Ainsworth says Afghanistan is "winnable"

[Rigger1]

Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth says the conflict in Afghanistan is "winnable". (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8204574.stm)

It seems that the majortity of the British public don't think so from most of the comments on the BBC have your say site and from what I hear discussed at the many military venues I vistit, most serving people think it is unwinable.......Discuss.

[CounterSunk]

I watched him being interviewd by Huw Edwards yesterday morning. My immediate impression was of a man who seems totally uncommitted, to the point of actually lacking an appreciation of the significance and enormity of the post he fills.

So he also feels the campaign is 'winnable', well he responded to Gen Sir David Richards statement that we are in for a long haul with; Quote "Look, the notion that we are going to be in Afghanistan for 30 to 40 years in anything like the form that we are now is ludicrous" Unquote. In fact Gen Richards said the "nation-building" could take 40 years, at no point did he say 30 or 40 years warfighting.

No wonder that this weasel has so little support.

[Mackay]

In my opinion it seems the only information we get through news agencies from Afghanistan is the news of repatriating soldiers, and I would be surprised if this didn't give the general public a one-sided view about this conflict. Obviously if the news doesn't report any progress of any kind.

What annoys me is the media (I'm not sure if it's intentional) ignoring projects being undertaken in Afghanistan in order to improve conditions, building schools etc.

The quote below is from the Arbroath Herald: MARINES' PART IN AFGHANISTAN'S REGENERATION - Arbroath Today (http://www.arbroathherald.co.uk/features/MARINES39-PART-IN-AFGHANISTAN39S-REGENERATION.4857895.jp)

Much of the practical day-to-day activity for the elements of 45 Commando based in Sangin is to patrol daily into the town, which is now a thriving hub of activity and commerce in comparison to how it was only 18 months ago.

Evidence of the continued economic growth and stability can be seen from the current projects such as the refurbishment of the primary school and the building of a new secondary school

I personally believe that if you keep up this kind of effort then this conflict is definitely winnable. Balancing the Hearts and Minds aspect with the need to actually combat the Taleban.

In fact Gen Richards said the "nation-building" could take 40 years, at no point did he say 30 or 40 years warfighting.

This sounds like it could be very similar to the UNMIK (UN Mission in Kosovo), not keeping a military presence as such but more of an oversight for elections and development. In which case it certainly seems likely. (I do know the comparison of Kosovo and Afghanistan isn't the best :ok:)

[Dengue_Dude]

Just like Northern Ireland secretary, I think Defence Minister is a bit of a poison chalice.

Afghanistan winnable? - Study your history my friend, and count the victors of the past (you won't need too many fingers).

[Avitor]

Our military have good reason to be there, they have been ordered so.

Our politicians have no good reason to subject our military to the hopeless task they have been given.

Get them out, forthwith.

[Data-Lynx]

Paul Flynn MP (Lab) has just been on BBC News. In his blog (http://paulflynnmp.typepad.com/), he wrote: Politicians are in denial and refuse to confront the deep futility of the war in Afghanistan. It's more comfortable to tilt at the windmills of peripheral issues. Last year fellow European countries were howled at for dodging their share of the burden. Now, it's the myth that more troops and helicopters are solutions.

The media serve up delusional pap from embedded journalists. The key issues are ugly truths on Karzai's corruption, evil human rights record and the atrocities of his police and army. Politicians blaming foreigners or each other are on comfortable ground. It’s easier than thinking.

Clinging to myths is a deadly distraction. Afghans say that 'Truth is like the sun. When it rises it is impossible to hide it'. It will be some time before truth dawns in our Parliament.

So how does "the majority of the British public" gather its viewpoint? I'd find 'Truth' and the 'Sun' difficult but there can be relatively straight reporting, such as the Press Association: 204 UK troops killed in Afghan war (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gb-cMwhEEWZcfJOUW8eAY04YW-SQ). The Telegraph swings between reporting the Andrew Marr interview (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6039189/Bob-Ainsworth-troops-will-be-out-of-Afghanisan-in-a-year-or-so.html)and a stinging extract from an Army magazine (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/5587822/British-Army-officer-launches-stinging-attack-on-failing-UK-strategy-in-Afghanistan.html).

Does the Mirror's Paul Routledge offer any insight? The Tories gulped when the Army's new chief promised four more decades of campaigning in Afghanistan, saying it is "unaffordable" and "a non-runner". But even they hadn't the gumption to tell the gung-ho general what he should hear.

I have. Shut up, keep your military advice to the proper channels and do as you're told by the people we elect to run the country.
OK, perhaps not so try Jason Beattie (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/17/progress-next-year-in-afghan-war-zone-115875-21602191/).

For me, any UK exit strategy must be grounded in an Afghan state that is trusted by its people to provide economic and physical security. Afghan elections start the 1st round (http://www.electionguide.org/election.php?ID=1175)on 20 Aug 09. These elections have to be credible, supported and must not be disrupted by Taleban violence. Signs aren't great but the coalition has to prevail, noting that the process could follow-on into late September with the attendant dangers to civil and military alike.

The MP for Newport West might match Karzai with the Afghan proverb "It’s the same donkey, but with a new saddle." I'd leave the choice to the Afghans and another proverb: "There is a path to the top of even the highest mountain."

[Argonautical]

I am always a bit surprised that no mention is ever made of enemy dead. Is this political correctness or what? It wouldn't be giving away too much if the Army would give out statements simply saying that over the past week, in the operational area, XX Taliban were killed.

[Flarkey]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01462/200808-ainsworth_1462944c.jpg

[enginesuck]

Snearing arse ! do you thing he knows the Herc behind him is not a E'llicopter ?

[Wader2]

I am always a bit surprised that no mention is ever made of enemy dead. Is this political correctness or what?

No, it is a hard lesson learnt from Vietnam. The Vietnam war eventually became a war of body counts. We have killed more of them than they have of us so we are winning.

Or, as Ed Macy said in Apache, we are not in to 'Kill TV'.

As for balanced reportage, we get news from our press releases and embeds, we get precious little news of the other nations except where it serves a propaganda purpose - "Soldiers of Country X don't fight and get 2 cans of beer per day whereas our gallant lads . . . "

I read an English language newspaper in Copenhagen a little while back, quite illuminating. While they pulled out of active operations they still left a significant number of troops in harms way in a support role.

[A2QFI]

It is widely reported today that the Afghan Government have passed a law making it legal for a man to starve his wife if she refuses to have s*x with him. Is this any governement that we should be expending British lives and money to "Support"? I think not!

[Capetonian]

Define 'winnable'.

What exactly is the potential gain?

[Grabbers]

Here's the bbc link : BBC NEWS | South Asia | Row over Afghan wife-starving law (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8204207.stm)

[Mackay]

It is widely reported today that the Afghan Government have passed a law making it legal for a man to starve his wife if she refuses to have s*x with him. Is this any governement that we should be expending British lives and money to "Support"? I think not!

I entirely agree with you, but Mr Karzai believes this was necessary to gain hardline support ahead of the elections. In my opinion he shouldn't be begging for their support, but obviously thats not the case. They claim its a watered down version of the bill that was withdrawn a few months ago, but to me it certainly seems pretty horific by our standards.

The americans have appeared to kept pretty quiet about this, possibly because they support the leadership of Karzai and would give him a concession to ensure he stays in power. Got to love american foreign policy!!!

[Avitor]

Snearing arse ! do you thing he knows the Herc behind him is not a E'llicopter ?

If you are running a bad venture and you happen to be a nutter, you don't put someone in charge of it who might tell you that you are wrong.... Hello Bob! :ok:

[Data-Lynx]

A viewpoint from Michael Yon (http://www.michaelyon-online.com/michael-s-dispatches/)

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/images/stories/koppetchells/3150-fertilizer28zCYY-730YY.jpg
For Political Outer Offices who apparently search PPRuNe for their bosses:The roads are so littered with enemy bombs that nearly all transport and resupply to this base occurs by helicopter. The pilots roar through the darkness, swoop into small bases nestled in the saddle of enemy territory, and quickly rumble off into the night.

A witness must spend only a short time in the darkness to know we are at war. Flares arc into the night, or mortar illumination rounds drift and swing under parachutes, orange and eerily in the distance, casting long, flickering but sharply defined shadows. The worst that can happen is that you will be caught in an open field, covered by nothing and concealed only by darkness, when the illumination suddenly bathes you in light. Best is to stay low and freeze and prepare to fire, or in the case of a writer, to stay low and freeze and prepare to watch the firing.
Thanks ORAC

[NutLoose]

MackayIn my opinion it seems the only information we get through news agencies from Afghanistan is the news of repatriating soldiers, and I would be surprised if this didn't give the general public a one-sided view about this conflict. Obviously if the news doesn't report any progress of any kind.

What annoys me is the media (I'm not sure if it's intentional) ignoring projects being undertaken in Afghanistan in order to improve conditions, building schools etc.

The quote below is from the Arbroath Herald: MARINES' PART IN AFGHANISTAN'S REGENERATION - Arbroath Today (http://www.arbroathherald.co.uk/features/MARINES39-PART-IN-AFGHANISTAN39S-REGENERATION.4857895.jp)

Quote:
Much of the practical day-to-day activity for the elements of 45 Commando based in Sangin is to patrol daily into the town, which is now a thriving hub of activity and commerce in comparison to how it was only 18 months ago.
Quote:
Evidence of the continued economic growth and stability can be seen from the current projects such as the refurbishment of the primary school and the building of a new secondary school
I personally believe that if you keep up this kind of effort then this conflict is definitely winnable. Balancing the Hearts and Minds aspect with the need to actually combat the Taleban.

Quote:
In fact Gen Richards said the "nation-building" could take 40 years, at no point did he say 30 or 40 years warfighting.
This sounds like it could be very similar to the UNMIK (UN Mission in Kosovo), not keeping a military presence as such but more of an oversight for elections and development. In which case it certainly seems likely. (I do know the comparison of Kosovo and Afghanistan isn't the best http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif)

That all well and good, but the minute you remove the said Marines from the area you will be back to square one faster than you can shout Taliban.....

No one wins in Afghanistan, ask the Russians......

Similar to the other idea I read as to why do we not buy simply buy the opium for the medical trade from the farmers and starve the Taliban of it's funding...... Simple, shortage on the street creates price hikes, more cash means you pay more for the stuff from the farmers than UK PLC which then means UK PLC would have to stump up more money and market forces and up we go in an ever increasing spiral.

[RileyDove]

QFI - Indeed it's beyond belief that we are supporting a country that has these ideas ! Is it really worth fighting for?

[The Old Fat One]

Just few weeks ago a Middle Eastern gentleman, well-versed in International Relations, said to me over a coffee...

"These people live to fight. While you are there they will fight you. When you go home they will fight each other."

Mans got a point.

[Avitor]

What constitues 'winning the Afghan war'? And what is the exit srtategy?

[Donna K Babbs]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01462/200808-ainsworth_1462944c.jpghttp://www.momentumpictures.co.uk/assets/stills/51st-state_Still.jpgWinnable my arse!

[cargosales]

I think we need a PPRuNe poll to establish exactly how we feel about the illustrious Bob Ainsworth..

I'd suggest the following categories:

a) Bob Ainsworth is a Muppet

b) Bob Ainsworth is a complete Muppet

c) Bob Ainsworth is a complete and utter Muppet

d) Bob Ainsworth is a fantastic bloke who really understands the intricacies of his Ministerial brief.

Any Mods fancy setting that up? Pleeeese!!

[Data-Lynx]

So that is the: Most Useless Person Politics Ever Tolerated?

[Wader2]

why do we not buy simply buy the opium for the medical trade from the farmers and starve the Taliban of it's funding.......

This would not work. You would effectively cut out the middle man and the Taliba could simply take the money direct from the farmer - guaranteed sales, no shipping costs and no marketting.

[airborne_artist]

Cargosales wrote:

I think we need a PPRuNe poll to establish exactly how we feel about the illustrious Bob Ainsworth..

I'd suggest the following categories:

a) Bob Ainsworth is a Muppet

b) Bob Ainsworth is a complete Muppet

c) Bob Ainsworth is a complete and utter Muppet

d) Bob Ainsworth is a fantastic bloke who really understands the intricacies of his Ministerial brief.

Any Mods fancy setting that up? Pleeeese!!

Job done...

Vote in the Ainsworth poll here (http://www.poll4you.com/showpoll.php?id=20485&type=link) - vote early, vote often ...

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

As another C17 joins the circuit bringing back fallen comrades I sincerely hope this man develops a rare skin disorder there is no known cure for :ugh:

[BEagle]

Ainsworth says about Afghanistan 'wibble'...:\

[blaireau]

Fair comment for a union convenor at Jaguar Motors

[[email protected]]

Old fat One - it is a certain group of Middle Eastern 'gentlemen' who funded the madrassas in Northern Pakistan using oil money and provided, under the guise of education, the cannon fodder for the Taleban. Unfortunately we keep on doing business with them.

[Lyneham Lad]

The Daily Telegraph seems to agree...

Bumbling Bob Ainsworth (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidhughes/100006675/bumbling-bob-ainsworth-does-it-again/)

The majority of the responses to the article express similar views. How much longer can he be kept in post before it dawns on Broon that he has completely and utterly lost all credibilty? :ugh:

[Blighter Pilot]

Fighting a counter insurgency war in the enemy's homeland 1000's of miles from your own nation against a well trained, well equipped, fanatical enemy who has no regard for human life. Un-supported by a government who insist the conflict is winnable but refuses to support the front-line troops and give them the tools to take the fight to the enemy.

All this with the media focusing on the negative aspects of the war, public opinion fading and the sight of young men and women returning home, almost daily, in caskets. The forgotten hundreds of severely injured servicemen trying to rebuild their lives with little or no government assistance.

Didn't this happen in South East Asia in the 1960s and 70s ?

Afghanistan winnable? :mad:

[PPRuNe Pop]

Written by Sergeant Andy McFarlane, who is based at Camp Bastion in Afghanistan and serves with the Adjutant General's Corps, is on his second tour of Afghanistan in as many years.


The leviathan of the sky does land

In England's green and pleasant land.

Its cargo more precious than gold

The body of a hero, bold.

Once the giant's engines stopped

The cargo ramp is gently dropped

Carried by six on shoulders true

The hero is saluted by the crew.

The coffin draped in Union Jack

Is slowly carried out the back.

Out of the dark and into light

Slowly down the ramp and to the right.

The six approach the hearse all black

And place the hero gently in the back.

The six then turn and march away

Their duty has been done this day.

Politicians usually have much to say

No sign of them near here this day.

They hide away and out of danger,

Much easier if the hero is a stranger.

The hearse with its precious load

Moves slowly out on to the road.

The floral tributes line the route

While comrades snap a smart salute.

At the edge of a Wiltshire town

The cortege slows its pace right down.

The streets are packed, many deep,

Some throw flowers, most just weep.

The crowd have come to say farewell,

The church bell rings a low death knell.

Regimental standards are lowered down

As the hero passed through the town.

The cortege stops and silence reigns

The townsfolk feel the family's pain.

The nations' flag lowered to half mast

Our brave hero is home at last.


A most moving and wonderful tribute that will surely be remembered in years to come.

[Rigger1]

There’s that dust in my eyes again.

[Lyneham Lad]

There’s that dust in my eyes again.

...and in mine this afternoon.

http://www.kdmercer.com/BlackWhite/IMG_0121crop_v1_800BW.jpg

As on previous occasions, emotions ran high this afternoon and as the Church bells sounded, flags were dipped and many tears were shed. How many more of these corteges will pass down our High Street?

[F14]

Very sad, Afghanistan is unwinnable, I wonder how many more of our brave soldiers will come back with injuries on in coffins?

Obama needs to win something to get a second term, therefore the Brown government had to back him up.

Interesting pictures on the link of events during the USSR's adventures in Afghanistan.


English Russia The War in Afghanistan (http://englishrussia.com/?p=1778)

Looks very familiar

[knocker88]

I'm sick to the back teeth risking my life for that poo poo hole. Bobby needs to go to the front line and see warfare for himself! Perhaps take a ride in snatch rover? Tool around on a Chinny during an IRT? Fly about Helmund in a Sea King? The man is a joke, just like the "men" before him. But who is better? It seems to me being the Minister for Armed Forces is a poison chalice that is a backward step in the Labour Party?

When the rich wage war - it's normally the poor that die!

It just really pi@@es me off when comments like that are thrown around - is he going on Military advice? Or what he generally believes? If the top brass are telling him its winnable than they need removing from post!

[Rigger1]

As on previous occasions, emotions ran high this afternoon and as the Church bells sounded, flags were dipped and many tears were shed. How many more of these corteges will pass down our High Street?


Far far too many. For everyone who is out there, has been out there or is preparing to go, you have my upmost respect.

As soon as I can I’m off to Wootton Bassett, I won't know the brave sole, but it's something I feel I must do.

[EnigmAviation]

The more I read, the more angry I become when I see the inevitable consequence of fighting this absolutely stupid and un-winnable war. Whilst the mission creep continues, the politicians tell the public that it will take time, and we need to convert a poverty stricken correupt regime into a modern democracy. The top military - e.g., Sir Richard "Dammit" sound more and more like some of the WW1 military leaders - I don't quite know who is worse and who is misleading who.

I have more chance of winning the lottery and I don't buy a ticket, than there is of turning round this hopeless basket case of a nation, riddled by corruption, centuries to go in terms of civilisation as we know it, and where successive battles have all been lost to the lawless and corrupt native forces in a very difficult and challenging theatre of war, and where the enemy do not wear an identifying uniform.

As for needing to fight this remote war to prevent it coming to the streets of Britain - how about the theory that if we kept our sticky little noses out of irrelevant peices of remote real estate , then perhaps the terrorists would not be that interested in coming to UK to fight back? I don't see too many terrorists wishing to enter Switzerland to become muslim terrorists !!

The huge costs and grief inflicted on our now sadly depleted armed forces and theiur highly supportive families is overwhelming, and I salute their bravery when fighting such a pointless and unwinnable war. Today's territorial gains are merely tomorrow's Taliban recovery areas - we have neither the men nor equipment to make long term holds and even longer term civilianisation and democracy conversions.

Last but not least, in times where the Bankers have almost bankrupted UK Ltd., we could well spend the £?Bn in either reducing national debt, or supporting other worthwhile UK causes - e.g., Hospitals.

Finally we could also impose better UK immigration security, and combine this with instant repatriation without appeals, - after all, if anyone doesn't like our traditions, religions and customs, schools and other cultural heritage, then it's not for them clearly, and they should be rapidly assisted to vacate UK Ltd.,

Meantime, all my warmest congratulations to all HM Forces out there, doing a splendid job under almost impossible conditions and without the necessary level of equipment support, and "minded" by ministers who haven't got the first idea of what it's like.

:ok:

[flash8]

A Selection of the great British Publics impression of Browns 4th Choice for the job that ranks #23 in Cabinet:


"He looks to me what he is: an over promoted City Councillor with a Hitler moustache."

"Ainsworth himself seems more suited to be a manager of a High Street Pound Shop or perhaps Rumbelows where his talents would no doubt be appreciated."

"What do you expect of the man. He was only a shop steward at Jaguar, and he wasn’t a lot of good at that. How on earth he managed to con so many in Coventry that he could be anything other than a shop steward, Lord knows."

“but is so far out of his depth it’s a national embarrassment.”

"Bob ‘The ****’ Ainsworth was, or is a Trotskyist lamebrain, who called for victory for the IRA amongst his more ludicrous posturing."


Succinctly put I think.

Christ... even Buffoon was better.

[RileyDove]

Maybe it's time that paliament reviewed the post of defence minister and decided on it being an elected member but from any of the parties who would be voted into position. We have wasted so much time with people who are clearly out of their depth - have vested interests and too little time to carry out anything meaningful.

[cargosales]

A Selection of the great British Publics impression of Browns 4th Choice for the job that ranks #23 in Cabinet:


In Comrade Brown's Cabinet that is. And which perfectly sums up our glorious leader's feelings towards our armed forces. :yuk:

[minigundiplomat]

I'm wrestling with a conundrum.

We are in Afghanistan to make Britain safer, by denying the terrorists a safe haven, according to the PM.

Whilst we are doing that, what is happening in:

Pakistan
Somalia
Chechnya
Yemen

All of the above don't seem to be under any real government control, and are effectively ungoverned spaces in which terrorists can train at will.

You could also add:

Saudi Arabia (Funding)
Algeria
Syria
The mountains of several 'Stans'
Indonesia
Egypt
Lebanon

And I don't really buy this Home Office claptrap about 90% or so terror attacks originating in Afghanistan. They are more likely to originate in Pakistan, a country we keep talking about, but effectively leaving alone (apart from an occasional UAV strike).

I don't have a problem with Mr Broon marching everyone up the hill (as long as they are properly equipped), but the reasons for this campaign have always been hazy, and this 'denying terrorists a safe haven' nonsense doesnt stack up.

Im sure an organisation like Al Qaeda is navigating an airline website and booking seats on an Islamabad-Mogadishu flight.

I seem to remember the 7/7 bombers booked themselves on a teambuilding weekend in Wales. We havent invaded the Brecon Beacons.

The reasons change everytime, in order to make it palatable to the UK population, who quite rightly question the aims of the mission.

All this nation building, drug eradication nonsense and denying safe havens is utter rubbish.

Why not be honest. We are members of NATO, and following 9/11, the US asked for our help under Article 5 of the treaty. We are obliged to assist them following an attack.

This may not be easy to sell to the UK public, but it is the only fact in this whole matter. The rest seems to have been developed to fit the mood.

I still don't really have an opinion either way, I just do what I get paid to do. I just think a little more honesty is required.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

minigundiplomat, I do believe you are right, although I’m not sure how Egypt fits into your “other players” list. It does annoy me that the British public seem to be considered too stupid to be given the truth. I sometimes suspect that the Government has little grasp of what the truth is.

As I see it, we have fulfilled Art 5 of the NATO Treaty (which was never drafted to deal with aggression from other than Nation States) and the prime objective now is to mend that which we broke in the process. When Al Q’s C3 facilities were taken out in what can be considered to be the second phase of the “war”, it was the same facilities used by Afghanistan for the pursuit of normal Civil life. For the ordinary Afghan, we significantly sodded up their electricity, gas, water and some key elements of their transport system. Those are the elements that we should be restoring to a level fit for civilised life. That restoration hasn’t happened, though, largely because it’s been hindered by local dissidents and insurgents. We’ve created a magnet for any fanatic who want’s have go at the West. Surely even your average Big Brother viewer can understand the concept of mending what we broke? I wouldn’t, on the other hand, expect them to grasp the importance of not pulling out from an unfinished job and the message that would send to every likely enemy on the planet.

What was that old lesson that many of us were taught? You cannot have split Objectives? Well we have acquired split objectives. Particularly in the US, elements of government seem to have a firm belief that it is a “war” against terror being fought off homeland soil. Also, while we’re there in force, a moral crusade of clearing out the Aghan grown poppy drugs trade has been commissioned. The rational argument being that drug money is funding the agressors.. Regrettably, it is also providing a living for ordinary Afghans.

When our Government has worked out what the truth is, perhaps they would have the grace to tell us.

[NoPoleNoVote]

Instant response to Bob Ainsworth's announcement on TV
"We can't win. I mean we have better weapons and can shoot better, but they are never going to run out of soldiers"

That's from my nephew, aged 9.

ps minigundiplomat, unless military training has changed a lot, I think you'll find we invade the Brecon Beacons almost daily. I've done it 3 times myself!

[knocker88]

I invaded Brecon the other week - couldn't find any AQ or Taleban. However if we invaded London I'm sure we would find quite a lot of naughty boys and girls hell bent on killing British lives.

[Data-Lynx]

The SoS might try a logistic view. This Combat Log Patrol (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/PictureViewers/Gallery8kmConvoyResuppliesTroopsInHelmand.htm)measures just under 8km which, with stops and starts makes it an interesting challenge just for air cover.

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/138CE3FE-0868-4BCD-940C-06772CBAAC97/0/HQUKTF20090720044.jpg

[14greens]

Avitar hit the nail on the head!!

Has the "end game" been stated?
What is actually trying to be achieved to reach a state of "Winning"?

To win! you have to have a goal and an end, at the moment that seems to be lacking

[Sun Who]

My humble take on Afghanistan through the (slightly blurred) lens of British Mil Doctrine:

Selection and Maintenance of the Aim
A single, unambiguous aim is the keystone of successful military operations. Selection and maintenance of the aim is regarded as the master principle of war.

As regards Afghanistan, has the aim been identified and is effort being consistently driven towards its maintenance, divested of (undue) political interference?

Maintenance of Morale
Morale is a positive state of mind derived from inspired political and military leadership, a shared sense of purpose and values, well-being, perceptions of worth and group cohesion.

How long can this be maintained? I've read some grim assessreps lately.

Offensive Action
Offensive action is the practical way in which a commander seeks to gain advantage, sustain momentum and seize the initiative.

IEDs/IDF hamper our ability to maintain offensive momentum. This fact, terrain and the (legitimate and proper) need to stay within ROE restrict our ability to seize the initiative. We are (for some powerful reasons) more reactive than we would like.

Security
Security is the provision and maintenance of an operating environment that affords the necessary freedom of action, when and where required, to achieve objectives.

See comments above re: IEDs/terrain and add the fact that to a large extent we are fighting amongst the people. The security situation is poor.

Surprise
Surprise is the consequence of shock and confusion induced by the deliberate or incidental introduction of the unexpected.

I'm not in a position to comment on the extent to which we achieve surprise. I am aware of some instances in which it's being achieved by Reaper.

Concentration of Force
Concentration of force involves the decisive, synchronized application of superior fighting power (conceptual, physical, and moral) to realize intended effects, when and where required.

We do this and do it well. Are we able to do it over long enough periods?

Economy of Effort
Economy of effort is the judicious exploitation of manpower, materiel and time in relation to the achievement of objectives.

We try to do this.

Flexibility
Flexibility – the ability to change readily to meet new circumstances – comprises agility, responsiveness, resilience, acuity and adaptability.

We do this well.

Cooperation
Cooperation entails the incorporation of teamwork and a sharing of dangers, burdens, risks and opportunities in every aspect of warfare.

We do this well.

Sustainability
To sustain a force is to generate the means by which its fighting power and freedom of action are maintained.

This is the killer. The 'Clauswitzian Trinity' - the relationship between politicians, military leadership and the electorate is under significant strain, as are the coffers. Victory requires cash, cash and more cash plus a committed population, military and political 'elite' (ha ha).

I've said before that I think Bob Ainsworth is out of his depth (and a dis-interested passer-by) but to what extent does he grasp the issues above?

Just my thoughts,

Sun.

[johnfairr]

Sun Who, thank you for a succinct and understandable assesment of the situation. Would that our ministers have read this and acted upon it. :{:{

[barnstormer1968]

ALL conflicts are winnable, that's the nature of them. I thought the real trick was to be on the winning side though.

So, although Bob said the conflict is winnable, did he mention which side he thinks will do it? He has probably been briefed that one of the sides has ever increasing recruits, more and more gear, and are determined to win, but that they lack ellicopters!

Maybe he did nor hear the part where they talked about the coalition forces, or maybe in true noo labour style, he is just going with the side that gets the most media coverage:}

[Modern Elmo]

I don't see too many terrorists wishing to enter Switzerland to become muslim terrorists !!

Swissland doesn't admit too many Muslim immigrants, unlike the EU provinces formerly known as UK.

[skua]

His perspicacity is shown by the fact that, along with the rest of the cabinet drones, he thinks that the next general election is "winnable" for ZNL. Nuff said.

[Sun Who]

There are very few places in Europe (I can't think of any) where muslim fundamentalism and associated 'terrorism' are not an issue. That includes switzerland:

In Neutral Switzerland, A Rising Radicalism - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/19/AR2006071901795.html)

Sun Who

(edited to remove a link)

[NRU74]

Sun Who

....aah..... SMOSSCEFCA

First time I've seen it written down since I did the 'B' Exam in 1967 [although I thought Surprise came before Security -no wonder I failed the first time]

[Guzlin Adnams]

I never listen to politicians any more. They're not worth my time. It's time to change our system of government. They're time has gone.

[ORAC]

Polish Gen. Quits Over Afghanistan Equipment Row
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE - 20 Aug 2009

WARSAW - A Polish army general who criticized Poland's defense ministry over refusing to purchase what he termed essential equipment for Polish troops in Afghanistan, resigned August 20

"I'm quitting the army because I have no other choice as a soldier," Gen. Waldemar Skrzypczak, 53, said in Warsaw. "I haven't changed my opinion, everything I've said was true," Ambrozinski added.

Skrzypczak attacked senior defense ministry officials after insurgents killed Polish army Capt. Daniel Ambrozinski in an ambush in the central Afghan province of Ghazni on August 10.

On August 17, the general told the Dziennik daily newspaper that defense ministry officials "knew war only from the movies" and could "dictate to the military" which weapons should be used in combat.

"It is shameful that we haven't given soldiers needed equipment," he said. "We've been fighting for equipment for over two years, but no one is listening to commanders. We're asking for arms but everything is drowning in procedures."

Poland's Defense Minister Bogdan Klich said Skrzypczak's comments were "unacceptable" and criticized him for questioning civilian control over the army. But Poland's Prime Minister Donald Tusk, during a visit to Afghanistan on Aug. 15, said there was "no doubt" the Polish troops there needed better equipment.

Poland has lost 10 soldiers in Afghanistan. It currently has a 2,000-strong contingent there, part of the 65,000-strong NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF).

[Jabba_TG12]

Good find ORAC. :D

If only we had a few at all like him, instead of the pension chasing, salute hogging onanists we've been saddled with for the last 20 years... Dannatt notably excepted. :rolleyes:

It seems to be a condition of high rank in public service these days that in order to succeed at the highest levels you have to be completely bereft of the type of leadership qualities that should be commensurate with the position... politics, the police, the military... none are immune. :sad: