Para Dropping & Pay in GA [Archive]

lk978

17th Aug 2009, 05:08

I can understand what both sides are trying to say

For a small local club operation that charges member enough to cover cost of A/C then they try and locate a pilot willing to give up a day or two every now and then, It is important to remember most of them are club members who jump as well trading off some slots for flying loads. I personally have no problem with this; I liken it to a gliding club. However there are some clubs that don’t distinguish the two areas of the operation.

I would suggest where these operations exist that you ask for a fee per tandem of which they are making money from. If they are just using you for your licence and you’re not a club member who jumps, I would find alternative ways of getting hours where you will learn something more valuable. Because all they see you as is an elevator operator.

The main problem is when it is a commercial business generating up to $900 revenue per load for a C182 and even more for the larger aircraft for a tandem operation. Now $20 - $25 for the pilot is not much to ask is it?

I have had this very same conversation many times and I explain it to operators like this. If you want your Commercial operation to be in the hands of a 200 hr pilot with no one to watch over them or teach them then go right ahead and pay them nothing because that will just result in poor standards and a lack of enthusiasm from the pilot.

If you want a professional bunch of pirates then it will cost (not allot by any means) but still the same you will have people that you can trust to operate your machine without all the jumpers looking over his or her shoulders telling them not to stall the plane, which is a growing trend with senior jumpers and junior pilot’s. One quote that :mad: me off is the mentality that they have sat in a plane for 5000 jumps that means they have 2500 hrs... give me a break. I have flown with some jumpers who have 5000 jumps and they go and learn to fly and dont fly like a 250 hr pilot, it comes back to time on the tools not watching better homes and gardens.

I would also like to point out to operators that there is a massive difference in flying a C182 and C208 or Twins. Not so much in the ease (Caravan wins hands down, way easier than the 182) of flying but the decisions that come with larger aircraft and especially if flying IFR. A concept skydivers dont seem to understand :ugh:.

I have flown for a commercial skydiving operation before and was paid well above the award. We had a number of pilots all with well over 1000 hours and 100 on type. 2 years and no incidents or U/S aircraft (got to love those cessna’s). We had a formal training system and it worked very well.

Also just remember some people fly 1000 hours and some people fly 1 hour a 1000 times hence why training is important in any organisation

Normal rates should be about:

$5-$10 per tandem depending on your experience
$15 - $30 per load depending on A/C size and if you are IFR (C182 – C208)

PlankBlender

17th Aug 2009, 05:13

lk978, great post! :D:ok:

SM227

17th Aug 2009, 06:36

I know where your coming from qldpilotguy, I too couldn't find a 'real job', after I exhausted my list, with not even a hint of me getting a job anywhere. I hadn't flown in months, and I was at the stage where I realised I need to take anything I can get, and for me, that break came when I contacted a small skydiving club. They would take me on but their would be no pay, but I didnt mind, how else was I going to get that 300-400 hours that all those places with 'real jobs' wanted, so I accepted.

Well, its great! They have a few older pilots that have a wealth of experience, and from them im learning heaps of things that are making me a better pilot, and some things that will probably save my skin one day! Im flying for a purpose, not flying around aimlessly in a rented plane just to get hours.
Most importantly, Im meeting people in the industry, and maybe one day soon, I might get a 'real job' with them. Skydivers are a great bunch of people, there friendly and have killer parties! so there is a great social side to it aswell.

Plankbender, I dont regret it, and I dont think im disadvantaging you at all. Im saving heaps of money by not paying for flying out of my own pocket, you call it selfish, I call it common sense. Some people just can't pay for flying forever, like you can. Im experiencing all these things that you are missing out on, and Im having a blast! I finally have a job in aviation, the dream has come true! and Im hoping its going to get even better soon when I get to fly a serviceable plane and get paid for it too!:p

So come on Planky, come on over to the dark side! :}

Rich-Fine-Green

17th Aug 2009, 06:52

Without getting into the low pay arguement........

Can a Jump Pilot actually get paid legally?.

The operation does not require an AOC and is not Charter or Aerial Work.

A PPL holder can operate the aircraft.

Does Jump Pilot pay constitute 'Hire or Reward'?.

Jamair

17th Aug 2009, 06:56

SM227 - you have missed the point by a wide margin....you DON'T have a 'job' (ie you are not getting paid). Your 'Industry contacts' - if they are any good at all, they will either avoid you like the plague when you come looking for work, or they will offer you sod-all because they have seen you working for nothing.

PlankBlender

17th Aug 2009, 07:07

SM227, I've got nothing whatsoever against flying in a club, trading jump costs with 'elevator operator' hours, that's a fair trade in a non-commercial environment just like in a gliding club. Economic/industry impact of such a trade is small, and you're right of course, experience and contacts gained are valuable. Nothing wrong with that.

What I am dead set against is supporting some unscrupulous businessmen who try to exploit low hour pilots by effectively increasing their own margins through paying low or no pilots' wages. That's unethical from a business point of view, selfish from the point of view of the pilot, and no pilot should be under the illusion that it's not looked down on by most peers as the wrong thing to do. It does have consequences beyond the own person by distorting supply and demand and thus prices and wages, and it's just not on!

If there is a commercial element involved, i.e. significant (above usual club fees) money changing hands for tandem and training jumps, the pilot deserves to be paid, make no mistake, if they're not effectively they're just donating their pay and some of their peers' pay to the operator!

Nothing to do with how much one can or cannot afford to pay for their own flying, really. :=

lk978

17th Aug 2009, 07:25

SM227 remember it is a pathway to the top of your career, not a race to the bottom.

Every pilot faces the same dilema at 200 hours who is going to employ me... but there has been many before you who have over come thisby not working for free.

It only takes 5 minutes to help that old guy with a baron push it back into the hanger who hates having to fly himself around these days.

or

Helping the chief pilot pissed off that he had to fly 4 hours today to refuel the 210 after you finish refueling your 152.

People dont hate you for wanting to get more epearience just dont be the guy who first fly's for free, pays for icus on a twin because who is going to employ you with no multi right? and what about paying for a Airbus endorsement because no airline will employ you without it....:}

lk978

17th Aug 2009, 07:29

I never got paid for flying... just turning up and looking really good, technically i paid for the aeroplane... turns out i am a very good looking man so i got paid allot about $25 more that what each load cost me for the plane:E

jaeiou

17th Aug 2009, 07:33

Ironic to think that there is currently some agitation among working skydivers to form a union in order to protect their own interests.

It's interesting to note the arguments of tandem masters and skydiving instructors posting in skydiving forums who maintain they are professionals trying to make a living, who point out they have invested a lot of $$$$ and time in their qualifications and deserve to be paid $50+ per jump. All valid arguments and not at all unreasonable, yet professional skydivers and operators often overlook the fact that the role of the pilot is integral to the BUSINESS and they think that hours in the logbook is just compensation for a pilot. Some jumpers and operators even think they are doing the pilot a favour. Imagine if a customer turned up and asked for the jump for nothing or at cost price! They'd be laughed off the drop zone. Even parachute packers on a drop zone earn $5-$10 for a 10 minute packing job.

In the worst-paid of other industries or professions, apprentices and graduates earn an entry level salary. It's never contemplated nor expected that someone would work for nothing, even if not fully qualified. Aviation should be no different.

To fly a skydiving aircraft safely and efficiently actually takes some skill. Pilots who choose to work for nothing devalue the skill required as well as screw others who NEED to make a buck to survive ahead of their need or want to fly.

There are very few traditional skydiving clubs left in Australia. Most drop zones are run as commercial businesses by professional operators. It's one thing to fly for nothing when it is just fun jumpers (licensed skydivers) covering the cost of the aircraft, but when an operator is taking their cut, charging customers top dollar or paying tandem masters $50 or more for a jump, the pilot simply must insist on being paid a fair wage. To pay the poor old pilot $50/load would not actually add too much to the customers' bills. Even $25/load over 6-10 loads per day would be reasonable compensation and not too far off the Award hourly rate.

If EVERYONE stuck together and refused to work for nothing, the operators would come to the party very quickly to stop their lucrative income stalling. If an operator cannot afford to pay the pilot and other staff they should either put their prices up or go out of business. After all, this is what we would expect a retailer, hotel, or any other business or service provider to do if they wanted to remain operating and retain staff.

It is simply immoral for the pilot and the operator to enter into a no-pay arrangement, unless it is strictly a club environment in which the pilot is also a member of the club and not flying as a career.

Aerozepplin

17th Aug 2009, 07:42

It stikes me as unfair to demand solidatity with other pilots to a new 250hr CPL. I don't think it's right for the most needy members of the community to refuse flying hours beacause someone with a regular paying gig think it's the "right thing to do".

I fully agree that it isn't right, that a pilot doing a job should be paid for it (unless it's in a club environment, ie. helping out non-profit gliders guys etc), but that there is always going to be new pilot's willing to do anything to get a few more hours (myself included). So despite the sacrafice of those others, nothing will change. It needs to be an organised collective change rather than guilting newbies into refusing such work.

When my training finishes and I most likely have to find a non-flying job I don't know how I'll be able to pay to keep current and raise my infant daughter. Something like that could safe my aviation dream.

Ultralights

17th Aug 2009, 08:09

its not really that hard, no need to prostitute yourself out for hours, i worked as an AME to pay for my training, built a successful courier business on the side, sold business to pay for commercial training and Instructor ratings, now work as an instructor at a well paying small school, most of my students have become friends, and still work part time as a AME..

never once worked for nothing. :ok:

i wont even give advice, hints or any explanations on flying subjects on internet forums, i worked hard, and invested my time and money in my training, i expect something in return for that investment.

lk978

17th Aug 2009, 08:53

"It stikes me as unfair to demand solidatity with other pilots to a new 250hr CPL. I don't think it's right for the most needy members of the community to refuse flying hours beacause someone with a regular paying gig think it's the "right thing to do"."

Aerozepplin This attitude is eactly what is wrong with the industry. The reason you are being offered the flyng is because someone far more qualified, more bars, bigger wings, larger flight bag with less **** in it, a newer set of ray-bans and better looking than you has said no... your just getting ahead in the race to the bottom.

Your aviation career will be fine without flying for free, just be patient and your turn will come. 9 years and 1500 hours.

KRviator

17th Aug 2009, 09:22

Now both sides have (vocally) had their say, I might as well chime in with my two bob. Which is about all my opinion is worth.:}

I don't work in aviation anymore, like the signature says, I now drive trains. The reason behind this is simple. Family and Money. I am not going to spend upwards of $50,000 to get to the minimum standard and have to fight with every other Tom, Dick and Harry to fly for a company in the middle of nowhere that won't pay the Award. Which in itself is pissweak at about $35,000. All the while hoping for that "elusive" twin job and a pay packet that means more than Maggi noodles for dinner.

Having said that, I do not begrudge anyone who offers to fly for free if no other alternatives are found. Especially locally. Like it or not, the GA pilots of Australia are not a cohesive bunch. Personally I don't think they'll ever be. That being the case, you need have no one elses' interests at heart other than yours and your families.

It is all well and good to say "But what about the next bloke?", well, he will have to manage for himself, just as you've had to. If that was really what was being considered, we wouldn't have operators willing to take blokes on for the hours only, nor operators that don't pay the GA Award - as the blokes that went before you should have made sure of it. But you do. So if that means flying for the hours only and taking a second job to pay the bills, so be it. Or he could do what I chose to. Stop pursuing a career in Commercial aviation for one that more than pays the bills and fly for fun, when I want, where I want, in my own aircraft.

Whatever the next bloke decides or has to do should be no concern of yours. That should be reserved for you and your family, lest you get to a stage where you don't have one.

I'll just don my flameproof suit now, and exit stage right.:ouch:

Aerozepplin

17th Aug 2009, 09:36

I don't think it's right at all that pilot's work for free for a commercial operation, but in the absence of a true union movement (at least in this country) there won't be any change.

I was a member of the Engineers, Printers, and Manufacturing Union in my previous job and saw the power that they had from their large membership. However I also saw how it was underminded in my factory by 50% of the workforce refusing to join.

My point was that there are always going to be people who take non-paying positions, and shaming people into not doing it doesn't seem fair to me. There needs to be an organised voice, not just anger.

Much as it pains me I have to agree with KRviator that your family comes first.

Clearedtoreenter

17th Aug 2009, 10:23

Not sure what all the fuss is about here.. Not paying for anything is not exactly a new phenomena in this industry for some operators (often because they don't have the dough to do so anyway!) Just market forces as usual. There are several places where they don't even pay instructors, never mind PPL's. The glut of new shiney G3's means they now have them queuing up, paying for their own check rides, renewals and all. And dont forget, the less they pay their 'employees', the cheaper it will become to learn to fly, parachute or whatever.... ;) (yes, in some places that's actually true!) These 'jobs' are not exactly 'careers' are they?

lk978

17th Aug 2009, 10:28

Clearedtoreenter you are an idiot, and very funny

jaeiou

17th Aug 2009, 11:17

Clearedtoreenter, the fuss is about operators effectively stealing from their employees (and both parties thinking it is alright) while those operators line their own pockets and in turn screw the industry and the rest of us as well.

A PPL should not be getting paid for flying but there are scores of low time CPL holders (and others) who need to make an honest living and get their professional career off the ground and who deserve to be paid for their skills and labour.

Yes, operators have a big investment that is not without risk and deserve to make a buck. I understand business and commercial considerations better than some and will always strive to improve the boss's bottom line, but if the margins are so tight that the pilot cannot be paid, the operator does not deserve to be in business. This is more about greed, exploitation and an archaic attitude. The skydiving customers are already paying top dollar and many would be appalled if they knew the conditions pilots work under.

It's fine for those who see GA as a stepping stone to the airlines, but makes it damn difficult for those of us who would be happy spending an entire career in GA. As someone else pointed out earlier, the willingness of pilots to work for nothing on the bottom rung only erodes the pay and conditions for those of us who've clawed our way up a rung or two. As pilots we only have our labour to sell. Let's put a value on it and not look at our own short term gain at the expense of everyone else. Things would change overnight if everyone stood firm together. The aircraft simply can't fly without the pilot.

Because there are people in various parts of GA willing to work for nothing or a mere pittance (or even pay for hours), and the operator knows it, there are experienced, older pilots out there right now with families and mortgages (I am one of them) being forced to work under some pretty ordinary conditions with the implied threat that if we won't do it, some young fella will.

It's time to get into the modern age and stop this acceptance of the lower end of GA being the shonky sweatshop that it is and nothing more than a right of passage. Everyone should consider themselves, and be treated as, professionals from Day 1.

QldPilotGuy

17th Aug 2009, 11:37

Not sure what the rest of the people on here think but Ik978 I really think that demeaning other peoples comments (which they have every right to voice seeing as this is a forum) is a pretty low act. Have some respect for others opinions.

Pretty sure its people like you who think they are always right that are the problem in the industry, not companies unable to pay there pilots.

disturbedone

17th Aug 2009, 12:03

RichFine-Green, you are exactly right. A pilot can not accept hire or reward to fly for a private operator. The place I used to drop for paid me as an aircraft caretaker (washing, overseeing maintenance, refuelling etc) and I flew "for free".

DH 200'

17th Aug 2009, 13:02

Thankfully with the soon to be introduced regs making skydive commercial ops, we'll get rid of these PPL flyers who have nothing better to do which in turn should raise the standard of flying a bit at least if nothing else
How true is this statement and when can we expect these new regs to come in effect?

GADRIVR

17th Aug 2009, 13:23

mmmm......perhaps I didn't make myself very clear so I'll repeat it....in the hope I make myself clear ...again.
If you are working for a meat bombing type....who runs a business and draws a profit from that business...then you my friend, whether you hold a ppl or cpl...are no better than a scab. Particulary if you are doing it for free or less than the award!!!
The business owner...you my friend are most certainly a piece of excrement!
Christ....what is so hard to understand??
Krviator and the rest...probably best you lot stay out of the industry. People like you ARE the problem.:*
I think I covered the causes of the problem in an earlier post relating to Aerospace Aviation

superdimona

17th Aug 2009, 16:09

I mowed my lawn the other day. Should I feel guilty for cheating the owner of the local lawnmowing musiness out of a job? After all, he did invest in the equipment (a decent ride-on and slasher) and he depends on mowing lawns to feed his family.

A sad fact is that somone is not entitled to a job just because they spent a ton of money, time and effort training for it. Supply and demand rules. Because so many people see flying as a "fun career" (and get told of impending pilot shortages by schools) we have more pilots then jobs. In our cruel capitalist society, that devalues the job, to the point where some fly for free to stay current - or simply because they enjoy it.

If you want to improve conditions for pilots, either

1) somehow convince people being a pilot isn't glamorous or exciting

or

2) somehow convince flight schools to train fewer pilots.

I can't see either of these happening

Okavango

17th Aug 2009, 18:14

Hi. Thanks all. Sounds like the new regs should be a step forward, does anyone have any info on what they'll involve, what will be required for para drops and when they'll be introduced?

D-J

17th Aug 2009, 22:47

How true is this statement and when can we expect these new regs to come in effect?
it comes from the APF's Area safety officer for NSW, there is also discussions within the APF / CASA requiring skydive ops to have an AOC which wasn't considered in the original plan for making PJE commercial ops. I'lll see if there has been a time line put on it yet.

Hi. Thanks all. Sounds like the new regs should be a step forward, does anyone have any info on what they'll involve, what will be required for para drops and when they'll be introduced?

The following is a draft of proposed new regs, might give some idea

Revocation
1 Instrument CASA 278/97 is revoked.

Application
2 This instrument applies to aircraft engaged in parachute training operations.

Direction
3 Aircraft engaged in parachute training operations must comply with the conditions set out in section 6.

Commencement
4.1 Subject to subsections 6.2 and 6.3, this instrument comes into effect on the day after registration.
4.2 Subsection 6.1 comes into effect 90 days after the registration of this instrument.
4.3 Subsections 6.2 and 6.3 come into effect on 1 March 2010.

Definitions
5 In this instrument:
APF means the Australian Parachuting Federation Inc.
APF Jump Pilot’s Handbook means a handbook issued by the APF, as approved by CASA from time to time, setting out rules and procedures for carrying out parachuting operations.
APF Jump Pilot’s rating means a certificate issued by the APF to certify that a pilot is trained and competent to carry out parachuting operations.
ATC means air traffic control.
ATC frequency means a radio frequency used by air traffic control.
controlled airspace(CTA) means airspace that is Class A, C, D, or E airspace or a GAAP Control Zone.
Chief Instructor means an instructor “A” approved by the APF in accordance with the APF Operations Regulations to supervise parachute training operations for a training organisation .
CTAF means a common traffic advisory frequency.
CTAF(R) area means an area within which radio carriage and use are required and in which aircraft use a CTAF.
drop aircraft means any aircraft engaged in the dropping of parachutists in parachute training operations.
drop zone means the area within which parachutists taking part in a parachute training operation are required to land.
training organisation means an APF member organisation authorised by the APF to conduct parachute training operations, including
student and novice training descents and tandem jumps.

General Conditions
6.1 A drop aircraft when dropping parachutists must be operated in accordance with the APF Jump Pilot’s Handbook.
6.2 A pilot in command of a drop aircraft must hold an APF Jump Pilot’s Certificate.
6.3 A drop aircraft that is not a Class A aircraft must be maintained as if it were a Class B charter aircraft and must have a current maintenance release issued in that category.
6.4 Applications for exemptions to carry fire extinguishes may be made for certain type aircraft i.e. C172, C182, C206
6.5 Any alteration of the APF Jump Pilot’s Handbook must be notified to CASA for acceptance.
6.6 If CASA does not accept the alteration, it must notify the APF.
[6.5 is necessary if CASA is to consider whether to accept or not.]

Supervision of parachute training operations
7.1 Parachute training operations must be conducted under the supervision of a Chief Instructor.
Supervision by Chief Instructor
O.R. 13.1.3 All training Descents must be made under the supervision of a Chief Instructor and conducted in accordance with an Approved Training Operations Manual.

Safe conduct of parachute operations
8.1 The pilot in command of a drop aircraft must take all reasonable measures to ensure that:
(a) parachutists exit the aircraft only if there is no risk of any part of the aircraft being fouled by parachutists or their equipment when they exit; and
(b) the operation does not impose any adverse stress on any part of the aircraft structure; and
(c) loose objects that if dropped could create a hazard to persons or property on ground or water are not carried by parachutists exiting the aircraft.

8.2 Except in accordance with a specification issued by CASA, the person in charge of the parachuting operation, the parachutist and the pilot in command of the aircraft must ensure that:
(a) a parachute descent is made in meteorological conditions in which the target is clearly visible; and
(b) that the parachutist does not enter cloud.

Equipment
9.1 A drop aircraft must be equipped with:
(a) 2 VHF radio transceivers.; or
(b) if operating in Class G airspace, 1 VHF radio transceiver.
9.2 The radio transceivers or transceiver must be used to make broadcasts in accordance with this approval.

Radio procedures
10.1 Subject to subsection 10.4, a broadcast advising the intention to drop parachutists must be made from the drop aircraft not less than 2 minutes before the parachutists exit the aircraft.
10.2 A broadcast under subsection 10.1 must be made on all relevant frequencies for the airspace through which the parachutists descend and in which the drop aircraft operates.
10.3 A broadcast made under subsection 10.1 must give notice of:
(a) the location of the drop zone;
(b) the altitude at which the parachutists will exit the aircraft.
10.4 The relevant frequencies include:
(a) any ATC frequency for airspace used by the drop aircraft;
(b) any other frequency used in airspace through which the parachutists may descend after exiting the aircraft;
(c) where the landing area for the parachutists is located in the vicinity of an aerodrome where an air traffic control service is not provided—the CTAF for the surrounding airspace.
10.5 A broadcast made by ATC on an ATC frequency advising that parachutists will be dropped at a time stated in the broadcast is taken to be a broadcast on that frequency under subsection 10.1, subject to meeting the requirements of subsections 10.3 and 10.4.

Additional requirements in controlled airspace
11.1 The pilot in command must not allow parachutists to exit a drop aircraft in controlled airspace until he or she has received from ATC the clearance “[Aircraft call-sign] clear to drop”.
11.2 A drop aircraft must use its VHF radio transceivers to communicate with ATC and to monitor and advise air traffic outside the controlled airspace.
11.3 If parachutists will not be dropped within 3 nautical miles radius of the centre of the drop zone, the pilot in command must advise ATC of the direction and extent of any extension required to the drop zone.

Additional requirements at aerodromes requiring radio carriage and use
12.1 A drop aircraft must not engage in an operation involving parachute descents at, or in the vicinity of, an aerodrome in a CTAF(R) area, unless the pilot in command uses its VHF radio transceivers to monitor and advise air traffic in the vicinity of the aerodrome and the surrounding areas, using the relevant CTAF(R) and any other relevant frequencies.
12.2 In addition to the broadcast required under subsection 10.1, a broadcast advising the intention to drop parachutists at the location specified in the broadcast must be made from the drop aircraft on the relevant frequencies not less than 4 minutes before the parachutists exit the aircraft.

12.3 A broadcast under subsection 12.2 must be made on the relevant frequencies specified in subsection 10.4.

12.4 The pilot in command must ensure that parachutists do not exit a drop aircraft at, in the vicinity of, an aerodrome in a CTAF(R) area, if the descent would take place 15 minutes or less before the estimated time of arrival of an aircraft engaged in regular public transport operations (an RPT aircraft).

12.5 Subsection 12.4 does not apply if:
(a) the 2 aircraft are in direct radiocommunication with each other; and
(b) all parachutists are able to exit the aircraft and land before the RPT aircraft arrives within the circuit area of the aerodrome.
12.6 After an RPT aircraft arrives at an aerodrome in a CTAF(R) area, the pilot in command of a drop aircraft must ensure that parachutists do not exit the aircraft at, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome until the RPT aircraft has landed and taxied clear of the runway.

12.7 After an RPT aircraft has broadcast that it is taxiing for departure from an aerodrome where radio carriage and use is required, the pilot in command of a drop aircraft must ensure that parachutists do not exit the aircraft at, in the vicinity of, the aerodrome until the RPT aircraft is clear of the circuit area of the aerodrome.

Additional requirements at certified or registered aerodromes
13.1 The pilot in command must ensure that parachutists do not exit a drop aircraft at a certified or registered aerodrome, unless:
(a) the aerodrome operator has approved parachute descents at the aerodrome; and
(b) regular and local users of the aerodrome have been given timely
notice of the intended descents;
(c) the target set out for the parachutists is separated from the movement area by a distance equal to the applicable minimum drop zone radius; and
(d) the descents do not conflict with any aircraft that are:
(i) on the live side of any circuit that is in use, or that could reasonably be expected to be used, by known traffic in prevailing conditions; or
(ii) using any runway, taxiway or apron.

13.2 Subsection 13.1 does not apply to an operation involving parachute descents at a certified or registered aerodrome if written specifications issued under regulation 152 of CAR 1988 require or allow those descents to be conducted differently.

13.3 The pilot in command must ensure that parachutists do not exit a drop aircraft at a certified or registered aerodrome if the pilot in command of another aircraft:
(a) is carrying out an instrument approach procedure at the aerodrome; or
(b) is expected to commence an instrument approach procedure within the next 5 minutes.

Additional requirements for operations more than 10 0000 feet above mean sea level (amsl)
14.1 A flight crew member who is on duty in an unpressurised drop aircraft must be provided with, and continuously use, supplemental oxygen:
(a) if the aircraft is above flight level 120; or
(b) if the aircraft operates above 10 000 feet amsl:
(i) for more than 15 minutes during an operation involving parachute descents; or
(ii) at night; or
(iii) in IMC.

lk978

18th Aug 2009, 01:01

QldPilotGuy I am sorry for my post i thought that they were realy just trying to wind people up... I didn't think there was anyone that naive.

Last thing I am going to say on this... feel free to go and fly for free, just remember.

1) it is wrong
2) everyone always remembers the person who fly's for free
3) no one respects you
4) someone has already sad no before you said yes

If you don't put your foot down for flying small A/C where does it stop?

you will always be the one who pays for endorsements, works for below the award, jumps over anyone for an upgrade, bitches about the other FO's to secure that command.

My only advice is to think hard about how much is the short term gain really worth.

puff

18th Aug 2009, 01:21

The other question is if your flying for free at the parachute moab - where do you stop and draw the line. Your next job your going to be inexperienced at charter - will you work for free there ? Your next job you might have no twin time - do you work for free there ?

Name ANY other industry where people work for free for companies that are making income off the activity you are performing for free for them ? Do people work for free at the local servo to get cash register experience to work at Coles?

If these same pilots that bitch about the crap conditions they eventually get at their airline - who do they have to blame ?

Pilots on one hand bitch and moan about crap conditions - however lets face it - if VB or JQ offered guys 500 hours for 'free' on a 737/A320 after you paid $50K for an endorsement - they would be knocked over with applicants of people that would do it to make them 'more experienced' to get a job, then wonder why they can't get a job because all the other 737/A320 operators are full of 'freebie' F/Os!

The race to the bottom continues! I don't think anyone denies that people fly because they enjoy it - but they also deserve to make a decent wage or allow for all the money spent and crap one has to put up with to get a decent job.

lk978

18th Aug 2009, 01:22

"If you want to improve conditions for pilots, either

1) somehow convince people being a pilot isn't glamorous or exciting
or
2) somehow convince flight schools to train fewer pilots."

superdimona Interesting argument, I am curious to what theory of economic's this comes from?

what about

3) somehow have a minimum people will work for thus not creating a false development of supply. Oh wait they already have done this :eek:

This is the case in every industry, sometimes there are more people who want to be employed in an industry than there are jobs. However the award is there to set the minimum standards for employment that is why they are there. yes you will see a decrease in wages just like you see an increase when there is less supply... it was only 18 months ag people where offering 70K for PA31 driver. But there is government interventions that set price floors in many aspects of our economy to protect people and or the country.

If we just left it to law's of supply and demand every fun career would be under threat to the people who want to do it for fun. I would work for free as a bikini inspector.

I am in no way a unionist I am the complete opposite, some people say it is unfair for low time pilots to compete with high time guys... now that my friend is fair compitition just like when you go for a job against someone with more qualifications. Sic vita est

Van Gough

18th Aug 2009, 01:31

The following is a draft of proposed new regs, might give some idea

Revocation
1 Instrument CASA 278/97 is revoked.

Application
2 This instrument applies to aircraft engaged in parachute training operations.

Direction
3 Aircraft engaged in parachute training operations must comply with the conditions set out in section 6.

Commencement
4.1 Subject to subsections 6.2 and 6.3, this instrument comes into effect on the day after registration.
4.2 Subsection 6.1 comes into effect 90 days after the registration of this instrument.
4.3 Subsections 6.2 and 6.3 come into effect on 1 March 2010.

Definitions
5 In this instrument:
APF means the Australian Parachuting Federation Inc.
APF Jump Pilot’s Handbook means a handbook issued by the APF, as approved by CASA from time to time, setting out rules and procedures for carrying out parachuting operations.
APF Jump Pilot’s rating means a certificate issued by the APF to certify that a pilot is trained and competent to carry out parachuting operations.
ATC means air traffic control.
ATC frequency means a radio frequency used by air traffic control.
controlled airspace(CTA) means airspace that is Class A, C, D, or E airspace or a GAAP Control Zone.
Chief Instructor means an instructor “A” approved by the APF in accordance with the APF Operations Regulations to supervise parachute training operations for a training organisation .
CTAF means a common traffic advisory frequency.
CTAF(R) area means an area within which radio carriage and use are required and in which aircraft use a CTAF.
drop aircraft means any aircraft engaged in the dropping of parachutists in parachute training operations.
drop zone means the area within which parachutists taking part in a parachute training operation are required to land.
training organisation means an APF member organisation authorised by the APF to conduct parachute training operations, including
student and novice training descents and tandem jumps.

General Conditions
6.1 A drop aircraft when dropping parachutists must be operated in accordance with the APF Jump Pilot’s Handbook.
6.2 A pilot in command of a drop aircraft must hold an APF Jump Pilot’s Certificate.
6.3 A drop aircraft that is not a Class A aircraft must be maintained as if it were a Class B charter aircraft and must have a current maintenance release issued in that category.
6.4 Applications for exemptions to carry fire extinguishes may be made for certain type aircraft i.e. C172, C182, C206
6.5 Any alteration of the APF Jump Pilot’s Handbook must be notified to CASA for acceptance.
6.6 If CASA does not accept the alteration, it must notify the APF.
[6.5 is necessary if CASA is to consider whether to accept or not.]

Supervision of parachute training operations
7.1 Parachute training operations must be conducted under the supervision of a Chief Instructor.
Supervision by Chief Instructor
O.R. 13.1.3 All training Descents must be made under the supervision of a Chief Instructor and conducted in accordance with an Approved Training Operations Manual.

Safe conduct of parachute operations
8.1 The pilot in command of a drop aircraft must take all reasonable measures to ensure that:
(a) parachutists exit the aircraft only if there is no risk of any part of the aircraft being fouled by parachutists or their equipment when they exit; and
(b) the operation does not impose any adverse stress on any part of the aircraft structure; and
(c) loose objects that if dropped could create a hazard to persons or property on ground or water are not carried by parachutists exiting the aircraft.

8.2 Except in accordance with a specification issued by CASA, the person in charge of the parachuting operation, the parachutist and the pilot in command of the aircraft must ensure that:
(a) a parachute descent is made in meteorological conditions in which the target is clearly visible; and
(b) that the parachutist does not enter cloud.

Equipment
9.1 A drop aircraft must be equipped with:
(a) 2 VHF radio transceivers.; or
(b) if operating in Class G airspace, 1 VHF radio transceiver.
9.2 The radio transceivers or transceiver must be used to make broadcasts in accordance with this approval.

Radio procedures
10.1 Subject to subsection 10.4, a broadcast advising the intention to drop parachutists must be made from the drop aircraft not less than 2 minutes before the parachutists exit the aircraft.
10.2 A broadcast under subsection 10.1 must be made on all relevant frequencies for the airspace through which the parachutists descend and in which the drop aircraft operates.
10.3 A broadcast made under subsection 10.1 must give notice of:
(a) the location of the drop zone;
(b) the altitude at which the parachutists will exit the aircraft.
10.4 The relevant frequencies include:
(a) any ATC frequency for airspace used by the drop aircraft;
(b) any other frequency used in airspace through which the parachutists may descend after exiting the aircraft;
(c) where the landing area for the parachutists is located in the vicinity of an aerodrome where an air traffic control service is not provided—the CTAF for the surrounding airspace.
10.5 A broadcast made by ATC on an ATC frequency advising that parachutists will be dropped at a time stated in the broadcast is taken to be a broadcast on that frequency under subsection 10.1, subject to meeting the requirements of subsections 10.3 and 10.4.

Additional requirements in controlled airspace
11.1 The pilot in command must not allow parachutists to exit a drop aircraft in controlled airspace until he or she has received from ATC the clearance “[Aircraft call-sign] clear to drop”.
11.2 A drop aircraft must use its VHF radio transceivers to communicate with ATC and to monitor and advise air traffic outside the controlled airspace.
11.3 If parachutists will not be dropped within 3 nautical miles radius of the centre of the drop zone, the pilot in command must advise ATC of the direction and extent of any extension required to the drop zone.

Additional requirements at aerodromes requiring radio carriage and use
12.1 A drop aircraft must not engage in an operation involving parachute descents at, or in the vicinity of, an aerodrome in a CTAF(R) area, unless the pilot in command uses its VHF radio transceivers to monitor and advise air traffic in the vicinity of the aerodrome and the surrounding areas, using the relevant CTAF(R) and any other relevant frequencies.
12.2 In addition to the broadcast required under subsection 10.1, a broadcast advising the intention to drop parachutists at the location specified in the broadcast must be made from the drop aircraft on the relevant frequencies not less than 4 minutes before the parachutists exit the aircraft.

12.3 A broadcast under subsection 12.2 must be made on the relevant frequencies specified in subsection 10.4.

12.4 The pilot in command must ensure that parachutists do not exit a drop aircraft at, in the vicinity of, an aerodrome in a CTAF(R) area, if the descent would take place 15 minutes or less before the estimated time of arrival of an aircraft engaged in regular public transport operations (an RPT aircraft).

12.5 Subsection 12.4 does not apply if:
(a) the 2 aircraft are in direct radiocommunication with each other; and
(b) all parachutists are able to exit the aircraft and land before the RPT aircraft arrives within the circuit area of the aerodrome.
12.6 After an RPT aircraft arrives at an aerodrome in a CTAF(R) area, the pilot in command of a drop aircraft must ensure that parachutists do not exit the aircraft at, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome until the RPT aircraft has landed and taxied clear of the runway.

12.7 After an RPT aircraft has broadcast that it is taxiing for departure from an aerodrome where radio carriage and use is required, the pilot in command of a drop aircraft must ensure that parachutists do not exit the aircraft at, in the vicinity of, the aerodrome until the RPT aircraft is clear of the circuit area of the aerodrome.

Additional requirements at certified or registered aerodromes
13.1 The pilot in command must ensure that parachutists do not exit a drop aircraft at a certified or registered aerodrome, unless:
(a) the aerodrome operator has approved parachute descents at the aerodrome; and
(b) regular and local users of the aerodrome have been given timely
notice of the intended descents;
(c) the target set out for the parachutists is separated from the movement area by a distance equal to the applicable minimum drop zone radius; and
(d) the descents do not conflict with any aircraft that are:
(i) on the live side of any circuit that is in use, or that could reasonably be expected to be used, by known traffic in prevailing conditions; or
(ii) using any runway, taxiway or apron.

13.2 Subsection 13.1 does not apply to an operation involving parachute descents at a certified or registered aerodrome if written specifications issued under regulation 152 of CAR 1988 require or allow those descents to be conducted differently.

13.3 The pilot in command must ensure that parachutists do not exit a drop aircraft at a certified or registered aerodrome if the pilot in command of another aircraft:
(a) is carrying out an instrument approach procedure at the aerodrome; or
(b) is expected to commence an instrument approach procedure within the next 5 minutes.

Additional requirements for operations more than 10 0000 feet above mean sea level (amsl)
14.1 A flight crew member who is on duty in an unpressurised drop aircraft must be provided with, and continuously use, supplemental oxygen:
(a) if the aircraft is above flight level 120; or
(b) if the aircraft operates above 10 000 feet amsl:
(i) for more than 15 minutes during an operation involving parachute descents; or
(ii) at night; or
(iii) in IMC.

I didn't see anything in there about operators needing an AOC/chief pilot and pilots to have CPL'S, aircraft being maintained to charter standard etc...:ugh:I sincerely hope these changes are made.

lk978

18th Aug 2009, 01:38

Van Gough

From the APF the first round of changes being made only require aircraft to be maintained to charter category, pilots will require endorsement just like a low level or aerobatic one, and operations will need to nominte a Senior pilot and supply a pilot manual not an AOC operations manual.

PPL's will still be good to fly on.

D-J

18th Aug 2009, 02:00

I didn't see anything in there about operators needing an AOC/chief pilot and pilots to have CPL'S, aircraft being maintained to charter standard etc...I sincerely hope these changes are made.

This draft came about before the push for an AOC, as I've been informed casa is pushing for aoc's but this is all in discussion with the APF who are resisting the move

superdimona

18th Aug 2009, 02:47

IK978 we have minimum wage laws to stop vulnerable people (like high school kids) being paid $5 per hour to stack shelves at Coles. The difference is you don't have kids offering to stack shelves for free because they enjoy the experience.

KRviator

18th Aug 2009, 02:48

Krviator and the rest...probably best you lot stay out of the industry. People like you ARE the problemNo fear of that now. I was in it, started washing airplanes at 15, and began flying not long after. Decided it wasn't worth the heartache of moving up north for X years with no gurantee of promotion, all the while fighting with every other low-time CPL holder for that first hour of twin time. As I said before, I chose to put my family first and got a job that probably pays a lot more than some, maybe most, regional captains straight off the bat, and now I fly what I want, when I want to. Which to me, is what flying is all about.

QldPilotGuy I am sorry for my post i thought that they were realy just trying to wind people up... I didn't think there was anyone that naive.I paid for my railway Safeworking school. So does that make me naive? It got me the job I wanted - and after discussions with the supervisor who hired the 5 of us, I was #2 out of 150 applicants because I'd paid for the safeworking out of my own pocket. Different industries, but the overriding principles are the same. The person who was ahead of me was already employed by a rail operator when he applied.

Last thing I am going to say on this... feel free to go and fly for free, just remember.

1) it is wrong
2) everyone always remembers the person who fly's for free
3) no one respects you
4) someone has already sad no before you said yes

If you don't put your foot down for flying small A/C where does it stop?

you will always be the one who pays for endorsements, works for below the award, jumps over anyone for an upgrade, bitches about the other FO's to secure that command.

My only advice is to think hard about how much is the short term gain really worth.My answer to that is I am in it for myself. I certainly don't consider myself a team player in that context, and as I've said before, my family and I come before anyone I work for - or with. IF that involves paying for an endorsement to gurantee the job, so be it. Pilots here appear to be one of the few groups of employees who believe the employer should pay for everything once you've got your CPL. Fair enough if you are already employed by said employer but if you aren't, I honestly don't see the heartache paying for your Chieftain, -8 or any other endorsement, if it will gurantee you a job. Time on type plays a part obviously -but of two identical CPL's, one with a Chieftain endorsement, one without, who do you think the employer will choose?

The other question is if your flying for free at the parachute moab - where do you stop and draw the line. Your next job you might have no twin time - do you work for free there ?If it was something along the lines of ferrying aircraft for the time, I'd be the first to do it, and I make no apologies about that. If anyone is going to give me time in an airplane that doesn't cost me anything along the line, then I'd take it.

Name ANY other industry where people work for free for companies that are making income off the activity you are performing for free for them ?The Australian rail industry has such operators. Not many admittedly, but they are there. Take someone in my shoes many moons ago, hanging around the airport washing airplanes. Never did get paid for it, but whenever there was a spare seat airborne I was in it. Should I have demanded payment for said work, or is it acceptable to "work for free" in this example?

However the award is there to set the minimum standards for employment that is why they are there.So, why are there GA operators in Australia that manage to get away without paying it? If everyone was required to pay the award we wouldn't be having this discussion. But they're not, and we are.

yes you will see a decrease in wages just like you see an increase when there is less supply... it was only 18 months ag people where offering 70K for PA31 driver.So, if you didn't have your Chieftain endorsement, do you honestly see a problem with going and paying for it yourself, at a cost of perhaps $5,000, to be more competitive for a job that pays $70K? Or is it just things at the bottom end of GA where this is verboten?

Somebody asked "How much is that short term gain worth?". I would rephrase that as "How much is that short term pain worth?" and answer it as a hell of a lot. It has been said there is no such thing as bad hours in the logbook, so maybe I really am "that" naive.

Torquatus

18th Aug 2009, 02:57

Name ANY other industry where people work for free for companies that are making income off the activity you are performing for free for them ? Do people work for free at the local servo to get cash register experience to work at Coles?

Certainly not with jobs requiring less formalised training such as those you list, but for example legal professionals often work for free during an internship to build experience and contacts. There are other industries where this is happening with what should be seen as detrimental effects (game design and film/television for example), but certainly in the legal profession it is seen as a positive thing.

I'm not saying this translates to aviation, and I agree people deserve a fair day's pay for a fair day's (or night's) work.

lk978

18th Aug 2009, 03:11

KRviator They don't pay the award because people like you will work for less. I would not be so proud of you willingness to work for nothing.

"I paid for my railway Safeworking school." but would you go and work for a rail company for free after your had your licence?

You my friend are a scab. I am sure one day will be sitting in your A320 crying about the fact you have no money because your still trying to pay for your 50K endorsement on 60K per year, and your ex wife is taking half your pay. I am also certin that there will be an old school capt. laughing his ass off because he has 2 ex wives and still has a pot to p!ss in because he didnt sell his hole to get there :ok:

superdimona I agree, why are 18 yo pilot's any different? what if you have a life gaurd who loves the beach do they go unpaid? they even have to deal with volunteers.... why dont councils rely solely on volunteers?

j3pipercub

18th Aug 2009, 04:21

Thanks for clearing up exactly what we are guys...be careful that the air up on those tall pedestals aint so thin that you feel dizzy and fall...loooooong way down from up there

j3
self confessed excrement and scab it would seem :ok: (maybe only half of each as I paid for and endorsement and then got paid less than the award...)

j3pipercub

18th Aug 2009, 04:37

ilk978, you call KRviator a scab for paying for a course...I think you might be a charcoal pot in this case....

In my case allot of my desire for wanting to do everything within a short amount of time and to have the luxuries my parents have today comes from the fact like most baby boomer parents my parents have work very hard to allow me to do what i do.

AND

I am not ashamed to say my parents paid for a good part of my training, i paid for the odd endorsement when i saved up enough while i was still at school.

Don't that make you a scab there too matey????

j3

SM227

18th Aug 2009, 04:46

As with any industry that askes for experience on the job,
How will I get expereince if no one gives me the chance to get any?

There is a gap between what a CPL candidates expereince is when they finish, to what they need to get a job. I know only a lucky few that have got jobs with 150hrs, they all knew the right people, which seems to be the only way to get ahead in this world.

So how are the people left behind going to get them extra hours?
They are going to either pay for it themselves, or they are going to find someone who might let them fly there plane for no charge, in most cases this is a skydiving company.

The problem is not that people are willing to work for free, its that no one is willing to take on people straight from flying school, if CASA thinks its good enough, then why dont our charter companys? Of course there is also alot of pilots that have well over the minimums applying, which is just making the gap even bigger, what is a newbie to do?! :ugh:

lk978

18th Aug 2009, 04:53

j3pipercub I am not ashamed to say i had help from the parents, especially when it came time to do a CSU and retract endorsement when I was 16.

I think I should clarify, I am not calling people who pay for endorsements scabs (although I don't agree with paying for type ratings)... just the ones who work for free, and then unashamley are proud of the fact that they do so while there are guys with more qualifications needing to find a job to pay the rent, should they work for free too?

I can understand how my previous post was interpurated incorrectly

SM227 The problem is not that people are willing to work for free, its that no one is willing to take on people straight from flying school, if CASA thinks its good enough, then why dont our charter companys?

Ahhh the $50M question... they wont take you on in a paid position because there is an over supply of pilot's thus someone more qualified than you :ugh:. Patience is the key to over comming this not working for free

QldPilotGuy

18th Aug 2009, 05:12

Ik978 do you realise you have just called all the wonderful volunteer pilots at Angel Flight Scabs. They are apart of an organisation that fly for free, actualy they fly at a loss. Or do they fall under one of your technical loopholes ?

Get off you high horse, you have alot to learn about giving other pilots respect. Personaly I would never want to fly with someone like yourself that has an ego bigger then a plane. Its fine to not agree and argue against companies that don't pay but don't speak down to other pilots, you have no idea of there personal situation.

j3pipercub and Krviator, you guys have made some great comments. couldn't agree more with them.

lk978

18th Aug 2009, 05:18

"do you realise you have just called all the wonderful volunteer pilots at Angel Flight Scabs. They are apart of an organisation that fly for free, actualy they fly at a loss. Or do they fall under one of your technical loopholes ?"

If you read my earlier posts i point out that i have no problem with people flying non revenue flying activities for nothing (parachute clubs, real clubs that is)

For a small local club operation that charges member enough to cover cost of A/C then they try and locate a pilot willing to give up a day or two every now and then, It is important to remember most of them are club members who jump as well trading off some slots for flying loads. I personally have no problem with this; I liken it to a gliding club. However there are some clubs that don’t distinguish the two areas of the operation.

I would suggest where these operations exist that you ask for a fee per tandem of which they are making money from. If they are just using you for your licence and you’re not a club member who jumps, I would find alternative ways of getting hours where you will learn something more valuable. Because all they see you as is an elevator operator.

The main problem is when it is a commercial business generating up to $900 revenue per load for a C182 and even more for the larger aircraft for a tandem operation. Now $20 - $25 for the pilot is not much to ask is it?

I have had this very same conversation many times and I explain it to operators like this. If you want your Commercial operation to be in the hands of a 200 hr pilot with no one to watch over them or teach them then go right ahead and pay them nothing because that will just result in poor standards and a lack of enthusiasm from the pilot.

If you want a professional bunch of pirates then it will cost (not allot by any means) but still the same you will have people that you can trust to operate your machine without all the jumpers looking over his or her shoulders telling them not to stall the plane, which is a growing trend with senior jumpers and junior pilot’s. One quote that http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif me off is the mentality that they have sat in a plane for 5000 jumps that means they have 2500 hrs... give me a break. I have flown with some jumpers who have 5000 jumps and they go and learn to fly and dont fly like a 250 hr pilot, it comes back to time on the tools not watching better homes and gardens.

I would also like to point out to operators that there is a massive difference in flying a C182 and C208 or Twins. Not so much in the ease (Caravan wins hands down, way easier than the 182) of flying but the decisions that come with larger aircraft and especially if flying IFR. A concept skydivers dont seem to understand :ugh:.

I have flown for a commercial skydiving operation before and was paid well above the award. We had a number of pilots all with well over 1000 hours and 100 on type. 2 years and no incidents or U/S aircraft (got to love those cessna’s). We had a formal training system and it worked very well.

Also just remember some people fly 1000 hours and some people fly 1 hour a 1000 times hence why training is important in any organisation

Look it comes down to personal choice... go for your life fly for free and lets see the respect you get from other pilots, and if you don't care than good luck.

PlankBlender

18th Aug 2009, 05:53

Well it seems we need not be concerned about QldPilotGuy taking anyone's job, with the sort of BS he spouts here he'll be out of the job market fairly quickly! :D

Still, the excellent responses here have shown that it's generally understood that working for free distorts wage levels and strips pilots that do it of any respect among their peers. :=

Mate if you can't distinguish between renting an aircraft or donating your own aircraft's operating expenses for charity to support a wonderful altruistic cause like Angel Flight, and someone stupid and naive enough to contribute to a business's profit by working for free, then you should maybe consider alternative employment:ugh:

lk978

18th Aug 2009, 06:32

well said Plankbender, I wonder how many of these people would be willing to reveal their expearience and names to the pilot forum? Just in case i need someone to fly for me while i take a holiday and still get paid.:}

j3pipercub

18th Aug 2009, 06:44

lk978, you say that patience is the key to not working for free...care to swap with someone who is un-employed? Looking for every little scrap of flying, just having spent 70k of their OWN money getting all the licenses and ratings, to be told, sorry, but not right now, or for the next 12 months thanks...or...only applicants with 500 hours total time and above will be considered. To have left your job to learn full time and now your stacking shelves/tossing bags/driving cabs. It can and is soul destroying.

Then you do something you thought you'd never do, work for free for a skydiving mob, not undercutting anyone, as thats the deal at this particualr DZ, and always has been. You sweep the hangar and stack shelves/dish pig while you wait your turn. You do your time, get the magic 500tt and leave (North, West, anywhere) and the guy who was sweeping the hangar takes your spot. Your choice, not dis-advantaging anyone else, as there will ALWAYS be pilots who will do it. no matter how many guys swear they will never-ever work for free, when it comes to cracking that first job, if meatbombing for free on weekends helps, then I doubt any young self-funded CPL wouldn't at least think about it...

If it's not for you, then walk away. Don't howl down the pilot for lowering conditions etc. It's not a charter mob, It's meatbombing. Technically speaking, it's a Private Op (or has been up to this point), so isn't getting paid a bit on the shady side??

If said pilot walks into a mob in Darwin/Kunnas and offers to work for free, sure string him up/birch them/whatever floats your boat. But not skydiving...

Just curious guys, for my own amusement. To the ones on here that reckon flying meatbombs for free is immoral/worse than worshipping satan/worse than waking up beside a sheman in Thailand:

-How many have made it into the airlines (Or the job of your dreams) ? What experience level are you at the moment? (@ you lk978/GADRVR/puff/jaeiou)

-Along the way, did you ever get paid below the award or do any little bit of gratis ie ferry flight when you were just fresh etc or pay for a endorsement to get a job. Be honest now...

-If in the airlines, did you have to pay for a Type Rating (Including Salary Sacrifice)

Cheers

j3

lk978

18th Aug 2009, 07:00

j3pipercub - only paid for retract, csu endo and initial twin in MECIR... 1500 TT in 9 years... most of which was in the last 2 years... it is a slow game but sh!t it is fun

GADRIVR

18th Aug 2009, 07:20

J3....a fair question near the end of your post and deserving of an honest answer.
1. Never worked for less than the award....I ALWAYS found a way around what employers were trying to do. Free endorsements on aircraft that weren't on the AOC, half hourly rate, half salary..., free MECIR, the list goes on.
2. Have worked on the management side. Made sure the guys I was responsible for didn't have to put up with same **** I did.
3. No free ferry flying....made sure I was paid....EVERY time....at the award rate or above.
4. Couple of thousand hours with most/all of the boxes ticked.
Have I missed out on work because I won't work for zippo...or won't break rules...or won't put up with sleazy operators...or fly ill maintained aircraft?
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!! I figure my attitude has put me behind about 3 years of seniority....or about $400,000 in lost pay/super when I turn 65.
Do I regret that...ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
I wake up, look at myself in the mirror and am not ashamed of anything I've done in this industry. Pity about a few of the posters here.:ok:

j3pipercub

18th Aug 2009, 07:55

Thanks for the responses guys. At the end of the day though, if they want to work for free, it is their choice.

I have worked as a meatbomber and got paid enought to get by, nowhere near the award though, and I knew that when I signed up. Do I regret it, no...I sleep just fine also, I guess it's just a matter of perspective.

Would I work for nothing? Nope, never...But I don't blame/hate/berate the guys who do. They're willing to do something I'm not therefore I was never in the running for that job anyway.

Will I not recommend them for a job? Depends if they're a sidchrome or not. If they're good people and good operators of course I would recommend them for a job. For me it doesn't depend on whether they flew skydivers for free or not.

I.E. Meatbomber at local strip. Works for free mainly on weekend. I am at bowser, flying school aircraft behind me, meatbomber pulls up behind flying school. I am taking my time as it's been a long time since I re-fuelled my own aircraft (sorry) and I'm having trouble with my fuel card and sequence of events. Instructor and student keep their distance staring impatiently at my attempts at efficiency. Jump trucker walks on over (past flying school aircraft) and gives me a few pointers, done and on my way in no time. Sure he probably had motives to get me going so he could get fuel but who do you think I'm going to recommend for a job? The guy that stares at me or the guy that helps...don't matter to me if he/she flies for free as a jump trucker.

j3

bensonC

18th Aug 2009, 09:50

Wondering if I should wade into the debate or not..........................I reckon that this has just become a pissing contest and its all most parallel to the student who slogged it out doing grave yard shifts to pay for there training vs the student has mummy and daddy's amex tussling for moral superiority. Its just too bad that we are all human beings and will do what ever it takes to get what we want and need.

There are apprentice trades people out there that get paid a wage to learn while making their employers money. Maybe all the student pilots out there should jump up and down until every flying school pays them to learn to fly then gives them a charter job as soon as they finish training. It has been mention by a few in here that this industry is different to many others, in the fact that it was probably devalued many moons ago when some duderhead must of metioned to his mate that he actually enjoyed flying.

At the end of the day who cares who did what or who to end up where they are flying, most of us are in the game not just for the money but the enjoyment of aviation and the rich and rewarding career that it can be (apparently!) I would rather be sitting in the back of a kero-buner knowing that both the fellas in the pointy end are there because they want to not just for their pay check at the end of the day.

Clearedtoreenter

18th Aug 2009, 09:57

Hey! lk978, I just noticed you called me an idiot.:ouch: I don't like that. Can't help wondering what you said before you edited... I notice you seem to to going for the person and not the issue throughout your stupid posts. (notice your posts are stupid not you, you Pillock!:p) The simple reality is for some if they want to fly, they fly for nothing, or not at all. I'm not defending that but I can't knock those who are in that position.

aseanaero

18th Aug 2009, 10:34

For a small local club operation that charges member enough to cover cost of A/C then they try and locate a pilot willing to give up a day or two every now and then, It is important to remember most of them are club members who jump as well trading off some slots for flying loads. I personally have no problem with this; I liken it to a gliding club. However there are some clubs that don’t distinguish the two areas of the operation.

I think these sorts of clubs are dying out now

I would suggest where these operations exist that you ask for a fee per tandem of which they are making money from. If they are just using you for your licence and you’re not a club member who jumps, I would find alternative ways of getting hours where you will learn something more valuable. Because all they see you as is an elevator operator.

The main problem is when it is a commercial business generating up to $900 revenue per load for a C182 and even more for the larger aircraft for a tandem operation. Now $20 - $25 for the pilot is not much to ask is it?

This is the problem , they really are commercial ops under the guise of 'clubs' . In those sorts of operations when everyone else has their hand out (tandem masters, packers , video guys etc) the pilots should be paid also and operations should be at a professional level.

When I was flying real club loads I bent the rules sometimes , when it came to carrying mums and dads on tandems (who were club members for legal reasons) I didn't have any tolerance to 'bending' the rules and then ran into problems with 'the cash machine' on the drop zone. There were a number of areas where the operation was being naughty (200kg over MTOW was one) and I'm sure if anything went wrong fingers would have been rightly pointed at the pilot. I figured it was just a matter of time before I got busted for something and it wasn't fun anymore.

I paid for my own Porter endorsement (instructor time plus fuel) and flew for the hours and the fun of it and no one ever called me a scab 20 yrs ago , it was great flying and that's what people did to build hours.

I guess times change :)

Aerozepplin

18th Aug 2009, 11:50

Its such a intense argument I believe because of the unusual nature of aviation.
There can't be many industries where the recreational and professional collide quite so keenly. You don't have weekend doctors who preform a bit of surgery on themselves and their mates, halving the bill at the end because they love the work. (although I'm sure most doctors do love their work, the amature and professional word don't collide... because there isn't an amature world)

I sometimes look at the job ads for Airways, six months training and you're in an ATC job getting $50k+ and wonder if I made the right choice. Then I remember that horrible truth, I love flying. A sentiment shared by most on this board I'm sure.

jaeiou

18th Aug 2009, 12:44

j3, I'm releuctant to give too much away about myself. These forums can be read by anyone and I wish to protect my identity. Suffice to say my TT is greater than triple digits with all the trimmings. Have been around a while and currently flying for a company that will happily pay pilots as little as it can get away with, hence the implicit threat not to complain about the deal in the knowledge there is always someone else willing to do the same thing for less. Have encountered a few shonks but never worked for less than Award (have turned down offers from blokes thinking they were doing me a favour by offering to let me fly their paying customers for no reward). Still have to do work outside the industry to survive. Have only paid for own renewals/endorsements at times when unemployed. My views are from the trenches; not as someone on high who hasn't done or is not still doing the hard yards.

As for the poster who lamented the difficulty of getting work with just 150 hours: yes it's tough to get those first few hundred hours, but this does not give anyone making money from your labour the excuse to pay nothing for your services. Flying being a fun pursuit is irrelevant. There are prostitutes who enjoy what they do but they certainly don't give it away! First and foremost, people have to make a living and have a right to be paid for their hard earned skills. Being a pilot is a responsible job. People trust us with their lives. Even a bare CPL holder has experience and skills that are worthy of being paid for. It is unhelpful for pilots to devalue the profession by working for nothing.

Yes, it's understandable for people to think that if they don't do it for nothing someone else will, "so what the heck," they say, "I'll look after myself and the rest can go and get st#%$#d." I stand by my comment that working for nothing is immoral on the part of the operator and employee. Fair dinkum not-for-profit clubs aside, an operator who behaves in such a way is scum and deserves to go broke (but they won't!); the pilot is making it hard for everyone else in the industry who doesn't have the luxury of working for free and only serves to humiliate and undermine themselves as well as devalue the market. Even a first year apprentice tradesman, graduate lawyer or junior at a fast food joint or retail store are paid a meagre wage (a lot of these folk also enjoy what they do). Difficult and tempting as it might be, don't allow unscrupulous operators to con you into thinking your labour is not worth anything. Just because it's the way it has always been doesn't mean it's the way it must continue to be. Collectively, we only have ourselves to blame for the Dickensian practices that occur.

So much for having Labor governments in power throughout most of the country. In any other industry...

aseanaero

18th Aug 2009, 13:38

There can't be many industries where the recreational and professional collide quite so keenly

Amateur gynacology ?

xxgoldxx

18th Aug 2009, 13:56

its all context really..

Para dropping aint commercial and that aint gunna change any time soon.. if you dont like it go see CASA... dont vent here ..!!!

there are i think very few who do not pay something these days.. so lets say it $5 a load (or $20 for that matter). not to award either way so I guess Im a scab...

I live in Sydney with a week job house kids etc and looking for a mid life career change..

Should I sell up, quit my job, move the family to Broome and pay rent of $800 a week etc etc for a "award" job of $35 K just so you mob with jobs already can be happy Im not a scab..

Take a big pay cut.. massive removal cost.... etc etc...
Being a "scab" aint that bad I reckon..

profit = income recieved - costs incurred..

Can you guys really say that every employee you ever worked for did EVERYTHING by the book 100% of the time ??

if you ever bent F&Duty or pushed last light.. logged that MR a bit shy.. put that extra bag onboard...then really as they say .. people in glass houses...

we all did what we had to to get where we are...

aseanaero

18th Aug 2009, 14:00

You got to fly a Porter? You lucky bastard http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gif

Hi Owen , I loved the Porter , if you ever get a chance jump at it !

They glide really well also ... :bored:

the wizard of auz

18th Aug 2009, 14:19

Amateur gynacology ?
I don't know much about it, but I'm willing to have a look. :E

Mate I would give a hundred of my caravan hours for 2 in a Porter
I second that.

aseanaero

18th Aug 2009, 22:53

Serious, would love to hear about it some day http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Owen , start a post in DG+P , there must be a bunch of guys here that flew Porters in Oz , PNG and NZ . I don't know how many are still in Oz with jump ops , the one I used to fly is now in Europe (France I think).

The fun part was coming down as you know , we'd be on the ground before the meaties.

j3pipercub

18th Aug 2009, 23:07

Xxgoldxxx. Liked your post, interesting take on things I hadn't considered.

I'll third the porter. Is there still one out at the museum?? If so maybe a bunch of us could 'borrow' it and go for a few laps. Although I'd prefer a PBY endo instead...

Van Gough

19th Aug 2009, 08:23

I live in Sydney with a week job house kids etc and looking for a mid life career change..

Should I sell up, quit my job, move the family to Broome and pay rent of $800 a week etc etc for a "award" job of $35 K just so you mob with jobs already can be happy Im not a scab..

Take a big pay cut.. massive removal cost.... etc etc...
Being a "scab" aint that bad I reckon..

I'm sure you would have a different point of view if someone came along to your week job in Sydney and made you unemployed by working for nothing:ouch:

dik cheney

19th Aug 2009, 11:56

there are i think very few who do not pay something these days.. so lets say it $5 a load (or $20 for that matter). not to award either way so I guess Im a scab...

I live in Sydney with a week job house kids etc and looking for a mid life career change..

Should I sell up, quit my job, move the family to Broome and pay rent of $800 a week etc etc for a "award" job of $35 K just so you mob with jobs already can be happy Im not a scab..

4x it sounds like you got yourself a hobbie rather than a career change. What are you going to do, fly some skydivers on weekends and wait for an airline job? Good luck with that.

xxgoldxx

19th Aug 2009, 11:57

VG

Fair point.. however I am employed in a full time position with award protection and union interests etc etc

Para dropping is NOT a commercial position and in many cases is undertaken by PPL pilots.

Thats the rules. Thats reality.

There is no breach of any rules and its great for me... so why are commercial pilots trying to dictate a union mentality to a PPL pilot...

how can I effect your job if I dont even have a CPL...??

The operator pays me to "caretake" the DZ and I get to fly turbine aircraft for "free" all around the country with 500 hrs total...

name another "hobby" where that happens...???
(glider ops is the same..no CPL there..)

When I apply for a CPL job there will be comercial requirements to meet on both sides..

Until then I will continue to have a ball.!!

dik..
ask your airline mates how many have para time... i think you would be surprised ... will you tell them they have got there under false pretences..??

flying-spike

20th Aug 2009, 06:42

As a former chief pilot who was bombarded with applications every week I had more than a few applicants ring and offer to fly for nothing and even offer to pay the difference in insurance premiums in order to cover their low experience. The conversations finished something like this:

" I have paid my way for training and travelled from one end of the country to the other on the off chance of getting a job, if you are willing to work for nothing then that is what you are worth".......CLICK

Van Gough

20th Aug 2009, 13:49

Para dropping is NOT a commercial position and in many cases is undertaken by PPL pilots

One thing that should be noted is that alot of these places are the very definition of a commercial operation - short flights, high workload, quick turnarounds, absolute minimum fuel, bad weather, commercial pressure to fly, fatigue issues, paying passengers...its astounding that CASA allow the practice of PPLs flying jump ops to continue:ugh:

aseanaero

20th Aug 2009, 14:22

Van Gough , agree with your comments.

In terms of pilots getting paid for flying it's mostly happening at the larger drop zones anyway and a lot of the bigger aircraft are using CPLs.

I guess it's the small to medium drop zones where some pilots aren't getting paid and the argument used is they are PPL and it's illegal (as the skydivers want a bigger pay packet).

I do like the idea of getting around this by paying the pilot for on drop zone services for non flying related duties .

20 years ago 90%-95% of jump pilots were flying for free and it was only the big drop zones like Picton that were paying pilots. I interacted with a lot of GA guys at Parafield in those days (charter pilots, instuctors etc) and no one ever bagged me for flying for free , they actually supported it for building hours and none of them wanted to fly feral meat bombs in ancient 30 to 35 year old jump planes.

It was really the advent of tandem jumps which changed the scene for good and bad , my drop zone was able to go from a C182 to a Porter but a lot of the fun went out the door also , most of the jumpers had jobs they weren't happy with and all of a sudden they were able to go and earn a full time income out of their hobby , as a pilot going through this transition period you could see the difference in attitude.

Before when they paid for their own jumps they would accept if we held a load to wait for the weather to clear up as they had a limited budget anyway but when someone else was paying for their jumps and they were putting money in their pockets and had bills to pay the whole drop zone would want to lynch the pilot if he 'wussed out' due to cloud.

I was doing it for fun and hours but after a couple of years of tandems things weren't so much fun anymore . I pushed it sometimes with the GPS and solid overcast at 10,000ft but drew the line at doing IFR para drops with 8/8's cloud base at 4,000 (which extended to above exit height) which some pilots attempted (I don't know whether this still happens :hmm:). I really disagreed with this as there was a training area and a lane of entry right next to the drop zone and none of the pilots that did it had an instrument rating !

How many times have VFR pilots been running along under a solid cloudbase under 5,000ft and heard a 'VFR' jump plane at 12,000 or 14,000ft dropping through an imaginary 'hole' ?

That was the reality of commercial pressures where no jumping meant no pay for the now full time tandem masters , packers , cameraman , manifest etc and they had bills to pay each week.

One point that's interesting is given that low time PPLs were/are flying at the smaller drop zones the fatal accident rate is quite low , if you look at the majority of fatal accidents worldwide (the US in particular) it's usually the larger commercial operations with commercial pilots , maybe because they are pushing the envelope even harder than the unpaid PPL guys due to the commercial realities of a DZ today , look at the causes of most of these fatal accidents , weather and loss of power after take off as the pilot was fatigued and miscalculated his fuel.

WichWayIsUp

20th Aug 2009, 22:54

I completely and whole heartedly agree with plankbender 100%. I will say this from the start, I am low hour pilot with 250 hours under the belt. It is hard times for all us at the moment with the way the economy is going. Nevertheless for any up an comming pilots who wants to make a career out this industry, they will find it even harder. So I understand the mentallity and the idea of working for free, because you take what you can get to get ahead in this industry.

But for f&%k sakes were are some of your morals and dignity. It seems to me that sum of you threw that out of the window the day you got that piece of paper saying that you can fly a plane now. Working for free for any organistion (besides a club obviously) is a blatent use and abuse of our skills, and some of us have just about signed deals with the devil to get our CPL's. So I ask why, why, why would anyone work for free, unless daddy or mummy is there to help cushion the fall because you are not receiving an income. I also understand and value the comments about we should be flying because it is a passion and not a job. But how da hell will I be eating tonight if I cant even find a paying job, because the market is getting flooded with guys that are willing to work for less than peanuts.

I will raise my hand and say that I made the mistake of taking that first job for free, which I want to kick myself for. Luckily my uncle talked some sense into me and aksed why i would be doing this to myself. I really felt cheap and it was so demeaning to me. And to put the icing on the cake i got less than 10hours of work over a period of 3months which is another joke in itself. It has been almost 3 months since i touched plane, no easy task for me. Regardless I decided that I am travelling to africa to find a real flying job as I have some connections over there.

The point out this whole story is that if your willing to make this industry a happy and fun enviroment for all of us, you will do the hard yards by travelling the miles and looking for that first paying job. I would much rather look back on the start of my career with pride and say that I did the hard yards with pride and dignity.

These are hard times, but they will pass. The thing that we have to be worried about is how do get through it with our heads held high.

Kind regards

aseanaero

21st Aug 2009, 02:32

One point that's interesting is given that low time PPLs were/are flying at the smaller drop zones the fatal accident rate is quite low , if you look at the majority of fatal accidents worldwide (the US in particular) it's usually the larger commercial operations with commercial pilots

I found this site which is interesting and in fact shows it IS the little ops with inexperienced pilots that have most of the fatalities mainly due to inexperience ( loss of control, weight and balance issues , poorly handled emergencies). I stand to be corrected , the facts speak for themselves. When the big aircraft go in they stick in your memory but there are lots of C182/205/206s going in also.

Accidents (http://www.diverdriver.com/Accidents/accidents.htm#2009)

If you go to the spreadsheet the 3 main causes of accidents in 2005 to 2007 were equally FUEL , CONTROL FLIGHT INTO TERRAIN and LOSS OF CONTROL.

70% of accidents from 1992 to 2007 involved C182, 205, 206

Turbine accidents were 31% C-90 King Air , 31% Twin Otter , 20% Porter and 17% Caravan .

I was amazed how many stall spin accidents on jump run there are in the USA , that seems to rarely happen in Oz .

When you look at the statistics there's a big difference between PPL C182 ops and experienced meat bombers (mostly CPLs) using turbines. When you consider how many loads are done in the USA even with the commercial pressures of a tandem and training DZ the accident rate for the turbine DZs is probably the same if not better than Part 135 charter ops .

----

xxgoldxx

21st Aug 2009, 14:55

point 1...

I AM IN NO WAY DEFENDING A LEGIT AIRWORK/CHTR/RPT OP THAT WOULD HIRE A PILOT FOR LESS THAN AWARD.. (or a para op that would pay nothing).... however..

VG etc

all your points are absolutely true .. requires skill and hard work to master... but the point remains.. it is NOT a COMMERCIAL OPERATION IN THE EYES OF CASA..

yes they have looked at it.. yes it is was under scrutiny .. and yes over time I think you will probably see a requirement for it to be a CPL pilot..

so what will the award be for a CPL pilot that flies a private non AOC operation..?? who will want to put thier hand up to try and manage that one..??

people pay a fortune from overseas countries to come here and fly gliders.. they are towed by PPL pilots in anything from Pawnees to ultralights etc.. they pay to get a lift to height .. then they do thier own thing.. they charge passengers for flights as well.. should they have an AOC..??

trikes do the same under the TIF clause in HGFA and I presume something similar in RAA... how comitted to future pilots do you think the average trike ride backpacker pilot is in Cairns, Byron Bay or Broome...??

it is a minefield.. and skydive is not the only one.. but why hassle some guy who wants to get in.. get paid... have fun.. get out and move on..?

asean is obviously someone who got where they are and has alot of stories to tell from meatbombing..

so asean .. from the horses mouth.. are you proud of your achivements or do you feel like a "scab" for having flown the porter etc and worked for less than (who's) award...? or are you better for the experience and enjoying your current life.....

aseanaero

21st Aug 2009, 15:32

Hi Gold,

You're right , it's a really complex situation , it is a private operation in the eyes of the law requiring a PPL and there are other similar operations like glider clubs .

Pilots are a commodity whether we like it or not , if there's an oversupply and people are fighting to stay in the race to get a full time job and they can afford to live by other means they will fly for nothing as they see it as a way of staying current and building hours until something better comes along. And as a 'commodity' if there was a shortage of pilots and the drop zones had a choice of paying pilots or shutting down ops they would pay.

The bigger drop zones pay because they have expensive equipment and high work load for the pilots and to get the skills they want they can't get it for free. Some smaller drop zones pay because they think it's fair that everyone makes a dollar. There will always be those that will want to get their pilots for nothing.

If you have tried all other avenues for real employment 'up north' but you are way short of hours and if you can get 200 to 500hrs under your belt in 12 months dropping meat bombs without pay and if the alternative was letting your training and currency lapse and it was all for nothing I'd do it. After you've done your 12 months go looking again for a job.

When I flew skydivers 20 yrs ago nobody criticised me for flying at the DZ for free , I also ferried aircraft , met farmers at outer airports and guided them through the lane of entry to Parafield , drove the fuel truck (got paid for that) and did whatever I could to get different experiences. Meat bombing is a good skills builder also.

Everybody's situation is different and there's not always jobs 'up north' or we have a wife and kids at home and are not in a position to just pack bags into the back of the wagon and head off looking for a job. Pilots are supposed to be able to make command decisions and this sort of call is a command decision for your own circumstances.

--

j3pipercub

22nd Aug 2009, 00:04

Which Way Is Up,

You criticise peoples morals and then admit to doing the very thing that you have a go at others for. go away sidchrome.

j3

PlankBlender

22nd Aug 2009, 00:26

j3, shock horror, some people are seemingly capable of changing their views after due consideration, critical evaluation of their actions in light of facts learned, taking others' advice into account..

aseanaero

22nd Aug 2009, 00:27

there friendly and have killer parties!

I remember one notorious DZ party involving large quantities of petrol , fire jumping and gun fire. The club committee read the riot act when they turned up the next day and saw the post nucleur holocaust aftermath and guns were banned off the DZ.

The classic moment of the night was when a 200 litre drum exploded and flew up into the air like in a Hollywood movie and everyone wondered where it went (it was a pitch black night) and it landed with a thud behind the crowd !

Other inventions was the homemade LPG powered tennis ball bazooka that could crack a car windscreen (Kyle where are you now ? :) )

Things have probably calmed down over the years but more people get injured falling off balconies or trees during the parties than skydiving :}

j3pipercub

22nd Aug 2009, 04:59

Thats fine Plank,

BUT you can't be on the high horse say others are immoral and lack dignity yet only three months ago have done the same thing!!!! Paint is still a little too fresh so to speak...and you come across as living in a rather glassy house. One wonders if young WWIU would have stayed if the flying was really regular and frequent...

j3

see_my_slots

22nd Aug 2009, 10:22

This is a very interesting thread to read. Mainly because I am a pilot in Nz and it would appear from most of the posts on here are from Australian pilots due to the general gist being about working for free, or less than "Award".

Now, in good ol' NZ, we do not have an 'award' rate for our pilots. We have 'minimum wage', which is based on an hourly rate. It's $12.50/hour. We also have pilots working for less than this. "Why?" do you ask? Well, its easy. For those of us who are in a GA job with a reasonable amount of time (total, multi, ato AND ifr) it is somehow seen as a priviledge. Our bosses basically think that if we are only "on duty" for 4 hours and yet we have been working (albeit with a "rest" of 8 hours hanging around an airport terminal or somewhere just as fun with no way of getting anywhere else) for 12, we were lucky to get our 1.5 multi hours and that they are doing us a favour by giving us that....

Or we are on duty for the maximum 11 hours (ato) and yet still get paid the same as if we had only worked for 8. After 8 hours, most GA pilots in NZ are getting LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE. Most of us are in that situation. Our bosses say, "But some days you only work 6 hours, so it kinda averages out". Once again, they think they are doing us a favour.

From what I can work out, under the award rate, my boss would be forced to pay me about $40k. Which, to be honest, they can afford. But there is nothing to make them do this.

Is this going to change? No, it isn't. Because we are all to scared of losing our jobs or not getting the flying if we kick up a stink. There is ALPA, but once again, too scared to do anything cos you don't want to be "That guy" and risk not furthering your career because you were the one branded a sh%t stirrer. The guys in the Airlines are just so glad to be out of it that they push it so far from their memory that they're not gonna stand up for us either ("I survived it, so you can too, son"). So we all suffer in silence because "thats what's always happened" and "one day it will all be worth it".

Unfortunately we all b%tch and moan and get ulcers about it and it is all because of these people who work for free, and yet we do it. Don't ask me why. I cannot tell you. Maybe we all need a bullet.

Be interesting to hear from other kiwi guys/gals on this...

Sorry, it's been a long day. I feel better now, though.

Unfortunately we all b%tch and moan and get ulcers about it and it is all because of these people who work for free, and yet we do it. Don't ask me why. I cannot tell you. Maybe we all need a bullet.

xxgoldxx

22nd Aug 2009, 12:19

hey asean.

cheers for the comments.. I am not that 500 pilot any more ... but remember it well..

I did some jump flying then and got the hours to get in the door elsewhere..had alot of fun in the process..

many years later I still do some now and then just for giggles..

when the operator tries to pay I just ask for beer instead...
guess thats not quite award either but hey.. its my life right...!

jahaj_crash

23rd Aug 2009, 09:18

NO PAY NO WORK :ok:
As long as operator is making a profit. we deserve a cut too.
IMHO: we ought to have another or offshoot in AOPA or some union where we all can together standup against the exploitation.
United We Stand Divided we Fall.:ok:

PlankBlender

24th Aug 2009, 23:07

see_my_slots, ever asked yourself how Oz pilots got their award??

aseanaero

25th Aug 2009, 01:56

Let's assume we have a law abiding, well run and safe skydiving op in all ways except that the owner or club committee decides to ignore the law and pays award wages to a new CPL because they think that's the right thing to do.

Tax records , copies of pay slips etc. are also kept.

For whatever reason CASA comes along and says that paying the pilot is in breach of the APF and CASA regulations as the pilot is working for hire or reward under a private operation.

Then what happens ?

While everyone likes to get recognised and rewarded for their efforts , education and training at the moment paying pilots in skydiving ops is against the law.

If a PPL was caught selling joy flights to his mates and friends and making a profit and he got nailed for it nobody would feel sorry for him as it is clearly against the regulations.

Here we have have another situation in skydiving ops in which a pilot cannot receive reward or compensation in a 'private club operation' .

Most of the posts on this thread continue to ignore this fact. The award doesn't apply to 'private' operations, and if you get paid you the pilot are in breach of the regs.

Pilots getting paid and not getting paid is partly also the result of confusion over what the law really is in respect of pilots in these operations , not just greed by the operator or club.

--

UnderneathTheRadar

25th Aug 2009, 06:49

Aseanaero - there is nothing wrong, AFAIK, with being paid to do non-commercial operations.

There are many many pilots employed on private operations all around the world who's owners don't hold an AOC and pay their pilots award wages or better.

You are confusing the requirement to hold an AOC (i.e. run a commercial operation) with the 'not for hire or reward' limitations on a PPL. CASA would not be able to bust anyone for a breach of it's or APF regs.

UTR

aseanaero

25th Aug 2009, 08:04

Thanks for clearing that up for me :)

see_my_slots

27th Aug 2009, 20:12

Plank- The old grey matter seems to be running a bit slow down here in this cooler wx, so in answer to your question basically, no. I thought it was one of those mysterious things that just happened, like presents from Santa or babies arriving. Now that you mention it tho, going to look into how the award came about...care to enlighten me in the mean time? Or point me in the right direction to research it?

I would have no idea how to start if one was brave enough to get the ball rolling in regards to it on this side of the ditch... The reason I say brave enough is cos I'm sure there was alot of work involved and that's the perfect time for rumours, gossip and defamation to start. Sure, the instigator is being thanked now, but what did they go through before it came law?

J.I.P

11th Nov 2009, 10:47

Jumpflying should be seen as a hobbie, not as work. However, you should get paid for it or the operator should pay for the classrating. At least at a commercial center if you work fulltime. However, the jumpflying itself is already rewarding enough if you fly a couple of hours purely as a hobby. And you learn alot of handflying in the process. Unusual attitudes is not very uncommon. Having guys hangin on your struts giving you the finger at 13000' and trying to follow you as you aim the nose to mother earth is priceless, especially when videotaped. You get to do a lot of cloudsurfing on the way down, beautifull views, fast short and high approaches.. You are really free as a meatbombdropper. But stay within the limits, as there have been a lot of twisted metal before you all.. And it is always the next guy who get killed because you are pulling the G's over and over again. And that is exactly why you should be paid as a pilot, so you have obligations to hang on to!

However, If I would win the lottery tomorrow, I'll be jumppilot as long as I could... for free....

aseanaero

12th Nov 2009, 05:06

And it is always the next guy who get killed because you are pulling the G's over and over again

Shouldn't be much G on the aircraft unless someone is doing spiral descents

framer

12th Nov 2009, 05:24

Jumpflying should be seen as a hobbie, not as work.
Sweeping statement.
30 loads a day is much more demanding than flying an airliner 99% of the time.

J.I.P

12th Nov 2009, 07:57

@ Assanearo,

Exactly, thats what I mean... There have been many accidents in skydiving where the plane gets overstressed. Thats why one should always be within the envelope.. Your left wing does not break the first time you pull 4 G's, probably also not the 6th, 20th of 99th time... Thats why it's always the next guy who has to pay for your behaviour, or vice versa... The amount of brand new shiny a/c's is not that huge in skydiving ops... Lot's of 'm have seen better days..

@ framer,

Correct, it can be very demanding. That's why one should only do so because he or she truly enjoys it (hobby). Otherwise it is a long, stressfull and dreadfull day. This does not mean that you should not get paid for it. However, don't go into jumpflying for the pecunia's...

fencehopper

12th Nov 2009, 09:04

Interesting thread.
Been around the DZ scene for long time. so have have seen it all i suppose when it comes to operators and how they pay their staff. The commercial side of jumping has changed greatly since the tandem concept started becoming popular around the late eighties. resort style drop zones started popping up all over the place catering for just tandems. The traditional old club theme exists only at a few Drop Zones. Amazing how the tandem masters packers the few video flyers that are left since "handcam" started, sound just like you guys. the get st##ed around just like you. not quite working for free but having the risk of losing your job to someone else willing to do it, if you complain. so pretty simple if you work for a full on tandem op in any type aircft you must get paid a decent return. even if only for the responsibility of flying human cargo under sometimes iffy conditions ect. How you land the job and if you have other duties beside flying to earn your bucks then that is up to you if you want to accept it. job satisfaction thats a personal choice. but flying a perfect sortie is as complex as flying any 'Heavy' and pulling them off brought a smile to my face. but when it comes to clubs and i belong to one of the oldest, you will possibly find now that if the aircraft is hired in it usually comes with the pilot. club owned aircraft tend to be flown by either club members rotating around loads or local retired types who just want to finish up with some back to basic flying. i've been to many many boogies, some just as wild as the "guns and flames" presentation all over the country jumping free and getting plenty of right seat time just for pumping jet A and making sure no one walked into a prop. i've also seen plenty of people riped off wage and condition wise in many places and the reason is nobody will stand up and insist on fair and just remunation. there will always be someone who will come along and undercut you. until that link is broken the problems will always remain. It is only recentley these pump um out DZ's were being made to pay superanuation to there staff.
to the guys who would love to trade caravan hrs for the Porter you going to be peeved you read this. just from pumping fuel i managed the folowing
15hrs porter, 55hrs turbine beaver, 25hrs nomad, and 400hrs of real quality time in twin otters KZP, KZQ. admitedly just right seat time but never would have had any other hope in hell of flying them any other way or learning the flying skills i have today. shame this century has been so serious just no real fun left in it now.

framer

12th Nov 2009, 11:50

Correct, it can be very demanding. That's why one should only do so because he or she truly enjoys it (hobby). Otherwise it is a long, stressfull and dreadfull day.
JIP I have to disagree with you. By your thinking if something is demanding you shouldn't do it. I like demanding, very boring otherwise. I wouldn't fly jump planes as a hobby but I don't think I shouldn't do it. (also your logic).
I never found it to be dreadful, just good honest hard work sometimes. Thats ok, nothing wrong with that when you're earning up to $500 a day. horses for courses I guess.
regards,
Framer

aseanaero

12th Nov 2009, 12:02

Got into a dogfight over the DZ once with the other jump plane , I was on the way down and passed by the other aircraft quite close (the other pilot saw me coming and we had formated on each other many times) and surprisingly the climbing aircraft broke off the climb chased me for a few thousand feet.

Both pilots and skydivers enjoyed it , manifest and committee were not impressed , but it still puts a smile on my face.

Lots of magic moments , incredible last load sunsets , formation cross country positioning flights , chasing sheep off the runway , all great stuff. How do you put a price on memories like that ? For me it was worth it .

.

framer

13th Nov 2009, 02:54

Yeah dog-fighting in a para aircraft presumably with pax on one of them isn't for me. As soon as the situation presented itself to me I would have thought "we haven't planned this, here comes a f#ck-up".

aseanaero

13th Nov 2009, 07:51

Yeah you're right framer it shouldn't have happened and I did the wrong thing but it was the hard core skydivers on board that egged the other pilot on.

It's like the old days of skydivers grabbing the keys on the way out ... which was before my time

the air up there

13th Nov 2009, 12:39

It's like the old days of skydivers grabbing the keys on the way out

Had that happen to me when I meat bombed a few years ago. Always had the spare set in the flight manual in the glove box. Hid them when I shutdown, the jumpers never knew how I kept it going.:}:ok:

D-J

13th Nov 2009, 22:08

It's like the old days of skydivers grabbing the keys on the way out

I would imagine now days if they did that, they would be kicked off the DZ

aseanaero

13th Nov 2009, 22:51

Hid them when I shutdown, the jumpers never knew how I kept it going.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

good one !

J.I.P

15th Nov 2009, 06:59

YouTube - Bud Light Commercial Skydiving (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmotlurx0EM)

Berry Berry Naaiisss....

Results may vary

29th Oct 2012, 21:16

Hey guys, had a read through this old thread. Anyone know what the current go is for low timers trying to get into para dropping in oz??

Cheers

Elevator Driver

29th Oct 2012, 22:23

Not much has changed, pay is still sh1t to non existent as a low timer.

If you do get into skydiving get out & head north once you've got 500hrs TT
like I should have done :ugh:

Results may vary

29th Oct 2012, 22:29

Oh bugger, do I sense some regret there? :)

How far nth are we talking? I've heard there's heaps of para ops all up the east side of oz, is this where you mean?

Cheers

seneca208

29th Oct 2012, 23:38

I think what he means is it's a crappy job with low/nil pay. Get some 206/182 time paradropping and once you hit 500TT, it'll make your life easier when you head to Broome/Darwin/Kununurra to find a charter/scenic job.

aseanaero

30th Oct 2012, 05:33

Good flying and fun but get in and get out as suggested, nobody really respects meat bomber time in charter or airlines.

Lots of good experiences, the worst was pressure to drop in bad weather or the jumpers wanting to fly when the plane had a problem. You need to know your limits and be stubborn about it, lot's of 'hero' jump pilots got into trouble or died trying to please the crowd in the past.

Good luck !

Results may vary

30th Oct 2012, 06:34

Cheers guys, so what's the deal over here with PPL drop pilots now, have the rules changed yet?

L0u0k0e

30th Oct 2012, 07:19

PPL is still ok, min 200TT, 100PIC, 10 on type.

More info here (http://www.apf.asn.au/Forms---Publications/Pilots-and-Aircraft/default.aspx) , or download the APF Jump Pilot manual here. (http://www.apf.asn.au/ArticleDocuments/123/OPS%20Jump%20Pilots%20and%20Aircraft%20Ops%2020101025.pdf.as px)

Results may vary

30th Oct 2012, 08:04

Cheers ears!

the_rookie

30th Oct 2012, 08:19

hey guys, read through this thread and noticed that people have posted that para ops is difficult. How is this so? Is it due to the dramatic change to the COG? Have no knowledge on any of this stuff but sounds like fun and challenging stuff.
Cheers

MakeItHappenCaptain

30th Oct 2012, 10:02

Lots of good experiences, the worst was pressure to drop in bad weather or the jumpers wanting to fly when the plane had a problem. You need to know your limits and be stubborn about it, lot's of 'hero' jump pilots got into trouble or died trying to please the crowd in the past.

And while there are pilots willing to fly for nothing, (and in doing so, only prolonging the lifetime of the practice), the operators will continue to pressure the pilots with (veiled or blatant) threats of "if you won't do it, there are plenty of other desperates out there who will."

Purely aimed at the freebies....
At least whores get paid.:cool:

deadcut

30th Oct 2012, 14:01

What's this for needing 500TT in broome etc? I got job TT 250 couple of weeks ago.

Results may vary

31st Oct 2012, 00:10

What's this for needing 500TT in broome etc? I got job TT 250 couple of weeks ago.

How'd you rangle that? :eek:

deadcut

31st Oct 2012, 04:48

Knocking on doors mate. Nobody here asks for 500TT

Results may vary

31st Oct 2012, 05:06

Sounds interesting, can you please PM me some suggestions..... :)

NzCaptainAndrew

31st Oct 2012, 05:59

Beggars arnt choosers. If you don't have the hours then your'e not going to be the one deciding the pay. - There is always another pilot out there to replace you.

That said - you shouldn't work for free.

NzCaptainAndrew

31st Oct 2012, 06:05

and as for jobs in parachute ops -

I landed my first gig in a 206 with just over 200TT and no 182/206 exp.

200hours later I'm flying at a extremely successful DZ flying 20+hours a week (between two pilots!) and will be getting into a c208 soon :)

The trick is to start small, very small and then when you have more time move on to bigger and better. Bigger and faster.

SpyderPig

31st Oct 2012, 08:04

I'm sorry but I have zero respect for anyone who works for free. There are jobs out there if your willing to go looking for work and not sell your soul just to stay east. Remember if you work for free then your next job with someone else who pays below the award won't seem as bad because "at least I'm getting paid something". It affects all of us because it becomes the norm.

I landed my first job with 210 hours with no 200 series time and a mecir and on my second job now.

I know this has all been said before but it REALLY annoys me! Rant over.

Capt Fathom

31st Oct 2012, 10:04

210 hrs and a MECIR.

What is the point of a MECIR with that level of inexperience.

As a GA pilot, in average GA equipment, it is the most dangerous flying you will ever do.

An MECIR.... Waste of time and money at that stage of your career!

the_rookie

31st Oct 2012, 11:00

Since no one responded before, why exactly is it dangerous??

Results may vary

31st Oct 2012, 11:49

Without trying to open a big 'ol can of worms here, I can see both sides of the whole paid and unpaid drop pilot argument, and I can see the frustration of professional pilots needing to be paid. Say you were a PPL or low time CPL with the required mins for drop flying, you had a good job (to pay off the CPL etc). As a PPL or fresh CPL there are very limited opportunities to fly for free (although some apparently get lucky), and I'm sure we all agree that by the time you get to 200hrs you are over shelling out your hard earned cash for every flying hour.

If your only chance for free hours was unpaid, how many people do you honestly think would turn it down. I'm not siding with the dodgy operators who exploit and threaten unpaid pilots but, if it came down to only being able to afford a hand full of hrs per year for the next few years till the bills are paid OR lots of free unpaid hours on your weekends, I know what most people would choose.

Moving from the bigger city's isn't easy for everyone and people just have to make the best of what they have available at the time, and that may involve unpaid flying to enable them to get where they want to be. All of us here have a great passion to fly but unfortunately it's not much of a gentleman's game and you don't see many people standing aside from a gig just so they don't upset the apple cart.....

Just telling it how it is......

MakeItHappenCaptain

31st Oct 2012, 11:56

Let's see....
Nagambie 208, meat bomb prematurely deployed, wrapped around the tail (removing it). Jumper died, pilot (miraculously) crawled up the back and got out with less than 1000' to go. Wife had bought him a safety chute recently.

Willowbank 206, 5 fatalities. EFATO. Pilot flew into tree and then dam. Pilot amongst deceased. Killed one of my mates (RIP, Irish).

Fletcher in NZ recently, multiple fatalities. Outside CofG limits. Pilot amongst deceased. No survivors.

Starting to get the picture?

The Willowbank pilot wasn't even properly into his twenties, wasn't getting paid, has no super, no insurance or death payouts and is DEAD. Fcuk that.:=

I speak from experience, as I was once one of those who flew for free to get experience, but all it did was teach me how to climb and sideslip and introduced that many bad habits and made me that rusty with all other aspects of flying that I decided I to do an instructor rating to straighten myself out.

Getting a MECiR early at least starts the number of renewals counting up, but recommend you at least do a NVFR as part of your CPL. :ok:
Closer to an instrument rating than VFR anyway and the school's just lining you up for more hours after your CPL if they haven't done it as part of.:hmm:

SpyderPig

31st Oct 2012, 12:04

I got my mecir so that when I do have the opportunity to upgrade I can, instead of having to go away and gain it and/or try and save for it on a ga wage. I don't find it a waste of money because I learnt some valuable skills and feel it made me a better rounded pilot. I suppose your against new cpls doing their atpls because their years away from flying an airliner?

Bottom line is there is paid work out there, I can't understand spending thousands to get a cpl then working for free. You have earned the right to be paid!

MakeItHappenCaptain

31st Oct 2012, 12:08

And while there are pilots who keep working for nothing the drop zones will have a steady supply of free and nasties to keep screwing over every pilot who hasjust paid $30K+ to get a license to fly what is blatantly a commercial operation.

I went back to one drop zone I slutted at (remember whores get paid:cool:) and thought, yeah, the flying was fun. Why not fly one for old times sake?

Halfway up remembered what a fcuked up piece of siht that thing was. Lucky the radio sorta worked, cause the TC didn't, the alt was set 2000' high to rip the tandems off....
Bring on AoCs. At least then there would be some control over the industry, cause at the moment, CASA couldn't give two sihts.
Rant out.

Actually, at least there are now drop tickets and some form of awareness about the dangers (well, maybe not on here), but there's still a long way to go.

GoCompany

31st Oct 2012, 13:29

210 hrs and a MECIR.

What is the point of a MECIR with that level of inexperience.

...

An MECIR.... Waste of time and money at that stage of your career!

Really? I've known too many people who have got their first jobs in a company with chances for progression, done their share of single time, and then been screwed over when a twin spot opened up just because they didn't have the endorsement or rating, and the singles were too busy to get time off to do the training. Someone starting off who has the rating is in a much better position to move up into a twin job, and all the company needs to do is fill a single engine spot. I can think of worse things to "waste" money on!

romeocharlie

31st Oct 2012, 22:42

It's the operators that don't pay anything that should be ashamed of themselves. It's so difficult to not be emotional about this when the only person who would give you a job expects you to turn up for months, refuel planes and then you might get the 'opportunity' to work for free getting 10hrs/week in overloaded death traps. I've seen and been apart of the good and bad of skydiving jobs, and if anything it is improving. The first person I worked/slaved for called it 'character building.' He deserves to have his aircraft burn to the ground with him in it.

For the record, the Nagambie incident was very sad, but all involved were very experienced and it was design error that caused the reserve to get caught. Also Baz's chute was made by a mate, and his wife made him wear it.

Good luck to all those searching for jobs, if I had my time again I would've gone up north a lot earlier than I did.

fencehopper

1st Nov 2012, 05:18

Our drop zone hires in turbine aircraft from another operator and they also do our tandooms. Their pilots are paid for their flying, have a commercial ticket, and the aircraft are maintained accordingly. All our jumpers have been weighed ready to jump and these weights are recorded in the manifest's computer. each load is totalled for W&B. Never had a problem with being overweight for the turbines but it can be a problem with C182's ect.
This weighing of jumpers came about after the Willowbank accident.
Looking for a jump pilot position then stick with the bigger operators.
FH

Geordieaviator

1st Nov 2012, 13:08

Regarding the professionalism and safety of PPLs doing paradropping, at my drop zone in the eight years I have been flying there an amassing a modest 1,600 hours (about 2,400 "sectors") we have seen a few incidents. All of them involved CPLs/ATPLs whereas the PPLs have a flawless safety record. Now this is only one drop zone but just to assume that PPLs are unsafe is an unprofessional viewpoint unless it is supported by statistics. In our case the facts strongly suggest that PPLs are the safest. Why that is is a separate debate

MakeItHappenCaptain

1st Nov 2012, 16:20

The Willowbank report made note of the fact there was no evidence of when the pilot last conducted any emergency training and that different prices were being charged for different heights. It essentially queried why this wasn't classed as a commercial op.
BLOOD OATH

At least under a commercial op, there are regular proficiency checks once a year. Do ALL of the drop zones do this, and if not, why not?

Sprog
Were your incidents CPL pilot induced or CPL pilot rectified?

Geordieaviator

4th Nov 2012, 17:46

We do checks every six months
All the incidents I mentioned were CPL induced.
As I said, this is only one drop zone so n=1 but before anyone starts to accuse PPLs of being unsafe jump pilots, let's see the statistics first. I may be wrong but will only stand happily corrected by facts not opinions

Anthill

4th Nov 2012, 23:02

I used to work at a GA company based at MB. This company supplied pilots and aircraft for skydiving operations at Leongatha and Pukkapunyl. The pay for skydiving was $20 'flag fall' (to turn up) and $10 per flying hour (mid 1980's). Accomodation and meals supplied by the skydiving club/business. As well as supply pilots for skydiving, the company also did VFR and IFR chrter and airwork: the casual rates were $80 for 2 hr banner tow, $125 for VFR charter and $175 for IFR.

As a PPL, I also flew at Packenham for a club (no-business) on the C206 and later the BN2. They supplied $20 for petrol and meals/accomodation.

I very much enjoyed flying and working with the skydivers. I also learned a lot about wx assessment, general aircraft handling and engine management beyond what beyond what I would have gleened by straight and level flying. I never flew without a Slimpac (google VH RPZ Packenham). Thems' were good times...;)

I also acted at a gliding club as Tugmaster. Every week some one would ring me at home and ask to fly the tug. I always explained that the clunb policy was that tugpilots were active glider pilots and club memebers. If they were happy to join the club and learn to glide them we would be happy to use their skills as a power pilot to fly the tug.

Of the dozens that contacted me regarding flying the tug, NOT ONE person joined the club; they just wanted to build some hours and move on. Hour building in this way was something that didn't suit either me as Tugmaster or the club, so I suppose a mutually agreed position was reached. Anyway, we had plenty of club memebers who could fly the tug, so who cared? We didn't.

What did amaze me was the number of people who got nasty when I said that it was expected that tugpilots join the club. There were some who suggested that this was exploitation. Some said that they expected to be paid even though they held a PPL. One memorable kid who came out to BCS (in a new BMW with P plates) said that he would seek a "dispensation from the CAA" (as it was then) so he could fly the tug in defiance of what were club rules!:rolleyes: