Dilemma!!

[maxialphas]

Hello

What would you do in my circumstances...

I am 30 , have a family and have 2 hobbies that are my passion. Aviation and Photography.

I am going to university in september for 3 years to do a business degree and i want to make use of these 3 years to setup my own business.

I have 2 ideas...

1: Use the extra money i will have (student loan etc) to learn how to fly and then try and get my instructor rating and either become a full time flying instructor or eventually setup my own microlight flying school within the 3 years OR

2: Setup my own photography studio and learn to fly when i can

Before you ask i have been up in a light aircraft numerous times and taken the controls and know its for me. I adore being up there and if i hadnt heard all the stories about bad pay i wouldnt be having this dilemma.

I am going to need 30k per annum (wouldnt kill me to have less for a few years but would want to get to this 2yrs after graduating)

Please dont dimiss this as another silly thread , its a true dilemma and need some advice.

Thankyou

Ben

[Choxolate]

@Maxialphas.
Impossible for us to resolve your dliemma from the information provided.

First you need to be absolutely certain that you want to start your own business and that it wouldn't be better to have a normal job (e.g. commercial photography, aerial photography??) as an employee.

Why do you think that you can successfully complete a business degree course and start a business at the same time - aren't you massivley increasing the risk of failure of both?

If you are determined to start your own business - why are you going to university and probably ending up with big debts at the end?

It appears to me (from what little info you have given) that you need to really assess what you want to do and committ yourself 100% to doing that?

Sorry that didn't help much but only you can answer the question "What should I do with the rest of my life"

[Heliplane]

Each of the things you want to do ((i) a 3 year business degree, (ii) become a flight instructor from scratch and (iii) set up a photography studio) is a full time occupation in itself - and that's before you factor in your family responsibilities.

My gut feel is that it would be better to do one thing really well than to try to cram too much in at the same time which might result in everything suffering.

A business degree (an MBA??) will often lead to a specific type of occupation - eg an investment banking, consulting or industry job. I decided against an MBA when I realised that the types of opportunities such a course might create were not what I particularly wished to do.

If you have a good idea for your own business, the best advice would be to develop a coherent plan, encourage people you trust to critique it for you, hone it and then get on and do it.

Ultimately, do something that you'll be good at and that will make you happy.

If you ended up doing something totally different, you could always endulge both your passions at once by photographing aeroplanes in your spare time!

[Jofm5]

Speaking as someone who runs their own business (IT Consultancy)...

My advice would be to Not to use your student loan etc for learning to fly, Learning to fly is an expensive enough hobby that you dont really want to be paying any interest on top of. Likewise once you do have your PPL you will still be paying the loan off for the lessons and would have reduced spare cash available to persue flying on that licence and staying current. From what I have read there are few instructors jobs available at the moment so you would be placing all your eggs in one basket so to speak.

My advice would be only start your PPL if you have the income to support paying for the lessons and remaining current afterwards. You also have to factor the amount of groundschool time and the exams you have to part and whether they would interfere with your uni studies.

If your considering an MBA (Masters of Business Administration) then you may wish to consider going part time instead of full time - You can do this online with both the Open University and Liverpool University. I did my MSc with Liverpool and it is quite easy to fit around any work commitments as you pick your modules and when and set aside 8 week blocks. Doing it part time will allow you to continue working and also gives you gaps where by you can study for your PPL (whilst having the income to do so if working).

Finally there is alot of time spent involved in running a business, the paperwork involved can be quite large and there is the book keeping to do. If you find yourself a good accountant they will do most of this for you but they will charge - for example my consultancy is a Limited company and pays about £1200 in accountancy fee's even tho I do my own invoicing and VAT returns. You have to factor in the administration time for your company along with any working time - for example I work 5 days a week consulting and do my bookwork on a sunday afternoon.

[niknak]

"When you want to start a business, look in the Yellow Pages".

Peter Jones. Theo Pathites. Mr Banatyne. Government Advice. Just about everyone who has started and run a succesful business anywhere.

There are hundreds of professional photographers in the UK and there are hundreds of flying organisations, all of whom have one thing above and beyond you - they've started the business, developed it and run it.
Some are more successful than others, some are very successful, but the facts are that you are suggesting entering an extremely competitive market and you are at the bottom rung with nothing.

That may sound harsh, but those are the facts.
It strikes me that you are, with due respect, extremely naive and have no idea of your market, customers or start up and ongoing costs.

Go and do your degree, by then you will be 33, just as poor, but maybe be a little more mature about the harsh world of business aviation.
Nuff said.

[maxialphas]

Hi,

Sorry i should have given more details.

I have been succssfully running my own business for the last 6yrs , but the area i am in is in decline and i wanted to change before it got stale.

It is a foundation degree in business and marketing for 2yrs with the option to do the 3rd year.

I have specifically chosen to do this as i have no debt , or mortgage so can comfortably live on very little , and yes i will need to pay the student loan back but i am entitled to quite aq few grants that i dont need to pay back.

I have some money put aside also to help with living costs and have budgeted and have nearly £2000 per month left over after all my bills are met.

That is enough to learn my PPL easily and then some. or if i did the photography thats more than enough to rent a little unit and work from there.

I am doing the business course as i feel i lack in mass marketing and would benefit from the extra skills of trying to get customers in.

I am just at the point in my life where i want to start doing something I enjoy as the business im in i inherited from family and tbh am fed up with it.

Basically i want a fresh start.



Niknak,

With respect im hardly naive , who said i was poor??, im not stupid and know its extremely hard to run a business these days as i run one 6 days a week.

A successful business is a profitable business , i know that and if i can manage to get more in than out then i will have succeeded.

It isnt like i have no experience of budgeting and making ends meet!

[worrab]

The people you need to discuss this with are your family - especially your other half. Any of the three options you've raised will require significant support and a surprising level of committment from them. (and a business degree is probably the last thing you need to run your own business - as I guess you already know)

[Jofm5]

Maxialphas,

Worrab has a point with looking in the yellow pages, there will be quite a few photographers out there and most instructors are tied to a flying school.

Alot of photography business I would imagine comes from Word of mouth/recommendation so to establish yourself to get to that level may prove an uphill struggle. The same applies for an instructor not tied to a flight school.

In my own personal view for decent business marketing I would forget the 3 years course and employ a marketing agency, this will probably work out cheaper (over time) and much quicker to get to where you want to be. One of the things I have learnt running a business is not to stretch yourself too thinly by wearing all the hats - employ contractors/agencies/accountants when required as they have spent years doing what you will have only scratched the surface at and will no doubt do a better job. Speak to a couple of angencies about your ideas and see how much they will help and charge you.

[Justiciar]

Good luck with what you intend, but think long and hard about the commercial flying instructor route.

I am sure you have an idea of figures, but to get to FI stage, via PPL and CPL will cost you in the order of £25k, including the hours building. FI pay is c**p in 99% of schools and job security poor. Flight training generally is very subject to economic conditions. Allowing £6k for getting your PPL, then roughly £20k will buy you an awful lot of flying which moreover will be hugely more satisfying and varied than teaching ab initio students (mostly endless rounds of "trial lessons").

You will almost certainly earn very much more doing your day job and using the surplus earnings to fly or buy a share or even a whole aircraft!

Having read this I seem very cynical! There are some who do make a career as an FI, but many tend to be those who have retired from main stream commercial aviation and many of those work part time and are self employed. Others do find their niche in commercial training organisations. Money is not the whole answer I know, but having been self employed running your own business will you really be happy salaried on a fraction of what you have the potential to earn else where?

The obvious thought here is aviation photography!! Yes, there are some very successful aviation photographers already, but success will be down to you.

[dontpressthat]

1: Use the extra money i will have (student loan etc) to learn how to fly and then....


Think yourself lucky, all my early training was funded by selling the car, overtime and savings.

Youve got to love the system in the UK, a kid goes to uni to study cheese and biscuits 4 hours a week for three years (no disrespect to your biz degree maxialphas:ok:) and gets a student loan.

Want to become a proffesional pilot and your on your own.:ugh:

maxialphas, as others have said, if I were you I would choose one of your options and go for that 100% then move on from there.
Good luck with whatever you choose though matey.

DPT

[maxialphas]

DPT,

No offence taken!

It aint like i havent paid considerably more into the system than i will be taking out anyway lol

Aviation photography seems the logical choice yes but according to my research it is extremely hard to even make a little bit of a living out of it due the vast amount of people willing to do it for free :ugh:

Aerial photography is another that is extremely difficult to make money out of.

I know there is alot of competition in flight schools and photography but isnt there with everything these days?

I think by adding value in other areas, be that better customer services, better prices, better flexibility there will always be scope for new companies to get a slice of the action.

In my computer business we struggled a few years ago , i spotted a gap in the market, and started offering free computer lessons once a month to newbies.

Took off , my sales increased and all it cost me was a thursday night once a month for 2hrs teaching people the basics of a computer.

Going back to a flight school for instance. I do genuinely belive that with a microlight and a good dose of hard work it could be a success , even if it meant employing an instructor whilst i trained , i would still make money out of the £100 per hour training charge that is typical these days.

Ben

[Supersport]

My advice is ignore all the sensible 'concerntrate on one thing 100% bla bla' advice posted here. I'm doing exactly the same thing as you, but reckon I'm a year or two further down the line.

I have a wife and son and have a more than happy family life, I work full time Monday to Friday for a multi-national IT reseller (IBM Enterprise Sales) I own my own sucessful business (4 years and counting) which I run part time from home which I'm starting to see a good ROI for now (an accountant does my books, don't pay anywhere near £1,200!), I passed my PPL (JAA) a little over 18 months ago, I'm now studying for ATPL exams and will be starting the CPL flight training soon with a view to getting the FI rating, I also race a 600 Honda at 9 or 10 club meetings a year. Added to which I'll soon be starting a honours degree in marine biology (distance learning).

Sounds like a lot, but we live in the Uk! I only manage to fly probably 50% of the time I plan to due to weather! Which I then use to study -fly on the good weather days, study on the bad weather days etc etc (not all - BW flying is invaluable experience, instructor present recommended!). Anyway, what I'm trying to say is JUST GO FOR IT! The only thing in the above that is worthwhile mentioning is family. If they're your side and all is OK financially (which you've stated is) there is nothing stopping you.

Good Luck!

SS600

[maxialphas]

Supersport,

Thanks so much for the optimistic reply.

I really love being at airfields, love being up in an aircraft and have taught people in the past with my old job so feel i couldmake a go of it as a flight instructor whether that being for my own flightschool or working for someone else.

I am as you say just going to GO FOR IT!

Ben

[stiknruda]

Matey,

It is best to regret the things that you have done, rather than regret the things that you have not done!


Stik

[funfly]

Learning to fly is a hobby.
A full time joib as a (GA) flying instructor has been tried by many with few who make it a success.
If you want to become an airline pilot look towards an investment of £50,000 and five years graft.
During your FDBusiness studies you will be given experience in personal developement and advice on how to take the best decisions regarding your future by proper consideration of the options.
I suggest you occupy your time over the next couple of years in getting full value from the course and wait until you are in a better position to take a decision on your future without pre-judging it before you start.:=
Keep an open mind.
By the way, all the best whatever you decide - I'm in the middle of studying for a degree myself and I'm 71:O

[Justiciar]

Maxialphas:

Me thinks you have already made up your mind. I detect a considerable bias in your responses to those who confirm what you want to do! We have all been there at some point so good luck on your chosen path.

[Lister Noble]

Max,
Go for it,as Stik said,it's no good looking back and regretting not having done things.
I've had a good life overall,and sometimes people have said I'm lucky to have this or that or done certain things etc and I've always replied that you make your own luck.
You have the family behind you,so work hard,play hard and I wish you all the best for the future.
Lister:)

[Keef]

Don't try to do three things at once. Two at once is enough.

I used to teach at Business Schools ("from the coalface" stuff about practical application of the theory). It was very apparent that for any individual student, 80% or so of what they learned was irrelevant to what they were going to do. Some hadn't a clue, for example, on investment analysis - which is a critical skill for those spending serious money.

Decide what you want to do first, then decide the right path to get there. If you don't know where you're going, any path will take you there.

[GYAKR]

ben, i don't wish to sound negative but as a location photographer (& a yak 50 owner) working in central london for 15 years, much of that traveling worldwide for plc's can i say that you are considering entering a business that is:

a) cut throat

b) full of competitors who have assisted since the age of 18-20

c) awash with portfolios built up over many years

d) cutting its day rates every year whilst time hungry raw processing has replaced dropping the film with a lab in EC2

e) and without sounding tired of it (i'm not...its a great job) a dying trade as we'll all be taking high res stills from hdv cameras before you know it.

so.. would i recommend it ? yes... 20 years ago but at 30-33 starting from scratch... no way & i would hope that you'd do a bit more research - the last place a designer/ad agency will look is the yellow pages & people that do will ask you to photograph their cat or old granny.
starting out when i did was fine and the lifestyle has been unbelievable but you really need to look elsewhere in my opinion.

hope it works out but i'd do something like the flying micro-light school and have some fun outdoors

[vkw91]

In a way, I am in a similar situation to you maxialphas, but without just without a family of my own (still living with my parents!). However, I am currently supporting my parents financially due to my fathers illness.

By day I am a freelance graphic/web developer (4 successful years in the industry) and also am just about to go into my second year of my digital media degree. Luckily for me, I have got welsh grants behind me and also my first year was free due to the fact I started a year early. However, I did take out the student loans due to the fact that they are a lot more cost effective than getting one in the "real world" later on in life - I have never spent a penny of any of it!

From my experience, to work for yourself in the creative industries, is not just a 9 to 5 job, and especially when it is also your hobby/passion, you start to feel that there is no end to the work. I absolutely love my job, but sometimes you feel overwhelmed by it, and somehow need a release. Now the problem I find is where do you get that release from when what you do everyday is also your hobby?

For me, I am just starting to get my wings so to speak, and have recently completed my trial flight, and loved every minute. I am planning on building up the student loan to pay for my flying lessons, and do it for the sheer pleasure of it!

My advise: Always keep something as a hobby, but do both - live is for living!!

Hope this helps.

V

[MichaelJP59]

Just to add a thought to the others as I've run my own business for 20+ years, I fully support what you're doing, the only question mark for me would be the academic course. I'd have thought you could learn what you need to know in a few weeks of directed self-study and from then on practical experience is the best way.

Good luck though; as you already know, it's far better than working for someone else!

[maxialphas]

Hi,

Your probably right i could learn in a few weeks self study but i think your overlooking the reason behind me going to university.

I get a degree at the end of it, gain valuable skills i dont have currently, get to start a business with no risk (i dont need to take any wage at all due to my student loan paying my way), student loan is an excellent rate for a loan and the banks just arent lending at the moment anyway and i have all this pressure free for 3yrs

If it takes me 2yrs to get my licence, buy a microlight, get my fi rating and get an airfield that will let me rent a unit (found 2 already for a very good price) thats still 1 year i can run it with very little outgoings.

I think its the best idea , and yes i have decided im going to run a microlight school!

[gasax]

I've reached 'that' age. I am well paid and can afford all sorts of toys. I love sailing so I think becoming a sailing instructor would be very fulfilling. Ditto I love flying and becoming an instructor would also be very fulfilling.

Of course neither really pay a living wage and all my toys would probably have to go - including my plane, two boats and my toy car. Perhaps I should also go to university to get a degree in astro-physics, with a cheap loan and whilst I'm there I would love to develop my photographic skills and specialise in nude super models?

Do you think I should throw everything up and pursue my dream? Please be gentle and don't wake me from my dream..................

[maxialphas]

gasax,

Would you like to tell me the point in your reply if all it was to do was take the piss out of someone who actually wants to live his dream?

Some people just like to mock people who can get off their arse and make it happen.

Ben

[vkw91]

I agree with Ben.

gasax, it does seem a little uncalled for.

[gasax]

Get a life maxiphas!

If you think you should live your life according to the replies on an anonymous bulletin board you need a very stiff reality check!

Either you put your heart and soul into what you are doing - or if there is any challenge in it you will fail. Yes, that is not very 'touchy feely' but unfortunately that is how the world works.

Obviously your 'heart and soul' appears to be in living off a cheap loan and having some fun. It will probably work - if you can get a university place - which presently may take a little more effort tan in the past.

But apart from occuping some bandwidth has your posting in any way altered your thinking? Guaranteed not to I would guess.

I prefer Luke Rheinhart's approach to yours - there is no direction to yours.

[maxialphas]

Get a life maxiphas!

If you think you should live your life according to the replies on an anonymous bulletin board you need a very stiff reality check!

Either you put your heart and soul into what you are doing - or if there is any challenge in it you will fail. Yes, that is not very 'touchy feely' but unfortunately that is how the world works.

I know how the world works thanks.
Obviously your 'heart and soul' appears to be in living off a cheap loan and having some fun. It will probably work - if you can get a university place - which presently may take a little more effort tan in the past.

Your very judgemental. I pay it back so whats the difference? I already got a place thanks. See my entrepenerial spirit made sure of that!

But apart from occuping some bandwidth has your posting in any way altered your thinking? Guaranteed not to I would guess.

I prefer Luke Rheinhart's approach to yours - there is no direction to yours.

Go and get a life yourself. You seem to me to be a boring old fart who hates the thought of doing something you dont have the intelligence or balls to do.

Bye x

[Justiciar]

Some people just like to mock people who can get off their arse and make it happen.

Unfortunately most people fall on their arse at some point and often the higher they go with their ill considered climb the further and harder they fall.

I said earlier that you had already made up your mind. Your last response makes me wonder why you bothered to ask the question in the first place. You have clearly been given some answers you dont like. That last reply also begs the question as to whether you have the right mental attitude to navigate yourself through some really challenging times, both financial and personal.

[Supersport]

Maxialphas - remember;

Those that can - DO
Those that can't - PREACH

Don't rise to the bait on here mate! The plethora of armchair know it alls on here will always try and shoot you down! You've made up your mind, JFDI!

[maxialphas]

Hi again Supersport,

I dont let people like that get me down. I deal with enough suppliers with similar attitude for it to faze me lol

As for me not having the right mental attitude well thats just nonsense!

Well i have found a FTO locally, discussed the correct way to train and have booked a block of 10hrs with a good discount to start.

Its onwards and upwards now , excuse the pun haha


Ben

[Justiciar]

The plethora of armchair know it alls on here will always try and shoot you down!

Has it occured to you that some of the people you are referring to (about whom you in fact know little) have "f***ing done it", are speaking from their personal experience and have spent considerable parts of their life anywhere but an armchair :ugh:

Our friend has told us he has a family and a business. He is about to study and learn to fly on borrowed money. He is thinking of setting up a microlight school or becoming a flying instructor. If he has any brain at all he will already have considered the economics, which are that flying instruction of almost any sort pays s**t, running any flight training organisation involves very low margins and is very susceptable to economic conditions - it also needs an airfield, but our friend has not told us if he has one in mind nor has he hinted at where the very considerable capital cost will come from, given that he will already be heavily in debt from three years of study and learning to fly

It doesn't appear much of a life plan from my arm chair. This is all driven by a love of flying, though he doesn't yet have a licence (I hope he hasn't paid too much up front for lessons - PPrune is littered with the tales of those who lost their money doing this, but hey, we mustn't be negative). Most of us sadly just work to fly, because the economics of that arrangement are so much more favourable, but then what do I know? Once he gets over the initial euphoria of first lesson, then first solo then getting his licence he may experience a bit of a reality check, if he is really lucky (before he spends another £25k of his own or borrowed money on crawling towards a commercial licence and Instructor Rating whilst at the same time having to earn a living).

[Supersport]

Has it occured to you that some of the people you are referring to (about whom you in fact know little) have "f***ing done it", are speaking from their personal experience and have spent considerable parts of their life anywhere but an armchair

Obviously. From perusing these forums on a regular basis, yes one does easily conclude that a number of users are in fact fairly well informed / educated and have 'been there and done it'.

However, one can also conclude that a number users quite enjoy demoralising others using various tones of condescending diatribe.

Apologies if I seemed ignorant in my previous post, it was not my intention. I just detest the pesimistic attitudes that so frequently riddle perfectly good natured threads on here (Get used it I hear you say!? This is PPRuNe!).

I guess Mr Gates, Branson, Sugar et al, to name but a few were all p*ssed on when they were starting out.

SS600 - (Officially eating his own words - sorry couldn't resist rising to it!)

[RatherBeFlying]

The best way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a large oneSuccessful businessmen spot opportunities and exploit them. Your figuring out that taking a course qualifies you for a loan to do a PPL etc. shows a good mind for business:E

[maxialphas]

RBF,

Glad you can see that as not many can.

Do people think banks borrow money to small businesses for the fun? NO , they borrow money to small businesses to make money out of them , to exploit their need for cashflow.

All i am doing is the same apart from i will be paying it back at avery favourbale rate (£70 per month max)

Yes i do have a good head for business, i turned a failing company into a profitable one. The only reason i want to get out of computers now is i have no passion for it.

The credit crunch has affeected everyone but i still manage to stay afloat. The same would happen with a microlight school.

Yes some may frown on the way i am doing it but the end of the day i have a vision, a target i want to hit and i will get there no matter what. If thats sitting on my armchair dreaming then so be it.

I already have 2 airfields willing to base my school (one i have been visiting for 10yrs or more and am very friendly with the owner as i did his computer for him) and the other which is about 20 miles away form my home.

Either way i will make it succeed as i have 2yrs once i have my PPL to run the school with very little outlay.

Oh and already sourced an instructor who is willing to train for me for £20ph, as long as it fits in with his schedule.

You see , we arent all dreamers. It just comes down to optimism that afew of you lack.

Ben

[BackPacker]

I guess Mr Gates, Branson, Sugar et al, to name but a few were all p*ssed on when they were starting out.

Sure. Compare yourself to Mr. Gates, Mr. Branson, Mr. O'Leary or whoever you want if you think that's going to help. When we start our own business we're always looking at the shiny examples, "10 habits of highly effective people" and similar things. What we do not realize, often, is that most of these guys have had a succession of lucky breaks, being at the right place and time when something important happened. Plus, to a large extent, they had a unique vision of what their customers wanted and the industry was not providing. Branson vs. BA for instance.

But now that we're talking about the shiny and successful companies in aviation, here's a list of just a few airlines that went bust in 2008. (Taken from the Dutch aviation forum atcbox.com.) Most of these thought they were the next Virgin, Easyjet or Ryanair but somehow failed. Leaving in their wake debts, angry customers, insurance claims, shattered dreams and so forth.

01/01/2008 Alpi Eagles
06/01/2008 Aero Airlines
08/01/2008 BRTJ BritishJet.com
23/01/2008 CST Coast Air
14/01/2008 FFP Prima Charter
30/01/2008 City Star Airlines
11/02/2008 VID Aviaprad Airlines
29/02/2008 Boston-Maine Airways
08/03/2008 BigSky
13/03/2008 GirJet
18/03/2008 DHI Adam Air
25/03/2008 QSC African Safari Airways
30/03/2008 Freedom Air
30/03/2008 Airclass Airways
31/03/2008 JAA Japan Asia Airways
29/04/2008 NTW Nationwide Airlines
28/04/2008 AAH Aloha Airlines
02/04/2008 AMT ATA Airlines
09/04/2008 OHK Oasis Hong Kong Airlines
27/04/2008 ESS Eos Airlines
20/04/2008 VCX Ocean Airlines
07/04/2008 SKB Skybus Airlines
05/04/2008 SYW Skyway Airlines
11/04/2008 SWX Swazi Express Airways
03/05/2008 Mihin Lanka
13/05/2008 AOL Angkor Airways
09/05/2008 EMX Euromanx
13/05/2008 FEA Far Eastern Air Transport
23/05/2008 Club Air
30/05/2008 SLR Silverjet
31/05/2008 CCP Champion Air
10/06/2008 Magnicharters
11/06/2008 Aerocondor
16/07/2008 Yeti Airlines
21/07/2008 Ankair
21/07/2008 One-Two-Go
29/07/2008 Riau Airlines
13/08/2008 GCO Gemini Air Cargo
04/08/2008 SER Aerocalifornia
05/08/2008 Avolar
05/08/2008 Nova Air
28/08/2008 OOM Zoom Airlines
28/08/2008 UKZ Zoom Airlines (UK)
09/09/2008 FUA Futura International Airways
09/09/2008 FGL Futura Gael
11/09/2008 Air Bee
12/09/2008 XLA XL Airways UK
15/09/2008 APKX Air Pack Express
15/09/2008 AeBal
17/09/2008 Dalavia Russia
06/10/2008 Galaxy Airlines (Japan)
09/10/2008 Lagunair Spain
16/10/2008 Flysur Spain
17/10/2008 LTE Spain
17/10/2008 Omskavia
17/10/2008 Interavia
17/10/2008 Tesis
17/10/2008 Vyborg Airlines
18/10/2008 Hansung Airlines
20/10/2008 Flysur
21/10/2008 Aladia (Mexico)
29/10/2008 Sterling AirwaysAirlines
31/10/2008 Air Comet (Chile)
31/10/2008 Kras Air
01/11/2008 Domodedovo Airlines
08/11/2008 Alma (Mexico)
11/11/2008 Inter Airlines (Turkey)
01/12/2008 European Aviation Aircharter
01/12/2008 Primaris Airlines
01/12/2008 Siem Reap Airways International
03/12/2008 Flightline
06/12/2008 OK Air

What is your unique vision? What is your microlight school going to offer to your customers that other microlight schools are not providing? For starters, how many potential customers are there in the area where you intend to setup your business, and how much competition? I haven't seen any mention of the word customers so far in this whole thread. But they're the ones that eventually are going to pay off your debt and pay for your future dreams.

And just for the record, I have an MBA. But I found out that the MBA doesn't teach you to setup and run a successful business. What it teaches you is the basics of all the things that are required to setup and run a successful business: finance, HR, marketing, logistics and so forth. But at the end of the course you still have to identify that unique place in the market where money is to be made, because you are providing something to your customers that nobody else does.

[Fly-by-Wife]

banks borrow money to small businesses

If you can't tell the difference between "borrow" and "lend", you are destined to go far in business. :rolleyes:

For the avoidance of any future doubt, banks LEND TO businesses, while businesses BORROW FROM banks.

Successful businesses repay the loan(s), btw. Although truly spectacular failures also bring down the bank(s).

FBW

[maxialphas]

Well done flybywife , you made yourself look clever.:}

Ok , banks LEND to small businesses.

Im not going to commnt on this anymore as its just getting a dumping ground for smart arses to try and find holes inmy theory.

I will also put my success story up in the future to shut you grumpy lot up.

Bye

[Justiciar]

The credit crunch has affeected everyone but i still manage to stay afloat. The same would happen with a microlight school.

I really am beginning to think that this is a giant wind up and I guess we are all falling for it, me included.

I cannot understand why you are bothering to ask anything, particularly as you appear to have joined PPrune just to ask this question. You clearly have done some research but your attitude to business and risk puzzles me. You say you have turned around a failing business. Good, then you must uderstand the way markets work and also understand that there is a world of difference between what is now a mainstream established business with presumably a good customer base and goodwill, i.e. computers, and flight training, which at the level you want to do it is and always will be a luxury activity. All, and I mean all, the flight schools in my area have had a torid time of it over the last few months. They have stayed afoat but others do not.

I already have 2 airfields willing to base my school (one i have been visiting for 10yrs or more and am very friendly with the owner as i did his computer for him) and the other which is about 20 miles away form my home.

OK, they may allow you to occupy their hanger and offices for free, or will they want you to sign a lease for several years, and probably pay a rent deposit. I am not sure if you friendly instructor charging you £20 an hour is the instructor your fledgling school intends to rely on to teach its students, but an arrangement "as long as it fits in with his schedule" is hardly a sound basis for operations when you are trying to build a student base.

we arent all dreamers. It just comes down to optimism that afew of you lack

Optimism is hugely important, but it is an additional quality and not a substitute for a sound business model. You seem to think that successful business rely simply on attitude and balls and nothing else. Those entrepreneurs who succeed do have those qualities but also understand their market and the economics and have a well thought out business plan. They are not casual b*llsh***ers who just talk the talk.

Do people think banks borrow money to small businesses for the fun? NO , they borrow money to small businesses to make money out of them , to exploit their need for cashflow.

I assume you are referring to banks lending rather than borrowing money! Particularly in the current climate they will want to see that you business can generate enough cash to pay their loan and to keep the wheels turning. They will want to see you plan with specific projections for cash, outgoings and profit. If you can persuade them to lend to you it will be at significantly higher rate than you are curently paying on a student loan and it is likely that you house will be charged as additional security.

[airborne_artist]

Some facts:

The market is over-supplied with newly-qualified FIs for JAA PPL training (read the FI forum).

There is not a large market for full time FI(M) - most are part-time, and the ones that are full-time are probably making £25,000 tops, I think you'll find. A small number may do better than that, but given UK winter daylight, weather and customers you can't bank on it.

[BackPacker]

Maxi, do you see a contradiction here?

I am going to need 30k per annum

Oh and already sourced an instructor who is willing to train for me for £20ph, as long as it fits in with his schedule.

A full time job is roughly 40 weeks of 40 hours = 1600 hours. Times £20ph is £32000. That means that you have to actually train people full-time, and do things like administration, marketing and everything in your own time to get the income you want. And it assumes zero downtime because of weather, maintenance, late cancellations, airport closures or other snags. Or do you think you can ask significantly more than the current market price for microlight training?

i would still make money out of the £100 per hour training charge that is typical these days.

Of course if you own the aircraft you might just make a tiny bit of profit on the rental rates but search the forums for "cheap hour building" and you'll find that it's very, very rare to be able to operate a reasonable aircraft, even a microlight, for much less than £80ph. So that profit won't be much. And of course, if the students you are training are going solo at some point in time, you only make the rental profit and are sitting idle on the ground because you have no airplane to train others on. And what happens when, after obtaining their PPL, they come back to you in droves to rent your aircraft so that they can finally exercise their PPL privileges?

Im not going to commnt on this anymore as its just getting a dumping ground for smart arses to try and find holes inmy theory.

Maybe one day you'll learn that the best friends you have are not the ones who put you up a pedestal and admire everything you say. The best friends are the ones that are willing to refuse you something, or poke holes in your theories, to prevent you from getting harmed.

And a lot of the smart arses 'round here have been in the industry for a considerable time and know what works and not. Whereas you don't even have a PPL yet, let alone an FI ticket.

Please dont dimiss this as another silly thread , its a true dilemma and need some advice.

If all you wanted is moral support, you should have said so. Don't dismiss the advice because you don't like it.

Basically i want a fresh start.

Did anyone mention the term "mid-life crisis" already?

[spernkey]

Check your pm's Maxi!!!! SB

[larzabell]

Hi

You should also consider the fact that you have to start with an AFI rating for microlights.

This means you can only instruct under the supervision of a CFI at a school. You can only become a full FI (QFI) when you have a certain amount of hours instructing (something like 200).

-Your gonna need to be employed as a microlight instructor to build experience for a while before you can start your own school.:rolleyes: