Qantas Group Unity

[WoodenEye]

Absolutely delighted to read in today's edition of AIPA Insights the following extract: An undertaking was obtained [from the company] to work collectively on career progression throughout the Qantas Group and AIPA has already commenced work on this arrangement..........this achievement was only possible with the collective assistance of the AIPA membership, and a lot of work behind the scenes from both your AIPA reps and the Company. AIPA is hopeful that the Company will keep its promise of working with us to come up with an agreement which will provide a meaningful career throughout the Qantas Group.
At long last, it looks like Qantas and all its pilots will have good reason to endorse flexibility and change that can deliver secure career progress and the most prosperity commercially achievable..

The struggle has been long & costly and at times disappointing, but at least it seems like it was worth the effort.

Bravo! :D

[missing link]

You are kidding yourself woodeneye, the boys at the top are only acting now because of the threat to them by Jetconnect and Jetstar...........covering their own arses , they could have done this years ago but they were'nt under threat.... Where were they when Jetstar pilots entered the fray ....or Qlink.........Nup, more of the same , looking after themselves first and trying to look concerned for the rest.....The dinosaurs havent woken up yet .........their time is over and are a dying race. Had they been fair dinkum and had a united group years ago - none of this would be happening now
"PULL UP THE LADDER JACK I'M OK!":{

[Spikey21]

I'll second that missing link, so flamin obvious and they think we are stupid enough to think they are sincere. Gross arrogance I reckon.

[OneDotLow]

A significant (and ever increasing) proportion of pilots were not employed by Q at the time to which you refer missing link...

Hows about a bit of a change in attitude towards this all so that we can all improve our lot in the future???

I realise (from the constant references to "that year who's name must not be spoken" that occured when close to 50% of the current Q mainline pilots were still in school :eek:) that pilots tend to hold grudges for a while, but really don't you think its time to bury the hatchet on this one and move on???

[Keg]

Spikey, missing link, seriously? The horse is well dead now. Flogging it further isn't going to achieve anything.....particularly when you think you're flogging the right horse but what you're actually flogging is a little closer to your waist. :ugh: :rolleyes:

It's been more than eight years that some of us have been on this track. Given the lack of comprehension and objectivity demonstrated by people such as you two I'm amazed that you can get to work safely let alone operate an aircraft! :*

Hopefully this will mean more opportunities for ALL group pilots.

ODL, I don't think they're referring to '89. Rather, they're referring to the Eastern's case that was being run against Australian when QF took over or even more recently, the actions of AIPA under Chris Manning back in May '01 when we bought Impulse.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Nice one Wooden eye. Look like the unpopular kid at the end of the street has a new footy now everyone wants to be his mate. Ask the eastern gurus who inhabited the swamp around the early 2000s about unity. How about CMs attitude in Sydney in 2001? The arrogance was unbelievable. Thing have changed and now its all about helping one another. Of course it is.

Man this industry attracts the roll neck skivvy set.

Doug.

[Oxidant]

At the moment, it is all just more words.......
When terms & conditions start to rise towards the Qantas EBA, for Link, J* et al, then I will congratulate all involved!
(If I have not already retired):*

[Transition Layer]

When terms & conditions start to rise towards the Qantas EBA, for Link, J* et al, then I will congratulate all involved!
(If I have not already retired)

Well there's only one Pilot's Union in Australia which is any chance of achieving this, and it sure isn't the toothless tiger AFAP! Until all QLink and Jetstar drivers are AIPA members and AIPA is a signatory to their respective awards, there is little hope.

I'm not saying AIPA is perfect but if I was in QLink or Jetstar it would be a no-brainer.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Missing Link, looking at Wooden Eye's quote it would apprear that Qantas management are equally involved. I can't see a problem with that. It seems to me like it will be good for all involved. :)

[Kipper797]

Let's face it AIPA have never done anything to enhance the pilot group. They have missed opportunity after opportuniy. They have been totally ineffective as a union . AIPA is truely a toothless tiger and now it's all too late. Just remember J* are still recruiting at max speedwhile Q still gifts routes away both internationally and domestically.Makes you wonder why any Q pilots would waste money on fees- Oh unless you are in the top 200 then you are still OK :ugh:.

[waren9]

I think you're out of touch Kipper. Keep watching AIPA and I think you'll see for yourself this to be the case.

[OneDotLow]

Keg :

I don't think they're referring to '89. Rather, they're referring to the Eastern's case that was being run against Australian when QF took over or even more recently, the actions of AIPA under Chris Manning back in May '01 when we bought Impulse.

Yeah I know. I was using it purely as a (particularly good:p) example of how some pilots can hold a grudge for a very long period of time.

Douglas McDonnell :
How about CMs attitude in Sydney in 2001? The arrogance was unbelievable.

This is the same CM who went on to screw Q pilots over by moving from AIPA president to company chief pilot and the same CM who has now left the airline for good. How you can continue to use him as the litmus test for Q pilots proves that you possibly need a change in career... God only knows how you would cope if the bureau threw an inter on the TTF 4 hours after the TAF was issued.

Oxidant :
At the moment, it is all just more words.......
When terms & conditions start to rise towards the Qantas EBA, for Link, J* et al, then I will congratulate all involved!

Yep, just sit back and watch it happen mate. Throw peanuts and the odd comment from the sidelines, but be sure never to be constructive. Why don't you get off your lazy butt, head into the office of whatever union you are a member of, and do something to improve your lot instead of sitting by and waiting for things to get better around you. And don't tell me about that one time you headed in and graciously donated a half day of your time to the union. The time is now mate! Whether it is AIPA or not, I think it is time you gave a little rather than sitting back and waiting to receive....

[Reeltime]

This is for those Qantas group pilots, not in mainline....particularly those from Qlink.

AIPA does not, and never has, controlled mainline recruitment. If you feel that you should have been offered a position in mainline, but have not...your beef is with those in charge of recruitment policy, not the membership of AIPA.

Just one more time...Qantas management does not consult with AIPA, as to who would be suitable for a position in mainline.

[Oxidant]

"OneDotLow"

Mate, Irony is obviously lost on you.:rolleyes:

[CaptCloudbuster]

Kipper797 saidOh unless you are in the top 200 then you are still OK

I note in the latest AIPA Insights that the President (an A380 Capt) Barry Jackson took a flexi line to support the efforts of those junior SO's in the firing line.:D

Well done Bazza - keep this example up and the knockers won't know who to knock anymore!:ok:

[Capt Kremin]

Human Nature 101: Humans tend the follow the easiest path instead of the most effective (and slightly more difficult) path.

We see it writ large here.

Exercise A:

Choose between the following two options as the most effective means of dealing with the current travails of the industry.

1. Become actively involved in the direction that your industrial organisation is taking. Be prepared to accept changing circumstances and attitudes as the industrial landscape unfolds. Form strategic alliances. Realise that the true enemy is not your fellow pilots.

OR,

2. Loudly whinge about actions taken by others in the distant past that, even though they may not have affected you directly, you can use to do nothing to advance your circumstances, rationalise your predjudices and generally play directly into the hands of consultants whose raison detre is to keep pilots from presenting a united front.

Your choice guys and girls.

[blow.n.gasket]

CaptCloudbuster wrote:


"I note in the latest AIPA Insights that the President (an A380 Capt) Barry Jackson took a flexi line to support the efforts of those junior SO's in the firing line.:D

Well done Bazza - keep this example up and the knockers won't know who to knock anymore!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif "

Yeah fantastic example of leadership.
One question though, how is the remuneration package for the AIPA President calculated?If there is no financial 'pain" like the rest of us are enduring then this gesture is purely stage managed theatrics.

[Dragun]

TL

The only reason Qlink most pilots remain in AFAP is for access to the MBF loss of licence insurance - currently worth $550K. I'm sure if the same deal was offered through AIPA it would definitely be a no brainer. I've heard this time and time again from Qlink pilots as to the reason they haven't made the move to AIPA. It's a shame that something as relatively minor as that (i.e. something that could be changed) is the reason we haven't made a majority move to the union that is actually active in protecting the interests of its members.

For those of you whinging about AIPA, trying being a member of AFAP and calling them about a CAREER affecting issue such as this new transfer of business legislation that is set to ruin any chance of movement/employment within the group. They DID NOT CARE ONE SCRAP! AIPA on the other hand are actively pursuing it after recognising the seriousness of the situation for group pilots.

Time to move towards ONE pilot union protecting the interests of ALL Qantas group pilots and most of us know which one that is...

Nice work Barry Jackson, keep it up :ok:

[missing link]

Not very smart are we.................... read the original quote again carefully

"An undertaking was obtained [from the company] to work collectively on career progression throughout the Qantas Group and AIPA has already commenced work on this arrangement..........this achievement was only possible with the collective assistance of the AIPA membership, and a lot of work behind the scenes from both your AIPA reps and the Company. AIPA is hopeful that the Company will keep its promise of working with us to come up with an agreement which will provide a meaningful career throughout the Qantas Group."
Its an UNDERTAKING, no promise .....no contract,
AIPA is HOPEFUL ..............Piss and wind gentlemen, ask yourselves if this would be happening if jetstar and jetconnect were not on the radar........................well you already know the answer !
For the record I am not an 89er, I have never applied to mainline , never will. I am happy with my little corner of the world, but it does amuse me to watch others now effected by recent events , do a complete 180 and push the "Qantas pilot Group" issue...............................Pathetic. No wonder the company lead you lot with empty rhetoric, talk about drowning men clutching at straws:yuk:

[Spikey21]

AIPA is HOPEFUL ..............Piss and wind gentlemen, ask yourselves if this would be happening if jetstar and jetconnect were not on the radar........................well you already know the answer !Spot on...

For the record I am not an 89er, I have never applied to mainline , never will. I am happy with my little corner of the world, but it does amuse me to watch others now effected by recent events , do a complete 180 and push the "Qantas pilot Group" issue...............................Pathetic.Me neither and agree entirely, obvious to all except the formerly protected species :ugh:

The good ol QF boys of AIPA supporting a LCC, unimaginable without the threat of a good dose of reality arriving on your front doorstep with the full support of the wee laddie to be sure.

[woftam]

Also from AIPA "During the Long Haul EBA negotiations an undertaking was given to accept the current Jetconnect operation"
WTF? :hmm:
What's THAT got to do with Long Haul? :ugh: Seems like a S/H concession to me.:suspect:

[Transition Layer]

Dragun,

I've heard the same thing from many QLink mates of mine re: LoL. Seems to me you guys are stuck between a rock and a hard place, because something like LoL is not a reason on which to choose your union representation.

As you probably know, AIPA doesn't need to provide such a policy because the QF EBAs have their own LoL provisions provided by the company.

Have you spoken to Capt G.E. (the QLink rep on the AIPA CoM) about what could be done to get some sort of policy in place with AIPA?

[CaptCloudbuster]

Blown' Wrote One question though, how is the (sic)rumuneration package for the AIPA President calculated?If there is no financial 'pain" like the rest of us are enduring then this gesture is purely stage managed theatrics.

I don't know the answer to that one Blown. Would you care to enlightlen us all?
Or are you just $hit stirring again?

From meeting Barry J I choose to see his gesture as a genuine acknowledgment that we are all in this together.

[blow.n.gasket]

Not **** stirring capt Cloudduster,
Just asking a simple question really, a question a lot of other AIPA members are starting to ponder.After all didn't you lot campaign on a platform of honesty, transparency and communication? So come on, how about a bit of that honesty and transparency could you communicate to us mere mortals how is the Presidents remuneration package calculated?
If there is already a min guaranteed component in that package with AIPA making up the difference, how is this contractual obligation going to be influenced by Barry's magnanimous offer?
Simple Question really , after all the devil is in the detail is it not?:confused:

[GlobalMaster]

HKG’s Asia Pacific Daily says:Full service carriers in particular are in disarray. Mergers are no option in bleak Asian airline environment (http://centreforaviation.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=9fd45cab90f09a9a18b2618c7&id=de5fdfb439&e=18f83c5fb3) and almost all airlines are universally deeply in the red. At present there is no obvious reason for optimism in the region’s legacy airline sector...critical to expansion of the LCC segment is the proactive liberalisation of aviation access.
Tis time you blokes downunder stoped throwing stones at each other and started to think about the LCC freight train coming your way.

You can only hope that your association's leadership comes good with the career opportunity. WoodenEye seems so proud of.

It pains me to point out the obvious, but without it, ya :mad:.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Sorry I misunderstood your post Blown.... I didn't realise you were just asking a simple question... I thought you were casting aspersions.

Lets give credit where it's due.

Here's a simple question for you:

What you would have done to manage the crisis more effectively had you still been on the Exec?

[busdriver007]

What sacrifices have you made Blow-n-gasket? How long have you been in the charlie Q, The world has changed.Many junior pilots don't know where their career are going at the moment and all you can do is throw stones...wouldn't it be better to unite your team around you and make a difference.....Were you part of the Woodeye crew? Did you get anyone a payrise...hmmmmm...let me think.

[WoodenEye]

Hmmm! In monetary terms, the EBA 8 Offer was far superior to what rolling over EBA 7 provided. (Ie: 4 x 3% & a one off 4%) compared with:

Back pay of 3% pa from 1 Jan 07,
A new B744 fleet pay structure for all LH pilots,
An increase in MGH to 175 hrs - not 160,
A increase in agreed Fleet pay rates of 3% annually,
Full CPI protection by way of a bonus bank on top of the 3% annual fleet pay increase,
Introduction of an employee share purchase plan using salary sacrifice dollars ($1.51 buy when Qantas raised capital in March- now $2.50)As its architect (Garry Duggan) says elsewhere
Just... the many benefits buried by the misinformation.:p

And when it comes to career protection, EBA8 didn't let Qantas New Zealand be used to threaten Mainline; as the EBA7 Rollover has.

IMHO, the rejection of LHEBA 8, orchestrated by political vested interests with scant regard for other than soon to be A380 Captains, is probably the greatest folly unwittingly committed by Qantas LH pilots in my 30 yrs in Qantas?

Yes, EBA 8 also required LH pilots to endorse simplicity and flexibility and it was this aspect of it, that was used to kill it.

Worry now is - that very same simplicity and flexibility is required if the Qantas Group is to prosper and Mainline compete with Jetstar.

Best solution all round means, career progress and the kicking the GOAL.

[mohikan]

Woodeneye.

Dont agree with you on a lot of things, but I do agree with your assessment of EBA 8

What I find interesting is that 'the second officers champion', that idiot 'chuck' has been NOWHERE to be seen when S/O's were recently threatened with redundancy. I'll bet my left ball he didnt take a flexi line.

What a pack of hypocrites the whole anti EBA8 crowd is - the horse trainer, DD, the whole lot of them.

We are dead men walking now. All of us. As I said to a my F/O recently, its time to begin to prepare for your career after QF. Get qualifications outside of aviation, be aware of what required for contract jobs ect ect

[Transition Layer]

mohikan,

I'll bet my left ball he didnt take a flexi line.

According to the Flexi-Line FSO released on qfflightcrew.com yesterday, Chuck has indeed taken a 150hr flexi-line.

Now, what am I going to do with your left nut? Make a nice necklace perhaps?

[Don Diego]

Dragun,the AFAP are fully occupied at the moment beating the crap out of the AAPMBF trustees so for any other important issues please don't call them until the beatings have stopped.DD.

[mohikan]

TL.

I will have to be a pretty big necklace to carry such a heavy load LOL :)

[wombat watcher]

IMHO, the rejection of LHEBA 8, orchestrated by political vested interests with scant regard for other than soon to be A380 Captains, is probably the greatest folly unwittingly committed by Qantas LH pilots in my 30 yrs in Qantas?

Not so. Not by a long shot.
The greatest folly unwittingly committed by Qantas LH pilots was electing you and your lot into power at AIPA. 3 years in the darkness.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[WoodenEye]

Even Wombats & Cyber bullies are entitled to an opinion.

Nonetheless, if what AIPA, on my watch, had to do to fend off the intended wholesale transition of the Qantas Group to APA and shut out any potential to spin off Jetstar; (matters, which were at the time understood by very few, but are now obvious to all except those who refuse to see; then public accusation of 'three years in the dark', is criticism I am very proud to cop.

Given the Work Choice legislation of the time, don’t believe there was any other way to do it. Thankfully that piece of regressive legislation is now history and the door is open for Harvard style win/win progress.

I wait with interest to see what upcoming LHEBA negotiations bring forth and whether or not the outcome is as good as what LH EBA 8 offered.

Good luck!

[Autobrakes4]

Oh yeah mohikan and IW, EBA 8 would have avoided all this stuff now........not. What planet are you guys on? :eek:
Not Earth, that's for sure. EBA 8 was smashed by over 70% of the pilot population, not 2 or 3. Or are you saying that just a few people have such a hold over the pilots that they would blindly follow them to vote the way they did. You have to face it 1500 pilots smashed the EBA and it was the best thing that ever happened....haha.
:ouch: Face it Wooden Eye, you tried and you failed and you were moved on. Don't be bitter and twisted. Enjoy your twilight years.

[Capt Kremin]

If you believe that the 3 years in the darkness were caused by AIPA, ask some of the Exec at the time about "The transcript" over a cold beer.

Have your eyes opened. The plans for the LH pilot body were in place long before Wood-eye got there. They continue to be enacted today.

[GlobalMaster]

No wonder the Brits up here still think Australia isn’t civilised.

Obviously Wombat and Autobrake’s can’t read or don’t care that it has already been pointed out that it’s time they:


stoped throwing stones and started to think about the LCC freight train.
Malicious posts only serve to raise the temperature and lift the bar for those still trying. They contribute nothing and suggest that the authors aren’t really Australians, let alone Qantas pilots. Most Australian’s I know up here, wouldn’t consider Ww and Ab suitable to represent either.

Right now, people like my brother, are sweating on the guys in AIPA implementing a career pathway that will keep them employed and get them promoted.

Please just get on with it.

[blow.n.gasket]

To Cloudduster, busdriver etal,

It doesn't matter two hoots what I think.
It doesn't matter two hoots what the guy sitting next to me thinks.
What does matter is what the majority thinks.
Unfortunately the majority sometimes gets a pretty filtered view of what's happening.
What asolutely flabbergasts me is how some of you lot went out of your way to undermine policies Woodeneye tried to instigate for what one can only guess to be as political gain leading up to the Exec elections.
So who cast the first stones? Why couldn't you lot "get on with it then"?
Funny how some of these policies that you lot then were so happy to undermine and threaten pilot's careers with ,you are now happy to embrace as your own ,seeing that you're now in the drivers seat and need to get on with it.Is that because due to the legislation of the day there are limited paths to follow? Maybe Woodeneye knew something after all.

PS Autobrakes, how do you explain away the Shorthaul EBA vote.
It was an almost identical result yet the baby wasn't thrown out with the bathwater there was it?. No , the massive NO vote there gave leverage to re-negotiate some of the more contentious issues ,didn't it. Ask some of your mates in management why they wanted EBA8 sunk, and what the strategic benefits there are for management in having EBA7 "rolled over".
When it comes time for Qantas pilots being forced to meet the market as they're backed further and further into a corner I'm sure Management will take pity on us and "go easy". Who knows when the time comes, which it will, EBA8 may just be missed.
GlobalMaster is correct ,Management's tune hasn't changed only the pipers tune leading the troops has.
At the end of the day will the destination we're being led be worth it?
For that matter just what is Team Bazza's vision?
For all our sakes I hope it's a good one!

[Tassie Devil]

It's a dark and stormy night , your about to start the approach. Your low on fuel . It's not the time to be arguing over what minima should be set. No conflict in the cockpit . One chance to get it right. Good luck

[Crusty Demon]

The same 10 or so clowns out of about 2400 pilots are still bleating whenever anything to do with the previous admin is mentioned.

Time for the turkeys to bury their heads in the sand and move on with life. Surely by now they must realise there are many who desert bars when the aforementioned are suspected of being close by. Get over the politics you losers and just get behind whoever is in power, not undermine them.

[newsensation]

the AFAP are fully occupied at the moment beating the crap out of the AAPMBF trustees so for any other important issues please don't call them until the beatings have stopped.
Maybe if the MBF fund was truly independent of the AFAP pilots could exercise their right to choose who represents them, some might keep the MBF for loss of licence and move to AIPA :rolleyes:

[Dragun]

Maybe if the MBF fund was truly independent of the AFAP pilots could exercise their right to choose who represents them, some might keep the MBF for loss of licence and move to AIPAThis sums it up perfectly. If this were to happen, the exodus of Qantas Group pilots from AFAP to AIPA would be incredible.

TL - I believe Capt. G.E. has been consulted but as yet I'm not sure what the response has been.

Cheers

[WoodenEye]

The establishment of an Australian Pilots Association (APA) to unite all commercial pilots and bring AFAP & AIPA under one umbrella is not new. The BALPA model is well known to the Execs in both AFAP & AIPA; who know and understand that it has been tested in the UK and has been found, ‘by n large,’ to be robust and resilient.

Tried to get it to fly during my time at the helm of AIPA, but as usual, the usual protagonists on both sides of the fence managed to stymie it. As previous posters have already pointed out:

it time the same 10 or so clowns stoped bleating and stoped throwing stones at anyone trying to advance the prosperity of pilots and the companies they work for.With globalisation bearing down on the Virgin and Qantas Groups, it’s time for Qantas Group pilots to embrace innovative change which, inter alia, means merging AFAP & AIPA to bring into existence an Australian Pilots Association (APA)

That the MBF Trustees appear to understand that the MBF needs new blood if it is to grow and continue to offer very attractive LOL insurance to its members, is I believe, compelling reason to bring on the AFAP/AIPA merger asap. :ok:

[CaptCloudbuster]

Blown n' wrote some of these policies that you lot then were so happy to undermine and threaten pilot's careers with ,you are now happy to embrace as your own

Totally agree on this point. Past history showed Wodden eye undermined at every opportunity. Some ideas now espoused were pilloried before!

My philosophy is "If you can't be with the one you love, honey, love the one your with!"

For the good of the 2500 AIPA members put personal pride aside and be happy that COM is now functioning - regardless of the reason. Get behind the Exec we've got. Praise them in public when they do a good job - tear strips off them on the internal AIPA COM Webmail when you suspect something's not quite right.

My view is the current crisis has been handled exceptionally well. I truly believe President Jackson has the right temperament for the face to face meetings required to arrive at the solution we achieved.

The bigger test will now come securing career opportunities into the immediate future for all AIPA members. Everyone acknowledges this as the #1 issue.

I will not wallow in the past and wonder what might have been but choose to remain optimistic and work with the hand we have been given.

[wombat watcher]

It's fine to say don't look back and to look forward. WoodenEye got himself banished from Qrewroom because he was carrying on like an idiot. After a rest period he is now pushing the same Big Picture crap that he has been pushing in years gone by, on this forum. The trouble is the little picture stuff passes him by and because he behaves like a di..head he makes no progress with the people who count with respect to the big picture. Pilots who choose to follow or believe in his doctrine must be confused little souls for sure.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[CaptCloudbuster]

because he behaves like a di..head

He's not the only member on COM who could be accused of that!

A lot less hubris will go a long way Wombat.

[grrowler]

Hey mods,

what's with the frenzied thread moving? I'm pretty sure this topic isn't GA or a question?

[spirax]

Yes another example of the lack of standardisation or maybe understanding by at least one moderator.

Come on guys, this is clearly not GA.:confused:

[blow.n.gasket]

Maybe the moderator has a soft spot for team Bazza.:ok: