts ! And for me as an Indian .. undoubtedly IC is the best place to be with ..
and that applies to any indian ..
Let me give u this example of the indian mindset.. An Indian Guy would have worked very hard in life and studied in the best universities here only to go to another country where he would be treated as an second class citizen.. but he ll continue to live there becoz he doesnt complan .. after all he consciously made that choice and despite all that hardships when he comes back to india he only speaks about the good things of that country..
Thats precisely my point..
Our Adjustability and Acceptability levels are pretty high.. but yes I can hear you saying you guys need to reduce it for good.. yup.. its happening.. just wait and watch..

Happy Landings Skipper !

[Wannabe Flyer]

A lot of discussion about the treatment meted out to pilots in the industry. Well as a prudent poster said

Now when i am an airline owner and I have so many unemployed young CPL s around.. what would I do.. I would obviously try to make a profit out of it..and thats exactly they are doing..(am not justifying btw)

3 years ago when the going was good, pilots were jumping ship to the first airline that offered them a little bit more, young Guns from the Air Force were using every excuse in the book to quit and banks actually rating pilots higher than nuero surgeons in loan ability and preference. It is funny how the tables have turned and regardless who or where one is working for a valuable lesson has been learned by all. Greed does not pay! The going was good, you all enjoyed, now join the lines of job seekers and wait your turn when the going is tough.

This naturally is not applicable to NACIL as they are a govt organization and work on principles defined on wall street on the planet Mars.

[Schumi - Red Baron]

The Remaining 30% +or- is going to remain full serviced routes..

The reason Low Cost Model was mentioned in that page was because there is primary change in management strategy..

Hope it helps..

Well, with almost 70% of aircraft as LCC, AI will be more of an LCC.:bored:


Rival low-cost carriers (LCCs) spend around 8-10 per cent of their sales as salaries — Air India’s ultimate goal is to become an LCC. Indeed, a sharp cut in the wage bill is something Jadhav has committed to the government.


Surajeet Das Gupta: Air India flies into another storm (http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/surajeet-das-gupta-air-india-flies-into-another-storm/368546/)

[TopTup]

IndAir967

Thank you for your time to answer and regard some issues raised. (Better & more professional than some on this web site!)

I was a TRE on the 777 with AI. I received respect from those "below" me (a term which makes my blood boil. No one is EVER below me. We are colleagues of varying rank and responsibility, not above or below anyone)... so the respect shown was forced, very rarely genuine. "Yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full sir" when all I wanted was an honest answer or for the FO or Cmdr under check to disagree with me! Often I would breach an SOP in order to get a response and very rarely if ever did!!! Their job is to challenge & question the Cmdr if SOPs are breached!!!! So "respect"? No. Far too blinded by a culture of never questioning authority or those "above you". That is a DANGEROUS culture in this job. Look at KAL in the mid 80's....

I found it demeeming to myself and the porter to demand he lift my bags for me, or for the FA's to be too scared to call me by my first name on the flight deck. Again, not a criticism but a difference of culture which is not for me to comment or challenge. Just a personal opinion. Forcing a person to waite on you or call you "sir" is not "respect".

No, the USA is not ideal & I have found no place ever is. But the "systemic culture" of a place where the FO may challenge the Capt without fear of being yelled at or abused, where the FA's are comfortable with informing the Capt of something they thought they saw on the wing, or where the FA is comfortable with telling a Capt he may not smoke on the flightdeck, to keep the flight deck door locked.... that to me is more "respect" for the integrity of an airline.

If a pax wants off, you call Ops, get clarification of the rules and act accordingly. The pressure is removed from you. You get paid whether you take off or not AND your backside is covered. Again, at AI NO ONE is ever accountable and if need be a scapegoat is readilly found.

That is my point re the whiskey bottle to the schedulers! I never did and perhaps paid the price through the roster handed out. But my integrity was intact. This is the reason why AI is in such a damn mess!!!! "Everyone else does it so I might as well". It reminds me kindergarten children I am sorry to say. This is the culture that has been permitted to thrive at AI. It will take generations to remove it, IF they want it to change....pretty big "IF"!

So, back to the main topic, AI's recovery plan..... Change the thinking, change the culture, ENFORCE world minimum standards, get rid of children (200 hr pilots) flying RHS of 777s and 747s,....... GET ACCOUNTABLE in terms of organisation, standards and safety!!!!!!!!! Employ whomever, from where ever you must to get the job done!!!! A person not subject to political pressure or bribes from other commercial or work place influences.

And Sir, I do sincerely thank you for your previous response and I do not mean any anomisity toward you, but yes, you ARE part of the problem if you continue to see the need to bribe for your roster.

"Somebody should fix this!!"

YOU ARE "SOMEBODY"!!!!!.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Good Luck in giving wage cuts, especially for those who make an issue of travelling economy over J class while dead heading!

[Schumi - Red Baron]

after about 45 mins of waiting when u are no.2 for departure .. u get a passenger who says she is bored and wants to get off the plane .. Now in this situation will u dare to take off in USA ? Upon landing am sure u ll have to hire a lawyer .. But had it been AI and same situation in BOM .. you are the boss so u re good to go.. Thats precisely my point..



How on earth is that respect for you.:ugh:
That just shows the basic problem in AI. They think they are the boss. But now people are wise enough and know that customer is the boss.

That's the reason why AI, the longest serving airline in India, with government backing and with the biggest fleet has a mere 12-15% market share much less than that Jet or Kingfisher who don't have same resources as AI.


Wake up AI. It's 2009 A.D not 2009 B.C.

[TopTup]

Red Baron - well put.

There's an entire systemic culture that has existed and will continue to exist at AI. To change the culture will take more than a new budget.

[rdr]

Indair967,
you are an idiot to put it lightly. Have you heard of the word integrity ??

[masalama]

We need to recognize the problems and dangers of what top tup has mentioned in his posts regarding AI. It is endemic to our airlines and these attitudes do exist in Indian aviation and some airlines are better at dealing with the bad apples than others.
Top tup,out of curiosity, how about your friends who are TRI/TRE's at Jet , do they observe the same level of nepotism , work culture, non-adherence to SOP's , lack of CRM that you have observed at AI? I would give a calculated guess and say that things are better at Jet .

We have a long way culturally before attitudes in the cockpit can change to match international standards and when I say international stds, it's not how well you can fly an ILS with an engine out and no hydraulics .We have some really smart guys/gals in Indian aviation but that's not all that's required to be a good pilot.Many a times we have this phobia of telling off our "superiors "if they're doing something non-standard or downright dangerous. For example, top tup brings up a good point regarding smoking in the cockpit.How many co-pilots would tell their captains /instructors /examiners that sorry smoking in the cockpit is non standard and would you mind waiting till we land to start smoking? Let me guess, less than 5 -10 % ....also those guys would then be marked or at least be afraid of reprisals in the next sim/route check etc...

These might sound silly or not important but guys this IS very important, the day one of us feels something's not right with this approach or maybe we are a bit too high and fast ....the same co-pilot would not open up fearing ridicule or reprisals from his/her seniors..that's how accidents happen .

To summarize, I feel that top tup has brought out some very valid points and can we fix it?, of course we can .... hopefully these views will be taken seriously by the airlines in India and know that they can be overcome by some discipline from the top/down .Adherence to SOP's should not be taken lightly, reporting of culprits without fear of reprisal should be recommended ,lip-service CRM is useless unless implemented in practice.

Before anyone from the so called Indian aviation fraternity blasts my post as expat mumbo-jumbo , just like to let you know that I'm an Indian flying with one of our private airlines, let's pull our head of the sand guys and we know exactly what I mean.....
masalama:ok:

[IndAir967]

IndAir967

Thank you for your time to answer and regard some issues raised. (Better & more professional than some on this web site!)


Well skipper I would definitely take in a few valuable points despite prevailing cultural deferences .. Thanks ! Happy Landings !

Indair967,
you are an idiot to put it lightly. Have you heard of the word integrity ??

Have u heard of the word professionalism ? It would take me just four letters to abuse you back.. but hey I have integrity and I wont get as low as you are .. !

How on earth is that respect for you.:ugh:
That just shows the basic problem in AI. They think they are the boss. But now people are wise enough and know that customer is the boss.

That's the reason why AI, the longest serving airline in India, with government backing and with the biggest fleet has a mere 12-15% market share much less than that Jet or Kingfisher who don't have same resources as AI.


Customer is indeed the boss .. but not in command .. I definitely would not want an 150 bosses to be out there telling me every time what to do .. ! I would rather loose 1 customer and satisfy the remaining 149 and still get to keep my job !

[boeingdream787]

@TopTup......
K.U.D.O.S. brother.I couldn't have phrased the entire post better myself.And won't attempt to!! Kudos.....!!!
:D:D:D
@IndAir whatever.....
Have u never heard of flogging a dead horse man.....grow frieking up kid!!
:cool:

[Capt Apache]

so the respect shown was forced, very rarely genuine.


You said it.This is the basic problem here.Dignity of Labour.Do this job n its respectable,do another n its not.Its not just in offices.Ragging is another form of getting people to show respect by force and widely pevalent in our colleges and armed forces.See below.This is our wonderful culture.We look down upon actors and musicians and call them BHAAND or GAVAIYYA.But when A R Rehman wins the oscar we talk about how we have taken centre stage in the world.But we will CHANGE..... only becoz everything eventually does.
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Probe after India 'ragging death' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7934744.stm)
Family suspects ragging behind NDA cadet's death, Bhopal News - By samachaar.in (http://samachaar.in/Bhopal/Family_suspects_ragging_behind_NDA_cadet's_death_87392/)

[DesiPilot]

TopTup,

I have given up on the first name requests, I tried my best and no one would call me by my first name, not even when the FD doors were closed and no one else was listening. It could very well be a cultural thing but it can be changed. I grew up in India and when I was flying in US we were on first name basis. I learned the ways, so I am sure it can be done here as well. The same goes for CRM, customer service and being polite.

Someone sent me an email and I wanted to share it with everyone here:> To The Editor,
>
> Times Of India
>
> Sir,
>
> Reference is made to Kingshuk nags blog Masala Noodles (Why A Strike Will Benefit Air India and Everyone) dated 21st June 09.
>
> The issue clearly,is not whether airline pilots are overpaid (7 Lakhs a month!) or spoilt prima donnas (living in 5 Star hotels) squandering “public” money. Are pilots to be blamed for Air India’s plight? Nothing could be far removed from the truth.
>
> It takes an Indian airline pilot almost 5 to 10 years of rigorous training, thousands of hours of experience, with a minimum passing score of 80 percent in numerous aviation subjects and various practical tests to qualify as a commander of an aircraft. He is solely responsible for a machine worth millions of dollars and numerous human lives. Every action he takes is recorded in a data recorder or a black box - no other job in the world requires a person to be more accountable. He is directly responsible for his actions and could die for making mistakes. He is checked for his professional skills, mental and physical alertness every six months through rigorous tests. He may have to undergo a preflight medical and a breathalyzer test prior to a flight. A pilot has to work in a complex rapidly changing dynamic 3 D environment, despite inclement weather, adversity, and uncertainty 24 X 7.
>
> Unlike a fighter pilot a civil airline pilot cannot escape from his aircraft in an emergency. He does not have an ejection seat or a parachute. Once a passenger aircraft takes off its pilots are expected to bring it down safely no matter what the emergency, situation or condition of the aircraft.
>
> Unlike the CMD of Air India or Babus and Mantris a pilot has no pending files and every decision has to be prompt and correct or he could pay with his life.
> He cannot adjourn a flight or break tables and chairs and throw tantrums at fellow colleagues .He cannot plunder crores of public money by burning tons of extra fuel or destroy a plane and remain unaccountable.
>
> A pilot has to bear tremendous physical and mental stress – caused by extremes in temperature and climate at each destination. There are body cycle changes and severe consequences of sleep deprivation caused by jet lag due to intercontinental time zone shifts, exposure to high doses of ultraviolet upper atmospheric radiation, changing cabin pressure cycles, not to mention dietary changes due to geographical displacement. Despite this a pilot is expected to remain medically fit failing which he could lose his job.
> The stress of being separated from ones family members for days on end can also cause severe stress and strain. This is exacerbated by a life of uncertainty as a pilot may experience frequent changes to his flying schedule.
>
> Forming the backbone of any company's corporate mantra is customer satisfaction, which in turn ensures market confidence and thus, survivability. No matter how slick the airline's image or marketing pitch, how glitzy its style, how modern its equipment or how pretty its cabin crew or efficient its ground handling - all these can be wiped out- in one swift stroke by one air accident. This in turn could destroy passenger confidence and an airline's reputation for years together.
>
> No IIM graduate, AS Officer, Mantriji or marketing whiz or advertising guru can prevent air accident - only I, the pilot can terminate a flight safely. And flight safety forms the foundation of Customer Confidence.
>
> Today Air India enjoys an enviable safety record despite all the challenges posed to its pilots regularly. (Singapore Airlines does not because of its recent accidents over the past five years).We have not had a fatal accident in over two decades - the last being the Kanishka disaster caused by an act of terrorism - something completely beyond a pilot's
> control. As a result of this fantastic Air Safety record, Air India saves millions of dollars in Insurance premiums each year - many times the salary of me and all my colleagues put together!
>
> Every time I use my flying skills to save kilos of fuel the company saves thousands if not millions of dollars in fuel bills annually. Fuel comprises the largest single expenditure of an airline. A smart banker or financial fund manager would have raked in a tidy sum if he could save his company so much money under a smart corporate perk known as a Profit Sharing Incentive.Singapore Airlines pilots share profits that equal many months of pay. I do not.
>
> Global corporate standards rate efficiency and competence by a ranking method known as the Sigma Rating System. The highest that most professions achieve is Six Sigma - where the probability of failure or making a mistake while carrying out an assigned task is 3.4 times in a Million instances.
>
> Only the best of IT software professionals, MBA's and engineers in the world have ever achieved Six Sigma standards - barring of course the famous Dabbawallahs of Bombay who were suitably honored by Prince Charles on his last visit to India.
>
> But two other professions perform much higher than Six Sigma standards. The first are Medical Surgeons who are expected to achieve Ten Sigma where the probability of error is miniscule. The second profession (you guessed it right) is that of Airline Pilots who operate under Nine Sigma standards and often pay with their own lives for committing grave mistakes. Besides, unlike surgeons, pilots undergo routine medical tests and Breathalyzer checks and have every move recorded in a black box for scrutiny and review. And Prince Charles has definitely not honored any Air India pilot in his lifetime!
>
>
> A pilot’s job is subject to stringent medical fitness norms every six months. He could lose his job permanently for something as minor as weight gain not to mention the various other ailments Mantris and babus are allowed to work with. A pilot in Air India spends 80 percent of his life abroad in countries that have cost of living standards that are many times higher than Indias. That is why he is paid in dollars and paid reasonably well. A pilot pays taxes for his hard earned money and does not rob it from the exchequer and tuck it away in Swiss bank accounts.
>
> 75 percent of Air Accidents are caused by human error of which 28 percent are caused by fatigue. A pilot whom is given uncomfortable, noisy accommodation in unhygienic conditions is going to be fatigued and mentally stressed - a recipie for a disaster. The UK Government has made it compulsory for pilots to be accommodated in superior 5 Star like hotels for this reason.
>
> And lastly, Mr Nag, Air India was founded by J R D Tata and Neville Vincent and the former steered it to the status of one of the best airlines in the history of the world until the airline was snatched away from him by the government.
>
> And guess what - Both JRD Tata and Vincent were pilots!
>
> With warms regards,
>
> An Air India Pilot


Good luck to AI and for record I do not work for them.

[silent_scream]

Desi Pilot, whoever wrote that, Sheer Beauty ! :D Thanks for posting it.
And as true and factual it is, no wonder it never got published in the news paper. Or may be I haven't read it.

TopTup, Sad but true, will have to agree to every word you said.

IndianAir,
It would take me just four letters to abuse you back.. but hey I have integrity and I wont get as low as you are .. ! Speechless. :ok:

Capt.Apache , Very true. Dignity they all must have (and get as well).

May be the culture just got lost some where in the process in trying to get a life. But when we finally do manage to get one, and try to change it, we figure out something.
"Hey ! Its not gona work this way Amigo!"

There might be one more small problem, I hear there are differences between the Ex-Military pilots and Other pilots in Air India. How true is that ?

Try We all must.
Silent.

[TopTup]

Gents,

Thanks for your support, but not necessary. I am only stating what everybody knows, just that way too few are either a) willing to admit it, or b) unable to take the blindfold off.

In all sincere respect I will, in part, disagree with the email posted to the editor of the newspaper.

AI is a LUCKY airline, not SAFE.

The training is well below international standards. If you are honest (coming from the 777 fleet, I cannot comment on others) the instructor arrives usually 45 mins late, no briefings, no set pattern to do (well there is but it is ignored). The pilots take a seat and are asked "Anything you want to do?" Of a 4 hour sim (fully paid for to Jet Airways by AI) it may be in motion for 2. As if by magic the PPC/IR form is fully completed before even getting back to the briefing room. Expats I spoke with laughed...."Apparently I flew an NDB approach and we practised incapacitation..!!" Of course, it was not done.

Let's not go back and re-hash the dispicable lack of implementation of SOPs and CRM that I posted previously and all seemed to agree with! Are they not VITAL aspects of avition training and safety?

The CPL pilots coming onto the 777 can do things by wrote but NO COMPRHENSION or UNDERSTANDING of WHY they do the procesures they do. One guy told me a few months ago that his FO asked hom to please define V1, Vr and V2 as he did not know anything but how to extract the figures.

It is not their fault. No experience to draw from therefore training must be in its place. The training is all but non existant. Sorry, that is a fact.

Otherwise I agree in part of the above email, but definitely NOT the part of how well trained the pilots are. Again, that was the main reason why I left.

So, AI's turn around plan? See again my previous posts for my 2 cents worth....

Lastly, and I will repeat this: "Somebody should fix this problem!"

YOU ARE "SOMEBODY"!!!!

In other words, every time you smoke in the cockpit, bribe for your roster, disregard SOPs, call in sick, abuse your FO, don't speak up as an FO, turn up for briefings late then YOU are contributing to AI's woes. It takes more b@lls to front up professionally every time than to cave in to the group mentality and pathetically low standards set by your predecessors.

[AriGold]

did the turn around plan include letting your engine catch fire and making it look like an accident as to cash in on the insurance? De-roster the pilots and engineers to make it look like you're taking it serious, and that in fact you didn't sabotage your own airline because the flight attendants are old and you can see their hairy guts hanging out through their "uniform" and the planes all smell bad, except for first class or business on the 777/747 which is really nice. I like the seven course meal in first class it was nice. Maybe the turn around plan should be not upgrade every pilot or friend of pilot to first class? that wouldn't benefit me. Late paychecks, corruption, overstaffed, unrationalized routes, wasting money, improper maintenance, all the pilots see the stressful situations, and are staying because it's air india which seems like a throne for a king!


booty booty booty everywhere? Not air india!

[IndAir967]

What ever said and done.. I love AI ..Its my personal choice !
:ok:

[Sky Dancer]

Psst Guys , don't bother wasting your time on this thread.If you were to guess the fate of AI 10 years hence I can give you a pretty accurate picture.The bailout package is almost ready.Once it's been given , there'll be a lot of gung ho talk about how the airline will be the one to watch out for after 5 years and blah...blah blah.Meanwhile the same **** will continue and after about 10 years they'll be in another mess when the next recession kicks in and they'll be handed another bailout.So quite honestly there really is no point in wasting your time.The show will go on in AI...read, AI throwing **** at the pax , the pax throwing **** at AI , the government throwing **** at AI , the media throwing **** at AI and AI getting immersed deeper in ****...:}:ok:

[jimmygill]

@Top Tup:
If you want to change the system, you have to accept the system or the system will reject you. Thereby denying itself and you a chance to change it. With no disagreement on whatever you have said, I do envy your position where in you can walk out and say, "not my business any more". While IndAir67 or me cannot and should not afford to have a similar position.

Just to highlight this difference, for example, if my commander, in flight requests me if he can smoke. I can do a lots of thing.
* Deny him and cite company policy and make sure that I fail the sim-session involving fictional ILS approach with one engine and two hydraulic systems failed.
* Allow him to smoke, and put on my oxygen mask.
* Allow him, don't put the mask, and gently hand him the two page pamphlet about adverse affects of smoking on flying performance. (Of which, I keep a copy ready)

Whatever I chose, I have to balance out risks, to my job and my passengers. It is unfortunate but some of us are in this situation.


And, about the 200hr pilots on right seat. Some people learn every hour, others stop learning after some time. Its not the 200hrs that matter, its the quality of training that matters. I am not saying that those in the right seats are as good as a 3000 hr pilot. Just that in principle they are good enough for the job, otherwise Boeing or the insurance companies themselves will point out the deficiency.



To IndAir67, and some others..

Its not about the 'culture-difference', it is how much of our culture do we reflect in our professional lives. We use different cultural yardstick in our personal and professional conduct.


Happy Landings
Jim

[gengis]

Sky Dancer has got it right. There's a hindi word for these types: chootia

[fullforward]

Sky: you're mostly right, unless the indian tax payers someday realize they are paying too much for the infamous party...

jimmi: sorry, but it's senseless bull**** even for a wannabe like you...trying to justify the unjustifiable...:{

[Wannabe Flyer]

Well AI needs to first reduce it's staffing before thinking of moving on (and for that i dont mean purchasing more aircraft and keeping them on the ground to make the numbers look good). In order to do that it will need to first slug it out with the union. Ooops did some one say union?:mad:

Either way another 5000 crs of tax payer money burned up

[TopTup]

Skydancer, I regrettably agree with you.

Jimmy.... Well, you are precisely the problem. You are one of those who have their head so firmly concreted in the sand that you believe you're own rot, what's more you justify it. You would rather turn a blind eye so as not to fail a corrupt sim propagating from a a corrupt SYSTEM. You look after YOURSELF and therefore allow the dispicable system to flourish. Such professionalism!

I have colleagues at Boeing and some are 777 instructors. They all but wash their hands of AI in may respects. And please do not harp on about your TRAINING. It is offensive. You only embarress yourself in front of those who have the backbone to admit what goes on. Again, you deny and embrace it, then justify it.

In "principle" a doctor leaves university with medical degree. Why not allow him/her to operate on you the next day? Just because he/she has no experience or further EFFECTIVE training shouldn't matter should it? So, are we still talking "principles"?

I have seen those 200 hr 777 pilots operate, and many, many others at AI: from Cmdrs to FOs. I tried to improve things, failed those who didn't reach the standard, passed those who did, enforced SOPs, set standards but was harrassed and victimised, so I left. You say "I have no choice?" Well, if your TRAINING and EXPERIENCE is so good, why not go to another airline? Some are beginning to recruit again. MUCH better money, terms and conditions!! Go on! Compare your "STANDARDS" to the rest of the world's pilot body n an interview. Then, if you fail perhaps you could look back on the system you belive so great. If you pass, send me a PM and the first beer is on me.

None of you will because that cash cow of mediocrity still permits you to bathe in your own ill-gotten beliefs of "standards". Sad.

That's me signing off from this thread. My head stopped bleeding from that brick wall a while ago. I'm not going to re-open that gaping wound. Good LUCK, because you are definitely not SAFE.

AI's rescue plan? HA! Look at what those who work there believe in! :ugh:

[boeingdream787]

@ Sky Dancer,
Even though your thoughts are fairly accurate,how come this coming from YOU of all people.An ex sahara pilot who comes from one of the most dis organised airlines in india.If i have ever seen one!
But...like i said your thinking's still un warped. Surprise surprise...!!
;)
P.S-AK is still looking for you there in sahara(now jetlite).You're on the rosters still as AWOL.....:D

[boeingdream787]

@ Sky Dancer again-
Quote "AI throwing **** at the pax , the pax throwing **** at AI , the government throwing **** at AI , the media throwing **** at AI and AI getting immersed deeper in ****"
Then how come you're still working with AI (should I say OR its subsidiary)!!
Could it be because YOU and people like you ARE part of this termite ridden airline called AI/AIE.And can't for the life of you find another job.Because YOU ARE the termites that destroyed this company. Could that be possible.....??!!?? :hmm:

[Sky Dancer]

787....wonder where that came from :p.

[boeingdream787]

Maybe from one of your ex sahara colleagues.......?? ME.....!!! :}

[fullforward]

My recomendation: dont' loose your valuable time and efforts with such idiots.
50 years and billiards of people's crores will be wasted before such kind of people wake up from the 17 century caves...
Sh...oles like jimmi got the job likewise many others: some relationship with a quite honest government officer, who appointed people like him as a God gift to aviation...and they really think they are!