Please Mr Obama?

[Chancros]

I am a newbie, but please don't go easy on me!

Over recent weeks there has been much talk about helos and Afghanistan. Some well informed views here (unlike 'out there'). However, one thing that has not come up is the issue of what use the UK could make of the VH-71A's that Obama no longer wants.

There are half a dozen plus production airframes in the US looking for a use. They have BERP IV, presumably good protection (active and passive) and powerful engines to meet hot (my experience of summer in DC) conditions.

I know they have reduced fatigue lives (due to 'savings' by not doing a full fatigue test), but if they could be got cheaply maybe they would be a better stop gap than a Puma update.

They were built at Yeovil, so could be supported from UK. I assume they would need to strip out the comms gear and do various other things. But overall, is this practical? I wonder why no one looked into it, especially as ministers were 'considering every option'? Too political?

[Chancros]

Seems the VH-71s could be got cheaply, maybe even free to save the embarassment of scrapping them. Mr Obama could then say he was supporting a key coalition partner to justify it. So HMG could get new helos at low cost.

Of course, some more Chinooks are probably what is needed/wanted, but cannot be afforded. Presumably the VH-71s would not need five years in a Boscombe Down hangar to get them ready for Helmand - similar basic avionics (displays, AFCS etc.) as existing Merlins. If the Harrier GR.9 can be updated quickly for ops, why not these VH-71s?

Maybe things are not that easy, but seems strange that this option was not discussed recently.

[dangermouse]

Not BERP4 (but fittable)
No ramp
No cargo door
Engines not used by any UK services
Fewer fuel tanks (due to BIG air con system)

Non standard cockpit displays and software

and then there's Boscombe to consider....

on the surface looks easy but looks can be decieving

DM

[Chancros]

Flightglobal and AvWeek both say VH-71a has BERP IV.

The fuselage is the rear loading type, but from photos seems the ramp is not fitted, just a 'hatch' (to escape, or shoot from?). Perhaps fitting a ramp would not be impossible.

Non UK engines may be replaceable (uprated gearbox welcome though), or supportable by some 'allied' joint working (% similar to Blackhawk engines?).

Cockpit diplays are supposedly 'reconfigurable' using new Smiths/GEAviation displays. However, Merlin HM.3A indicates training issues may arise (RAF being 'picky'? Never!)

Big air con - would troops complain (if it worked, and did allow sufficient radius, which powerful engines may allow)?

I am aware from my time working on updates to UK fixed wing platforms (including those in Afghanistan) that things can be harder than they look. But also that some things are made harder than they need to be.

Boscombe was seldom a problem in my experience, as long as you did things right in the first place.

The question is probably 'what would be better/quicker in theatre, VH-71As or updated Pumas?'

[MightyGem]

Also, who's going to fly them? I think you'll find that we don't have enough crews for what we have at the moment.

[Chancros]

Re-trained AAC Lynx crews? They have little else to do anywhere the sun shines. Or RN Commando crews?

But of course that would bring up inter-service issues. Can't have that!

So it'll have to be (ex) Puma crews. They are a lively and capable bunch.

[MightyGem]

Chancros, I think you need to read my last sentence again:
I think you'll find that we don't have enough crews for what we have at the moment.

[minigundiplomat]

Chancros,


Chinook crews - Maxed out.

Merlin crews - In El Centro on holiday, but shortly to be maxed out.

Puma crews - fulfilling all the rest of the niff naff & triv, as well as providing crews to be retrained on Chinook.

Sea Kings - Maxed out (in theatre with the Chinook)

Lynx Crews - Theatre commitments, UK commitments, acting as a feeder for Apache/Chinook.

Apache - not enough as it is.

Please listen to Mighty Gem. He knows what he's talking about, you don't!

MGD

[Helibloke]

OK this might sound a bit odd but why not recruit experienced civillian pilots. Call them special service officers recruited to fly and that is it, two week knife and fork course at Cranwell and then on to some sort of course to get them used to how the military does things. This would be much quicker than starting a new bloke with no flying experience. I would set the hour mark at about 2000 PIC. I bet you would get plenty of applications.

[SARREMF]

Good grief! next you'll say bring in reservist pilots and attract them by putting them in non deployable posts to allow full service members to deploy on ops. Or, have a 2 tier system. Generate a core cadre of non deployable pilots for the niff naff UK tasking [in what airframes?] then a deployable TA pilot cadre. No, too difficult, imagine you might have to keep them current using a zillion expensive flying hours. Simulators? Well yes the civilian world does have a rotary conversion using ONLY a simulator but that wont be allowed. So, its all too expensive really and we just struggle on. Of course, you could put all the non deployable civil pilots into SAR posts and free up the military ones to back to the front line......... oh hang on thats SAR-H!

[Chancros]

I am not saying we can 'magic up' some new crews (but clearly we need more, plus more airframes), rather that IF it were possible to use VH-71s then it would seem to make sense to crew them with the Puma pilots IF the VH-71s were used to replace some of the Pumas. Of course, training schedules would be hard to do with current operational needs, but perhaps existence of a Merlin fleet may help. Of course, Sea Kings could be replaced too, with similar disruption.

The point of this thread is to consider what is worth looking into, not just assuming the limits and ending discussion at that point. I am well aware that experienced crews are like gold, and think they deserve the best kit. I know that the Afghan role is a hell of a lot more than simple 'trucking' - with a nephew in the Army soon to redeploy there I would rather he is in a chopper than a land vehicle, if possible.

So, a bit of lateral thinking about what might me be possible, while recognising that there will, unfortunately, be limits on this. I do think that HMG is too quick to discount such an approach for fear it looks like giving commitments they later do not deliver on.

Regarding what I do or do not know, helos are not my thing, but several decades working mainly on Harriers in industry, including avionics upgrades, plus a PhD in engineering hopefully count for something. Over 20 years I have had contact, on and off, with EH101/Merlin programme (related to SHAR work), so know a bit about the technical aspects. However, most of this time has taught me to defer to crews on most operational matters, but then the Harrier crews have always been something special.

My comment about 'picky' RAF crews comes from one such, who saw the rest of the service as being obsessed with safety cases that they don't undertand. This from a former Harrier pilot who was involved in re-programming the Harrier mission computer. If only we had more like that we could close Abbey Wood!

Regarding comments on Lynx, that is via an Apache pilot I heard talk last year. Seemed to think Lynx was a waste of good crews, but I don't want to open up the 'should the AAC get all the helos?' debate!

[Data-Lynx]

Not only are MGD and the Gem right about the crew, the UK has no suitable organisation to take charge of the airframe and ECU modifications. AugustaWestland would, with maybe some justification, point out that almost all of the airframes were at different builds because of the state the aircraft were in when the cancellation was issued. Even if AW had space on the re-construction line (a big if), I suspect that the MoD would be invited to consider 'cost-plus' just to get the VH-71s to a baseline.

If no one is prepared to own the task, don't start it. Sorry to be gloomy.

[MightyGem]

Please listen to Mighty Gem. He knows what he's talking about, you don't!

Wow!! Thanks MGD. :O

[Rob To Service]

The VH-71 was designed and built purely as a VVIP aircraft and is completely unsuitable for use as a Support Helicopter. The modifications that would be required to bring it to UK standard would not happen overnight and after they had been designed, installed, trialled and released would take years not months. Besides that, there have been some reports in the US press over the last few months that Congress have now approved funding to bring 5 of the aircraft into service.