Reasons to scream 'Mayday' out the mic

[Ocampo]

I know...I know, may sound obvious, but I'm interested to know which other causes maybe considered as 'emergency'. Here goes a few (the most obvious, I think):

- Loss of 50% of thrust (read as engine-out)
- Loss of all but one electric power generator (I believe Batteries are not included as an electric power generator)
- Partial or complete loss of any of the primary flight controls
- One of the on board people's life is at danger (medical issues)
- Hijacking (Duh!)
- Physical damage of the aircraft structure
- Loss of (any?) flight instruments when on IMC
- Shortage of fuel. I don't know a "time figure" that describes "shortage", though. A ball park figure for me would be running on the last 30 mins of fuel, but I'd guess there's a number that states "emergency".

Well, that's all of I can think of right now. I hope to get some interesting answers as is usual on this site.

Thanks!

[411A]

....scream 'Mayday' ...

Hmmm, screaming....must be something new from the 'CRM' department:rolleyes::}

[lomapaseo]

Move this to Jetblast and it will get a lot more developmental answers

[GA715]

I would declare a pan pan for a couple on that list. :suspect:

[Ocampo]

Hmmm, screaming....must be something new from the 'CRM' department

HAHAHAHA!

Inside your head you may wanna scream...Well...you get the point ;)

I would declare a pan pan for a couple on that list.

May I ask which ones? :)

Thanks

[Bealzebub]

This is really what you need to know.
States of Emergency

The states of emergency are classified as follows:

a) Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and
of requiring immediate assistance.

b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of
some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance.

The pilot should make the appropriate emergency call as follows:
a) Distress ‘MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY’
b) Urgency ‘PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN.

You can digest Annex 10 volume 2 of the Chicago convention, and all of the ICAO member national variances to your hearts content. A few people get their knickers in a knot over the subtleties and nuances of each and every aspect. In reality and in practice, it becomes a judgment call for the pilot in command on the day, or it is obvious in accordance with company procedures in the event. One thing that some people need to appreciate is that you are not going to be put on trial, charged, or suffer a fine or penalty because of the honest judgment you make in this respect at the time. You can upgrade or downgrade your initial assessment at any time. The same event may elicit a different response in two different people.

The point of the call or the prefix, is that you are communicating an emergency to somebody else on the radio. Normally this will be to ATC. Sometimes it might be to another aircraft. On occaissions it may be to any unknown station that is monitoring, and has the ability to relay your message and request for assistance.

The initial point is that you are communicating on the radio, so the first thing you do not do is "scream!" That would certainly distort your message, and delay the imperative in what you are seeking to achieve. The second point is that you are the one with the emergency, or the emergency message to convey. It is therefore your assessment that matters, and it is up to you which prefix you feel is appropriate in your given set of circumstances. The person receiving the message will only act on the information you transmit. Whatever protocols they then initiate will be based on your given prefix and assessment.

As an example, imagine an inexperienced private pilot or student pilot becomes uncertain of his position. After trying to orientate himself he realizes he is lost. He knows there is a large international airport in the general vicinity, because his instructor once showed him how to call up for a transit. So he calls up for radar assistance. The controller who is busy with a string of airliners in train, and even more about to be handed over to him, advises that he is too busy to assist at this time. The pilot then prefixes his request with PAN PAN PAN. Now this gets the controllers attention on an entirely different level. The urgency of the call will result in whatever resources are required to provide the now obvious assistance that is required. The pilot who acted in a timely manner also is able to resolve his difficulty before his problem becomes a potential crisis, such as running low on fuel when inevitably a mayday call would be required. On the other hand if the weather was worsening, or the pilot felt that other factors were loading his ability, or he was concerned about fuel, then the initial call made might well be a mayday. There are so many variables that it is impossible to define what is the "proper" or correct prefix in every circumstance.

To take a few of your examples:
Loss of 50% of thrust (read as engine-out)
I think in most cases it would be entirely appropriate to use a mayday prefix. certainly if there was a fire. There are also issues of significant performance loss and workload that warrant as assesment of significant or imminent danger that would be helped by ATC giving you the priority that this situation might warrant. Once the situation had been regularised and the workload reduced some might choose to downgrade the emergency to a PAN. Some might not.
Loss of all but one electric power generator (I believe Batteries are not included as an electric power generator) This might be time and location dependent. In a situation where a diversion to a nearby airfield was required with one functioning generator and up to 30 minutes of battery backup there is no particular imminent danger. It is possible other factors on a given day, or at a particular location might cause a crew to think otherwise though?
One of the on board people's life is at danger (medical issues) Again it depends on the circumstances. Certainly if it was necessary to descend and land at a nearby airfield in busy airspace then a Mayday call should normally get the seas to part for you. On the other hand if the person was receiving treatment or medical attention on board, or a better planned arrival made the need for assistance less time critical in your judgment then a PAN call might be more appropriate. The level of emergency can always be changed as necessary.
Partial or complete loss of any of the primary flight controls
A complete loss of a primary control would almost certainly constitute a situation of serious or imminent danger. A partial loss would depend on the circumstances. Again a judgment call on the day.
Hijacking (Duh!)
Indeed.
Physical damage of the aircraft structure
Well this could be anything from bird strike dent, to a lightning strike, to a broken window, to a panel falling off, to a hydraulic system leak, to an upset, to a collision! It depends on the circumstances on the day. Call it as you see fit, if at all.
Loss of (any?) flight instruments when on IMC
This depends on what, where, who, how. Loss of particular instruments may be of significant importance to a single pilot in a small aircraft. Some instruments of more importance than others. On the other hand in a Boeing 757 with triple backup systems and two pilots, the loss of one or more instruments may warrant little more than a tech log entry, and be nothing to concern anybody else or constitute any sort of emergency.
Shortage of fuel. I don't know a "time figure" that describes "shortage", though. A ball park figure for me would be running on the last 30 mins of fuel, but I'd guess there's a number that states "emergency".
Notwithstanding the initial example I provided, there clearly is a default imperitive for running low on fuel reserves. For airline operations these may well differ, but expecting to reach final reserve fuel (30 mins) before reaching your diversion alternate, would normally warrant ATC's attention with a PAN, and actually reaching the last 30 minutes of fuel, a MAYDAY.

The point I am trying to convey, is that apart from the painfully obvious, the call prefix you use, is based on your judgement at that point in time. It is not based on anybody elses, nor is it open to debate in any way that actually matters. An emergency will be a stressful and busy time for the pilot or crew, and communicating that emergency will help enable other people to properly assist, get other traffic safely out of your way, and hopefully make your resolution of that task easier and more effective. As with anything dynamic, things can change for the better or worse, and time will often allow for more accurate assessments. It is quite acceptable to change, upgrade, downgrade or cancel the emergency status as you as the reporter see fit.

[Ocampo]

Thank you very much for your complete reply. Point taken :ok:

Somehow I understood somewhere else that you gave specific calls (Mayday or Pan Pan) depending on certain specific circumstances.

BTW, the "scream" thing was a joke, I was teached that the best way to deal with your emergencies was with your head cold, calm, and being always objective.

[BOAC]

There are certain countries (some in Mainland Europe) where it is said that 'Panne' is not understood(:)). I would suggest that preference (where there is doubt) would be for 'M'aidez' to focus attention and then downgrade if appropriate as Bea says. All spoken in a calm, measured, 'BBC' type voice, of course.

[Riccardo]

On a lighter note i know the term "mayday" is derived from the french "m'aidez" meaning "help me", so where does "Pan" come from - surely you wouldn't shout "bread, bread, bread" down the mic........:O

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

50% loss of power.... I've had a few of those as a controller and heard neither Mayday nor PAN calls associated with them. Once during fog an A310 made two go-arounds at Heathrow. On the third he said he had lost an engine and wished to divert to Manchester, which he did. He did not sound in the least bit perturbed!

I've also had a couple of cases of loss of 50% of crew - Captain or F/O incapacitated. Far from screaming into the mic, one F/O simply said: "Be gentle with me, I'm all alone as the Captain has been taken ill".

[Microburst2002]

Screaming is no good.
Except in the movies. Movie pilots look like complete idiots and they scream a lot.
Did Captain Sully scream?
No!
If I was in his situation, well...
I would try to appear calm. There is people who just flies the airplane and is so calm! "We have lost thrust in both engines" and "We may end up in the Hudson". It explains it all.
Just that, calm as if he had said "Oh, how inconvenient! I will get wet and it is very cold. We'll I get a flu?"
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[BOAC]

so where does "Pan" come from - surely you wouldn't shout "bread, bread, bread" down the mic........http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif - you could always look at post #8:ugh:

[draughtsman99]

so where does "Pan" come from - surely you wouldn't shout "bread, bread, bread" down the mic........http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gifPan-pan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan)

Says it all really.

[p51guy]

Mayday is an emergency call that should only be used in a dire emergency. In the US just declaring an emergency does the same thing but internationally that is the proper phraseology for some reason. Say mayday if it makes you feel good but it really doesn't matter an iota from just saying you are on fire and returning or you have an emergency. Both accomplish the same thing.

[p51guy]

For instance a pilot friend flying an airliner had to return to land overweight and his interpetation of our ops manual was you had to declare an emergency. Yelling mayday for that would make him sound pretty stupid.

[john_tullamarine]

Not expressing a personal view one way or the other.

However, the use of "Mayday", in particular, accords with International Convention and provides some basis in law, I would imagine, for a demand on subsequent ground action/assistance.

[FullWings]

Issuing an *immediate* distress call would depend on whether anyone can actually help you there and then, I'd have thought. If there's spare capacity, fine, but if the pilot(s) are working 110% to keep the aircraft from doing something terminal then waiting for a reduction in the workload might be prudent. Even with things such as emergency descents and Atlantic turnbacks, the priority is aircraft control, followed by communication.

I've been witness to some extremely pedantic discussions over the use of PAN over MAYDAY and vice-versa. At the end of the day, who gives a **** as you can always change your mind about your status later. Unless I was operating in central Europe, I'd use the M-words every time as the other option is often not understood and/or leads to an extended conversation.

I agree that in English speaking countries, yelling "Help! Help! We're on fire!" or whatever would have the desired effect but in places where the mother tongue is radically different, this may lead to a large question mark (or whatever punctuation they use) appearing over the head of whoever you're speaking to and possibly no action taken.

[Microburst2002]

Also, everybody will listen to a Mayday and will not interrupt the ATC when they start helping. That is why I think it is better to say it (or pan pan if it suits better).
If you just state that you have an emergency in plain language some pilots in the frequency could miss that and make untimely calls.
Anyhow, a crew in distress will do what they have to do, then let know the ATC what they are doing and what are their short term intentions. And this, only after they have controlled the flight path and speed.
Then they can isolate the problem, make a decision and finally contact ATC again and state what are their further intentions and say what they need from the ATC.
It can be very helpful to sqwak emergency if you don't have time to speak with the ATC because they will take care of separating traffics on your way. If you don't know what to say, sqwak 7700.
Although now you have TCAS if they are not aware of the problem and you are deviating from the flight plan and or level. But don't forget to put it at TA ONLY if you are unable to climb.
But this is another thread: when to sqwak 7700?

[Slasher]

Try this Micro

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/22100-do-you-have-squawk-7700-a.html

[Harry Burns]

well, there are pro's and con's for everything - but I would certainly assume that you (if you have to) scream Mayday into the mic and not out of it.

HB

[Ocampo]

well, there are pro's and con's for everything - but I would certainly assume that you (if you have to) scream Mayday into the mic and not out of it.

Oh, come on, mate. I'm 20 years old and English is my second language. I'm glad I can even spell :O

[awblain]

My understanding is that PAN is derived from `en panne', `broken down' rather than anything bready. As you say, MAYDAY from `m'aidez' `help me', rather than either international workers' holidays or fertility rites.

[Lomon]

The use of Mayday and Pan also has repercussions in the chain of events taken on the ground (at least in the UK)

When informed of an airborne emergency the Aeronautical Rescue Co-ordination Centre take different actions for Distress and Urgency calls, things like informing local police, fire and ambulance units, bringing SAR helicopters to readiness, or even getting them in the air in anticipation of an incident. Informing the coast guard if there is a possibility of ditching, or mountain rescue teams for landing in the hills. They can even scramble a Nimrod to drop life rafts and other survival stores over ditched aircraft.

[Checkboard]

You call "Pan" if you want to bypass the traffic for a priority landing.

You call "Mayday" if you think it possible that, if things go badly, you may need fire and rescue services on the scene.

For anything else, I wouldn't bother ATC at all.

[allyn]

Thomson birdstrike in Manchester

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[mary meagher]

Crossing water in a 172, abeam the Florida panhandle, having filed IFR, it came to my attention that one of the fuel gauges read full, the other one read empty! This caused me to lose my concentration a bit, so I wandered off track. Center observed my deviation, and enquired

"November 43885, you are 20 degrees off track, is there a problem?"

"Well, actually, I may have a problem with fuel......" (wondering if perhaps there was a wasp nest blocking the air vent, or gunge in the fuel, or some such..)

Center came back with relish at once. This could make his day! With eagerness, he enquired "Would you like to declare an emergency?"

Well, the engine was running fine, I wasn't lost, and it was still right side up.
"Not at this time, thank you".

"Would you like to proceed to an airport? We could suggest Tallahassee"

"Thank you, that sounds like a good idea." Being over water, I was at my customary maximum altitude of c. 11,000'.

"November 43885, heading 350, descend to 3,000 feet" instructed the controller.

"Negative! If I'm going to be a glider, I want to be as high as possible!"

"Roger, November 43885, we have cleared the airspace for you inbound to Tallahassee from eleven thousand feet down to the ground!" What a sensible controller! When I had the airfield within 172 final glide, I came straight in, to be greeted by all the fire engines etc, who followed me to the fuel station with care and solicitude. Of course the only problem was the fuel gauges, typically wonky in a Cessna. You notice things like that when you are flying over open water. . . . .

I did call a mayday once, but that was in a boat. It does get their attention.

[Bealzebub]

That is all well and good in an English speaking environment, with everybody focused on your particular problem. However it does rely on the nuances of language, which are less honed in non native English speaking environments.

If Avianca flight 052 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_52) had reverted to standard international (and this was an international flight) terminology in order to convey the deteriorating nature of his fuel situation, that disaster might well have been avoided. Words such as "priority" often become subject to translative interpretation.

An American pilot flying in the UK or a UK pilot flying in the USA, will readily tell you how very different are the R/T procedures and realities that they experience in the other environment. Without doubt, the USA has a massive domestic air transport structure, and it has clearly evolved in a manner that makes only minimal consideration for the wider global theatre. The UK is a small island surrounded by many other nations with an enormous variety of different native languages. In this environment the vital necessity of standardisation and adherence to more defined protocols has evolved.

The use of emergency R/T prefixes, should minimize the confusion that often results from the nuance of intonement or the use of language that may not convey the same imperative, when being used by pilots or controllers for whom English is not a first language. Even as in the UK/USA example, the speed, accent, subtlety and nuance of a (basically the same) language, has the ability to cause much confusion when applied to the alien culture.

Many pilots will adapt and change as they cross 30 West. UK pilots flying West will often adopt the clipped and rapid style of their hosts, often quite badly. conversely many US pilots flying East will slow down their more common "auctioneers patter" to a pace that sounds like the "batteries are running out!"

In theory, the use of a mayday call should convey the same imperative in London as it does in L.A or Lagos, Libreville, Lima, or anywhere else. It may be less customary or more unusual in the USA, but if anbody uses it, or indeed had Avianca used it approaching JFK that unpleasant evening, I doubt the imperative would have been lost on the receiving controllers.

An emergency isn't about your ability to accurately convey the correct choice of prefix. It is about dealing with the emergency! Nevertheless communication at many levels will play a vital part in the sucessful outcome of that emergency. As the necessity to communicate with ATC and possibly others over the radio fits into the priority, the use of either of these phrases will start the application of the appropriate procedures. Time may not allow an accurate assesment of the emergency, and the situation can be upgraded, or downgraded as necessary. It is also worth remembering that individuals will revert back to what is instinctive (albeit modified by training or reinforcement) when confronted by situations of high stress. In these situations the communication of an emergency should be simple and standardised.

I am making no criticism of what works in the USA, or of what has evolved into standard practice. But given the global nature of the industry, it is important that procedures generally, and certainly emergencies, are likely to be properly understood and appreciated by those involved, wherever they occur in the world.

[PappyJ]

There aren't many times (if any) where screaming anything into a mic will be of any benefit.

So far as the use of "Pan" and "Mayday" are concerned, several folks have in this forum have already addressed the differences of meaning of both terms; all well and good if both the sender (Pilot) and receiver (ATC) have a satisfactory understanding of both those terms, and of English in general.

But, what happens when:

You're operating within China (or Indonesian, Columbo, or any other that may come to mind) and you experience a problem?

In the USA, EU, Canada, etc, you could probably say something to the effect of, "...XXX center, we just lost 3 of 4 generators and need ....whatever assistanc..." and get an appropriate response.

Making such as statement within many ATC areas in the world (China, Indonesia and Vietnam come to mind) will get you a response similar to "...Station calling (wherever) say again your call sign..." ZERO understanding outside of the norm!

In these places, the only statement that they WILL understand is the word "mayday". Even Singapore's ATC - which is supposed to be so "advanced", etc - would not understand anything but a "mayday" or "pan" call.

The bottom line. Don't be afraid to use it (Pan or Mayday) if YOU feel it necessary.

[Tight Slot]

here here. Yep I would said you're bang on there. If one does get into bother, then put out a Mayday or Pan or god knows what, just as long as the ATC unit in that area knows damn well what is going on. That is the main thing.

I've Pan panned in in the states once, the guy in ATC had no idea what I wanted (engine out IMC in a twin) so I promtley said Mayday! Worked a treat!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Test flying a prototype light single with about 20 hours on the airframe, just joined the circuit on a wide left base, No.5 in a very congested circuit. I was in the right hand seat, Wyvern (not seen him around Pprune for a while) in the left.

Sudden loud thumping from just in front of our feet, very brief cockpit conversation:

Wyvern: What's that?
Genghis: Don't know, might it be the engine?
Wyvern: Certainly might be!

Whereupon Wyvern called a very calm mayday, possible engine problem, and requested priority for an immediate landing.

We were given that and the next bit was visually quite comical - without being asked, the four aeroplanes in front of us went left-right-left-right as they all initiated their own go-arounds.

We landed safely, taxied back in, to find to our relief that a non-critical bungee in the undercarriage had failed and decided to play a drum beat on the underside of the cockpit.


We removed the bungee, went over to the tower to thank them, and explained (with props) that "the elastic band had snapped".

G

[NVpilot]

Totatally agree with PappyJ, where I operate in Asia, the less information you try to give ATC, the better. Have you ever tried doing a relay for someone in Asia, ATC ususally will do their best to cover up most of the effort. :ugh:

[TyroPicard]

PappyJ
In the USA, EU, Canada, etc, you could probably say something to the effect of, "...XXX center, we just lost 3 of 4 generators and need ....whatever assistanc..." and get an appropriate response.If you were talking to London they would say "are you declaring an emergency?" - so you might as well start with the word Mayday and save time.