CASA + ASA = Axis of Evil

[Ultralights]

Just what is ASA obligations to CASA and the aviation industry when it comes to delivering the services their currently incapable of?
perfect example was the almost complete failure of the system at YSBK today.
Restricted VFR all day, MAX 1 aircraft in the circuit at any time, resulting in 4 hour delay, yep 4 FCUKIN hours for CCTS. up to 3 aircraft at a time delayed at inbound points at 2RN and prospect.
constant radio chatter resulting in serious errors from both aircraft and controllers, aircraft calling ready at holding points given landing clearances, aircraft responding to requests intended for other aircraft, almost a quarter of all calls made over other calls. a total and complete cluster fcuck.

in 15 yrs flying from YSBK, its the first time i have seriously considered calling off all flying simply because it was to dangerous to fly with even advanced students in such conditions.

a Fcuking Disgrace! just what are we paying out airways charges for??


end rant.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Write to the CASA guy, McCormick, who is responsible for this mess, and tell him. :mad::mad:
And the office of airspace regulation.
And CC Anthony Albanese and Maxine McKew and some opposition transport people.
Make sure you emphasise the reduction in SAFETY and increase in congestion at the IRPs and on the radio.
Then tell them how much it is going to cost your company when you can[t access infrastructure that you own as a citizen, and that you pay for in landing charges.

Don't blame ATC, this isn't their doing. Good luck!

[Ultralights]

after thinking about today on the drive home, where would you stand with a class action lawsuit? could you get the bigger players on board with regard to TIBA airspace they have to deal with? and paying for!

considering the massive increase in workload and being pushed to braking point, the ATC guys, and girls at YSBK still manage to be as professional as they could be, after some days i feel like going up to the tower and buying them all a beer or 2. especially today!

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

There is "feedback sought" but only a week left.

Release of Ambidji Report into General Aviation Aerodrome Procedures (GAAP) - feedback sought
The Office of Airspace Regulation (OAR) today released the final report into the Utility of General Aviation Aerodrome Procedures (GAAP) to Australian-administered Airspace. CASA commissioned the Ambidji Group, in conjunction with Lloyd's Register, to conduct a review of airspace management in relation to GAAP as used at Archerfield, Bankstown, Camden, Jandakot, Moorabbin and Parafield aerodromes. The full report is available to download. http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/oar/papers/gaapfull_june09.pdf


Feedback on the OAR GAAP Utility Review is sought from all stakeholders and interested parties. Please send all comments to [email protected] by the close of business 1 September 2009.

OK so it won't let me paste an email address in there. It is info_oarATcasa.gov.au
Though invalid hash sounds about right.


I'm told the Administrative Appeals Tribunal may be the avenue to go down.

From their website:

The Administrative Appeals Tribunal (AAT) provides independent review of a wide range of administrative decisions made by the Australian government and some non-government bodies.

The AAT aims to provide fair, impartial, high quality and prompt review with as little formality and technicality as possible.

[Clearedtoreenter]

It really is pretty bad - and probably more dangerous at the reporting points than it was before they fixed it. The radio congestion is just a nightmare. In risk management terms they'd be better to swallow their pride and go back to what was there before they messed around and then try to work out a real solution.

I agree on the controllers - absolute gentlemen (and ladies) As helpfull as the silly rules allow and keep their cool in situations where most of us might not.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Or spelunking in a live volcano.

The NASdebaters will only say a US ClassD TWR guy can handle all comers from any direction.....they ARE all supermen and use giant condoms and have hundreds of girlfriends and make lots of money and star in movies...!....It's TRUE:eek:

[Ultralights]

im not actually referring to ATC as part of the axis of evil, its ASA, for not providing decent enough terms and conditions that would keep a lot of talented controllers in OZ, where they are desperately needed. i feel the ATC guys on the mikes are just as much the victims of CASA and ASA management fcuk ups as we pilots are.

[FL170]

Must concur with the issue being raised, today was a shocker for all but like others have said, the controllers are the last people you want to be pointing your finger at. All this talk about controllers in training has been around for quite some time; when are we actually going to see an increase in capacity or is it just false hope?

The tether is wearing thing, something must be done!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Isn't there some mechanism to report this? You can make a submission to the report...but wouldn't it be more noticed if there was a stack of incident reports in at the ATSB as well?

Is a REPCON (https://www.atsb.gov.au/external/notifications/ReportREPCON.aspx) of sufficient level to report such occurances of limited access?

[le Pingouin]

Restricted VFR all day, MAX 1 aircraft in the circuit at any timeI take it the restricted VFR wasn't due to weather?

[goin'flyin]

RVFR was nothing to do with the weather.

Same situation on friday afternoon when i came in, ATIS was calling restricted VFR, Cloud was FEW035, VIS 10KM+

This is an absolute nightmare....Accident waiting to happen.

Fill in a report to ATSB, it can't make things any worse than they currently are.

[SayAgainSlowly]

RVFR was nothing to do with the weather.


Spot on.

On friday, yesterday (sunday) and also today there were NOTAMs issued for reduced ATS at BK. AIP states that RVFR is for weather related restrictions, but if the tower is short staffed (or staff unavailable as the NOTAM reads) they obviously cant operate unrestricted VFR operations.

Last time I checked, BK staffs Camden tower each weekend. It will be interesting to see how/if the RVFR due staffing situation improves when CN is set to open HJ 7 days a week.

Great foresight from those at the top.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

The filthy lurgi is the culprit...staffing decimated at the moment.

[Chatz]

Unfortunately there is unlikely to be an increase in controller numbers any time soon. As someone mentioned above, its an incredibly long training process to get someone proficient. Whilst AsA seems to be recruiting the numbers, its doesn't look like they've reviewed their training system, and from what I've seen, people tend to get through in spite of it, not because of it.

That doesn't mean that there aren't individuals in the organisation with the right intent trying to get these people through, just that the OJT system (and I can't speak specifically for BK) seems to lack an evaluate - feedback - review loop to improve it. Which ultimately means that the training result is neither efficient nor the highest quality it could be.

Does that make the situation any better for you all flying locally, no; but no-one outside the industry seems to notice or care what is happening, so we are unlikely to see any changes any time soon.

[longrass]

Why isnt dick smith chirping in?

[Ultralights]

he's still holding at Prospect behind 3 liberties. :}

[KittyKatKaper]

Gaaack... Yer all a bunch of wooses...
I, I, have the solution to the 'problem' of congestion at the inbound reporting points to YSBK.
It's simple., just establish a UNICOM at the reporting points with a couple of blokes with VHF tranceivers in utes at 2RN and Prospect, get the VFR traffic to report on an unused frequency (this'll keep Mr Smith happy), then get the guys to stack the inbound traffic to YSBK into vertical holding patterns., gosh, you've got all of the airspace between 1500' and 2500' to play with, so we'd fit at least 5 aircraft into that.
The guys then coordinate with the tower to let the bottommost aircraft in the stack go inbound. It'll be a fantastic character-building experience for the students. Win Win ! and it'll comply with CASAs 'Fact 3' in their recent 'GAAP changes' booklet where they say 'If you need to hold, or reposition the aircraft to the GAAP approach point, do so in a manner that provides lateral and vertical seperation from other aircraft ...'

Ok, it won't solve Ultralights gripe about long delays for circuits within the GAAP zone, and it might complicate IFR arrivals but........................

[Lodown]

I'd hate to be the CASA/AsA person with his/her signature on the bottom line for implementation. There'll be lots of sleepless nights praying for no accidents while this mess gets sorted out.

[le Pingouin]

But is it anything to do with the new GAAP procedures? Or is it simply a lack of staff? Covert industrial action no doubt :rolleyes:

If you know it's RVFR & chaos is likely why do you put yourself at risk? You wouldn't with weather so why is this any different? I know the causes are different but risk is risk. Easy for me to say in my nice comfy chair but sometimes you gotta say "no".

[Lodown]

Hang on le Pingouin! You're not just talking about recreational flying. This is someone's livelihood. What are they supposed to do? Are flying schools supposed to cancel students because they won't get to fly? Are the charter operators supposed to tell passengers that they need to come out to the airport before 7 am or they won't get off the ground? If CASA implemented a rule that suddenly removed half your wage and left you in doubt about the security of the remainder, how would you react?

New GAAP procedures, or lack of staff...who cares? The bottom line is that companies will fold if this policy continues for any length of time. This is a myopic injection of a dogma and not the thoughtful implementation of an appropriate strategy.

[le Pingouin]

just that the OJT system (and I can't speak specifically for BK) seems to lack an evaluate - feedback - review loop to improve itI think the problem is a bit more fundamental than that. OJT is about training the controller for a specific job & not teaching the basics. To an extent it is sink or swim & if your preparation is inadequate it won't be easy no matter how good you are.

To me the problem stems from a disconnect between what the college is producing & what the field needs - that is where the feedback loop needs to implemented. All we have currently is a management blame game. If it's the same people doing the OJTI on the same sectors & the failure rate suddely heads south where do you look?

[le Pingouin]

Lodown, I fully understand the financial imperative & sympathise, believe it or not - I know it isn't easy when income is at the whim of conditions beyond your control.

That said, you wouldn't fly into a thunderstorm just to meet a schedule or training commitment would you? This is no different.

There would seem to be two separate issues - the new GAAP procedures & an apparent short term lack of staff due to illness. I don't know BK procedures for handling staff shortages but would presume that once they reach certain levels traffic restrictions would be put in place. RVFR would be implemented to allow safe processing of traffic by the available controller(s). Once staff are available RVFR is lifted. No dogma, just safe processing of traffic.

Sh!t happens occasionally & should be allowed for.

[PlankBlender]

le_pingouin, you're not by chance a CASA/ASA cronie?! only a buerocrat could come up with warped logic like that:ugh::ugh::mad:

Only in Oz, is all I can say, in any of the larger aviation markets, the utter incompetence and stupidity of this move would not have gone unpunished, and someone would have been very quick to get an injunction against this rubbish!

Why none of the larger businesses have already done it is beyond me. If I owned a school at Bankstown I would have had my lawyer kick up a massive stink on day two of these shenanigans, including filing a lawsuit against these feckers for compensation for loss of earnings :=

[le Pingouin]

PlankBender, I'm just a controller. Other than restricting traffic how can a safe service be provided with less than required number of controllers? Do you believe any workload can be safely handled, no matter how many aircraft?

Is that what you think is warped?

It's a separate issue to the new GAAP procedures.

[D-J]

PlankBender, I'm just a controller. Other than restricting traffic how can a safe service be provided with less than required number of controllers? Do you believe any workload can be safely handled, no matter how many aircraft?

Is that what you think is warped?

It's a separate issue to the new GAAP procedures.

well at cessnock on a saturday there can be upto 5 a/c in the circuit & you could add that again with a/c inbound & departing. Yet bankstown can only handle 1 a/c in the cct... here's a thought you controllers take some time off & revert back to a ctaf.......

[D-J]

or another thought why not just make gaap airspace TIBA, seems to work elsewhere for ASA when there running short on controllers :E

[PlankBlender]

yep penguin, so according to your logic it was less safe before with the same number of controllers and different rules. how can that be when we now have highly dangerous congestion around the reporting points and pissed off pilots and instructors in the air, stressed out by congested frequencies and loss of income? please explain!:ugh:

[le Pingouin]

Blender, why do you think there was RVFR?

If pilots know it's RVFR why are they trying to continue as if it's not?:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Jabawocky]

Two problems.....

Sick ATC's means the required service is not available, and if you revert to a CTAF/TIBA it will work ...BUT the risks at YSBK would increase over a normally staffed GAAP. The problem is if you try to supply the same service at YSBK with one ATC on staff.............it ends in :{

Second problem is CASA requiring Class D ops and restricted volume....but that has not been the real issue in this debate.

YCAB on a Saturday..........the look on an ATC's face is = :eek:

J:ok:

[Awol57]

YCAB on a Saturday..........the look on an ATC's face is =

Nah not really. We only worry about our area of responsibility :P

I have flown at YCUN (CTAF) with 4x C152, 1x Glider, 1x Austere tug, 1x BE58 doing an instrument approach and circuit and 2x PC9 doing a circuit. That was fun (ahem) but it wouldn't make me cringe if I had my ATC hat on.

If people are sick, people are sick. It can't be helped. The reason we lower our workload is that our oppurtunity for a break decreases so we don't want to over do it when it could be a couple of hours before we get a break.

Nothing about the controller's ability, simply a risk management exercise.

[Big_Binocs]

Just to clarify a common misconception. I'm sorry if it appears rather long-winded but to fully understand the difficulties imposed on YSBK ATC by the new CASA Directives you must appreciate how the tower operates. I can't speak for the other GAAP towers.

AIP is poorly worded and for years we (ATC) have been trying to get CASA to amend it. There are TWO references to Restricted VFR in the GAAP section.

The first, which everyone automatically points to is:

24. PROVISION OF SEPARATION

24.2 To aid in the provision of separation, ATC will determine the status
of operations in the GAAP CTR as follows:

a. Unrestricted VFR Operations
There are no weather related restrictions to aircraft operations.
IFR aircraft must operate to the VFR within the GAAP CTR.

b. Restricted VFR Operations
ATC may apply weather-related restrictions to VFR operations
to facilitate the movement and separation of IFR aircraft. ATC
will then broadcast on the ATIS, “RESTRICTED VFR OPERATIONS”.
The actual restriction imposed may be specified individually
to aircraft, although general restrictions may be notified
on the ATIS; eg, “START APPROVAL REQUIRED”.

And the second which is often overlooked by pilots as it is about ATC:

25.2 ATC Responsibilities

25.2.2 ATC may restrict VFR operations:
a. to reduce congestion in the traffic circuit, and maintain an orderly
flow of traffic; and
b. to facilitate the movement and separation of IFR aircraft.

Of course 25.2.2 doesn't go on to say that ATC will put Restricted VFR Operations on the ATIS but it should be somewhat obvious, what else would you put on the ATIS when you are restricting VFR operations?

These two entries fall under different, but not necessarily mutually exclusive, conditions. The first deals with the type of separation provided under certain conditions and the second with ATC responsibilities. We can be RVFR on a CAVOK day to satisfy 25.2.2. due to short staffing, runway closures, frequency failures and so on.

How does that relate to Bankstown?

Generally there are three controllers per morning and afternoon periods. There are four control, positions in the Tower: Aerodrome controller 1 (ADC1) for arrivals and departures; Aerodrome controller 2 (ADC2) for the training circuit,; the coordinator (COORD); and the ground controller (SMC). COORD & SMC are done by one ATC.

Pre CASA Directives it was well within the capacity of a single ATC to run ADC1 & ADC2 combined with up to 4 aircraft in the training circuit as well as arrivals and departures. This is important as it allowed another ATC to take a short break to refresh, to answer natures call or to eat etc. We are not machines that can work 8 hours straight and still maintain the same level of alertness demanded by the job.

Now enter the CASA CAP: six aircraft under the control of one ATC with a runway on a discrete frequency. Three staff and ADC1 & ADC2 separate, not a problem. ADC1 and ADC2 are mostly separate all day now, even if it means having only one or two aircraft in the training circuit because GAAP is too unpredictable and six is a ridiculously small number to apply at a GAAP aerodrome. It's so easy to have six or seven aircraft call inbound close together or have a string of departures waiting to go. With the two ADCs split then at least the ADC2 can take some of the overflow from 2RN for the ADC1 if there is space in the training circuit.

But when someone needs a break, which are mandated and necessary, or we're short staffed we run into problems. Someone is going to be delayed and generally it will be the training circuit so we can concentrate on arrivals and departures.

Unfortunately we aren't allowed to cut an ATC in two nor are we able to get a freeze-dried one out of the storeroom and add some water. :E

So if you only have two controllers, one does COORD/SMC as normal and one does ADC1/ADC2 combined, apply the CASA CAP and even having one in the training circuit only allows 5 arriving and departing aircraft plus a discretionary departure.

Anyone regularly flying out of Bankstown knows that it is easy to have three times that either wanting in or out at the same time. Allow three or four in the circuit and you severely limit your capacity to accommodate arrivals and departures.

Believe it or not but we don't like holding people outside the CTR or delaying operations anymore than you like being delayed. It goes against our natural desire to do our job to the best of our ability and move the traffic. However we have our hands tied by this CASA CAP. Limiting the ADC1 to six aircraft is reducing his capacity by at least 60%. Having to monitor and control the cap increases the workload at times by 200% easily.

As for the staffing issue, you'd need to talk to someone a couple of paygrades higher up than me for why we don't have enough controllers.

I can tell you this, we have been short-staffed here for a long period, over 24 months. We consistently run overtime to cover shortfalls in the roster, as well as cover sickness, on average at least one per person a fortnight. We have more movements now and do the job with 11 staff than was done by 24 staff only 10 years ago. Our roster is way past lean, it is down to the bones!

Because of Camden we have less staff rostered off on weekends, we only get one weekend off per six week roster and it could be up to ten weeks between weekends off depending where they fall from roster to roster. Work/life balance is difficult to achieve, more so if you have a family.

So when people are ill on the weekend those lucky sods rostered off are extremely loathe to give up their weekend and come to work. We are a tired old bunch let me tell you. On top of that we have management breathing down our neck haranguing us for daring to be sick, so people end up coming to work when they should be at home and before you know it the lurgy knocks over two or three controllers and hey presto RVFR and delays all round.

Now I'm not saying these things to garner sympathy or pity for the poor controller, there are certainly plenty of people worse off than me, but so you can understand why it is that you and we are in the position we're in where you only have one in the circuit and mega delays. I can honestly say that if not for the CASA directives and their cap you would still be none the wiser about our staffing issues and it would be business pretty much as usual for you and me.

I'm sorry if I digressed or bored you with minutae but i do tend to get carried away sometimes and I've rather forgotten where this thread started going. :O

So to wind up my rather wordy rant:
1. RVFR is for weather AND/OR ATC traffic management purposes;
2. CASA's directives and CAP is mainly responsible for the delays that weren't there prior by limiting controller capacity, with a little ASA staffing issues contributing;
3. Don't shoot the messenger! We're trying our best.

Please. Arrange a visit to the tower and see for yourself how it all works. Come talk to us and get firsthand experience of what goes on day to day. Visitors are welcome most of the time.

Disclaimer: These are of course only my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer or my colleagues.:)

[Stikybeke]

Hey Ultralight.....

Re your Dick Smith response.....

"he's still holding at Prospect behind 3 liberties"

That's alot of Liberties to be in the air at YSBK at the one time....has a new school opened up?

[Ultralights]

its funny with all the talk and rumours about SFTC, the liberties are still flying regularly. though not in the same numbers as before.

seeing as it takes so long now to get back into YSBK, the 3 liberties left at 1 hr intervals, just that they have been holding so long all are now orbiting PSP awaiting their return. :}

as for the problems with one ATC staffer on duty at YSBK, i dont believe its the fact that one is sick increasing the workload, it does immensely, but with 1 on duty, the most aircraft in the air can be 6. the problem is that when its quiet at YSBK, there is still 6 or more aircraft in the air. the problem is on perfect cavok weekends at YSBK, 6 aircraft are arriving and departing every 5 mins! with the 6 limit, its like having a 4 lane freeway feeding into one lane! there is only 1 outcome, massive congestion on the radio and at holding points.

[Stikybeke]

Or is it just the one liberty flying three times a much? Maybe David Copperfield (the master of illusion...) has jumped on board after all (lol).:ooh:

As for the traffic congestion....that's exactly what's going on atm...very well put!:ok:

[SuperStinker]

Hey Ultra exactly which day was this when there was such chaos at BK