One frequent travelers views on certain expat pilots

[nolimitholdem]

An article for our new dear friend, galactica...best quote:

At this point I don’t care how well-groomed the flight attendants are, how expansive the menu, how chilled the champagne or how big the flat bed, the reason I’ve paid to fly on this particular carrier is safety and a polished service record. If I can’t understand what the hell the crew are trying to say, then all that money invested in advertising and marketing, slick paint jobs and a bulging order book for new aircraft means precious little.

Food for thought for certain "Gulf-hugging" airlines that tend to treat their pilots like a disposable commodity rather than a valuable asset:

Clearly, a world dominated by British, Australian and Canadian airline pilots is not an option but, as some of the bigger global carriers try to save money by hiring pilots from lower-wage markets, they need to think hard what this says about their brand image and how it plays to their most frequent and high-revenue passengers – most of whom are looking for safety, consistency and value over air miles and cheap fares.

Eat it, TC...

An Air of Confidence

By Tyler Brûlé

Published: July 25 2009 01:36 | Last updated: July 25 2009 01:36

What’s the sweetest sound to welcome you when you board a long-haul flight? Is it a flight attendant welcoming you by name? Is it a soothing soundtrack drifting out of the speakers? Perhaps it’s a silence that suggests there may not be a gaggle of screaming toddlers within earshot? Or what about the sucking thud of the door being closed on time?

My autumn work cycle??... kicked off on Sunday evening with a gentle jolt as I made the trek out to Heathrow to board a flight to Hong Kong. A typhoon passing through HK, along with generally stormy forecasts, had me on edge but then the most wonderful melody boomed through the aircraft: “Good evening ladies and gentleman. This is your captain speaking, and welcome to this Cathay Pacific flight bound for Hong Kong.”

While there was nothing particularly reassuring in this standard script, it was the plummy confidence of a captain who sounded as if he used to fly Phantoms for the RAF that allowed me to settle back. There was further relief as he named the first officer who’d be doing the flying. I think the name might have been Bruce or perhaps Wayne or maybe even Darryl – whatever it was, it was a name only Canadian or Aussie parents would choose. Confirmation came minutes later when some distinctly Canadian vowels exited the speaker telling the crew, “Seats for take-off.”

I’m not sure about you, dear reader, but the cockpit combo matters greatly to me. No question that big Boeings and Airbuses do many things on their own but it’s capable men and women who keep these generally gentle beasts not just stable in the skies but stop them from venturing down the wrong taxi-ways, steer them away from ghastly cloud formations and also inspire confidence in crew members and passengers alike.

At the risk of deluging the FT’s letters editor, give me a British captain at the controls, followed by a Canadian, Aussie, American, German or a Swede any day. My reasoning? English is the official language of the skies and if you’ve ever spent any time in a commercial cockpit – remember the good old days when you could sit in the jump-seat on oversold flights? – you’ll know how hairy it can get in the busy airspace approaching London, LA or New York, as controllers fire out routings, level changes and traffic alerts.

For my safety, sanity and money, I’d rather not have someone on the joystick who needs to ask twice or who gets a digit or two wrong while changing radio frequencies. And, dare I say it, there are simple cultural issues at play as well. Is it a coincidence that I once had an Italian pilot fly his MD-80 like a Tornado on approach to Pisa airport?

If you ever happen to find yourself at a hotel frequented by airline crews, then you might want to entertain and inform yourself by buying a round of drinks for some pilots one evening. You’ll find there’s a reason why there are wider approach margins in many countries and, no, it has nothing to do with technology. You’ll also find that countries with appalling highway safety records also have pilots with similar reputations at 35,000ft – and no, it’s not just RAF or RAAF pilots who’ll tell you this. The Swiss, Dutch, Kiwis and South Africans will all happily confirm that many Med-hugging nations have a “special” way of flying and that, for some airlines, a small prayer is part of their standard operating procedure.

As carriers great, small and just launching fight their way through balance sheets and try to figure out how to scrape a margin in an increasingly challenging civil aviation market, it does concern me how much board members and investors think about what their brand sounds like over the intercom.

On a recent flight back from Singapore, I had to struggle to pick up what the captain and the first officer were trying to convey. As the aircraft was fresh off the assembly line, I can assure you that there was no problem with the public address system, but the speakers’ accents left more than a few passengers confused as we were tossed about over the Bay of Bengal.

At this point I don’t care how well-groomed the flight attendants are, how expansive the menu, how chilled the champagne or how big the flat bed, the reason I’ve paid to fly on this particular carrier is safety and a polished service record. If I can’t understand what the hell the crew are trying to say, then all that money invested in advertising and marketing, slick paint jobs and a bulging order book for new aircraft means precious little.

Clearly, a world dominated by British, Australian and Canadian airline pilots is not an option but, as some of the bigger global carriers try to save money by hiring pilots from lower-wage markets, they need to think hard what this says about their brand image and how it plays to their most frequent and high-revenue passengers – most of whom are looking for safety, consistency and value over air miles and cheap fares.

Tyler Brûlé is editor-in-chief of Monocle

[Duh]

Quote:
Clearly, a world dominated by British, Australian and Canadian airline pilots is not.......


And albeit this group has some of the better aviators to choose from, they aren't necessarily the best to choose from. :}

[airwave45]

The world as we understand it, is changing. what may be percieved by some as racism is percieved by others as practical.

In these days of enforced, legitimised "PC" you are not allowed to point out the blindingly obvious.

nolimitholdem, for fear of being ravaged by those left out of your list, possibly best to dump the thread . . ?

(entertaining if you don't tho . . as I sit in the sandpit during ramadamadingdong)

[axialflow]

Another 'best' quote:

If you ever happen to find yourself at a hotel frequented by airline crews, then you might want to entertain and inform yourself by buying a round of drinks for some pilots one evening.

...just make sure they are not in uniform on the way to the airport... especially if they are ex British Airways!

oh another 'best quote':

You’ll also find that countries with appalling highway safety records also have pilots with similar reputations at 35,000ft

...did your research include pilots from countries with high crime rates...lets say S'Africa for ****s and giggles...those guys must be all crooks?? or from a former prison colony...huh!!!!:ooh:

Actually, its a well-written article, no doubt, although its slightly neo-nazi for my taste.

PEACE
Ax

[Miles Gustaph]

I think that article says a lot of what people in the industry are thinking at the moment, and I agree with the above that some people may see this as raciest but I'm sorry I'm of the safety first school of thought and it is seriously worrying the caliber of people that can be found in some sectors of the industry.

I suppose the problem is exacerbated by the current financial climate in conjunction with a massive global skills shortage but without wandering further than PPRuNe take a look at some of the threads that are started here, a plethora of "how do I become an engineer' "how do I become a pilot" threads that are unreadable because of the authors inability to communicate in English, it's worrying!

There is a great thread on here from, I guess it's from an Emirates First Officer who, if you can piece together what he's written, criticizes the openness of the reporting culture in Emirates.... because he's "the boss" of the aircraft... crazy.

I'm with Tyler Brûlé, give me a good quality pair of Pilots up-front who I understand when they make anouncements and it's very comforting.

It's a shame that were even discussing this monumentally huge safety issue in the context of our industry, we really shouldn't be in this situation and we shouldn't have to even consider this.

I hate think where this will end up when you take cultural issues that can be seen in the Middle East where there are moves to get Nationals to fly local airlines, as apposed to the best person for the job.

[Jumbo744]

:ugh::ugh:

who is this guy ?? what an idiot honestly!
I have flown with many airlines from many different countries, and I know many pilots from many nationalities. Wether you are canadian, american, nigerian, french, or lybian, has nothing to do with your flying abilities. It all comes to the training you received, experience you have and your attitude towards flying. I couldn't care less about the voice or the accent of the pilots.

[Miles Gustaph]

Jumbo744 "It all comes to the training you received, experience you have and your attitude towards flying." no argument there, I totally agree, however as passengers we don't get to interview or see copies of the flight crew CV's, and as the ability to communicate in English is part of qualifying, when you hear a broken, semi-English announcement by a Pilot, it does make you wonder about "the training you received, experience you have and your attitude towards flying."

[thesilversurfer]

Neil Armstrong once replied to a journalist,who made a remark about his introvert nature.." The only bird that talks is a parrot...and parrots dont fly very well"..
Sounding smooth on the PA doesn't necessarily mean one has good airmanship and stick and rudder skills.. However some guys have it all and I envy them..

Safe Flying,

SS:ok:

[Miles Gustaph]

SS, cracking quote!:ok:
I have to agree with you on "Sounding smooth on the PA doesn't necessarily mean one has good airmanship and stick and rudder skills" but the article above was from a passengers point of view... yes a pilots eloquence is no guarantee of his airman ship but a pilot you cant understand isn't good for the moral of passengers and is not a good starting point.

[Phantom Driver]

While there was nothing particularly reassuring in this standard script, it was the plummy confidence of a captain who sounded as if he used to fly Phantoms for the RAF that allowed me to settle back.:ok: But then maybe I'm biased!

[nmejiab]

You must be a total racist to find any sense in this article. Measuring your flying skills by the way you speak english is the same as measuring your mental abilities by the color of your skin. Not so many years ago scientist of some nationalities mentioned by this socalled journalist, said that balck people were not able to use their brains in the same way white people, meaning that balck people were not as intelligent as white people. Today this kind of thinking is almost a crime.

I have flown with some latino, middle estern, asian and black pilots that have showed me the best way to do the job; and flown with some american, german, swedish, pilots with whom I would never travel as a passenger.

I hope this nonsense is banned from this forum.

[trimotor]

Surely, the facts are irrelevant - the point is that it's all about perception -the only performance indicators the travelling armchair experts get of our flying skills are the PA and the landing.

Of course, the PA has nothing to do with it, but it's often all you will be, wrongly, judged on, hence many companies insistence of the PA's importance.

Anyway, to give you someting to get the knives out for, it is my opinion that there is a perception amongst many that some parts of the world are not known for he excellence of the training or attitude towards avaition - which can be correlated to social norms: evidence the cultures where subordinates are not free to speak up, the loss of face as a result of a go-around, etc, etc. Papers have been published, recently, on this stuff (so it's not really just my opionion.). That said, there are good and bad from everywhere.

Historical accident rates speak for themselves and they are not racist.

Sorry, the truth is out there.

TM

[kit330]

thesilversurfer-excellent quote of Armstrong
nmejiab-well put

yes this was a view from a pax perception but for professional pilots to even entertain such a racists artical is a shame!!!!:= :=:=

[4HolerPoler]

Based on past experience we really should close this thread as it has all the potential of nosing over into a spiral of racial, xenophobic rhetoric and vitriol.

But I will keep it open in the hope that it generates constructive dialogue and an appreciation that some of the SLF do appreciate your dulcet tones. And that if you duff or sound incompetent in conducting a PA to the pax, that there is a strong possibility you're not the sharpest aviator in the sky.

Clearly antagonistic posts will be flushed and be rewarded with a week in the cooler.

4HP

[Trader]

Perhaps it is the not the pilots (or their race) that is really in question but rather the fact that they come from areas of the world where rules may be lax. They may be great pilots but that is not going to help when the maintenance lacks!

EK just fired at least one pilot because he was taking photos on the ramp!! Image matters to some people and some companies.

The cry of racism is nothing more than attempt to stifle conversation. If we were talking about Americans or Europeans in a poor light no one would think twice.

The article speaks of perception--that simple.

[Miles Gustaph]

I think our moderator has been very generous in allowing us to discuss this topic:

Why is it racist for a passenger to form an opinion of a pilots ability based upon a public announcement?

The people who pay our wages have "moments" to place their faith in us, is it unreasonable that they expect us to be understood? especially when it is part of our qualification regime!

I'm sorry but I feel that there is a more than a few God complexes being shown here, and that some of our number have forgotten that we are here to service the public, safely, not just ferry them around if we can be bothered...

[shortfuel]

While there was nothing particularly reassuring in this standard script, it was the plummy confidence of a captain who sounded as if he used to fly Phantoms for the RAF that allowed me to settle back. There was further relief as he named the first officer who’d be doing the flying. I think the name might have been Bruce or perhaps Wayne or maybe even Darryl – whatever it was, it was a name only Canadian or Aussie parents would choose. Confirmation came minutes later when some distinctly Canadian vowels exited the speaker telling the crew, “Seats for take-off.”

What kind of SLF is relieved when he notices that F/O's name is Canadian or Aussie...a racist one perhaps?

some of the bigger global carriers try to save money by hiring pilots from lower-wage markets, they need to think hard what this says about their brand image

Yeah, so true...:ugh: Some global carriers have a two-tier system. One pay scale for westerners and another one for lower-wage market pilots...and having Malaysian, Chinese, African, ... pilots would be detrimental for its image (?!!!?). :yuk:

Lots of BS in this racist-wrapped article.

Clean your Monocle Tyler before you try such an analysis!

I suggest Tyler Brûlé as he checks the pitot manufacturer on his A330 flights (as he wrote it) to have a look at pilots ICAO level as well...just for a further relief.

I hope no respectable airline pilots give any credit to this paper.

[Willie Everlearn]

Dammit.
I thought passengers judged our abilities on the basis of our landings, the bad ones at least were easily blamed on the F/O. :eek:
Drat! Time for a new strategy. :ok:

Willie

[Not Gulfair CEO]

Now what kind of passengers are we talking about? Because The chinese, Thai, Arab, German, french, russian, polish............................dont give a toss if you say "Hello Fox" or G'Day to them.So I suppose this perception landed from the chosen ones.

[Panama Jack]

It's the 21st Century. Racism and machismo have survived the last century, obviously. But should we be surprised about these types of uninformed views from our customers?

What is more disturbing, in my view, is when these types of attitudes prevail at the corporate level. I remember reading a post a couple of years ago from a forum member, supposedly a Chief Pilot at a company in a Western country who commented about how we sorts out new applicant resumes. "First, I get rid of the ones from applicants with Al Qaeda-sounding names." I suppose that with an applicant of British nationality and with a name like Richard Reid, one cannot go wrong!

I wonder what Tyler Brûlè thinks of "girl pilots?"

[Capt Roo]

There used to be a sign at the Calcutta Club "Dogs and Indians not allowed"

No doubt Tyler Brule and many readers of this forum would have approved.

[Ancient Observer]

I went right off the Calcutta Club when a guest - not a member of staff - found a dead monkey in the swimming pool.

[ShinjukuHustler]

Mid 90's on TWA JFK-PHX I was amused to hear that the voice giving the address sounded just like Jack Palance...a deep, gravelly and authoritave voice from the sharp end certainly goes some way to putting you at ease on a cold night after spending 2hrs waiting to be de-iced!

Hustle On :ok:

[FlyingOW]

I wouldn't call the author a racist as such, but rather a xenophobe.

OW

[Jet II]

Mid 90's on TWA JFK-PHX I was amused to hear that the voice giving the address sounded just like Jack Palance...a deep, gravelly and authoritave voice from the sharp end certainly goes some way to putting you at ease on a cold night after spending 2hrs waiting to be de-iced!


I hate to point it out but Jack Palance always died. :{

[Union Jack]

At this point I don’t care how well-groomed the flight attendants are

Well they do at Air Asia apparently, according to this thread:

Jobs for GOOD LOOKING people only at Air Asia. (http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/386248-jobs-good-looking-people-only-air-asia.html)

running concurently on the South Asia and Far East forum

I wonder what some of the more critical posters on this thread make of that ......:)

Jack

PS And also the fact that, in addition to being "Well groomed and good looking", candidates for flight attendant must have" Fluent spoken English"!

[High 6]

One would hope that in this day and age, pilots flying large transport aircraft for a reputable airline are capable of achieving and maintaining a relatively higher than average flying standard. They should have been selected through a stringent interviewing process, trained to a highly regulated syllabus and kept current with regular six monthly check rides. The requirement to be able to do all this at a high level of English goes without saying.

So if he/she has an exotic sounding name, or gives PA's with an accent, who gives a rats? As long as they can fly the machine and handle emergencies that's what saves lives, not PA's in the queens english. Sorry to shatter that myth..

Mmmm I wonder if I should have emblazoned on my medical insurance card, "In the event of a life saving operation, I want to be operated on only by a doctor who has a British accent and can quote Shakespeare" :ugh:

[Miles Gustaph]

I'm amazed and disappointed at the number of posters who have turned a passengers perspective and ligitimate concern of a Pilot's announcement in accordance with ICAO language expectations into a raciest issue... instead of rallying around and trying to put at ease anyone who may reads this there is a core group who has jumped onto the racist band wagon.... the attitude of "I don't have to answer or justify my actions because I say it's racist" isn't a lot of good if your rubbish attitude causes someone to be injured because they didn't understand a word you've just said over the PA system.

It sounds to me like the bigger issue is perhaps one of pilot ego in conflict with standards... 15 or 20 years ago there was a massive purge in the UK of surgeons with a God complex who knew better than everyone... perhaps we need this in our industry, then perhaps the accident rates might improve because the people left might just have the right attitudes and the passengers who we ae all critically short of at the moment may feel a little more secure and safer when they travel with people who they have faith in rather than are expected to have faith in.

[atpcliff]

Hi!

A PA announcement has nothing to do with flying. As an PAX airline pilot, you are not flying cargo, or by yourself, so part of the job is doing a good job communicating effectively to your PAX. THere was a recent American pilot column about how most US PAX pilots suck on their PA announcements.

As far as good English speaking pilots being able to communicate effectively with ATC, it DEPENDS. I am based in NBO, and the local pilots have an easier time with ATC, because they can understand ATC better than I can. However, if they fly outside of the Brit/Kenyan/Swahili-English area, then they may have more difficulties than me. I just heard an American who spoke PERFECT (well, perfect American English, anyway) English have a VERY difficult time understanding NBO ground-it was also his 1st time at NBO, and the radio comm did not go well.

I would say that right now the European-based (Americans, Aussies, etc.) pilots ARE safer than, say, Africans, not because they are European but because their country is more technologically advanced, and their country has better resources and spends more on training. If you took a typical African, and put him in the same background and training, as, say, a Frenchman, he would do just as well at flying. I flew with some Nigerians in mil flight school, and they did poorly, because they came in under-prepared by their country...not their fault at all...and they tried very hard to make up for it but couldn't.

Also, I do want to point out, that while I feel a "Western" pilot, on average, is better, I have flown with some great African pilots, and some crap American ones. The biggest factor is the motivation and desire of the individual to learn what they need to to be a professional pilot. Also, I am in NBO, and I know that Kenya has more money and resources for training than a lot of other countries in Africa, so I am lucky...good radar, ATC, etc.

I think that countries hiring their own citizens as pilots is the BEST idea, as LONG AS they get the background, training, and support they need to become professional pilots.

If you fly with me, I will TRY, which is THE most important thing!

cliff
NBO
PS-I am studying the British CAA testing materials. Mostly filler, that has nothing to do with flying, to weed out candidates??? Sometimes the stuff I'm learning is interesting, even though it doesn't have much to do with flying, and sometimes it is just plane (Hahahaha!) stupid.

[sexdriven]

Miles,

The entire article is very subjective. There many pilots of various nationalities that do not sound very good when speaking English because it is not their native tongue. However,they still have a very good understanding of the language. If I want to generalise , then I can also use the argument that American pilots are bad because they cannot understand the English spoken on half the our network. I have flown to many places where the controller has had a very good command of the English language but the F/O from a so called preferred nation in the list that this guy mentions, has had trouble understanding because of accent.

Fortunately,or unfortunately for some, English is the official language in aviation.However, it is not the mother tongue for all pilots.That is why most pilots are based on their overall ability ,which includes basic English language proficiency,by the Airlines.So basically if the author of the article is not happy with certain nationalities in a particular airline, then he should not fly on that airline because all the pilots in that airline are trained to the same standard.

Personally I think that the article was written in bad taste as it insinuates that pilots from third world countries are bad in general.

[stepwilk]

One thing that's hard to deny is that in certain societies, men and women begin dealing with machinery as mere children, whether it's the farm tractor they drive as a 12-year-old, the '49 Ford they rebuild in high school, their dad's Piper Cub that they solo at 16, the boat their parents let them drive on the lake during summer vacation as mere kids.

My own daughter began driving at the age of 12, when we'd send her off in the family pickup (yes, manual gearbox) to take the garbage down our quarter-mile-long driveway to the main road for collection. (Today she's 30 and drives our Porsche 911 racecar.)

In other cultures, there are people who never operate or perhaps even see a machine until they're adults, if ever. I would wonder if that has an effect upon one's ability to competently operate complex equipment. Not because it isn't impossible to learn how to do it, but because I would wonder what sort of responses and understandings become ingrained as a part of growing up in a mechanical culture.

[Wacked]

Let the Japanese design things like no one else can, let the chinese build them for the best possible price, let the Arabs provide the fuel to make them run, then let a westerner fly it around the place(and the people who made it).

Its not racist to say that people are different and have different skill sets.

Having said that, the belgians are weird, the germans are uptight, the french can't speak english, the irish drink too much, the english think they own the world, the americans know they own the world, the spanish can't speak english, the italians are lazy, the scottish are like the irish and so are most of the scandinavians. But I'm not rascist. At the end of the day, europeans and north americans have a deep rooted culture in aviation.

[EGGW]

Right this thread has run its course, its just going to wander all over the same old points again and again....

EGGW