RAF Chinook airframe destroyed - Helmand Province

[MrBernoulli]

BBC TV news have just announced (10:35 UK time) that an RAF Chinook made an emergency landing in Helmand province last night (19/29 Aug 2009) due to a (possible?) engine fire. Crew and pax recovered by another helicopter and the Chinook was then destroyed by coalition airstrikes.

Great that there appears to be no associated injuries, but what a shame we have lost such a valuable lifting asset, when the lack of rotary airframes in theatre seems to be so critical! :(

Edit: Story now up on BBC News site:
BBC NEWS | UK | Crew unhurt in Chinook emergency (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8211552.stm)

[Rotary Girl]

The BBC quote:

The Ministry of Defence said that in the short term other UK aircraft in the region, and those operated by Nato partners, would be able to cover the "helicopter lift requirement".
"In the medium term, the UK's joint helicopter command is already planning the replacement of this airframe," it said.

Thats all right then - we have spare heavy lift kicking around apparently:ugh:

Glad to hear all on board were recovered safely.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Good news that the crew are ok but a shame to lose such a valuable asset.

"In the medium term, the UK's joint helicopter command is already planning the replacement of this airframe," it said.

Replacement as in buy another to replace or replacement as in send another one from the already small pool from the UK to Afghanistan? I've a feeling its the latter.:{

[MostlyHarmless]

Sad when the loss of one frame is going to have such a dramatic impact on our ops :suspect:

[JAR FCL]

Fantastic news about the crew. Lets hope it isnt Bravo November.

[Thaihawk]

This airframe will NEVER be replaced under Labour.

Remember the 5 J model Hercules the MOD were' urgently' procuring earlier this year.As far as I am aware,this idea has sunk without trace.

Brown considers all money spent on defence a waste which could be given to Africa as aid.

[Gainesy]

A carefully worded thread title Mr Bernoulli.:ok:

[Teetering]

Rotary Girl - the mighty Chinook is still not heavy lift - only medium. We dont have any rotary heavy lift assets. Brilliant to hear no injuries.

[MrBernoulli]

Gainsey,

Not entirely sure what you mean there - all I was trying to convey in the title was some accuracy. Some threads here have misleading or meaningless titles.:)

[The Helpful Stacker]

I think he was praising you MrB.

Often thread titles can be a little blunt ('Chinook destroyed' for instance) and give the appearance that their may be fatalities involved.

[Rotary Girl]

Teetering
the mighty Chinook is still not heavy lift - only medium
Why then was the Chinook Mk3 IPT known (in the days of DPA) as FHL - Future Heavy Lift?
Is your definition of 'Heavy' greater than 24.5?

[Gainesy]

Mr B,
As Stacker infers, I meant exactly what I said, you carefully selected words so as not to alarm folk. Hence the :ok:

[Teetering]

Can't quite remember the figures - but it was an ex Odiham Stn Cdr that picked me up on the same point a couple of years ago. Perhaps the definitions have changed so we now magically now have heavy lift helicopters - would not surprise me.

[Roadster280]

It's been a while, but when I was stood under the things hooking, the following were classed as Medium Support Helicopter:

Wessex - Presumably supplanted by Merlin 3
SK(4)
Puma
Chinook

Only the CH-53 was classed as Heavy.

[cornish-stormrider]

What about the skycrane? Is that very b4st4rd heavy lift??

Still glad all made it out ok. Metal and rubber - we can buy another (but only after the nostril miner is gone)

[taxydual]

Daily Telegraph report 'military sources' confirming 'shot down'.

RAF Chinook helicopter shot down in Afghanistan in Taliban election 'spectacular' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/6061376/RAF-Chinook-helicopter-shot-down-in-Afghanistan-in-Taliban-election-spectacular.html)

[knocker88]

I hope the Crew are fine - I bet it was brown trousers time!
Anyway - I'm sure our NATO friends will now step up and send more helicopters out? Failing that, MOD will be buying some more Chinooks with the help from Darling and Ainsworth!!

Good job the cupboard isn't empty at ODI!!! Oh wait.......

[rolandpull]

Just a question. Why is the RAF webmaster so slow in putting up info on this subject following official release by the MoD press 'guru'? This news is in the public domain after all.

[The Helpful Stacker]

It's been a while, but when I was stood under the things hooking, the following were classed as Medium Support Helicopter:

Wessex - Presumably supplanted by Merlin 3
SK(4)
Puma
Chinook

Only the CH-53 was classed as Heavy.

Indeed, I was taught the same many, many years ago when I was a sprog beginning my journey with those fine men with big hoses on TSW.

[knocker88]

Webmaster was slow because it wasn't a Typhoon story

[Weezer]

I remember the Chinook being classed Medium Lift too and then it all changed towards the beginning of the millenium. This is taken from Aviation Week:

In a 2004 report, the Congressional Research Service (CRS) broke down the weight for medium-lift helicopters as those weighing 12,000 - 45,000 pounds, and classified heavy-lift helicopters as those that weigh more. CRS specifically cites the Chinook as a heavy-lift helicopter. Boeing reports early model Chinooks weighing nearly 25,000 pounds empty and 50,000 pounds at maximum gross weight – the highest in the Army inventory.

[spindrier]

Typical jurno inaccuracy -

Did anyone else spot that the Chinooks in the Daily Telegraph picture were American and not British as stated? How do their editors put up with such continually poor basic knowledge from their supposed mil expert correspondants!

Rant over!

[Dan Gerous]

It's been a while, but when I was stood under the things hooking, the following were classed as Medium Support Helicopter:

Wessex - Presumably supplanted by Merlin 3
SK(4)
Puma
Chinook

Only the CH-53 was classed as Heavy.


I can recall a poster on the crew room wall at Lossie circa 84/85 informing us that the heavies were coming. It featured images of Sea Kings and Chinooks.

[barnstormer1968]

I got home tonight, to be told by my son that a Chinook had been shot down. I am ultra relieved that the crew are OK (well as far as I have heard anyway). If this was enemy fire of any kind, then PLEASE PLEASE can someone in MOD, or some very senior officer(s) press our excuse for a government for not only a replacement of this airframe (and ideally more), but also more Apaches (and spares) so that in future enemy fire can either be prevented, or returned very quickly and accurately!

Sorry if that was a rant (plus teaching almost all of us to suck eggs), but I do despair at the attitude shown to UK forces (by our elected leaders, and not by our general public (me included) or by our U.S. partners).

Once again, glad it ended as well as it could.

[Vox Populi]

Did anyone else spot that the Chinooks in the Daily Telegraph picture were American and not British as stated? How do their editors put up with such continually poor basic knowledge from their supposed mil expert correspondants!

No, I didn't notice, and for the record it's correspondents

[NutLoose]

Typical jurno inaccuracy -

Did anyone else spot that the Chinooks in the Daily Telegraph picture were American and not British as stated? How do their editors put up with such continually poor basic knowledge from their supposed mil expert correspondants!

Rant over!


When they were quoting today that the aircraft picking up that damn Terrorist to fly him back to Libya was A340 it does not suprise me in the slightest.

Just a shame no one turned up to see him off and give him the good news, " we have managed to piece back together your lost Luggage from Lockerbie and have popped it in the rear hold for you....... Have a good flight!"

:mad:

[Al R]

I don't say this with any sense of schadenfreude, but 3 days ago, I listened to an interview with OC JAG. He was saying that Chinooks were ok because they were so rugged and I thought then, that it was a Kevin Keegan (".. with only 2 minutes to play, of course we're safe") moment. I turned to my companion and said 'Great, thats done it, they're going to be loving him.'. I hope he gets pinned down in the Chinook crewroom, his eyebrows shaved off, a Regimental bath severely administered and the beers in - eventually of course!!

Well done to the crew for getting it down, you have my upmost respect and admiration for what you and the aeromed teams are doing. There was also a piece with a Sgt nurse medic who conveyed superbly what the job is all about - gritting your teeth, getting your head down, banging out the workload.. and in such a professional manner. If anything has put the teamwork element of things firmly into perspective and just how vital and punchy the more 'mundane' side of RAF flying ops really is, its what you lot are doing. I wonder if the numbers who choose helicopter flying through choice are increasing as a result.

FF>> 18'30" mark.

BBC iPlayer - 5 live Drive: 18/08/2009 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00m5q4v/5_live_Drive_18_08_2009/)

[ProfessionalStudent]

Originally posted by Al R

I wonder if the numbers who choose helicopter flying through choice are increasing as a result.

A Chinook driving friend of mine spent a couple of days visiting IOT recently - not to brief them, just to look at the setup. None of them knew him or his background (he deliberately didn't tell them) but despite this he said that amongst those in the pilot branch, aspirations were pretty much 50% Typhoon and 50% Chinook.

[Double Zero]

The chap who mentioned " this airframe will never be replaced under Labour ( government ) is living in a dream; it wouldn't be replaced under the tories either, despite what they may comfortably say right now.

Remember Thatcher trying to sell off HMS Invincible before the Falklands War - for that is what it was, not a ' conflict ', but she made the most of it when we won, which wouldn't have happened if she had her earlier way - and she refused the P1216 supersonic STOVL project, which was way ahead of its' time, made the F-35B look like a JCB.

Now we have to rely on the Americans for employment on parts, and their joining us if a real shooting war breaks out - 6 Type 45 Daring class anti-air destroyers - how brainless is that ?!

Thanks to UK politicians of all flavours, we lack the decent kit 'our' people need while actually at war - comfy chairs & plasma screens in Whitehall, crap equipment for the guys on the front line; if they're so confident the kit is up to the job, why don't they swap places for a few days ?

[zic]

Did anyone else spot that the Chinooks in the Daily Telegraph picture were American and not British as stated? How do their editors put up with such continually poor basic knowledge from their supposed mil expert correspondants!

Actually Vox and Spindrier, the Chinooks in question were a CH-47F from the US and an Australian CH-47D. Cheers easy :cool:

[Akrotiri bad boy]

Well said Double Zero!

Remember the axe that swung in the early '90's, "Options for change"? That was a Tory brainwave, and that's what did for my RAF career. Politicians of all colours feed from the same trough......... self indulgence.

[Tappers Dad]

I am surprised there is very little discussion on this thread. If the Chinook came down due to an engine fire was this a fuel leak or a technical problem that could happen again? Well we won't know because it was destroyed.
Or if bought down by enemy fire this is a new tactic and with more helicopters going into to theatre has the potential to have a devestating effect had this have happened with 40 fully-laden troops on board.

But of course the Chinook was destroyed so we may never know if it was enemy fire and if so what was used to bring it down. And it was noticable that there was very little media coverage of this event, what ever the reason it came down.

[Al R]

TD,

Nope, we won't know because its a war zone of course. I watched the Battle of Britain on More4 last night ("Don't you shout at me Mister Warwick!!") and I didn't see servicemen's lives being risked to recover Spitfires and Hurricances from The Channel.

With the very greatest of respect, I'm not sure that shooting down aeroplanes belonging to the other side can be described as 'a new tactic'.

[c130jbloke]

technical problem that could happen again?

With ?? thousand airframes flying around the world today, if it was a tech flaw I think it would have come to light before this.

And I also reckon that the crew telling everybody that they were shot down might be a bit of a giveaway too...:8

[colonel cluster]

TD, without claiming to understand your situation, we must all be wary of looking for complex airworthiness issues in ever incident that occurs. Aircraft of all types are complex beasts, and incidents do occur, never mind enemy action. The difference between a single incident, and a significant trend is important, but we be careful not to react hastily.

The reason the coverage has been light might be something due to the media blackout during the election, and that fact that thankfully it was only the aircraft that was lost. I am sure the guys and girls both in theatre and back here will be analysing the incident in detail, working out responses. That is something we definately don't want to see in open forums!

El Colonel!

[Utrinque Apparatus]

I understand that a double figure number of bearded aviation memorabilia collectors were evaporated with the airframe :ok:

[Al R]

Thats just.. awful. :{

[Dengue_Dude]

If we're really lucky, this airframe will be part of the £6.5 billion the auditors couldn't find.

Well done all involved, glad everyone's safe - mind you, getting the hell out of there as fast as possible is a bit of a no-brainer - it's not like you've got many other choices is it?

What a good result from a ****ty position . . .

[Double Zero]

If shot down, this Chinook would hardly be the first; one full of U.S. Special Forces guys, on a mission to recover the survivor of an ambushed S.F. team, took an RPG straight into the open tail door, killing all on board.

The sole survivor of the team they went out to rescue was picked up by National Guard reservists in a very hairy operation, repeated by another flight by them the next day to bring his comrades' bodies back, again in a very hostile situation.

As in the plain daft thinking behind the Tornado & JP233, no-one yet seems to have come up with a defence against simple artillery - " Shields up, Spock ! "

[Load Toad]

You lot spot the faults, inaccuracies, lies, mistakes general shoddiness in the newspaper reports about the military. But this lax standard of reporting goes across the board. And people actually believe what they read. This is not good.

[NutLoose]

Dengue_DudeIf we're really lucky, this airframe will be part of the £6.5 billion the auditors couldn't find.

Well done all involved, glad everyone's safe - mind you, getting the hell out of there as fast as possible is a bit of a no-brainer - it's not like you've got many other choices is it?

What a good result from a ****ty position . . .

Well if history is anything to go by, all those little things missing off inventory would have been on board her when it was destroyed, so much so it was a wonder she got off the ground in the first place ;)

There goes the no claims discount ;) seriously though,

Glad everyone was ok, shame about the cab, but my butthole will heal over before the Labour Government puts in an order for a replacement cab.....

[[email protected]]

I gather that the Telegraph has been undergoing something of a sea change of staff this year starting with one senior appointment from a red-top who has subsequently replaced quality journos with more scum from the gutter-press. Maybe we will see more uninformed speculation from what was previously a quality paper.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Aye, Crab - Private Eye has been thoroughly enjoying itself over the Mailygraph's reinvention of itself for the past many months. See the Princess Royal thread for something similar. If I want defence info that can be corroborated these days I go to the Guardian. Or in our part of the country, the Western "Cull Those Badgers" Morning News.

[Minorite invisible]

With the number of times I saw that salvageable and recoverable airframes were blown up so they would not fall in Taliban hands", I wonder how much real estate they really completely control in the country. Is there no way the area could have been secured long enough while technicians repaired the thing or hired a MI-26 to sling it back to base ?

Are we reduced to hit and run tactics in Afghanistan ?

Its not as though the Taliban could have repaired the thing themselves and flown it to their own base. Was blowing it up really necessary? The RAF Hercules that made a night hard landing in Aug 2007 was also blown up, although it was located on an airstrip. The military did not think they controlled the area enough to attempt recovery or salvage. The Taliban did.

[pigsinspace]

As an ex tech I am sure they would not like to do an engine change or major repair within range of a Taliban sniper, But if securing the area then lifting the frame out was a viable option why was it not looked at?

As you say the Taliban were not going to repair it and fly off to their secret airfield, and I doubt very much that there were military secrets on a Chinook.

[NURSE]

anyone know which airrame was destroyed I am hoping its not BN!

[minigundiplomat]

But if securing the area then lifting the frame out was a viable option why was it not looked at?



Rough guess at about +45 deg C and about 4-5000'. Never going to happen due to performance.

[Torque Tonight]

It was not BN.

But if securing the area then lifting the frame out was a viable option why was it not looked at?

Err, if it was viable it would have been looked at, so obviously it wasn't viable. Apart from what MGD rightly said would you want to do some extreme underslung load work in bandit country where where there had just been a contact.Would probably have ended up losing a second aircraft that way.

I doubt very much that there were military secrets on a Chinook.
Trust me, there's plenty of stuff you wouldn't want to fall into the wrong hands.

That said I always find it shocking when something like this happens. It's not a decision I could easily make especially with such a valuable piece of kit. Very unfortunate to lose the frame but fantastic that the crew are OK.

[Gainesy]

Trust me, there's plenty of stuff you wouldn't want to fall into the wrong hands.


Yes, the thought of taleban fitting miniguns to pick-up trucks springs to mind.

[Double Zero]

Even I, ex-involved with military aircraft kit, can think of much more sophisticated equipment than Miniguns, as I'm sure you can, ' wind-up Gainesy ' !

[The Helpful Stacker]

Aye, think of the damage the Taliban could do with a standard RAF-issue aircraft chock pasty. Thats if the aircrew managed to avoid succumbing to having to eat them.

[Modern Elmo]

Is there no way the area could have been secured long enough while technicians repaired the thing or hired a MI-26 to sling it back to base ?

Not this one:

From Wikinews, the free news source you can write!



Monday, July 20, 2009



A civilian helicopter chartered by NATO (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/NATO) has crashed while taking off from Kandahar International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_International_Airport) in Afghanistan (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Afghanistan), killing sixteen. The Mil Mi-8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-8) did not come under enemy fire.

The helicopter had been chartered from the Russian (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Russia) company Vertical-T and all the victims were civilians. A NATO statement said that there was no obvious cause for the accident but hostile fire had been ruled out.

Emergency responders are on the scene.

Five other people were wounded in the accident.

...

The crash comes just days after another civilian helicopter chartered for military activities crashed near Sangin Airbase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangin) in Helmand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmand). The Mil Mi-26 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-26) is believed to have been shot down; six Ukrainian (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Ukraine) civilians onboard and one Afghan girl on the ground were killed in the crash on Tuesday. The helicopter had been taking supplies to a British (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) military base. ...

Helicopter crash kills sixteen at NATO base in Afghanistan - Wikinews, the free news source (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Helicopter_crash_kills_sixteen_at_NATO_base_in_Afghanistan?c urid=129520)

[Roger Sofarover]

Ok
I am really confused now!!!!
This is on SkyNews as breaking news?? Right now. 1700hrs 30 Aug

[EESDL]

...that the RAF have not lost more airframes or suffered more casualties in the 'stans.
Crazy flying that they're doing on a regular basis - before not too long such 'ops' will be regarded as 'the norm' - can only hope that crews' attitudes and planners' logic stay sharp in such an environment.

For many years the RAF thought 'Ops' meant Tacevals and missing a weekend at home - war in 'stans have seen a huge change in commitment with a reduced workforce and equipment operating at Mil Spec and beyond.......
Good luck all involved

[BoeingMEL]

..happened this morning (August 30th) (See BBC/Reuters). No casualties reported thankfully..but another 'nook lost will hit ops hard. (Son on det) Cheers bm