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ORAC
22nd Aug 2009, 07:29
No, no, not us - the Americans.

It sounds very familiar though. :ouch:

U.S. Air, Naval Forces to Get More 'Expeditionary' Work (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4245844&c=AME&s=TOP)

A U.S. Army helicopter shortage and the positioning of expeditionary forces are two issues Pentagon officials are hotly debating as part of the 2010 Quadrennial Defense Review, according to sources and documents.....

HELO SHORTAGE

The QDR analysts are looking at "a shortage of rotary-wing capacity," according to "Guidance for Development of the Force," a Pentagon document issued in April that helped shape the quadrennial study.

Defense officials have alluded to such a shortfall in recent weeks, but have stopped short of disclosing options under consideration to address it.

For instance, David Ochmanek, the deputy assistant secretary of defense for force transformation and resources, told reporters July 28 that Defense Secretary Robert Gates is "very aware of persistent shortfalls that have existed in the ability to support forces in disbursed operations in Iraq and Afghanistan." He then ticked off a list: "rotary-wing, lift, civil affairs, persistent ISR, and the exploitation and dissemination that goes with that, [and] intratheater lift."

Ochmanek said getting those things to Iraq and Afghanistan will likely mean more than simply buying new ones and rushing them to war. "Some of these things aren't about technology so much as better management of the force, or a rebalancing of the force so that the things we can access readily are readily accessible," he said. "Whether we move things from the reserve component into the active, or change the rules and procedures under which we access things in the reserve component."

The former appears to be a leading option the Army is leaning toward to fill its part of the military's active component helicopter shortfall. The Pentagon planning document says within the Army, the rotary-wing QDR debate "is focused on converting a reserve component aviation brigade to the active component."

The Army's strategy, plans and policy directorate has directed the service's aviation director to study "all options to generate greater capacity," the document said. Thompson said the rotary-wing deficit "seems to be concentrated in heavy lift, such as the Sikorsky CH-53s," flown by the Marines. Other aviation analysts added the Army's Boeing-made CH-47 to that list.

Moving military gear and personnel by air is more important in an austere environment like Afghanistan.

Thompson said the U.S. military cannot simply devote more fixed-wing cargo planes to that region because Afghanistan lacks an ample number of suitable landing strips. "So in some places like mountain outposts, troops and supplies need to be moved mainly be helicopters," Thompson said. "The combination of speed and vertical agility afforded by helicopters is well-suited to the kind of operating environment Afghanistan presents. The V-22 Osprey tiltrotor, made by Boeing and Bell Helicopter for the Air Force and Marine Corps, could be ideal, given the fact that it has greater reach than conventional rotorcraft."

Others say the military has plenty of rotary-wing aircraft. So how to explain the shortfall? A Pentagon source said that one reason is the military has more chopper pilots than available helos. "The availability ratios for combat aircraft are much more acceptable," the source said.

Eaglen said another reason is that only one of every six U.S. military choppers are deployed; Pentagon planners prefer a 1:3 ratio, but many of the U.S.-based helicopters are assigned to reserve units, which deploy less often. For that reason, she said it is likely DoD will continue seeking to convert reserve aviation brigades to the active force, as the planning document suggests.

Action is needed, and soon. That's because, as Gates signaled with his 2010 Pentagon budget request, in which he added funds to helicopter-related coffers, Eaglen said: "The Pentagon has made it clear that it sees no end in sight for the heavy-lift requirement."

Modern Elmo
24th Aug 2009, 02:47
What's the osprey doing now ?

"... almost 60,000 hours on the V-22 since we returned to flight in 2003. ...."

How many hours has any Fairey Rotodyne put on its clock, outside your nostalgic dreams of yesteryear aviation glory?

... According to a current V-22 pilot (seems from AFSOC) the critics are full of it:

“…and lacks the maneuverability to evade hostile ground fire.”

Compared to what? A helicopter? A C-130? A fighter? It is none of these…so how can one say it lacks sufficient maneuverability? Ignorance and drinking too much kool-aid…that’s how.

I have been flying on this aircraft for 5+ years. Before that, I spent 8 years on the MH-53 Pavelow. The CV-22, like the MH-53 is designed (IR and RF countermeasures) to go into anything up a medium threat environment. Very few aircraft go into a high threat environment. Those that do, do it with a gorilla package of support (SEAD, CAP, ect). Further, to my knowledge NO tactical transport aircraft today or ever, go into, intended or otherwise, a high threat environment without lots of support and even then, the threat is usually degraded beforehand.

You take my word for what it is worth…

The V-22 or at least the CV-22 is perfectly capable of operating in a medium threat environment. The combination of defensive countermeasures, speed, altitude, noise signature, IR signature and yes, maneuverability makes the aircraft very capable in a combat zone.

Most of these hacks are just repeating what some anti-V-22 lobbiest said to them or some biased report contains. The bottom line here is that this just another effort to cancel the V-22. NEWS FLASH…it won’t happen.

The USMC has retired over half of its H-46’s and is fully invested in the transition to the V-22. USSOCOM is fully behind this aircraft and what it will…is bringing the SOF war fighter. Additionally, there is WAY too much support from members of congress, on both sides of the aisle, to keep this program going.

I will agree, however, reliability leaves a lot to be desired. However, I have seen marked improvement over the last 12 months. The issue we are dealing with has to do with parts…not the capability or safety of the aircraft. The biggest issue has been parts that aren’t supposed to break, breaking. Parts that are supposed to have a 500 hour life breaking at 250 hours and all of this with a VERY immature supply system. The positive side of things here is that he engineers have been very responsive and effective at improving their parts. The aircraft is very capable…at least from my USAF/SOF perspective. I will concede however, that if reliability continues to be a problem in the long term, eventually capability will be impacted.

We have put almost 60,000 hours on the V-22 since we returned to flight in 2003. To date the V-22 has been on only 4 combat deployments over the last 20 months. Simply put, we are only in the 1st quarter (American football metaphor - Elmo) …there is long way to go. ...

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/cat_grand_ole_osprey.htm

Pontius Navigator
24th Aug 2009, 06:27
Modern Elmo, interesting that you should mention the Rotordyne. Equally that it had taken you 40 years to catch up.

Like the Harrier, you are still testing your effort 45 years on.

It is possible that the Rotordyne concept was better than the Osprey just at the time we didn't have the resources to continue to develop it.

Yeoman_dai
24th Aug 2009, 10:27
Surely that is to our shame and the americans credit that they have persisted where we failed through lack of political support?

Modern Elmo
25th Aug 2009, 01:42
Fairey "Rotodyne"
1957

...

In the House of Commons on 16 July 1959 the then Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation said of the Rotodyne: 'The view of B.E.A. and my view is that it is a winner'; yet less than three years later this highly advanced aeroplane was abandoned because these same two authorities lacked the faith to give it continued support. This was a bad enough decision even then; less than six years later, the current British government's 'saving' of L10 million, by cancelling the Chinooks it had ordered only weeks before, reveals it to have been even more foolhardy. The same amount of money, spent on completing the Rotodyne's development in 1962, would have provided the R.A.F. much sooner with a vehicle having far better carrying power, performance and operating costs than the Chinook.

...

But the major potential customers were B.E.A. and New York Airways, which declared their intent to order six and five respect-lively, each with an option to increase its fleet later to twenty. The Rotodyne Z had been designed with an eye also on military orders, with a fuselage cross-section capable of admitting standard British Army vehicles - a feature which, incidentally, would have made it equally useful as a commercial car ferry. Late in 1960 Westland were invited to quote for building six Rotodynes for B.E.A. and twelve troop/vehicle transports for the R.A.F.; but when both airline and government declined either to order the aircraft or to contribute further towards its development Westland finally abandoned the project in February 1962 and the Rotodyne Z was never completed. Although lack of faith in the aircraft was the main cause of its demise, a contributory factor was the disproportionate publicity given to the noise made by the Rotodyne's tip-jets, which it was said would inhibit its use in city centres. In fact, well before the aircraft was abandoned this noise had been successfully decreased to less than that made by a London Underground train, which millions of people accept every day; and there was every indication that it would have been reduced even further.

K.Munson "Helicopters And Other Rotorcraft Since 1907", 1968

Fairey "Rotodyne" helicopter - development history, photos, technical data (http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/fairey_rotodyne.php)

Dave Gibbings
10th Sep 2009, 08:05
I find thisdialogue of Rotodyne vs V-22 a little frustrating.

The V-22 is with us and indeed has evolved into a very fine aircraft.
The achievement should be applauded.

If you read through the reasons for cancelling the Rotodyne, it is difficult not to agree that it might have been the safest commercial solution; 'Fortune favours the brave'.
Westland were left with the prospect of continueing with the project as a 'Private Venture'.

Westland owed its dominent position in the UK at the time, to the fact that they had concentrated on building and selling helicopters, rather than the more risky process of developing new models (A separate debate).
The Westland resources were already stretched to fulfil their commitment for Wessex, Scout and Wasp. Further to this they had already abandoned their Westminster project in favour of Rotodyne, which considering the circumstances, they persued with commendable energy.
I do not think Westland can be criticised for taking the 'Safe' approach.
I wonder what Bell/Boeing would have done under the same circumstances 10 years ago.

What is unforgivable is the way that the Rotodyne prototype was destroyed, and the hard earned data dispersed beyond reclaim.
In retrospect, you can argue that a funded research programme would have been appropriate.

I personally believe that the Rotodyne concept is worth re-visiting, but I doubt that the current devotion to 'Project Management' would make it any easier than it was for the V-22.

As far as the Rotodyne is concerned; I was there. Twas a Golden Age!

Sgt.Slabber
10th Sep 2009, 10:28
Give Mr. Wu a call.

See photo #9 here:

In flight - The Big Picture - Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/08/in_flight.html)


Farmer Wu Zhongyuan, 22, sits in his self-made helicopter in Jiuxian county, Henan province, China on August 1, 2009. The local government later halted Wu's plan to fly the helicopter out of safety concerns. The aircraft, powered by a 150cc engine, took Wu two months to build and cost more than 10,000 yuan ($1,460), China Daily reported.


Tried posting the photo but I don't have one of those photo account thingies...

...but Airborne Artist has done the honours, below.

Thanks, Airborne :ok:

airborne_artist
10th Sep 2009, 10:31
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01455/helicopter_1455223i.jpg

Worldmaker
10th Sep 2009, 10:48
I personally believe that the Rotodyne concept is worth re-visiting, but I doubt that the current devotion to 'Project Management' would make it any easier than it was for the V-22.

As far as the Rotodyne is concerned; I was there. Twas a Golden Age!

It's doable, but the financial constraints would need political override, or something more imaginative.
I've approached a few sponsors, but no luck to-date.
And I've registered on here to lay the groundwork for further effort.

Join me if you're interested. :)