What is it about the C180/185

[ZEEBEE]

Looking at some of the PNG threads, the C180/185 keeps popping up and after looking at the photos I'm of the opinion that the series was the best looking Cessnas made.

Probably IMHO the best looking aircraft series ever.

The aircraft has a presence that few others seem to have

Do others agree, disagree and why.



http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac1/austcl/VH-FIE1.jpg

[Propstop]

Zeebee
It was a joy to fly, but at the same time there was always reminders that if you let your concentration lapse, or start to take it for granted it would bite hard. It was both a lion and pussycat.
Flown with skill it would take good loads in and out of marginal strips.

[185skywagon]

ZeeBee,
Big heaps of horses in a light airframe.
185.

[ZEEBEE]

Yep, thanks for the inputs.

Having flown both, I fully agree with the sentiments, they fly like a big Cessna single, but there's always the anticipation of the interesting times ahead when you've gotta land them.
I got reasonably OK at parking them but there was still the odd landing that had the fire-tenders on their way out.

However, I was more interested in why they look so good.
I mean, they're the same fuselage as the 182 (early series) but somehow they look light years ahead of any of the Cessna singles.
Even the lovely little 170B never quite had the charisma.

[185skywagon]

ZeeBee,
I just think the proportions are right. They look even better in the air.
http://www.skywagon.info/webshots/cwhlakedunn.JPG
I am biased of course.
180 at YBCV the other day.
http://www.skywagon.info/webshots/wcvweb.JPG

Probably best to put these up on the More photos site.

[chimbu warrior]

Why do we love them?

Because they reward careful handling with superior performance. Plus they put d!ckheads in their place fairly smartly. :rolleyes:

[185skywagon]

Because they reward careful handling with superior performance.
Well put :D:D
Couldn't have said it any better.

[Jabawocky]

Because they reward careful handling with superior performance. Plus they put d!ckheads in their place fairly smartly. :rolleyes:Chimbu......you ready to test that theory?.........I may regret this :uhoh:

Ohhhh and courtesy of our resident 185 guru! crank up the volume and enjoy!! :)
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gjYumfDdOuE&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gjYumfDdOuE&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Chimbu chuckles]

They are hard enough to fly that when 'mastered' there is a VERY real (and temporary) sense of accomplishment but they don't present impossible hurdles - They reward a skilled touch with fantastic performance and give the odd love bit when you're having an off day - and they will eat a hamfisted moron alive.

They are an aircraft that demands to be loved or left alone - if you don't love the aircraft unquestioningly then walk away and don't bother further or you will end up hating it/afraid of it.

My first job was flying P2-BAF, a 1963 A that had been converted to an F by MAF in the 70s. She was a bit tatty around the edges, had a barrel DG and ground pointer A/H, 1 VHF and a HF and not a lot more. When I saw her the first time at Chimbu the hair stood up on the back of my neck - what a purposeful stance - when I flew her the first time I was love struck - even though my first landing could best be described as mediocre. When I walked away from her that first time and looked back it was almost as if she was smiling at me and thinking to herself "I will teach you to fly and then we will have LOTS of fun adventures together".

And she did - but every once in a while she would give a firm, if playful, slap when she thought I wasn't paying close enough attention :ok:

[Leatherdog]

After near 20 years spending time at airports, it has only recently that I have 're-discovered the beauty of the tail dragger. Of all the cessna's the 180/185 have been the more commonly familar around Oz, but I have to say that the 195/196 is the best of the dragers, the Radial engine just top's it off.

Tried to post a picture, but I've yet to master the skill.

Sorry.:sad:

[Stationair8]

Have owned a very nice Cessna 180 Sportsman complete with wheel spats, unfortunately it was a 1/48th scale Monogram model.

Man's aeroplane, had a few rides in the C180/185 over the years and a few flies from the right hand seat.

Zeebee that photo is great photo with lot's of history

[Jabawocky]

but I have to say that the 195/196 is the best of the dragers, the Radial engine just top's it off.


Now you really will get Chuckles all fired up......... watch this space!:ok:

[Stationair8]

Better than that Jabawocky somebody e-mailed me a photo of a C195 modified with a PT-6 for parachute dropping in South America.

[Alex 009]

I can't get enough of the 185. If you fly it well, then it is an absolute joy. One of my all time favorites!

[frothy]

The 180/185 have got the small wheel on the right end:)
My first was DFO from memory at Cudal endorsed by one Nigel Johnson followed by 25 years of various 180/185's luvin' every minute but at times pinchin' the buttons off the seat. Wouldn't change a thing:ok:

Frothy

[MyNameIsIs]

My dad got quite excited when he saw that first photo as it brought back memories of his SPL training days. Who else knows where this photo was taken?

[Brian Abraham]

ZEEBEE, you got to admit you're not being completely honest here. Remember "Silver City Air Taxis"? The 180 (RFD, RFE, RFF) was the first after Auster KBH. Was there any comparison? You got the needle (inoculation) early in life. ;)

[poteroo]

Would you believe that once-upon-a-time, (back in the 60's), DCA, (the grandparent of CASA), had the endorsements for C180 and C185 grouped with C182? True. And many innocent souls received the chastening of their flying career when they were invited to use their extensive 182 experience on a taildragger.

Happened to me on 6th December,1963, when I fronted up to the then Aero Club of Papua at Jacksons, and did some dual with Maurie(?) Butler. Made the towers' day to see VH-KER, (a C180A), heading off into the grass with regularity. Not surprising, as I had 68 hrs TT, and had yet to really appreciate the wonders of rudder. I came back to complete my 'conversion' with Ross Smith, in the same aircraft, in Feb 1964. My next step was a C185, VH-STP, and that wasn't until I had a CPL and 200 hrs in November,1965.

Now, after many years of pleasurable flying both 180's and 185's, and owning a 180, I realise that they are a real challenge, and I look forward to endorsements as a way to pass on some of the skills needed to fly them safely.

happy days,

[Shredder6]

Was hooked on aviation by the Mount Cook Airlines 185s on skis way back in the seventies when living there (Mt Cook). Was about 2 1/2 years old. First flight ever was in a 185 aged about three, still remember to this day!

Have flown both in my career, early model ones are the best, power to weight ratio better as they are made of lighter aluminium.

They perform well, look cool, sound great and teach pilots what to do with their feet!

Would really like to have one of my own.

We need a few more pics of 180s and 185s on this thread.

[Parrow200]

First pic taken possibly Moorabbin in late 60's. Presumably Flinders Island Airlines B18 VH-FID parked behind. Certainly FIE later became another B18 and I think was the one restored for the Herald paper runs through country Victoria in mid to late 70's.

[tinpis]

By the time I get through all the sign in bull**** these days I almost forget what it was I wanted to post.......
Oh yeah..pretty pretty...

http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac2/NZBA/ZK-BLL%20%28999%29.JPG

And a worker

http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac2/NZBA/ZK-BEH2.jpg

[the wizard of auz]

I first flew the 185 (had the pod and leg extensions) as a new CPL and fell in love with it at the first flight. Had many hours in the 188 Agwagon and love that bucket too. in my opinion, they fly almost identically, and from what I am lead to believe, they share the same wing, so I guess they would feel the same to fly. great load hauler and has good manners.

[tinpis]

Did they get their $250k for this?
Im not even sure it was GKE however the paint was pretty right

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/PNG/VH-GKELarge.jpg

[tinpis]

Corkey spare us the retired airline pilots wank-toys :rolleyes:http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/laughinggr.gif

[witwiw]

Parrow200, spot on with your recognition and Beech 18 comments. Anyone remember the other classic a/c that used to park there?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Corkey - Glad to see Sarge and mine efforts at Alabaster were not wasted -even though it didn't rate a mention in the NZ CPA news letter:(:ok:

Does this mean I have ta post links to those vids again?

P2-AWM was the first aeroplane I ever owned - a 1961 C185.

http://www.fototime.com/{69C16792-E0BE-4AE5-AF34-A538DFFE16B7}/origpict/Copy%20of%20AWM2.jpg

Fella on the left is Tommy Emmanuel who I met at a Jazz festival in Moresby - he asked what I did in PNG - told him - turns out his Dad was a pilot in PNG in WW2 and was shot down (survived wounded) near Kokoda Gap - I suggested he might like to come for a fly along the Kokoda trail - we landed at Manari, Efogi and Kokoda - he met lots of villagers (he couldn't quite comprehend that they were SDA and music was against their religion) and we walked along the trail for an hour or so at each place. To say it blew him away would be a GROSS understatement, we have been friends ever since. fella on the right posts here as Taildragger and, until recently owned a beautiful 1956 C180 that now resides near Wanaka, ZK- TSM.

http://www.fototime.com/{5E56A1F8-EEE1-415B-B1A6-98616C50871F}/origpict/Awm.jpg

ZK-TSM when I was flying it from time to time on LHR layovers - before Taildragger sold it:{

http://www.fototime.com/{A1B67185-3D96-48DE-A21C-6AC2C5B780F6}/origpict/G-BTSM.jpg

I have almost forgiven you Taildragger:suspect:

[Corkey McFuz]

Corkey - Glad to see Sarge and mine efforts at Alabaster were not wasted

Certainly not wasted at all :D


Does this mean I have ta post links to those vids again?


I believe it does :ok:

[Alex 009]

Its great to see all these pictures of the 180/185. Almost got 100 hours on them now and hopefully many more!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Corky it took HOURS with Sarge's busted arse Briggs and Stratton with 4 wheels pointing in 5 directions and a garden variety whipper snipper:ok:

This is what it looked like when WE landed.

eSD912sDQCQ

[Aerozepplin]

I would LOVE to find a job in a 180/185 once my training is done. It has to be the tail wheel that makes it so attractive, coupled with the 225-300 horses and it just looks like it means business.

A shame commercial operational ones seem pretty rare from what I've seen

[multime]

First job flying pax out of remote stations in the Kimberly.
VH-AGF the lizard machine, now retired in leongatha.
Everyone had mcir and twin endo,s with 200 hrs, i had a tailwhel endo and an ag rating. Got the job.
Too all the shirt lifters - I WON:D
Great old girl, just like mine unforgiving if you treat it rough, or forget a birthday, anniversary, when her nexit beauticians appointment is.
Landings not over till she,s tied down, the keys are in the office and your enjoying a cold one.
Get the point.
A pleasure to fly.
Multi

[ZEEBEE]

ZEEBEE, you got to admit you're not being completely honest here. Remember "Silver City Air Taxis"? The 180 (RFD, RFE, RFF) was the first after Auster KBH. Was there any comparison? You got the needle (inoculation) early in life.

Guilty as charged, Brian :E....but in my defense they are a lovely looking aircraft, and whilst I have a soft spot for the Auster, the 180 was a spaceship in comparison.

They even look terrific married to floats..and that's saying something.

[Captain Nomad]

he met lots of villagers (he couldn't quite comprehend that they were SDA and music was against their religion)

Bit of a long bow to draw isn't it? They may not have heard of Tommy Emmanuel, but music is certainly part of their life.

Great story though. What a claim to fame and a great way to form a friendship! It's a wonder his Dad survived. Imagine if he didn't - we wouldn't have Tommy's great music today... Probably one of the greatest guitar players Australia has produced.

[ZEEBEE]

A shame commercial operational ones seem pretty rare from what I've seen

Could partly be because there's so few pilots that can keep them the right way up.

Take poor old KPA as a case in point.....ground looped, written off and then resurrected five times in it's life. On one occasion it lasted no more than six days after a complete rebuild.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

http://www.fototime.com/4C781ED4A7BFBD9/standard.jpg
(VH-SDA, C180, now in the Seventh Day Adventist Church museum in NSW)

Oh dear! Now I am doing it.

Dr :8

http://www.fototime.com/6C0A061E537BE88/standard.jpg
(VH-KGT, now in UnZud)

[Chimbu chuckles]

No he wasn't worried/surprised they had no idea who he was but he asked them about their music and they indicated they were not allowed music on religious grounds - I have no idea if that is widespread along the length of the Kokoda Trail but it was at whichever village it was - thinking on it might have been Kagi.

He is a great guy - very humble and funny fella - lives in the states now so haven't caught up in ages.

[Captain Nomad]

May have been a bit of a misunderstanding on their part. It's certainly not a widespread SDA view anyway. I met plenty who were involved and loved music when I was up there.

So I guess if Tommy is in the great US of A that would explain why we haven't seen a lot of new material from him lately?

[the wizard of auz]

Ah, old KPA. last time I saw her, she was in the red and white scheme. I heard she had seen a few rebuilds due to bad foot work.

[ZEEBEE]

Ah, old KPA. last time I saw her, she was in the red and white scheme. I heard she had seen a few rebuilds due to bad foot work.

Yeah Wiz...It did indeed, though one of them was just bad luck, a wheel casting fractured at Kalgoorlie.....back to the building board! :uhoh:

[Desert Duck]

Crosswind kit made for some interesting footwork till you got used to it.
VH FDO I think.

[185skywagon]

Multime,
AGF is now up at Rocky.

Photos courtesy of the Hopton Collection.

GKE 185 in earlier times.
http://www.skywagons.org/gallery/albums/album130/gke.sized.jpg

COV 185
http://www.skywagons.org/gallery/albums/album130/cov.sized.jpg

COW 180
http://www.skywagons.org/gallery/albums/album130/p1127_0022.jpg

[tinpis]

One way to do it I suppose...:hmm:

Float.... push!... THUNK!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/aviation/DPF.jpg

[Aerozepplin]

How does a 185 compare to flying a cub? I'm guessing that extra horsepower would make her bite a lot harder on T/O, but if you can handle a cub would the step up be great?

I'm guessing yes, but hoping no.

[185skywagon]

the lead photo of this thread is from the Ed Coates collection.
This info is attached to the photo.
When DCA grounded the Ansons in 1962, Alan Rae, founder of Flinders Island Airlines,
replaced them with Skywagons. Seen above is the first VH-FIE at Moorabbin in May 1963.
FIA had acquired this machine exactly one year prior to Geoff Goodall taking this image.
Sold off by the airline in 1966, it became VH-EIE, thus leaving its rego open for the Beech.
VH-FIE later went to New Guinea and was damaged in a crash at Balimo in 1972. When
restored, it went onto the PNG register as P2-EIE. It began life on the US register as
N4193Y.

VH-FIE1 (http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac1/austcl/VH-FIE1.html)

RFD as discussed.
http://www.skywagons.org/gallery/albums/album28/vh_rfd.jpg
RFF as discussed.
http://www.skywagons.org/gallery/albums/album28/rff.jpg

[ZEEBEE]

How does a 185 compare to flying a cub? I'm guessing that extra horsepower would make her bite a lot harder on T/O, but if you can handle a cub would the step up be great?

I'm guessing yes, but hoping no.

Good guess Zepp!

Dramatically different aircraft in almost every way.

For a start, you sit about a metre higher in the Cessna and that makes a difference.

The Cube is truly fun to fly but it can be waffled around without really thinking too much.
It can be plonked onto the ground and it sort of rights itself without too much concern because it is a pretty light little machine.

The 180 and even more so the 185 DEMANDS your attention anytime you're within striking distance of the ground and REQUIRES consistent planning and technique to both take-off and land.
Furthermore it needs that attention ALL the way to hangar door.

Much heavier on the controls but so very responsive as compared to the blanc-mange response to the Cub's controls.

However, there are few things more satisfying than pulling off a greaser and coming to a nice controlled stop straight ahead ( I did that once !...I'll never forget it!)

Love the Cub...Respect the 180/185.

I could go on, but there are far more experienced people on this forum who can put it better than I.

[StudentPilot479]

The 185 I fly sure is a nice plane...and it's still teaching me a lot (mostly about proper landings :O). It's unfortunate I actually have to fly places and can't just burn some fuel in the circuit whenever I want. It looks great, along with the 170 and 195 one of the nicest looking Cessnas. I don't think it's the best looking series ever (*drifts off to dream about flying a Spitfire*).

Lots of nice looking 180/185s in N Zed (not to mention the scenery)...I don't suppose anyone will need some ballast for their plane in a couple months? :}

[tinpis]

Not every pilot in Talair was pleased to get stuck in the 185 and a lot avoided them
Us dumb old kiwis of course grew up on them, there being dozens of survivors and ex topdressers around

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/152566-png-ples-bilong-tok-tok-34.html#post2198904

[Tmbstory]

I had the pleasure of some little time in the crosswind version. This was in the early 1960's. As desert duck #43 states, once you get used to it, quite some fun.

Tmb

[ZEEBEE]

I had the pleasure of some little time in the crosswind version. This was in the early 1960's. As desert duck #43 states, once you get used to it, quite some fun.

Never quite understood the point of the xwind gear myself, it seemed like an unnecessary complication.

Once the technique of lowering the into wind wing down is mastered, I contend that the xwind landings are actually easier than direct headwinds.

The aircraft is less likely to bounce with one leg planted first.
Keeping it straight is then just a matter of judicious use into wind aileron as the ship slows down.

The machine going sideways would scare the hell out of me.

[185skywagon]

99% of my T/W experience has been in the 185.
One of the reasons they can get a bit stroppy , is that they have considerable length behind the main gear, compared with other types(Maule etc). I haven't flown a Maule.
If you are even slighty out of shape on tar, the resultant moment will quickly overcome any control margin you have.
This gets more and more pronounced as you increase the payload.
It is not as bad on grass/dirt, because of the surface slip available.

3 Blade props lessen the assymetric thrust (down -going blade etc) compared to 2 blade props but increase the gyroscopic force due extra rotating mass.

[HarleyD]

Have flown 180's and 185's on PVT, CHTR AWK and AG with a variety of dispersal systems.

Nothing much more satisfying than landing off a turn in a quartering tailwind up a short ag strip, with a prefectly timed pivot turn, under inertia, at the loader before blasting off again (and again and again...)

180 (especially the early ones) are the nicest, but unforgiving to the innattentive.

185 is a bit of a disapointment,more stable, much more forgiving, more power and more space, should be better, but I still prefer the old 180's with their nicer lighter handling and somehow always found them more fun to fly.

I have also flown 170's and straight tail 172 with t/w mod utilizing lightweight 180 legs, very sweet to fly and low low landing speed, way fun and from a short distance very difficult to pick from a 180. Also flown straight tail 150 with t/w mod, looked just like a little 180 from a distance and was fun but not so much as the real one or the modded 172.

Texas taildragger mod never rang my bell and i have not tried one, they just don't look right.

195 was a real conveyance, shakey jake and all, and the 188 very nice to fly but a bit of a ground hog.

HD

[tinpis]

Kiwi Ag pilots loved em cause they has a cigarette lighter and a heater, also a landing light for sneaking home late
I know of one fella would come home, clean up, and roar off again into the night to visit his popsie about a 100 miles away. One night the unthinkable happened. It stopped.
He switched on his light just in time to see a big Jersey cow filling the windscreen.
The farm lights come on , farmer gets shotgun and rounds up young fella climbing over fence.

"Aha, hands up yer bastard, yer the one been rustling me cows!"

"No mate I just landed me plane in yer paddock"
Much more comedy with cops being called etc..

Another fella borrowed a C180 to visit his popsie at night . Perfect landing on unlit airfield followed by a smooth roll through into a storm drain.
Exit NZ very quick smart.:rolleyes:

There wasnt a month go by it seemed something was happening with a 185.
A lot perished in them and they got an unfair reputation in Ag circles as "The Widowmaker"

[185skywagon]

Anyone know anyone who was involved with this??

http://www.skywagons.org/uploads/4583-digital%20pictures%202%20037.jpg
The C180 was a handy working aircraft, and many were used for crop dusting operations, In March 1958, an ag pilot working in New Zealand by the name of Don Erceg dropped his usual C180 into maintenance and picked up another. Something didn’t feel right, so Erceg returned and invited an engineer to join him so they could figure out the problem. The pilot put the aircraft through a series of manoeuvres hoping to demonstrate the ‘strange’ feeling to the engineer. Despite some increasingly aggressive moves the engineer couldn’t feel what this highly tuned ag pilots backside was telling him, not even as he took it through inverted! Erceg dropped off the engineer and returned to work. A couple of days later, while positioning the aircraft after a day’s top dressing the pilot felt a severe vibration followed almost immediately by silence. The aircraft stabilised in inverted flight and it is said that Erceg grabbed the only control he hadn’t so far tried, the flap handle. This somehow righted the aircraft and it fluttered to the ground where Erceg climbed out discovering that the engine had departed the airframe damaging the starboard strut and landing gear on the way. Erceg walked to a cattle station and called the engineer, telling him that the engine was missing. The engineer offered to send a mechanic with some fresh spark plugs but he soon realised that the engine was missing from the airframe! Three days later after some remedial work, ZK-BQJ took off from the field and was ferried to maintenance for some rather more substantial work.

[ZEEBEE]

Erceg walked to a cattle station and called the engineer, telling him that the engine was missing. The engineer offered to send a mechanic with some fresh spark plugs but he soon realised that the engine was missing from the airframe!

Priceless :D

I wouldn't have thought it possible.
CAA would have had him up for flying with the CG out of limits :}

[tinpis]

I knew Don "Goose" Erceg, and he loved telling that story.
He said there was a loud bang, and an almighty vibration. He dived for the throttle to close it but it, and pitch controls disappeared out through the panel!
He didnt have a bloody clue the engine and prop were gone because the top cowl was still in place. (see photo)
Pole hard forward with full flap seemed the right thing to do and he said it was on the ground before he had time to get REALLY frightened.
He was damn lucky, a Dutch fella had the same thing happen on a ferry flight and he never made it
It was a dud series of props, a retainer let go and a blade would fly off.
Don went on to do most of the flying in the Air Truck which he described as "So bloody awful only my 14000 hours topdressing experience kept me alive in it"

Wheres Fearless Feeney ? He be good for a 185 yarn or two.

Don Erceg somewhere in deepest darkest Te Kuiti

http://www.kiwibeavers.com/images/PL-11_Airtruck_CKE.JPG

[Tmbstory]

Zeebee:

Reference the C180 with the above gear, they did not seem to sell well and after a year or so disappeared from the market.

I recall at Canberra the first time I took one there and on the taxi, the comments from the ATC were "had my undercarriage collapsed" and did I need assistance.

Tmb

[Brian Abraham]

Among the Cessnas fitted with the crosswind gear were the 140, 195 and 170. Manufactured by Goodyear and permitted landing with some 15° of drift.

[ZEEBEE]

Among the Cessnas fitted with the crosswind gear were the 140, 195 and 170. Manufactured by Goodyear and permitted landing with some 15° of drift.

Hmm! I didn't know the 140 and 170 had them. :confused:

I wonder if the max XWind component was changed by the option?

I think I saw the on in Canberra...it all looked wrong somehow. Not surprised about the tower's comments :)

[Brian Abraham]

Developed by Goodyear in 1947. Some Cubs, Ercoupe, Helio Super Courier and Stinsons likewise fitted that I know of.
cross-wind landing | landing gear | goodyear cross-wind | 1949 | 1230 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1949/1949%20-%201230.html)

http://www.stinsonflyer.com/avphoto/nc9270k-1.jpg

[gassed budgie]

Now I know this is a Cessna 180/185 thread, but the195 has been mentioned a couple of times, so here it is.



http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/9742/cessna195bmedium.jpg


It must've been the Cadilac of the single engine GA types at the time. Isn't that just superb.

[ZEEBEE]

It must've been the Cadilac of the single engine GA types at the time. Isn't that just superb.

yep, with wind down windows and all !

185Skywagon wrote

One of the reasons they can get a bit stroppy , is that they have considerable length behind the main gear, compared with other types(Maule etc). I haven't flown a Maule.

get a load of the tail moment on the 195 !!

[ZEEBEE]

Developed by Goodyear in 1947. Some Cubs, Ercoupe, Helio Super Courier and Stinsons likewise fitted that I know of.
cross-wind landing | landing gear | goodyear cross-wind | 1949 | 1230 | Flight Archive

Scary photo Brian

I woder how the Ercoupe manged with them ? As I recall it didn't have any rudder pedals....just interconnects to the ailerons.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I always thought it was the short coupled taildraggers that were 'a bit stroppy' - because the rudder didn't have the 'arm' to give leverage:confused:

I think you will find Maules, Pitts etc have a worse reputation for being longitudinally 'hard work' than the Cessnas - what makes the Cessna bum draggers 'challenging' is the sprung steel undercarriage.

I think you are confusing aft CofG with length of fuselage...its just an empty metal tube unless you shove too much stuff in it. A C185 with a CofG on the aft limit is a different beast to one flown empty. Things get REAL interesting when you select flaps 30 or 40 and the control column hits the fwd stop, and stays there until you select less flap:uhoh:

The 195 is a delightful aircraft - easier to fly in many respects than the 185 - the view fwd and right on the ground is near non existent and the flaps delightfully useless in that they produce no extra lift and just barely enough drag to warrant their inclusion - but a fun aeroplane that simply oozes class.

If I wanted a classic tailwheel aircraft purely as a personal get about between reasonable (length) runways I would chose the 195 - if I wanted to haul stuff and/or operate into short/rough strips it would be the 185.

[ZEEBEE]

I think you are confusing aft CofG with length of fuselage...its just an empty metal tube unless you shove too much stuff in it. A C185 with a CofG on the aft limit is a different beast to one flown empty. Things get REAL interesting when you select flaps 30 or 40 and the control column hits the fwd stop, and stays there until you select less flap

yes it's really the relationship of the cg VS the pivot point (being the main wheels).

The Cessna TW series were generally characterised by having the main gear a LONG way ahead of the CG.
Even worse as Chimbu points out with (usually) over gross weight .

I guess thats why you could virtually stand on the brakes hard on landing without worrying about tipping over.
Try that on a Tiger with brakes and it's over you go.

[185skywagon]

I believe the Army had xwind gear on their 180's along with 10" rims, for a while.

[185skywagon]

What I think I am really talking about is arm/moment when it does get out of shape. As I said, I don't have any experience with any short fuse TW aircraft
I am not an instructor or teacher. I go to work and do what I have to do, to avoid bending it.
I'll defer to CC for any explanations.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I always thought it was the short coupled taildraggers that were 'a bit stroppy' - because the rudder didn't have the 'arm' to give leveragehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

I think you will find Maules, Pitts etc have a worse reputation for being longitudinally 'hard work' than the Cessnas - what makes the Cessna bum draggers 'challenging' is the sprung steel undercarriage.


That agrees with my understanding, although I have not flown a Maule.

Dr :8

[M14_P]

Chimbu, interesting stuff. Haven't flown a 180/185, but it's interesting to hear people's thoughts on how differcult these taildragger machines are or could be. Lots think the Pitts is nasty, and dangerous, and scary. It isn't. I have a mate who has 500hrs+ in 185s and reckons the pitts must be ghastly, I have a reasonable amount of time in the Pitts and reckon the 185 with a full load must keep things bloody interesting! Most two hole pitts have the factory bungy gear, but a single seater I have flown had the aluminium gear, and boy, what a stroppy wee so and so (under 1000Ibs with 180hp...) compared to the heavier and much easier S2A/B - but you get used to it!

I am guessing that with the bungy gear on the 180/185, this makes them more interesting with heavy loads on board? Interesting...

Most people seem to think that taildraggers are horribly scary, particularly Pitts or whatever, I personally find the Pitts easier to land in a howling crosswind than any others (Citabria, cub, Maule or Tiger etc) because they have so much directional control, in fact, they have so much control in all three axis right down practically to taxiing!

Must have a go in a 185, see what fun I have been missing out on! :ok:

[27/09]

Wheres Fearless Feeney ? He be good for a 185 yarn or two.
And a few other yarns as well over a glass of red so I hear.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Pitts was a bad example to use of 'short coupled' because it has such huge and effective flight controls - particularly in the tail. I was think too of earlier model Maules like the M4 which were short bodied and had smaller rudders than later models like the M7. Other examples of 'short coupled' are Luscombes and maybe even the Auster.

Another example of a tricky tw is the Helio - very long arm (tail cone) and very tall, but narrow chord, vertical stab/rudder with only a demonstrated crosswind limit of 7kts - perhaps more to do with the bizarre low speeds the thing was capable of. It too was fitted sometimes with crosswind gear.

I have so few Pitts (S2a) hours logged so long ago as to be meaningless - but my abiding memory was of SO MUCH control authority that over controlling was the first hurdle to overcome. Didn't take long but it was the first issue flying it. You thought it and it happened - if you actually moved the controls it was too much:ok:

185s/180s loaded and on tarmac can be challenging - in my view it is mostly down to the sprung steel main undercarriage - on grass the twisting that goes on (in the main gear legs) helps but on tarmac it sends you off in all sorts of unpredictable directions until you get on top of the aircraft. Quick feet required more than other taildraggers - WAY more than oleo taildraggers I have flown like the Winjeel.

Nothing about the 195 says 'easier' but it is - I have yet to decide exactly why. I suspect it is because the flaps are so useless it requires a flatter approach to control speed - its like landing a 185 flapless - which tends to be easier. My mate who owns the 195 thinks so too - before flying his new pride and joy he went out in another mate's 180 to get his eye back in - lots of TW time just not a lot in the previous 15+ years - he came back with that wild eyed, rung out, soaked in sweat look that a challenging aeroplane can produce in the less than current - and was much relieved when he flew the 195.

[tinpis]

Well, we will have to bring Feeney to the mountain


http://www.aerohub.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/c-180zk-buiautumn-61.jpg

AeroHub » “Anatomy of an Accident” (http://www.aerohub.co.nz/?p=745)

[Chimbu chuckles]

Better break out the white wine then - or hide it:}

[tinpis]

Better break out the white wine then - or hide it

Feeney will find it.......


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/feeney.jpg

[Chimbu chuckles]

"Men of Harlech stop your dreaming can't you see their spear points gleaming....'

Certainly a character:ok: **** singer but:E

[haughtney1]

Good old Mike......where is he at these days?

[tinpis]

Probably still props the bar at the WAC http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/beer3.gif
Here when the site is up... www.aerohub.co.nz

[Chimbu chuckles]

I emailed Fearless and received this back this afternoon:}

My dear Chucky...how jolly nice to hear from you. But I am terribly concerned that people might gain the impression that I have spent my entire life guzzling vino and spending much time with gorgeous women.

On the contrary, I never touched the demon drink until I was 18!

Cessna 195 is a gorgeous machine. A chap imported one into NZ some years ago. But unfortunately, on an early test flight out of Motueka, the prop ran to full coarse and they crashed into an orchard right off the end of the runway. They were badly injured as I recall.

I did try and register onto Prune quite some time ago but had a lot of trouble with the Login process.

And yes, I do prop up a leaner at our Waikato Aero Club on a Sunday evening...but not with gorgeous females....

Cheers and regards,
Fearless Feen.

I'll see if I can help with his login:ok:

He also sent me this pic of him instructing some poor hapless soul in the dark art.

http://www.fototime.com/{69A10804-5217-4DB8-8D6E-E0C0A77865BE}/origpict/Feen%20dicing%20with%20student.ZK-CKT.Taihape%20strip..jpg

[tinpis]

Yeh get the Feen in here :ok:
He is a veritable FOUNTAIN

[27/09]

He's still got that moustache I think, tho it may have changed colour a little since that pic was taken.

[Chimbu chuckles]

On the contrary, I never touched the demon drink until I was 18!

I think the fact that he was 18 approximately 104 years ago has escaped him:}

[205jack]

Hey have any of you high time old 180/185 lovers flown or had anything to do with turbine conversions and if so what are your thoughts?. Do they outperform the piston in High Da or High altitude (Australia) operations (work not play that comes later or maybe at the same time) and are there any in AUS?

205jack

[Chimbu chuckles]

Seen turbine powered Beavers/Otters/206/207/Bonanzas, and even a turbine C195, but have never seen a turbine C185 - for sure some Yank has done it:cool:

Typically when a Bonanza is converted the top of the green becomes the redline IAS and turbines eat fuel at a prodigious rate so need tip tanks and oxygen to get the range out of them. Sure they climb great but unless its a skydiving aircraft I can't see the point - but Yanks seldom need 'a point':ok:

[ZEEBEE]

Umm the Soloy doesn't do it for me I'm afraid. Apart from ruining the lines.....

I assume it would have an Allison C20 or somesuch.

Would only be of use somewhere you can't get Avgas and you HAD to have a 185.

The engine alone would be three times what the plane is worth really, and as has been pointed out, the performance is largely unusable.

Not to mention the 100l/per hr fuel burn against the 45l/hr of the 0-470.

Be fun not overpitching on take-off and mowing the grass (very expensively) too.

I think I'd rather go for a Porter if I HAD to have a turbine.

[VH-VIN]

The 185 landing at Valley road in Taihape, was that CKT?, the fearless feen did my 185 rating in that aircraft on that airstrip in 1990!!

[tinpis]

Um...too lazy to google.. is there a conversion for a switch from Conti to big Lycoming?

1990 eh VIN? According to Chucks calculations he would've been a 103.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yes it is CKT:ok:

[poteroo]

A185 with TSIO-520 + Robertson STOL

I was at the Cessna factory in Wichita in 1978, and managed to have a look inside a 185 fitted with a turbo'd 520 engine and it was also full Robby STOL. It was reportedly being used in the backblocks of Idaho - which is full of short strips at mod-high altitudes. Reckon it would have been the goods in PNG.

Short-coupled/long coupled?

Most frightening taildragger I've ever flown was a Taylorcraft of about 1990 vintage? No flaps and very twitchy. Close behind that was a C152 Texas Taildragger, which I once owned....but not for long...300 hrs! It was a mongrel for directional control- possibly because in the conversions it was easy to mount the gear leg so the wheels were in a 'toe out' position. I finally damaged it rather severely and converted it back to tricycle confign. Flew both the M5-210 Maules, VH-EMY and EMA, back in the 60's when they were imported to Brisbane and never thought they were a problem for dirn control.

Round rudder/square rudder?

I was told that the old classic round rudder Cessnas were that way because it gave the most leverage for the least profile. On a C170 that I owned for 12 years, it was the case that you became aileron limited long before rudder...more or less the opposite of a Cub. The longer fuselages of the older classic Cessnas would have also helped with rudder command - as noted by Chuck in an earlier post.

My Choice of Model?

The early model 180's, (180,180A,180B from 53-59), with the 'cutaway' lower engine cowling were,in my humble opinion, the fastest and best balanced of the lot. The panel was a dogs breakfast, but the aircraft trimmed out beautifully and were less likely to be overloaded to aft out-of-trim.

happy days,

[M14_P]

Yep Corky is keen on these me thinks. :)

[ZEEBEE]

Short-coupled/long coupled?

Most frightening taildragger I've ever flown was a Taylorcraft of about 1990 vintage? No flaps and very twitchy.

Poteroo,

You might have thought the same about the Auster J5G that we used for the BFR.

It inherited some of the wonderful traits of the Taylorcraft from where it descended .

They shared the 180 series directional twitchiness particularly with aft loads.

I'm not sure that the short coupling has a lot to do with it, because the Maules were traditionally short coupled and yet relatively benign in their handling compared to th likes of the 180 series.
Same with the Citabrias and Airknockers.

[the wizard of auz]

Poteroo, Did you ever get to pole Arnold's 150 horse C150 tail dragger?. that was the scariest buggy I ever sat my shapely behind in. :eek: 150's were just not meant to go that fast. the tops of the doors were sucked out of the frame at cruise. sure did a fine job of scaring sheep into a mob though. :ok:
I reckon that 170 of yours was the prettiest airplane I ever saw or sat in (yeah, I snuck a sit when it was in Collingridges hanger. :) ), very disappointed I never got to fly it.

[aileron_69]

Has anybody ever tried attaching a survey tailstinger on a 185 or any tai dragger for that matter? I reckon if set at the right angle it could work. The tail is already on the ground so in theory it shouldnt get any closer to the dirt unless someone reefs it back and gets the nose gear off first.

[haughtney1]

Just to add,

I met Mike Feeney at the Hauraki Aeroclub back in the mid 1990's when I was a mere fledgling.
I can confirm his singing voice doesn't improve with wine (fine or otherwise) and that after a glass or 7 of the good (or not so goodstuff) his eye for the ladies becomes somewhat lazy.........:E

A nicer bloke you'll never meet.

[Horatio Leafblower]

...you might have thought the same about the Auster J5G that we used for the BFR.

It inherited some of the wonderful traits of the Taylorcraft from where it descended from.

They shared the 180 series directional twitchiness particularly with aft loads.

Hundreds of hours in Chippies, C185 and Decathlon... only thing I ever ground looped was a bloody Auster.

In my defence... I was only BFR'ing a chap who had learnt to fly them in the Army in the 1950's (wo should have known better!) :E

[ZEEBEE]

Has anybody ever tried attaching a survey tailstinger on a 185 or any tai dragger for that matter? I reckon if set at the right angle it could work. The tail is already on the ground so in theory it shouldnt get any closer to the dirt unless someone reefs it back and gets the nose gear off first.

Not to my knowledge on a 185 though there has been some work done on Airtractors and the like.

In the late 80's GeoEX ( a Sth Aust company) ran a couple of 180's towing an underslung bird.

As you point out, there's no real reason it wouldn't work on a 180/185 other than being a bit vulnerable with uneven ground unless it was canted up fairly seriously.

[poteroo]

ZeeBee

Yes, began my student days in a J3 at RQAC, but it was benign at AF because it was 'allover' grass and we always were into wind. Recently did a BFR in a J5G with Lyco 180 and found it quite civilised. Maybe the new Scott 3200 tailwheel helped too.

Wiz

G'day. That 170 handled really well because when we fitted the 8.00 tyres, we took the gear legs off and re-tempered them so that they had an outside 'bow' - same as 180's - and that ensured there was a higher deck position as it sat on ground. The height from the door sill to ground with VH-OSZ was exactly the same as in Chris Gilmours' C180K, VH-UIA.

Many 170's become difficult to manage when they have a Scott 3200 tailwheel fitted because they sit very 'flat', making it really difficult to 3 point, (a la the infamous Texas Taildraggers without the full Bolen leg extension). BTW, OSZ now resides at Aldinga,SA.

How's life in POM?

happy days,

[codenamejames]

So what was the reason behind the one-wheeled landing?

I'm picking he didn't take off like that?:}

[poteroo]

Wiz

Forgot about Blackies' C150 TD. Yes, flew it with the 150 Lyco, but declined after he went 180HP. Once saw a C150 tailplane that nearly flapped unassisted after a lot of mustering with 150HP pulling it around in rough air. I don't think Clyde C intended them to have so much HP.

But, after saying all that, I'm admitting hypocrisy, as I fitted a Superior IO-360 to my RV-9A...when VANS says 160HP is the limit. It develops 190HP.

happy days,

[tinpis]

Anyone had a go at a 120/140?

I think them pretty, along with the Luscombe Silvaire

http://www.airbum.com/pireps/120140comp2.jpg

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2007-10/13/7573.jpg

[Jabawocky]

Poteroo

I am sure you have read about TAS and VNE. Just be careful is all. Van's Site has a good article about it. Sinus Gliders have a WARNING plate in the cockpit and have lost folk who did not play by the rules of physics.

Thread drift Off!

J:ok:

[Murray Cod]

ZeeBee,
KPA is now POO and it's still going strong despite the rego.
MC

[elzimex]

Having flown the both for some 2,500 hours on superspreading and instructional duties, I have only the best memories for a good-looking, easy to handle aeroplane in all kinds of off-airport ops.

It has a hard to define attraction to pilots who enjoy their flying at the same time as doing a challenging job outside of the ordinary, a great piece of kit to hone ones flying skills to the highest level.

If you have not flown it, you should.

Elzimex.

[Weheka]

Not many " retired airline pilots " in this club at the moment. The ones who do belong are bl**dy good blokes.
I could be wrong, but I think a couple of them I know topdressed for a few years in the very same machines they now own, before starting in the airlines?
Any photos are good photos Corky!:O

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn137/jskerr-photos/IMG_8457.jpg

[ZEEBEE]

ZeeBee,
KPA is now POO and it's still going strong despite the rego.
MC

Murray

Are you sure it's still a 185 ? I thought the rego was swapped to KPB or something like, when it was sold to someone in Port Lincoln who promptly (rumour has it) ground-looped it again :{

[ZEEBEE]

ZeeBee

Recently did a BFR in a J5G with Lyco 180 and found it quite civilised. Maybe the new Scott 3200 tailwheel helped too.

Poteroo

That was mine! and by implication, that was me.

The Scott tailwheel does help, but it still requires undivided attention (as per 180) when in proximity to terra-firma

[poteroo]

Never know who's lurking on this forum..........
happy days

[185skywagon]

KPA history.

SERIAL RGO MVT TYPE date OWNER Field10
1850549 KPC NTU 185 x N2549Z. Became VH-KPA (1)
1850549 KPA SOR 185 15-Apr-83 Withdrawn from use
1850549 KPA SOR 185 30-Jul-85 Damaged 29.07.1985 at Jandakot, WA
1850549 KPA RTR 185 09-Aug-88 Kevron Photographics
1850549 KPA CO 185 13-Sep-91 Kevron Pty Ltd
1850549 KPA COA 185 26-Nov-99 Kevron Pty Ltd
1850549 KPA RC 185 20-Dec-99 To VH-KPW (2)
1850549 KPW ATR 185 20-Dec-99 Kevron Pty LtdEx VH-KPA
1850549 KPW CO 185 17-Feb-00 A.C. Thomas
1850549 KPW co 185 01-Jan-06 current owner
1850549 POO cor 185 01-Jan-08 current

It sat at Port Augusta for awhile. Reports by locals of it emerging from a cloud of dust at far end of runway after a G-loop. Blown over by RAAF jet resulting in damage to RH wingtip and tailplane.
KPW at YPAG July 2004.
http://www.skywagon.info/webshots/KPWYPAG.jpg

[D-J]

1850549 KPW co 185 01-Jan-06 current owner
1850549 POO cor 185 01-Jan-08 current

POO's had some work done & now's a very nice jump ship down at moruya

[185skywagon]

POO's had some work done & now's a very nice jump ship down at moruya
Yep, know that. just didn't want to put any current names up without permission.

[saabsforever]

See a pic of CKT at valley road, I flew her there about the same time. terrific STOL performance with the sportsman Kit. Had it back to 35 kias, pretty empty of course. CGG with the original cessna 185 wing will only get back to about 50-55 and then the stall warning comes on and the sink starts, you can see it in Chucks video but very docile with it and easy to catch. Runs out if ailerion response at low speed too. Back to CKT the noise was awesome as well with a massive 2 blade prop, forget the size. After Valley road she went to Pokeno as a Parachute drop ship for many years. Sadly a year ago she was at Ardmore in pieces, outside looking forlorn and neglected, corroding badly. The cost of rebuilding these Hulls is well into 6 figures now and I hope someone takes up the challange. As an owner I must warn against buying one, you will not want to sell it even after it has taken all your money:{:{

[c100driver]

You are correct there, after 20 years of C180 ownership she still takes all my money but gives me back some fantastic memories. 9500 feet sliding past the big chook in the spreading dawn.

The C180 and 185 are really good at doing everything, short field, rough field, cross country, load carrying, towing, dropping etc.

[ZEEBEE]

185Skywagon

Thanks for the rundown on KPA now POO.

Whatever possessed them to use that rego????

Murray Cod gave me the heads up originally, but I mistakenly thought that it was based at POO (didn't have a clue where that was either, but was too chickensh*t to admit it) on the basis that NO-ONE would actually use that as a rego.

Wrong again!


Anyway...good to see her working again.

[tinpis]

Did read I somewhere, the private owner cost for 100 hours flying per annum was $30000?

[185skywagon]

Whatever possessed them to use that rego????


Ah, you'd have to know the owners to understand that.
It is the nickname of one of them. Prone to hurling himself out of aeroplanes, alot.:ok:

See these excellent handling notes from a bloke that put a bit of thought into it.
C185 handling notes (http://www.skywagon.info/newsletter/A%20Cowboys%20guide%20to%20the%20Cessna%20185.pdf)

[saabsforever]

Tinpis
$30 000 a year sounds about right:eek:. If you work it all out properly.:\ Fortunately I dont or I would do the sensible thing and sell the thing.The mistake alot of people make is to pay all the overheads and annual maintainance and then not fly it because they think it costs an arm and leg to start up. So most Private ones would be lucky to do 100 hrs a year making the hourly all up cost even higher. Plus the insurance after they crash due lack of currency:uhoh: I figure once in the hanger with the annual and insurance paid the only marginal cost up to 100 hrs a year is the fuel, even the engine needs that use to stay healthy. Chuck is happy to help with the 100 hrs! Just did a trip down south. 135-140 Kts, 400 Nm, 5 pob, 50 lph, landed in a Farm paddock on the way no drama. Very few aircraft can do that combination. As for the cost well went to the Auckland boat show last year and decided a 185 is still good value, and look the same in 20 yrs time.

[Fantome]

A cowboy's guide to the Cessna 185


These notes or collection of trivia are just a selection of thoughts on C185 handling and other aspects of the type. There has been little material formerly available for those newly rated or for new owners, so the following may be handy. It contains
advice on some operations that are ill advised and outside the normal flight envelope.
Sometimes people end up there whether by intent or not. Much of this stuff is opinion only,
and must be taken as an 'at your own risk' guide. Above all, use common sense. The only way to learn to fly one
is to go and do it. As with all motor skills that involve significant risks, it is better to start rehearsing with a few ideas rather than being caught short. Most published aircraft and manufacturer material is written with a
view to avoid legal liability. In some cases by lawyers for lawyers. These notes are primarily intended
to inform pilots operating in average, non-demanding locations. Hence, you need not try all this stuff on your home patch. However, since the C185 tends to
be used for short field and mountain flying these notes are also written with that in mind.
My experience was gained in the Southern Alps of New Zealand and
commercial ops in Papua New Guinea. My total time on the C185 is only about 1000 hours but covers 30 years.


Emergencies

Mostly the standard engine failure drill for forced landings. One idea if forced to dead-stick into a very small clearing or beach is to pole forward and lock up the brakes as soon as
firmly on the ground. This will flip the aircraft and it will stop in a short distance with relatively
little damage. The occupants should be safe from harm with the wing below and the
tail-section to absorb any impact. It would take some nerve to actually do this but in theory it
sounds like a good idea. Partial engine failures are actually more common. Mainly magneto
failures, cracked cylinders and blocked injectors. In all these cases the engine will run with
some vibration but performance will be affected and it may not be possible to remain at
altitude. Remember to use the electric fuel pump if an engine failure occurs.


In it's entirety, a great essay. Above is only a small extract from the link that has been provided here today.

[185skywagon]

Did read I somewhere, the private owner cost for 100 hours flying per annum was $30000?
My 185 cost are about $65K for 700 hr/yr, including some fuel. About 500 hours are done where client supplies fuel.
That figure includes insurance and maintenance but not finance charges or engine/prop provisions, hangarage, avionics upgrades etc.

Straight out Maintenance/repair cost are about $25K/700hr.
Airframe is relatively young though.
Engine cost are negligible, over the life of 3-4 years, provided they are treated well.



Works out to about $92/hour for me.
About $180/hr for everything (avionics, minor plant, interest,hangarage etc) excluding fuel as mentioned above.

[tinpis]

Remember to use the electric fuel pump if an engine failure occurs.

Climbing out from Lumi PNG, I had an injection "spider", think thats what it was called, thingamy on top of the crankcase, break and create much heart stopping bangs and vibration.
I did turn the electric pump on but that just increased the already overpowering smell of petrol
****e! Not good, over jungle, shut engine, lowered nose and bugger me there was a mission strip right in front of me!
I managed to land dead stick without cocking it up (Anguganak ) and hitched a ride back to Wewak with the surprised mission pilot that was parked on the strip watching me come in.

[Weheka]

My costs per flying hour based on 900+ hrs per year are around NZ$240.00. This is fuel (70-75 ltrs per hr ) engine and prop replacement / overhaul, insurance, maintanence + a bit for unscheduled stuff. This is not allowing anything for a full paint job and interior at some stage, hangerage or any new avionics that may be needed. Obviously fuel price fluctuations can change this figure quite a bit, at the moment I am paying around NZ$1.90 per litre. Also no finance costs included. Would be pretty close to your figure 185skywagon, taking into account exchange rate and a few things.

[Chimbu chuckles]

fantome the author of that fine piece of practical writing is posting on this thread - saabsforever.:ok:

With no load it is possible to fly to the maintenance base and hardly use the flat wheel. Elevators, brake and power will keep the tail up even from a standing start and to a dead stop. Take care not to tip over though. Also with heavy use the tail spike can fatigue and break. They are hollow so if
stuck find a 3/8 reinforcing rod, weld a plate on one end for a skid and bash the other into the hole. That will get you home.

I used to have a picture of me landing at Moresby that day Sarge - long since lost unfortunately:ugh:

[Fark'n'ell]

Hey if anyone knows of any that may be for hire in NZ share your info !
Would also be interesting to know the same about oz too..

Corkey

Get in touch with the owner of the 180 shown in #107.He may be able to help.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Me landing CGG at Gorge River

f2BtJoWtApk

Sarge landing at Hunter Strip. You can see what he means by a tail low wheeler followed by quickly reducing the angle of attack in this vid - rolls it on into thigh high grass beautifully.

A6A2Wud0FHI&feature=related

http://www.fototime.com/{CEA38458-4977-4C87-9F50-E496F05DAD09}/origpict/P3130058.JPG

Chuck is happy to help with the 100 hrs!

If I can't put 10-15 hrs per year on CGG then I just aint trying:ok:

[tinpis]

Whats that shroud thingy around the exhaust?

[Warbo]

Whats that shroud thingy around the exhaust?

It's a speed mod popular amongst the seppos.

[saabsforever]

It helps with cooling by stopping air coming up thru the exhaust hole and pressurising the bottom of the cowling. Thats the idea and might get a bit more speed to. Someone on the 180/185 club forum reckoned its as good as the 206 type cooling vents. Without a decent cht gauge I have no idea but think it looks better anyway!

[VH-VIN]

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af227/wsagepa20/009.jpg?t=1251484042



Dave, you need to to get some bigger wheels on that airport machine so you can really go places!!!!!

[tinpis]

Mate, you need extra COOLING in Kiwi? http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/penguin.gif

[185skywagon]

The following should make interesting reading.

ATSB 180/185 accidents involving private ops. (http://www.skywagon.info/newsletter/ATSBpvtaccident.pdf)

[tinpis]

One would have to declare the 180/185 "not guilty" in the majority of those cock ups.

Weheka did BYI have any traces of Black and Pink paint on it?
If so it once belonged to an old barsteward in the Yhttp://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/catblink.gifO

[Weheka]

Tinpis,
We bought BYI from a retired farmer in Wanaka in 1990 and had it untill May 1997 when it had a short stint in Taupo, untill I purchased it again in Sept 97 ( should have bought a 185 then ) I sold it again in March 2002 and have had 185s since. It was a great machine and we had some fun times in it, although BYI with the sportsmans kit on it, was never as good at getting off the ground as old BJY was, without any fancy do-dads. Mind you, I had a friend fly three of us, plus a bit of junk out of Barn Bay in BYI once ( I wasn't game, and had a lot of respect for his experience ) and he made it all look easy! uphill as well!

I know BYI came in as a Rural ship brand new and was used by the owners as a sort of spiv ship and was not a topdresser. I think it was the first single engine IFR plane into the country? Could well be corrected there.
From there it had various owners including aeroclubs and also various prangs! (There but for the grace of God go I!)
When it was with Rural it was dark blue and red and white. There could well have been some pink paint there somewhere along the line.

P.S. Really enjoy reading the various threads about N.G. from you, C.C., Sarge and others. Keep it up.

A shot landing in the head of the Hunter, forget the name of the strip.
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn137/jskerr-photos/scan0007.jpg

[Weheka]

Tinpis,
Black and pink? it is starting to ring a bell as horrible a colour it must be! I will have to scratch around in my photo stash. Someone is bound to have one anyway.
Loading up the essentials, BYI and BJY Hokitika, for a trip to the Kaipo.
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn137/jskerr-photos/scan0009.jpg

[tinpis]

Yup, black and pink complete with spats, got me flying it Oct 1967 in me log

[Weheka]

Yea tinpis,
I googled a photo by Peter Lewis 1967, BYI with spats (yuk!) and original factory (I think) paint job. Can't post it, besides not having the computer skills anyway, I think my colour photo with what I think is dark blue and red, is actually black and pink. Have a look, you might have parked it in that spot!

[saabsforever]

Tinpis, You sure aint from the deep south (picks banjo:\) or you would know that it gets hot as a snakes belly in a wagon rut round the central South island in summer. Wanaka can be around 35 c day after day some summers.
BYI is a great ship and was very well looked after by EC in Wanaka. He did have a couple of fairly minor landing mishaps but yes BYI had a dream early life compared to the rest, and had all the bits.
I know of at least one which Rural built from Parts and wheeled out and registered! No Cessna SN. For that matter by the time they did the topdressing mod to wings and Fuse they were fairly non standard anyway. Cgg still has all the extra structure and is about 80 KG overweight but stronger than stock.
NZ numbers are building up and they are becoming one of the more common older types, as the early 172s etc are not worth doing up and slowly head to the tip. It is just a great type for this country and our engineers charge less than most western countries to work on them I guess.
Finally a thought on costs. My cousin has a nest of Robbies and he laughs at me every time I snivel about the bills for the 185. Probably because even a R22 is about $250 000 to do up ( About the same as a 185) but only does 2200 hrs or 12 yrs then its off to the tip.

[tinpis]

Thats her Weheke
Peter Lewis must have been following me around in the sixties (I dont know the gent) But that photo is pretty close to the day I was flying it.
Under the old tower Rukuhia where Black Jack Bindon ran his flying school in the fire station.

http://www.airport-data.com/images/aircrafts/small/130/130046.jpg

[tinpis]

If I lived in kiwi, which I never will, and if I had the loot, which I never will, this is what I would own


http://www.salterylodge.com/imagedatabase/Gallery/Aircraft/500onbeach1.jpg

[185skywagon]

Just to show that no-one is immune.....
Charter and ag accidents since 1969 (http://www.skywagon.info/newsletter/ATSBcharteraccident.pdf)

[Oakape]

Was that the CKT that was at Mt Cook Airlines in the 60's?

[saabsforever]

Yep. Mt Cook sold her in the late 80s, was getting a little tired then cosmeticaly. Went to Tiahape after a local Farmer brought it and Mike used it for ratings in the early 90s. Then off to drop ship duties till recently.

[Alex 009]

Quite a sad site that picture, hopefully she will become airworthy again. She is just crying out for the 550 engine up the front!

[Shredder6]

I don't even think the wings are attached at the moment! :(

[Oakape]

That's more than a little sad!

She was dad's 'aeroplane' when he was at Mt Cook in '66. Brand spanking new then & was red & white - an arguably safer colour when operating in the snow than the pale blue & white used later & shown in the photo. The red 'safety' strips are a consession to that. She arrived with CKP, which became the Chief Pilot's plane.

It sure would be nice to have the money to buy her & do her up.

[Weheka]

Not sure if these have been on Prune before, anyway BJY "parked" at Gorge River, and take off at Barn Bay, much better strip than it is today!
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn137/jskerr-photos/CCE00000.jpg

[baron_beeza]

The photo of a forlorn CKT brings back memories.
I was asked to do an ARA on it when it was only a slightly better state. It had been flying so I guess the wheels, eng and prop may have been in place back then.

It had a few days to go, - so I suggested it should carry on to a more suitable location, one where the repairs could be carried out. I doubt it has moved much since that time.
I am afraid to say I have not seen many aircraft more tired than this was,- a shame but I am sure it will bounce back.
After all it is only money.

[c100driver]

BJY in her working clothes. My old girl used to be a sister ship with her in the deep south for many yearshttp://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af288/c100driver/BYJSouthernSenic.jpg

Good shot of the longer Barn Bay, the strip is very much shorter now.

[frothy]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj286/Grothy1/C180185FormatiomCorowa1.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj286/Grothy1/AJumpPilotwaits.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj286/Grothy1/185satplay640x480.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj286/Grothy1/185satplay2.jpg fun and games No.2 is what happens waiting for bloody jumpers
Photo No.1 was down at Corowa in the '80's that was a blast.


Frothy

[frothy]

Forgot to mention first photo above was one 180 and 5 185's. unusual to have that many together so we took the opportunity, never let a chance go by:)

frothy

[gkja]

Is that VH-DGL?

[frothy]

Sure is. Harry S and I have heaps of time sitting in her. Used to be the best 185 on the jump circuit. When just us two were flying it we had no major trouble. Got flipped on t/o but is in Scone last I saw(rebuilt) and lookin' shmick. DGL is in the formation as well

frothy

[gkja]

DGL (Did Ground Loop).That was a sad day.If you're who I think you are,you'd moved on by the time I came along but you dropped in and flew the old girl again about the mid 90's for a few loads one day.Is Harry still kicking?We left there about 10 years ago and I often wonder about my old mate Harry.

[frothy]

gkja, and all that know Harry,I was talking to a well known Aerobatic Operator from MND about a fortnight ago and yes he's kicking on. I should get top his age:D
He wound up at the age of about 75 flying KPF after starting with flying the Dragon(AGC) then 180(CYJ) then DGL. Over 10k hrs for the Newcastle Parachute Club(NSPC). Sterling dedication. He started flying them when I started Jumping. When I was able to learn to fly and got qualified I got smart and had the pleasure to fly with GHS starting with CYJ. Hope to get down to MND before the end of the year for a beer or three with Gerald Henry.

frothy

[aseanaero]

one 180 and 5 185's. unusual to have that many together

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj286/Grothy1/C180185FormatiomCorowa1.jpg

I thought it was a flyby of frontline RNZAF aircraft ...

[frothy]

Did NZ have that many ????:)

Frothy

[Stationair8]

I printed this off and gave it to a retired Lame to have a read off. He spent a few years in the 60's and 70's working on C180/185's in PNG, Hazelton's and then for Schutt's.

He has a couple of questions,

1. Can anyone recall who imported the last C180 and C185 into Australia and the callsign's? He thought it might have been brought in my Arthur Schutt

2. Did the last of the C180/185 retain the manual flaps?

Regards
S8

[185skywagon]

Last 180 ever made is in oz MQQ.
Last 185 ended up in china via OZ(allegedly) on an agricultural aid program.
Manual flaps till the end.

[Rodda]

My "onney" experience.
Awsome machine.

http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv16/theflyingrodda/Photo0120.jpg
180
http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv16/theflyingrodda/Photo0121.jpg
180
http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv16/theflyingrodda/Photo01270.jpg
180
http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv16/theflyingrodda/Photo01290.jpg
180
http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv16/theflyingrodda/PICT00100.jpg
185

:ok:

[skywagondriver]

Keep the photos coming...

My love affair with the 180/185 started one day as an eleven year old in 1960 when my father gave me five hard earned bob to have a flight in the Wellington Aero Club's BUS...

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/chinapilot/BUS.jpg
Photo credit WAC

Little did I know then that I would be type rated on them in 1966 [at Hastings AC as they were the only club operating them then] and hauling them around earning a living in 1969...great load carriers.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/chinapilot/P1030476.jpg

Many years later in 2009 it's still a pleasure to fly one...:)




http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/chinapilot/P1000869-2.jpg

[frothy]

rodda
That's her, did my t/wheel endorsement in it at Cudal with Nigel Johnson. He didn't bother about taking the seed pod off because he reckoned I was going back to fly a 180 with a few human bodies hanging out one side anyway. Cudal in the middle of Winter as a few of you will know a bit icy in the mornings!!. He gave me a blo*dy good workout ,for which I've always been thankful.
Thanks for posting those photos

Frothy

[185skywagon]

Frothy, would that be Nigel who flew for RFDS n Cairns for a few years??

[Rodda]

no worries, KVW was in Hervey Bay for skydiving when I flew her, and DFO lives at Latrobe Valley and does a bit of everything, charter, photos, dropping, towing, training. Provided me with some invaluable experience building.

skywagondriver that bottom photo is a cracker, what a great strip!

[frothy]

Sky Wagon
Dunno I met him at Cudal early to mid '70s. worked for Hazo boulder hopping. A blo*dy good bloke too. Forced landings were" I can make it back to the Strip." The reply " Pick youself another paddock"
He must have known every inch of that area 'cause I had to plonk it in.
I've got an idea he fired an anti spin drogue in anger, could be wrong, has been known:}
He seemed a pretty fair age when I met him, but I was only a young buck then.
Sorry I can't help you on the RFDS thing

Frothy

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

The last new C185 brought into country was VH-ECV for the late Vern Reid in Hobart.

[Wanderin_dave]

VH-ECV was still going strong, looking very nice and not many hours on the clock as of a couple of months ago. Still based in Northern TAS.

Should have ponied up the cash to fly her when I had then chance
:ugh::{

[tinpis]

Driving up to Darwhine terminal last weekend I thought I spied a Kiwi reg 180 in the GA park?

[skywagondriver]

Correct..it's on it's way North eventually.

[Corkey McFuz]

What rego is that Kiwi one in OZ ?

[tinpis]

North? Bathurst Island?
Theres no Avgas in Indonesia. :hmm:

[skywagondriver]

You've guessed the problem...

[Wildpilot]

This has to be the best thread on pprune, tell me, I have never had the chance to fly the 180/185. Are they both six people including the pilot, so the size of a 206 or more cramped. I have been thinking about operating one in the future I have plenty of tail wheel time just not on these fantastic machines.

So could you with a pod fitted take similar loads to a 206 in a 185 and what is the cruise speed generally.

Thanks:ok:

[zac21]

I believed the last new C180 sold in Australia was VH-FLS owned by Arthur Fane of "Fanes Landrover Spares" from Nambour QLD.
Somewhere about 1982/4, but I could be wrong. And they were all manual flap to the end.

[Aerodynamisist]

Ive got a picture of a tailwheel 206 around some where i''l post in here when i find it. (american rego experimantal written on the side)

[Wildpilot]

I know there used to be loads in NZ back in the day but why not now is it that the 206 is easier for maintenance or is it a lack of good tail wheel pilots around. So I still would like to know if the 185 and 206 are comparable in pax and load etc.

[Fantome]

I still would like to know if the 185 and 206 are comparable in pax and load etc.

All the specs are readily available if you can be bothered doing your own research.

[Wildpilot]

You are a typical unfriendly pprune tosser this site could do without.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Wildpilot the C185 v C206 runs something like this.

Same engine much bigger/roomier/heavier cabin/aircraft in the 206.

C185 performs better than 206 in all respects.

C185 will lift more weight out of rough, marginal strips.

C206 easier to load - I have carried two 44 gallon drums in a C185 buts its a pain loading them and unloading.

C185 is a MUCH tougher aircraft - C206s tend to lose the odd nosegear. Yes 185s lose the odd tailwheel but the result is DRAMATICALLY less expensive.

Outside of niche markets - i.e. REAL bush flying - the C206 is probably the more economically viable aircraft.

While the 185 is undoubtedly a MUCH harder aeroplane than the 206 to fly well oddly enough it is MY view (shared by many I trained) that it was an easier aircraft to take in and out of short/rough/steep strips than a C206 once you knew how to fly them. C206s must be treated gently/are speed sensitive less you damage the firewall/rip out the nosegear - 185s you can just throw on the ground.

[c100driver]

This has to be the best thread on PPRuNe, tell me, I have never had the chance to fly the 180/185. Are they both six people including the pilot, so the size of a 206 or more cramped. I have been thinking about operating one in the future I have plenty of tail wheel time just not on these fantastic machines.

So could you with a pod fitted take similar loads to a 206 in a 185 and what is the cruise speed generally.



As there are far more early C180 than later model C180 you could say that the C180 is a four seat aircraft. From the C180H you could have a six seat aircraft but the aircraft really struggled (think a C185 with seventy less HP).

The rear seats in the C185 are not for long flights or large people. Two standard Aussie or Kiwi blokes would not fit in the rear seat (unless they are very friendly) let alone manage to get into the rear seat compartment.

For basic commercial operations (A to A operations or good condition airstrip operations) the C206 is a much better aircraft if you need to carry 5 pax or large bulky loads. If trying to make money from light air transport operations the C206 is the far better aircraft.:sad::sad::sad:

Where the C185 really shines is very rough strips, beaches, or bare paddocks. With a cargo pod the C185 will carry similar loads (weight wise, five pax plus baggage) to a clean C206 (A C206 with a cargo pod will still carry more) but the C185 has better manners and is nicer to pole at MAUW that a C206.

In Summary: A C185 for fun and a C206 for Mon!

Speed wise clean they are very similar at about 125 to 135 knots at MAUW though there such a large variation between the same types that it is hard to find an "average". I have operated two C206 that were built one year apart and with the same equipment but the 77 model was always faster by about 6%.

[185skywagon]

Zac21,
gidday. Longtime no hear.

The last 180 ever made, is VH-MQQ. It lives down in SE Qld somewhere.
You are correct about the ex "Arfur" Fane Machine. It lives near Coonamble, these days.

C100,
IMHO, the 185 would be a bit faster than the 206. Mine turns out 143 ktas at 2300/24, No pod and 800-6 tyres.
The last 206 (good order) I flew only managed around 130ktas.

I use the 185 on charter occasionally (as pilot/3pax). It is not a great revenue generator compared to the 210, but it is no more costly to run, than a C182. It will carry more (legally) and is faster than same.

It does, however, shine in the rough and dirty work. Performance, robust airframe and simple systems.

cheers,
185.

[c100driver]

I once flew a near new U206G in the early 1980's that had only 300 hours on the clock and it could not get above 125 with a load on. This thing was a total dog from the day it was made. Yet a 1970 vintage U206F that I flew a lot on ATO would always do 135 with a full load. All of the other C206 aircraft I have operated fell somewhere in between.

I think that 185's are the same, some are born fast at the factory. There are a few that I can keep up with in an early O-470 J C180, and some that just blast away like a dog shot in the a*se

[tinpis]

Doug the kiwi TAL engineer told me to go stand way out in front of VH-GKI a 185 and have a good look
Holy Sh*t the wing looked like a propellor
That was the reason for the wing drop on landing and general pig performance
They had rebuilt the wing on the hangar floor without a jig!

[185skywagon]

C100,
I know of one C180 with a IO-550 installed. Owner reckons he gets in excess of 150 ktas. I know a couple of the early 180s with the 88" props take some beating.

[Piano Man]

A C180/185 with an IO-550 has to be one of the best engine/airframe combination out there.

If I had to take the choice between a 185 and a 206 I would take the older girl every day.

[c100driver]

They had rebuilt the wing on the hangar floor without a jig!


One of the fastest C180 (with a standard O-470K) in NZ was rebuilt on a table. Quite a lot of discussion here about jigs and monkeys v tables and craftsman.

[Fantome]

The last new C185 brought into country was VH-ECV for the late Vern Reid in Hobart.

Ah, Vern, more than just a 'one off'. He pulled ECV out of his hangar at Cambridge early one morning. Battery flat, so with no assistance used the old 'Armstrong Starter'. Took off on him, didn't she. Tower away over on the hill could see through the binos some movement. Then a croppy called up taxying and tower gave him 'Possible traffic , ECV taxying. He's not called yet.'

Croppy - 'Ah no. Don't think he can. He's chasing his plane round the tarmac.'

ECV finally ploughed into Vern's hangar doors.

(Vern had a Tiger on floats. VH-AIF. Lost her in the February '67 fires.)

Then there was MTL, the Victa, that got away from her keeper in the same
vicinity.

[tinpis]

monkeys v tables and craftsman.

I think the monkeys in the Goroka hangar may have had a hand in GKI.

[tinpis]

A 185 yarn

Omkalai PNG 1970 (or How I learnt to love C185 tailplanes)

I dropped off the orli pax at Omkali cranked the 185 and spun her round for the return trip to Goroka. Trim set, flaps, controls full and free away we go down the ski jump slope that was Omakali (loved it), hint of back stick and we are airborne, up flaps and start a gentle climbing turn left for GKA.
Something wrong, ease stick forward,bugger, its jammed! Try roll right , jammed! **** me controls are stuck, wiggle rudders yep they are working, roll in down trim nose goes down so we have something
Well right or wrong I'm getting back on the ground real soon, so rudder it round back to Omkalai. Using rudder, power and trim we make a successful landing back up the slope of Omkalai. Switch off and listen to me knees knocking (As a pax I had just recently stepped out of a ball of 206 wreckage in that very parking bay)

What had happened?
The ginger-beers had put the duals in a couple of days before. I didn't like it and asked for them to be removed. Only being a dopey pilot I was duly ignored (Not by the ginger beers but by I suspect Rocky the alky base bag snatcher)
The bolt holding the pax side pole was too long. Inserted upwards it rubbed on a vac pipe leading to the vac guage. After a couple of days rubbing it finally broke through the pipe and popped inside effectively jamming the stick in a dirty big thick rubber pipe.
If I had of stuffed up and burnt no bugger would have been any the wiser.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/untitled-4.jpg

[Fantome]

The evening here is too cooool for goose flesh.

[Aerozepplin]

As a pax I had just recently stepped out of a ball of 206 wreckage in that very parking bay

That's a very evocative sentence.

[185skywagon]

WildPilot,
my 185 weighs approx 865kg BEW. MTOW is 1519.
I think that the 206 is around 200 kg heavier, but has around a 200kg higher MTOW.
So, they would have about the same payload.
The 206 is far more roomy.

185.

[Corkey McFuz]

One of the fastest C180 (with a standard O-470K) in NZ was rebuilt on a table. Quite a lot of discussion here about jigs and monkeys v tables and craftsman.

Out of interest, what one in particular is that ?

[Piano Man]

The 206 is far more roomy


But not as fun from the front left seat :ok:

[Wildpilot]

Thanks everyone, as I mentioned I have far to many hours at mauw in a 206 but would love the ruggedness of the 185. Thanks again interesting read.

[tinpis]

I knew there was a photty of Omkalai somewhere, they is as rare as rocking horse guano
Been closed now for about 25 years was the steepest commercial strip in PNG at the time
Imagine putting your controls locks in just after take off :ooh:

THERE WILL BE A SHORT INTERVAL FOLKS WHILE WE LOOK FOR A PHOTTY OF OMKALAI THAT CHUCKLES LIKES
:{

Here we go faded, but then aren't we all since 1973?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/aviation/OmkalaiCirca1973.jpg

Thanks to Frank B for the photo

[Chimbu chuckles]

That looks like Wonenara to me Tinny - Omkalai is/was on a ridge-line that dropped steeply away on the left to the Wahgi River:ok:

[tinpis]

hmmm:hmm: on second thoughts it dont look steep enough over the left side do it?

Bugger, better take it off before I is called a silly old git

[tinpis]

Ya know I been caught before as well :{

http://www.pprune.org/dunnunda-godzone-pacific/50096-unknown-png-airstrips-5.html#post469364

[Fantome]

Thank you tins. That old post by chuckles (#22) is a pearler. There's a shot of Omkalai somewhere is the first 'Balus' book by James Sinclair, that paragon of documenters of what it was like, 'Wings of Gold' and subsequent.

[skywagondriver]

185Skywagon wrote...The last 180 ever made, is VH-MQQ. It lives down in SE Qld somewhere

I think the last 180 made is N180FN [FN for 'final'] and that is presently in the UK

[185skywagon]

Not according the serial numbers I have. will investigate, however.
VH MQQ

Power Driven Aeroplane with tailwheel-fixed landing gear
Single Piston engine

Manufacturer: CESSNA AIRCRAFT COMPANY
Model: 180K
Serial number: 18053203
Aircraft first registered in Australia: 03 June 1983

Full Registration

from the US club info
Last 180 completed (SN - 18053203) rolled off the production line September 10,
1981.
Total production was 6,193.
All corrections made through 9/1/1995.

[edsbar]

Cessna Service Newsletter SNL94-6 Lists Propeller Airplane Serial Numbers, 1981 serial numbers are ........

180K SKYWAGON 1981 18053168-18053203

18053203 is VH-MQQ

From the FAA register.

N180FN
Serial Number 18053201 Type Registration Corporation
Manufacturer Name CESSNA Certificate Issue Date 04/30/2003
Model 180 Status Valid
Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Single-Engine Type Engine Reciprocating
Pending Number Change None Dealer No
Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 50240466
MFR Year 1981 Fractional Owner NO

1981 was the last year of production for the 180 and 1985 for the 185 (18504448 last 185)

[Chimbu chuckles]

Now THAT is Omkalai:ok:

[skywagondriver]

Good sleuthing guys...obviously 'FN isn't the last of the breed !!!

My one is around 12 from the end with the 185 empennage/float kit etc.

[StudentPilot479]

I knew there was a photty of Omkalai somewhere, they is as rare as rocking horse guano
Been closed now for about 25 years was the steepest commercial strip in PNG at the time
Imagine putting your controls locks in just after take off

Out of curiousity, how steep was Omkalai? What is the steepest strip in PNG these days?

[tinpis]

Funny, I don't ever remember anybody having a rave about a 206?

[Oakape]

Can anyone tell me how short a strip the 185 can get into & out of?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Can anyone tell me how short a strip the 185 can get into & out of?


Depends how good you are!

Dr :8

[Oakape]

True DTR, but not helping! :hmm:

So, how many metres for them that are really good & how many for them that aren't so good? ;)

I got some figures off the web, but was wondering what the length was of the shortest strips they have been regularly operated into over the years.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Is a positive climb gradient a requirement?:E

[Jabawocky]

here are a few ideas for you.....but the driver is "quite experienced"

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gjYumfDdOuE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gjYumfDdOuE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

And at about the 50 second mark
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4wyo9VkwZsg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4wyo9VkwZsg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

According to the book, for the IO520 powered 300 hp C185 at MTOW:

Takeoff Distance: 1,025 ft or 312 m
Landing Distance: 480 ft or 146 m

Its one of those aircraft that you can reasonably easily get into places that you can't get out off without messing up your underwear!

Dr :8

[saabsforever]

Forkie thats at MTOW. So with most of the stuff out of the aircraft about 150 metres is good for TO too so you can go home. For flat sea level strips around 250 metres is a practical minimum length with no obstacles. Thats with an old standard wing coming and going at around 50 kts lightly loaded. Real sharp blokes might do better with stol gear especially if they know the strip real well. Even then anyone talking under 200 metres has most likely had a few beers! Yes Chuck i think we should have a positive rate of climb so Kamina and Nadinumu are out.

[c100driver]

Sea Level, standard day nil wind.

220 meters is good for takeoff with 4 onboard plus gear on a 300 HP C185 in a pair of good hands, add another 30 for fudge factor or not being current. So if you can bank on 300 to 400 meters in the same conditions as a good workable airstrip for both the C180 and C185. (they take off and land in similar distance but the C185 will climb out better, with a larger load)

Landing is where the skill level really meets the road, and is very dependent on braking effect (or hill slope as in PNG and NZ).

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yes Chuck i think we should have a positive rate of climb so Kamina and Nadinumu are out.

Thats not fair:{

:E
:ok:

[Oakape]

Thanks for the replies.

Has anyone got an opinion on which is the better strip machine - the 185 or the 180?

[Stationair8]

Nothing like a IO-520 screaming away at full power.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Has anyone got an opinion on which is the better strip machine - the 185 or the 180?

This could be interesting!

The ONLY people who will tell you that the C180 is better aeroplane - are those who have never flown a C185!

Dr :8

[c100driver]

As in all of aviation, it depends!

Commercial operation:
The C185 is a far better machine out of air strips, for getting in the early model C180 is better but you would have to do two loads instead of one, so again for a commercial operation the C185 is better.

Private operations:
Again it depends on what sort of flying you want. Five mates on a hunting trip and you are talking C185 again. However for strips at lower altitudes a lot depends on which year C180 one is talking about. The early models (pre 1961) are very different to the late model C180. If you have a late model C180 you can think of it as a 230HP C185, because that is how it performs, which explains why all the engine power upgrades are available on the C180.

Summary: They are both similar on strips, at MAUW they use similar t/o and landing "ground" distance but the C185 climbs better after takeoff. The C180 may have to do two loads to carry the same payload as a C185. However the C185 and late model C180 fly like a truck compaired to the '53 to '57 C180.

[ZEEBEE]

The ONLY people who will tell you that the C180 is better aeroplane - are those who have never flown a C185!


That's a bit of a sweeping statement there FTD, wouldn't you say ???

"better aeroplane" means different things to different people.

For instance, in PNG the 185 is a better aeroplane than your Bo...so would you say the 185 is a better aircraft than a Bonanza ?

Some would still say "yes" , but then, like you said, "This could get interesting" :E

I've certainly flown both and I would say that the 180 is a "nicer" aircraft than the 185, but not necessarily as capable.

We have one chap in our club who has a 180 with an IO550 attached that will walk away from any 185 around. (but then it's not a real 180)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

ZeeBee, sweeping statements and a very black and white view of the world are my forté!


While I would agree that the early 180s are "nicer" to fly, I did say better - not nicer! In this context nice is for loøsers ("Bugger"!) ! :E

For instance, in PNG the 185 is a better aeroplane than your Bo...so would you say the 185 is a better aircraft than a Bonanza ?

Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh - wash your mouth out with soap!


Dr :8

[j3pipercub]

loosers!

Thanks Doc, that made my day!

j3

[Chimbu chuckles]

C100 driver has it - if you want a grunty private taildragger for you and girlfriend/wife/other to fool around in buy a late 50s C180 - you want to haul big loads out of dumb places, or want to go hunting/fishing with a couple of mates and a shedload of gear at high DAs/on floats, buy a C185.

Zeebee - A C180/185 is the best aircraft in the world in NZ. A Bonanza is the best aircraft in the world in Oz.:ok:

I saw that 182->180/IO550 conversion at Makarora last year and chatted over MANY beers with its proud owner about the hassle etc in achieving the result - VERY nice machine:ok:

[rwy01]

Just a quick question is that CWH if so where is it now ???

[185skywagon]

Just a quick question is that CWH if so where is it now ???

CWH lives with me at YBCV. We are off to Hughenden/Richmond for 2 weeks, this arvo.

Still in Hempel colours and Ag-carryall scheme. Will change colours one day soon.


185.

[ZEEBEE]

ZeeBee, sweeping statements and a very black and white view of the world are my forté!

Ahhhh! I got it.... That explains no doubt, why you like Bonanza's :}

Yes mods, hat and coat are ready....

[Oakape]

Does any one have a photo of CKT (or CKP) in the original red & white colour scheme they had when they were first with Mount Cook Airlines?

[Jabawocky]

OK...here is one from the resident PPRuNe C185 guru.....short strip their bloke!

Nice video quality......wht is the new equipment?

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZlZPX6T2kVg&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZlZPX6T2kVg&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Tankengine]

Anyone ever put the wheels in the correct place on a Caravan?:confused:
That might be a good ship!:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Nice video quality......wht is the new equipment?

Looks to me like a ForkMount in action!

ForkMount Mk3 is currently under development - should be ready for field testing next week!

Dr :8

[185skywagon]

Here is another using the patented "Fork Mount tm"
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/prE28SfjcnQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/prE28SfjcnQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[D-J]

Whilst we're here, does anyone one know of a c180/185 that maybe available for hire around Auckland / Ardmore?

[c100driver]

You could try Phil with ZK-CAS (C180) he may lease it, and has been known to in the past.

[Wanderin_dave]

After years of reading about C180/185s i finally got my hands on a C180 yesterday. Even found a couple of hill side ag strips to play PNG driver on.....without the weather/loads/DA/locals of course.

Was every bit as good as i'd hoped. Great machine and exactly what flying is about!

A greased 3 pointer onto a seriously uphill strip and later a couple of nice wheelers still bring a great big smile to my face. :ok: We won't mention the swinging and bouncing of earlier in the day though...... :bored:

All i can think now is ''give me more hours - i want to try this, i want to try that''

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k46/wanderin_dave/P8140216.jpg

[BlueSkies63]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj286/Grothy1/185satplay640x480.jpg
In reply to an earlier post I think the other jump aircraft in this picture is VH-DJU possibly being flown by then owner Bill McVinish.

The aircraft was repainted all black in the mid-eighties.

A search in google suggests that the aircraft is no longer registered as VH-DJU now belongs to a newer aircraft.

Blue Skies

[185skywagon]

DJU went to NZ.
RGO SERIAL SHORTSERIAL MVT date OWNER ADDRESS Field10 Field11
DJU 1850677 50677 ATR 20/03/1964 Montfort Catholic Mission DaruPNG Ex N2677Z
DJU 1850677 50677 CO STOL Air Services Pty Ltd PO Box 264 Port MoresbyPNG
DJU 1850677 50677 CO 1/06/1968 STOL Commuters Pty Ltd PO Box 1213 BorokoPNG
DJU 1850677 50677 CO 16/09/1970 W.T. Appleton
DJU 1850677 50677 CO 25/11/1974 K.D. Hohenhaus 25 Reddy St, Leichhardt IpswichQLD
DJU 1850677 50677 CO 9/10/1978 A.A. McVinish
DJU 1850677 50677 CO 27/02/1980 W.J. McVinish
DJU 1850677 50677 COA 6/06/1983 W.J. McVinish
DJU 1850677 50677 CO 26/04/1988 B.P. Shadler
DJU 1850677 50677 COA 23/08/1991 B.P. Shadler
DJU 1850677 50677 COA 2/03/1992 B.P. Shadler
DJU 1850677 50677 CO 21/07/1993 J.H. Stephenson PO Box 65 WhitiangaNZ
DJU 1850677 50677 SOR 28/07/1993 Exported to New Zealand as ZK-JHS

[noperf]

Re: poteroo's reply to WIZZ post 100

As I read your post the light went off. I owned a C-120 which was O-200 powered and had a Scott 3200 tail wheel no flaps of course and 8.50X6 tires. A real hodge podge to say the least. I could never three point comfortably and couldn't figure out why until you mentioned the flat attitude with a Scott tail wheel. In order to land with the tail high enough the speed was to much. To much speed, especially on asphalt or concrete, with the big tires was to frightening. On grass, gravel, sand, etc and short distances the speed was very low but the tail was too. It didn't seem to matter on skis.

[frothy]

BS63
Your right, it's DJU and DGL and that photo was taken at Corowa. I can't remember the year, it would have been late '70s I think. Haven't got my log book handy. I'm in DGL. I think that was the year we put up a formation with I think it was 7-8 C180s and 185s. I've got a photo somewhere, it's a bit small taken from the ground.

Corkey
Great photo, looks pretty shmick, bloody sure I wouldn't let a Jumper near it now

Frothy

[Oakape]

DJU
Still going strong...

Look at the smile on his face!

[poteroo]

Wow - a lot different DJU to the battered machine I flew with STOL between 1966 and 1968. If I remember rightly it had a vernier lock throttle which took a little time to adjust to. It was the best of the bunch at STOL - but that's hardly a great recommendation. Pleased to see it's got a good home.

happy days,

[major_tom]

anyone know places around Victoria that train in 180/185 's?

[tinpis]

vernier lock throttle Wassat old fella ? Like a prop control?

[Wanderin_dave]

Major Tom - Try Latrobe Valley Aero Club. That's who I borrowed DFO from. Thumbs up for Gerrard Lappin as an insructor also.

[major_tom]

cheers dave, i saw DFO a while back when i was flying around the area. Thought it was privately owned though :S Anyway thanks, ill look into it :)

[poteroo]

G'day tinpis

Yes, same as, and because it's longer...hard to get a grip so that your fingers can touch the panel, while keeping the lock depressed with your hand.

If I remember rightly, DJU also had a tailwheel locking device.....or did it?? A long time ago. The Bishop of Daru must have ordered a few optional extras??

happy days,

[tinpis]

poterro

I've come across the tail locks but never seen the vernier throttle
What kind of madness was that?
The best throttle was for me the little nautical jobby in the Porter
I nearly got a start in 1970 with STOL but hiring was in in limbo as Patair were buying them.

[Air Tourer]

Re the vernier throttle, which may have been the only knob available one day, one ag-180 had a large round "house" door knob on the pass. side (which said door came off in flight once), and another had a Piper style trim wheel on the roof.

When the super stopped flowing past the tail plane it goes nose heavy . . just when you want a tight turn, so a fast trim was handy.

[zac21]

I think a couple of (185's) I flew had vernier throttle controls, but you had to have your thumb or the palm of your hand palm on the button to be able to change the power in a hurry. (BVJ and WAV from memory were 2 of them)

ZAC

[tinpis]

The roof trim was a common kiwi addition Matter of fact I dont think you could have done without it cramped in with the hopper.

[Gabilane]

Since you like the pics of the SkyWaggons, here is a pic of my C-180:

http://http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/gabilane/Vicki.jpg?t=1282693285

[metalman2]

I was doing laps in KVW at YHBA only two days ago, they are one of the coolest airplanes I've flown, can't wait to put more hours in the old girl!

[Jabawocky]

Shouldnt you be pounding rivets instead Matt?:)

[Dances With Dingoes]

Just been reading about 182 conversions. The 182D seems to have the extra window like a 185. Can anyone tell me if they are the same airframe and if the conversion is possible on the D model?

[185skywagon]

DWD
I have heard of it being done. Try Paul Mitrega at inverell. He has converted a fair few 182's to 180's.

The 182D shares the "same" airframe with the 180G.
The 182D has the swept tail though.

On another matter, I have just put the IO-550D 300hp in my 185.
This replaces the IO-520D 300hp for t/o and 285hp continuous.

Goes damned well. 145-150 ktias at 4000 25"/2300rpm.
Trues out to around 150-155 KTAS for 68-72LPH.

Take off roll is reduced slightly and the climb rate is improved.

It's going to be hard to keep slow for any survey work.

185.