Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing

[Ovation]

From News Ltd National Breaking News

Fears for 8 Australians on missing PNG plane

AAP August 11, 2009 04:18pm

A CHARTER plane with eight Australians heading to the Kokoda Track is missing having failed to reach its destination in Papua New Guinea.
The Twin Otter, twin engine, plane left the capital Port Moresby this morning at 9.30am (local time) but had failed to return by the afternoon.

Authorities hold fears for the missing 15 people on board, including eight Australians heading to the Kokoda Track, five local porters and two crew.

The plane was transporting the Kokoda Track trekkers as part of an Adventure Kokoda tour group.
Ori Kennia, former Kokoda mayor, told AAP that PNG authorities began ringing him at lunchtime asking if he had seen anything unusual.

"They rang and I told them, the plane they were talking about, I didn't see it come in," he said.

"There is a plane now circling around searching for it.

[harrogate]

Flying from Port Moresby to Kokoda.

13 on board, including 8 Australians

No more info.

[harrogate]

Eight Aussies on 'missing' PNG plane (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/848694/eight-aussies-on-missing-png-plane)

[harrogate]

Strange update on this just been on the TV news.

They said two planes and about 25 people have now been accounted for, but the Twin Otter is still missing.

There'd been no mention of 3 planes being missing on earlier news reports, so not sure what the relevance of the breaking update about the 2 planes being accounted for was, really.

The Twin Otter is still missing.

[BoeingMEL]

.... huge search problems if there are survivors... good luck to the missing pax and crew..and the searchers too. bm

[Amelia_Flashtart]

Harrogate relevance of the 3 aircraft is as per this info released in Australian Press from PNG - it seems 3 left, 1 landed, 1 turned back:

Nine Aussies on missing PNG plane bound for Kokoda

August 11, 2009 06:22pm
.UPDATE: NINE Australians are aboard a missing Papua New Guinea plane, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade says.

A DFAT spokeswoman said Airlines PNG had advised that 13 people were on board the plane that went missing on Tuesday en route to the Kokoda Track.

"Nine of the passengers are known to be Australians," she said.

"Consular staff are contacting families of the Australian passengers to offer consular assistance."

The Twin Otter, twin engine, plane left the capital Port Moresby on Tuesday morning at 9.30am (local time) but had failed to return Tuesday afternoon.

Locator map: Plane missing in PNG
It was last heard from as it approached Kokoda.

Authorities hold fears for the missing 13 people on board, including nine Australians heading to the Kokoda Track.

Ori Kennia, former Kokoda mayor, told AAP that PNG authorities began ringing him at lunchtime asking if he had seen anything unusual.

"They rang and I told them, the plane they were talking about, I didn't see it come in," he said.

"There is a plane now circling around searching for it."

The plane had been flying through the Owen Stanley ranges that are famous for its mountainous and rugged terrain.

"The weather up here is really bad, completely overcast," Kennia said.

The charter was scheduled to arrive at the small village of Efogi at 9.55am (local time), before being due at Kokoda by 10.15am, then back at Port Moresby by 11am.

PNG's Civil Aviation Authority are expected to make a statement shortly.

An Airlines PNG plane has begun a search and rescue mission.

Airlines PNG in a written statement said intensive search efforts had begun in the Owen Stanley Ranges north of Port Moresby for one of its planes.

``The airline advises that there are 11 passengers and two crew members aboard the missing plane,'' a spokesperson said.

``The last communication from the missing aircraft was received as it approached Kokoda and an extensive search and rescue mission was activated after it failed to land.''

A major Australian Kokoda adventure company says none of its clients are believed to be on board the missing Papua New Guinea plane.

Adventure Kokoda chief executive Charlie Lynn says all his clients are accounted for after an Airlines PNG aircraft failed to arrive at its destination on Tuesday.

There have been fears eight Australians from Adventure Kokoda were on the plane.

"I've been told that there are no Adventure Kokoda trekkers (on the plane)," he said.

"One of our planes did land at Kokoda today and there are 14 of our trekkers in Kokoda.

"A second plane couldn't get in because of weather. Those 12 trekkers have returned and they're safely in Port Moresby.

"There is an Airlines PNG plane missing. They have helicopters out there searching for it but I've been told there are no Adventure Kokoda people on it at all."

[Cool banana]

They were among 13 people on Airlines of Papua New Guinea flight CG4684 that was travelling from Port Moresby to Kokoda but failed to arrive at its destination.

The two crew members aboard the missing plane are believed to be PNG pilots Jenny Moala and Royden Soauka.

The missing plane had aborted its first landing attempt this morning.

Heard they didnt get in on there first attempt while the plane behind them landed, then they did a go-around and then dissappeared.

Kokoda airport is a one way grass strip due to the Stanley Owen range being close by.

[captainspeaking]

Airlines of PNG previously lost a cargo-flight Twotter in July 2004 - seems like it was CFIT. Papua New Guinea: Airlines of Papua New Guinea (http://www.airlineupdate.com/airlines/airline_profiles/airlines_papua/airlinespng.htm)

One hopes, but one fears.

[Winged Bird]

Just received this press release from Airlines PNG, please remember that families of the crew and the passengers are sitting at home tonight awaiting news and speculation doesn't help their cause. Lets stick to the facts.

MEDIA RELEASE
SEARCH CONTINUES
FOR MISSING AIRCRAFT IN PNG
PORT MORESBY, PAPUA NEW GUINEA
Tuesday 11 June 2009 19:00:
Airlines of Papua New Guinea has provided further details concerning the events
surrounding the disappearance of one of its Twin Otter turboprop aircraft and the intensive
search and rescue efforts being undertaken in the rugged Owen Stanley Ranges north of
Port Moresby in Papua New Guinea.
The aircraft - with eleven passengers and two crew members aboard - was scheduled to
arrive at Kokoda Airstrip at 11:20 a.m. after departing Port Moresby at 10:53. At its
scheduled arrival time, Airlines PNG’s Kokoda agent contacted the airline’s Operations
Centre to advise of its non-arrival. The Operations Centre made immediate contact with
Port Moresby Flight Service and were advised that the last radio contact with the aircraft
had been at 11:11 a.m.
At 11:40 a.m., Airlines PNG activated its Emergency Response Plan and a Crisis Centre
was established at its Port Moresby headquarters. Another Airlines PNG Twin Otter had
landed at Kokoda airstrip very shortly after the scheduled arrival time of the first aircraft
and was used to search for the missing aircraft as soon as possible. The airline also
diverted one of its Dash 8 aircraft to the vicinity to do likewise. Additionally the airline
immediately arranged for two Heli-Niugini helicopters to join the search and at 12:00
noon, PNG’s Civil Aviation Authority was advised of the situation and the Australian High
Commission and Japanese Embassy in Port Moresby were notified shortly thereafter.
The Australian Rescue Co-ordination Centre, which monitors emergency signals from the
aircraft’s emergency locator beacon was contacted and advised that no signal had been
received.
Airlines PNG is also co-ordinating with the local villages in the area, who have already
sent out search parties on foot, and will report back to Airlines PNG as soon as they have
any additional information.
Of the eleven passengers, there is one Papua New Guinean, a Japanese national and nine
were Australian members of a Kokoda trekking group organized through a Victorian tour
operator, with which organisation the airline has been in regular contact. The two person
crew on the aircraft were both Papua New Guineans.
Jackson’s Airport, Port Moresby
PO Box 170, Boroko, Papua New Guinea
Phone (675) 325 2011 Fax (675) 3252219
Email: apng&apng.com
2/-
The Trekking group has advised that it has notified the families of the Australians on
board. Additionally after co-ordination between Airlines PNG and the Australian High
Commission, to ensure the best resources were availed to families of the passengers , the
Australian government has been contacting the families to offer assistance.
Airlines PNG has arranged for assistance for all families in Port Moresby.
The Australian government is also arranging for additional resources to be positioned to
Port Moresby overnight to maximize the chances of a successful outcome.
The missing Twin Otter aircraft had earlier this year undergone a complete refurbishment
programme and was fitted with the some of the latest navigation aids including terrain
advice equipment. The flight crew are experienced with flying in Papua New Guinea’s
challenging conditions and very familiar with the particular route flown, having both flown
in Papua New Guinea for approximately five years on this aircraft type.
Earlier in the day, an Airlines PNG flight had operated into Kokoda under normal weather
conditions but conditions in the mountainous terrain can be subject to sudden changes.
Further assistance is now being provided in the search area by both PNG and Australian
authorities and mining companies in PNG are also providing airborne resources to assist.
Search efforts continue utilising an Australian Maritime Safety Authority aircraft that has
specifically been flown up from Australia. Airlines PNG aircraft and Heli-Nigini
helicopters will continue the search at 0530 in the morning, but are presently constrained
by nightfall and the mountainous nature of the area.
Further update bulletins will be issued by the airline as soon as additional information is
available.
***END OF RELEASE***

[longrass]

Crash site found, army scrambling helos ex Darwin and ran ship diverted to Aussie high commish/ran base POM to provide aviation support, expecting raaf Townsville, Darwin to send c130 each to POM by early morning, good luck

[Xcel]

CFIT?

Heard a report that 2 a/c enroute and he turned back whilst other company a/c made it to destination... since missing...

Info is from Hevilift, anyone from APNG commenting...

Hope some locals looking for scrap metal stumble across the survivors...

[yowieII]

Can any of the local folk, Chimbu et al, give a description of the possible escape route after a miss? Are there any realistic landing areas along an escape route, if that is the case? Any landing areas in the vicinity?
Lets be hopeful

[Chimbu chuckles]

I am hardly local anymore - I left PNG 10 years ago and it must by 1992/93 since I flew Twotters around the Koari (Kokoda track area)...but for what it is worth.

There are two ways of getting to Kokoda from Moresby.

1/. Direct track IFR POM->Girua which is 79nm (from memory) and the LSALT is 13400 (again from memory - might be 13700') Once north of the Owen Stanley ranges (the actual Gap is about 36 DME Moresby) you can descend down visually either over the northen coastal plains and then back south again into the Kokoda Valley which is wide and VERY rarely un-flyable, or directly down into the Kokoda valley which is the first valley south of the coastal plains and parallel with the Owen Stanley ranges but has a river flowing out to the coastal plains.

2. VFR under the weather (you just wouldn't do this in a DHC6 unless you had to go to one of 'The Jungles' strips that line the track first and then to Kokoda) you'd track out from Moresby more northerly than the direct track and enter the Brown River valley that winds its way back NE up into the mountains and takes you to the airstrips that line the track - Nadinumu, Menari, Efogi, Kagi and a few others. From Efogi/Kagi (right next to one another) you cross a ridge at maybe 7500' right behind them and you're over the western end of Lake Myola (prehistoric dry lake bed covered in grass) and the do a sharp left turn and enter the Kokoda Gap itself. I think the lowest I ever went through the Gap is 7200' and at that altitude it is VERY narrow V shaped gorge that drops away steeply and you descend down until it spits you out in the Kokoda Valley maybe a 1/2nm from Kokoda itself. It so narrow that if you entered it at minimum altitude (or even 500' higher) and it was clagged you could NOT do a 180 and fly back out. If the weather was marginal you would more usually fly back down the valley system until you could climb safely to LSALT and then pick up the Moresby -> Girua track and see 1/. above.

The 'Jungles'/Kokoda/Lake Myola area is ROUGH country and the valleys are not wide/open at all - in weather it is a nasty place that has swallowed lots of aircraft - plenty of valleys that look like the right valley but end in a dead end with terrain going up to 12000', for all intents and purpose, vertically - you'd only out climb it in a lightly loaded F18.

This is Kagi facing back towards the south - Efogi is maybe a nm away just out of picture on the left and you can see the ridge you need to cross behind Efogi to get to Lake Myola and the Kokoda Gap. Imagine it with solid cloud below the height of the photographer and rain.

http://www.fototime.com/{C21FCE7F-6980-4670-BFC6-DBC8AF40BF89}/origpict/%27Jungles%27%20strip.jpg

[sundaun]

Yowie, if the route was POM-KOK he/she could IFR Cat & Procedures depart POM, let down at Girua and proceed VFR to KOK back along track. CFIT possibly in that last segment although faily easy going until Wairopi Bridge then very high terrain either side if forced to turn out. If intermediate stops en-route at Efogi or Kagi before Kokoda, choices are False Gap, Gap, or join LSA on published route and proceed as above, or via Mt Brown, or remain visual, and sector altitudes in these cases vary between 8500 to get through the gap visually to grid Minimum off Route Altitudes of 15,500'. Mrs Daun tells me news saying he/she did a "go-around" at KOK which would require an escape procedure if IFR conditions were encountered. The logical headings would be out towards the Girua aid.I am no expert but this gives some idea of the complexities of PNG flying. The altitudes I have given are approximate. In recent times a variety of aircraft have CFIT'd in the vicinity. A Piaggio in the early 60,s (never found) and an Aztec in the 70s, plus a few on the outhern side. Sori Chimbu, we posted simultaneously.

[Waghi Warrior]

Sad news,RIP to those people who lost their lives,if that's required as the aircraft hasn't been found yet,there is still hope.

I just saw Geoff Thomas on TV giving his description on EGPWS,I got a bit dissapointed when he indicated that pilots may (?) use the EGPWS to fly IMC below the LSALT,not to mention that he said the EGPWS is a radar.
Get your fact straight Geoff before making comments like this on national tevevision.

Good to see the Aussies are up here helping out. Maybe someone has listened to Sid O'Toole. I wonder if the Aussies would have got involved if it was a plane full of PNG natinals,trying to land at Selbang that went missing ? I somehow doubt it. It's also quite interesting that EMTV (PNG's national television station) didn't report anything on the news last night (To my knowledge anyway),mean while it's breaking news headlines in Australia.

[Amelia_Flashtart]

Latest Update

BREAKING NEWS: A PLANE carrying nine Australians, including two Queenslanders, has been found in dense jungle near the Kokoda Track in PNG.

Joseph Kintau, director of Papua New Guinea's Civil Aviation Authority told ABC radio wreckage of the 20-seater Twin Otter turboprop was found after a radio signal was detected.

Mr Kintau said the wreckage was found early this morning by a rescue helicopter, but he could not confirm the exact location and could not say if there were any signs of survivors.

He said the terrain was “very difficult’’ but a rescue bid would be mounted as soon as possible.


Grave fears are held for the 11 passengers and two crew members who were on Airlines Papua New Guinea flight CG4684 flying from Port Moresby to Kokoda yesterday which disappeared in treacherous weather.


A Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade spokesman this morning said authorities were aware of reports that villagers in the Mt Bellamy region may have found the missing plane overnight but could not confirm them.

[cnic]

Before the name calling and finger pointing starts I think we should stick to the facts. APNG has just posted news releases on their website. If anyone out there knows how to put links in a post please do it has a lot of information.http://www.apng.com/index.asp?pgid=9 hopefully this works.

[RV6]

http://www.apng.com/_data/docs/media-release-09-08-11-missing-aircraft-2.pdf

[catseye]

phone interview with David Inau on 11:00am channel 9 news indicated acft impacted just below ridgetop. Wx bad in area. Seaking positioning into Kokoda for winch ops subject to wx.

Not good.

[Amelia_Flashtart]

From AAP:

A HELICOPTER crew scanning the crash site of a plane that was flying over Papua New Guinea's Kokoda Track has reported "no immediate signs of activity'' at the scene.

Seven Victorians and two Queenslanders intending to walk the iconic track with the No Roads Expeditions trekking company, were among 13 people aboard the Twin Otter charter aircraft that went down in mountainous country in the Owen Stanley ranges yesterday.

In a written statement, Airlines PNG said their plane was found at 8.40am (8.40 AEST) today.

"The missing aircraft was found at an altitude of 5,500ft (1,676 metres) in the Kokoda area.

"Visual inspections from a helicopter showed no immediate signs of activity.

"A PNG Police response team landed a short distance from the site, but deteriorating weather and limited communications have hampered further information from this team,'' the airline said.

Three helicopters, including a Royal Australian Navy Sea King are in the area, with the intention of landing further personnel to assist.


At least it has been found - now the really difficult part begins and it is not looking good re survivors

[Tidbinbilla]

News Flash on CH7. Unfortunately, it has been confirmed there are no survivors. :(

[Flightsimman]

Hi,

Very sad news if in fact those on board have perished.

Does anyone know the registration of this aircraft ?

[campdoag]

Registration is P2-MCB:(

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

Flown with Airlines PNG and their otters a bit and never thought they were all anything less than a good,safe operation.
Its just rough country down there.
I hope this doesnt affect the company or the Kokoda track operations too much.
Very sad for the families involved, expat and locals.

[yowieII]

Thanks Chuck and Sundaun. Not a nice position to be in by all accounts.

[High 6]

Very sad news indeed, such a tragic loss of so many innocent lives. Our thoughts and prayers are with their families and friends.

Do we have an exact location of the crash site, whether north or south of Lake Myola? I agree with Chimbu, when one approaches the Gap from the north, it becomes very narrow and the absolute minimum altitude for crossing in either direction is 7200 feet. Having walked the Kokoda Trail myself, the terrain under the tree canopy is extremely steep, and very dense. Between the Isurava Memorial and Lake Myola,(2 days walking) there was not one possible helicopter landing site that I can recall, so they would probably have to winch rescuers down, it will be a demanding job, especially if the weather does not cooperate.

Although quite rare, people have survived accidents of similar nature in the past as the trees and thick vegetation can often offer some cushioning. But as stated in an earlier post sadly there seems to no sign of survivors.

I knew the pilots, our prayers and condolences to their families, a sad loss to the PNG aviation flying community.

[Pinky the pilot]

Concur with Captain Nomad. I used to go out to that area twice a week on the Jungles run. Still miss it.

[Tidbinbilla]

Folks, please don't turn this into a condolences thread. It's extremely remote that their families will read this forum anyway.

Let's just stick to the subject matter.

[gulliBell]

Evidently Australian officials have been invited to participate in the accident investigation. It will be a rarity for PNG to have a thorough investigation of an air accident. No doubt (or rather hopefully, bearing in mind the PNG factor) all will be revealed of what went wrong.

[gulliBell]

High 6. Media reports put the crash site N of Isurava at 5500'. Which looking at the map would put it on a ridge line on either the W or E side of the valley on the Kokoda side of the range on the Kokoda gap route.

[Obie]

Are there suggestions here that the aircraft was below LSA for the area?

[Obie]

Then again, if it hit the ground, it obviously was?

Is this a correct statement?

[tipsy2]

Sadly "Foreign Correspondent' and Sid got it right nearly 12 months ago.

Of course Australia will assist with the accident investigation, PNG doesn't provide any money for themselves to do so.

The Asian Development Bank is currently throwing money at PNG for "Aviation Infrastructure" improvements. How much of that money will finish up in the pocket of a highly placed PNG CAA officer with well documented connections to Russian Helicopter operators? Graft and corruption has become the 'normal ' business practice in PNG, why would this money be any different!

Aviation in PNG will continue to be the backbone of transport in country, something it has been doing for 60 or so years.

[Obie]

So, what is the LSA for that area?

C'mon guys, someone must know, surely!

And they pranged on the go around and manuoever for return, is that correct?

What are the missed approach/ go around procedures?

Some one, any one...where are the charts?

[maverick22]

Whoa, settle obie! I'm sure someone who knows the answer will answer in due course

[training wheels]

Can you conduct an instrument approach in the PNG mountains? Or is it all visual approaches up there?

[AQIS Boigu]

So, what is the LSA for that area?

C'mon guys, someone must know, surely!

And they pranged on the go around and manuoever for return, is that correct?

What are the missed approach/ go around procedures?

Some one, any one...where are the charts?


you sound like a typical Aussie pilot and by your language I judge that you have never even flown in/to PNG...so relax mate...let the men handle this...ok

Kokoda is a bush strip without instrument approach procedure (and therefore no missed approach procedure either - and no Obie, PNG CAA neither hasn't had the time nor the money to design a GPS NPA "Aussie style" for Kokoda)... if they wx is crap you do what Chimbu described in his earlier post...find a hole and spiral down into the fairly big valley VISUALLY... especially for you Obie - LSALT on the POM-Popondetta track (049 rad PY) is 13700ft and in the area from memory 15500. (and yes Obie, as long as the pilots have O2 you can go above 10000ft for no longer than 30min in PNG - before you talk about O2 requirements in OOOSTralia).

I hope this post answers your questions...

as harsh as it sounds...aeroplanes will keep crashing in PNG...unfortunately it's that simple...

[subsonic85]

Grid MSA 15300 feet. Crash site at the foothills of Mt Victoria (13300feet)amsl

[Obie]

Gotcha! Thanks for the info.

So we're not talking 3rd world RPT aviation even?

We're talking about 3rd world GA VFR? With a company calling itself Airlines PNG!

And the punters know about this do they?

Strewth! The 7:30 Report will have a field day with this!!

[Bush Boss]

Obie, The whole country is huge mountains. Kokoda is 1300' amsl (feet above sea level) in a valley,a reasonable sized valley by PNG standards, about 3NM? wide around Kokoda by memory. Mt Victoria is 13250' amsl and is only 10-12NM to the west of Kokoda. That means the PEAK is only 10-12NM away, the foothills (mountains by most other countries standards) to Mt Victoria start only 1-2NM from Kokoda. If you havent been there it it hard to imagine the scale of it all.

Training Wheels, No instrument approach at Kokoda. Generally only at the larger coastal airports.

Regards, BB.

[nitpicker330]

Obie what are you on about?

Aviation in PNG has and will always be difficult. Not all countries have the luxury of the Australian wx, atc, low terrain and systems you know.

This has been the way since ww2 in PNG.

There will always be a risk in Aviation, in PNG there is even more.
I'm sure the Airline and the Flight crew do their best each and every day under what can only be described as trying conditions at best.

Nothing new, so stop the sensationalistic clap trap

[AQIS Boigu]

And the punters know about this do they?


As a punter you don't have a choice... but you can walk both ways from Kokoda if you don't want to fly...

[tinpis]

Strewth! The 7:30 Report will have a field day with this!!

Someone please take Kerry for a run around PNG
His rug would turn grey.

[tipsy2]

Yes Obie, simply because Kokoda does not have a nav aid or GPS approach it is by simple definition, VFR. That is the same for the majority of smaller PNG airports that are the lifeblood of the country.

Any navaids (even the RWY lights at POM)in PNG last as long as it takes the locals to nick the wires/lights/batteries because they have a better use for those items than any balus.

It is unwise to try and relate an Australian pilots organised cosy operating environment to that of those flying in PNG. There is no similarity. Not unsafe, just different considerations and practices developed to fit in with the operating environment that is awesome and beautiful but terribly unforgiving.

tipsy

[AQIS Boigu]

Quote:
Strewth! The 7:30 Report will have a field day with this!!
Someone please take Kerry for a run around PNG
His rug would turn grey.


Tinpis,

I think we should put them both (Kerry and Obie - by themselves of course) on a PMV to Gererhu and see how they like the "infrastructure"... and after we interview them (if they come back) we'll watch them run down to Jacksons so they can jump on the next PX balus to BNE or CNS escaping on the "freedom radial"...

[campdoag]

obie, no offense mate but in this case I suggest you keep your comments to yourself.

It is very clear from your posts that you are completely uneducated on and by no means aware of the very unique operating environment that is PNG. No where else like it in the world!!!

I suggest you just read this thread, you may learn something.

please take the advise, everyone who has flown in PNG is laughing at you..:O

[wotthe]

Actually some of us are just sitting here shaking our heads.

Ah the good old days, tooing and froing to the jungles in the trusty ole Nomad.

Maybe the canopy 'round the gap is higher these days, used to be able to get through at 7000, back in the 70s!

[Obie]

...well, at least wothee is getting my drift!



Obie. I would have sent you a Private Message but you've elected to block PMs from Mods, I'm too lazy to look in your profile for your email address, so I guess my message to you must unfortunately be public.

Your abysmal lack of PNG aviation knowledge is obvious....... Unpressurised GA aircraft in PNG spend their entire life below LSALT. In the interior of the country there are no nav aids for safety reasons. All operations, including RPT are VFR.

Read and learn. Don't criticise what you don't understand. PNG has trained some of the finest aviators, including I'm sure, the pilots of the APNG Twin Otter.

Tail Wheel
Forum Moderator

[teresa green]

Spent 8 years up there with TAA on the Twotters, and DC3's, so feel very sad about the accident, but knowing the area, can well imagine it happening, especially the north side, used to be 8/8s a lot of the time.

[Chimbu chuckles]

No Obie whothe is not getting 'your drift' he is shaking his head at your naive statements/questions...as am I.

PNG is different to Australia. PNG relies near totally on aircraft and coastal shipping for transport - there are a few roads but the number is so small it is meaningless when you take into account the dangers inherent in driving anywhere outside the main coastal towns.

The aircraft PNG relies on are for the most part GA level - Twin Otters/Islanders etc. There are maybe 15 destinations domestically that can cope with aircraft Dash 8 size and maybe 10 that can cope with a jet like an F28 (in my day)/F100. Not all of those 'main ports' have reliable terrestrial navaids...it wasn't unusual to operate F28s 'visually' - it was common to operate the Dash 7 that way on RPT flights.

To give those numbers some scale I operated in/out of 318 bush strips (total was north of 400 'licensed' bush strips in PNG) in my time in Talair etc on RPT flights.

So the VAST bulk of flying in PNG is pure VFR tropical jungle bush flying - with all that entails weather/terrain wise - mostly operating to some form of schedule. I don't know the exact % but probably 75% of the PNG population still lives in villages in remote swamps/coastal areas/Islands or high mountain valleys completely cut off from the world outside that valley except via a grass strip cut into whatever terrain the village was built on 1000 yrs before aircraft were invented.

high 6 mentioned the walk from Isurava to Lake Myola taking 2 days - it is about 2 minutes in a Twin Otter. That give you some sense of the terrain?

In the mountains GPS is of very limited value (in fact it is near useless) and I point blank, absolutely refuse to believe this crew was fcking around with TAWs/EGPWS. You do spend your entire working day 7-10000' below 'lowest safe' altitudes.

PNG is terribly unforgiving of a bad decision. It will never be different. It is at the same time the most wonderfully satisfying flying and the most deadly.

It has as much similarity to operating in Australia as the Space Shuttle program does to QF's B744 operations.

[wotthe]

Thanks Chimbu

Fortunately I can't be bothered getting flustered at this persons lack of an ability to 'do some research' before posting on this forum.

[TWOTBAGS]

I’m not going to shoot at Obie… he’s already proven his point… or lack there of.

Having about 3500hr in the Twin Otter and a bit of it in PNG I have to explain a couple things to those who have not been there.

As already stated, planes are like busses in PNG, if it fits, it flies, or it never gets there full stop. Depending upon the season you can set your watch by the weather knowing that you need to finish your work in the mornings and take the arvo off, even then the mornings can be ****e too!

The only comparable region I personally know were the hills in northern Angola, granted they are not as big, but the valleys were the same, twisted & convoluted sometimes with a way out sometimes not, and usually no where to turn. Wx was just as cruddy, with low stratus and 99% humidity.

The PIC would not have been there if they could not cut the mustard and made their decision to abandon the approach for more than likely a good reason. Its however unfortunate that, this maneuver has lead to other issues.

Having flown one of the first Otter with EGPWS up there (a long time ago), honestly it was more than useless as more of than not the airport was not in the database and terrain inhibit was the norm….. Terrain-Terrain….. Great PNG railways!!!

Any remote idea that a crew would conduct an IMC approach to a VFR airport using EGPWS guidance is on par with those who wear the funny white jackets that do up at the back.

[Xcel]

Recieved two conflicting stories now...

was this on the Pom or kokoda side of the saddle that it went in?


...


oh and for the boofhead obie, added a pic of an old map for you....
for the go-arounds.. our company policy in png was zero,zilch,nada
go arounds permitted.. as we could be committed to land in a few cases before u even see the strip... the only way to execute the 180 to get out of some of these valleys is to turn around after landing and point her back out... 99% are one way strips <600m at >5000' with >10% gradient.

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs164.snc1/6128_117042575770_704935770_2870067_202248_n.jpg

someone want to post up the pom aloteu (think its N15) cant find mine atm...

although chimbu as usual very clear description a picture can paint a thousand words... wish i could remember the runs as clearly as that.. cant even remember where i went today...

[Captain Nomad]

Seems as though my last post was deleted because it contained the 'condolences' word...

That aside, having flown in that environment and operated in and out of the strips concerned, I do have empathy for the crew and the pax who are no longer with us. For the armchair experts discussing the event now by proxy it appears I'm not the only one who is a bit 'put off' with some of the comments :*

It might sound condescending, but unless you have been there and done it you really do have no idea of the uniqueness of the environment and challenges there to be faced. Hence no right to pontificate...

One thing I learned quickly in PNG is that there is a lot more 'grey area' flying than what could possibly be imagined in Australia. A pilot has to exercise more judgement in the PNG environment than in perhaps most others, and even if he does everything right, can still fall victim to bad circumstance. PNG has been described as 'unforgiving' for very good reason.

Would be interested to hear more about where the crash was finally located - anyone?

[chainsaw]

obie,

It seems a number of PPRuNers are trying to tell you that it's not easy flying in PNG (or, as I knew it, TPNG).

Look at: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/new_guinea/txu-oclc-6552576-sc55-7.jpg

Find Efogi on the map, and then work out from the contours just what you are facing in terms of 'challenges' in that tiny area of PNG alone.............you can takeoff from Efogi and straight away be on a right base for Kagi! As was depicted pictorially in a previous post on this thread. Notice the steepness of the strip depicted? Well, obie, that one was 'tame' compared to some operated into as a matter of course day-in day-out in all sorts of weather in some areas of PNG at a time when no-one had GPS and you REALLY needed to know what you were doing to ensure your (continued) survival in what at times were bl00dy dangerous conditions!

And guess what obie..........it's the same through other areas of PNG! Try Komo for example. Or getting into Mendi from, say Moro, in sh1t weather. Or Tari on some mornings!

Wise words are being spoken on this thread from literally 000's and 000's of hours of collective experience of PNG flying obie, so maybe take heed of what other posters and Tail Wheel are trying to tell you.

Thank you! :ok:

[the wizard of auz]

Actually some of us are just sitting here shaking our heads.
About covers it. nothing else to add, as it seems to have drawn enough attention from those that do fly and have flown here and they have pretty much covered it. :ok:

[smogluver]

Thats PNG folks not for sissies, airlines of PNG formerly MBA is a great outfit with very good standards particularly for the environment they operate in. Plenty of experience within the company to match, this is another just another case of this challenging flying environment claiming a few more lives (Yes airplanes do still crash these days), no approach charts, radar vectors, "Request Radar Terrain" in the Owen Stanleys. Hearts out to all the families who lost loved ones, too the Pilots "Lookim You Wantoks"

[lucille]

Chimbu Chuckles... Maayte.. You need re-ejukaytion . Oztraylia is the center of the aviation universe. We all know this!!:ugh:

No one knows better how to operate everywhere else in the world better than an Aussie - especially one who hasn't.:E

To Obie (the trainee journo) and your media mates, for once please allow fact to get in the way of this story. Get your cheap shots in somewhere else.

[greenslopes]

Obie you cannot compare flying in Oz to flying in PNG. The only similarity is that they are both done in aircraft. When your terms of reference are invalid then so too are arguments/opinions.

Next time, rather than shooting from the hip how bout doing some research and then you will be able to offer a less ignorant post.

[trashie]

Find Efogi on the map, and then work out from the contours just what you are facing in terms of 'challenges' in that tiny area of PNG alone--

From what I have read, I doubt whether Obie can even read a map.

[Feather #3]

I was surprised to find how stressed a young bloke was after landing at a strip in Arnhem Land in podded C206. He said that he'd never done it with a full load into a limiting strip length. He was also slightly upset at my lack of awe at the situation.

My reply was "I don't know what your problem is; you could always go-around!" Ahh...Wonenara.......what a spot......:rolleyes:

G'day ;)

[frigatebird]

Lucille and Greenslopes (and Tailwheel)
If Obie is a journo, his research has been supplied and he SHOULD be able to provide a realistic article now. Nothing else counts like local experience.

[notmyC150v2]

Latest media beat up coming out this morning is that the female pilot was "only" 26 years old and had less than 6 months experience flying twin engine aircraft.

Last night on the 7pm Project they had a pilot on (who probably posts here, CC?) setting out the requirements for being certified to fly into those strips which would make the latest media story a non issue.

I suppose they are just desperate to pin the blame on someone... B@st@rds.

[gulliBell]

Chimbu chukles, regarding:

"...In the mountains GPS is of very limited value (in fact it is near useless) and I point blank, absolutely refuse to believe this crew was fcking around with TAWs/EGPWS..."

Can I be brave enough to suggest otherwise?

I think they must have been, and if they weren't they should have been, and here's why. If I recall correctly, and from the outset I stand to be corrected here, the accident aircraft was fitted with a Garmin GNS530 equipped with the TAWS option. [If eyewitness accounts as reported by the Australian media are correct] the aircraft was in cloud when it hit the mountain, or at least until moments before it hit the mountain at which point impact was unavoidable. If you find yourself inadvertently in cloud in the mountains, or even if visual but with deteriorating weather and IMC is likely, I am quite sure any crew who had TAWS available would be keeping an eagle eye on its indications. Quite possibly TAWS is the best, maybe only, thing going for you in this situation once the opportunity to turn around has passed.

The crew knew the mountain was where it was because, [according to the operator], they had flown the route many times before. This leads to the obvious conclusion that they were not exactly sure where they were in relation to the mountain [because they flew into it]. We [might assume] they couldn't determine their position visually because they were in cloud. This means they must have been entirely reliant on GPS indications to determine where they were and what was around them. In other words, in this case the GPS information was extremely valuable because that's all that had, but was it reliable? (I think at the time of the accident RAIM was available in the area, however in very heavy rain and moutainous terrain I have seen degraded GPS position information). So the GPS and the crews interpretation of the GPS information will be absolutely critical to the investigation.

There's no "fcking around" as such with operating TAWS and the GNS530, it takes only a few seconds to call up the TAWS page from whatever page you might be on at the time. And in any event, even if you don't have the TAWS page up you still get the TAWS pop-up and aural alerts whatever other page you have displayed.

(For those who are unfamiliar with Terrain Avoidance Warning System, the TAWS page provides a graphical presentation on the GPS display of the terrain around you relative to your present height. Simply: black being space where there is no danger of impact, yellow being space where you might hit something, and red being space you will hit something).

TAWS can be disabled on the GNS530, but not completely disabled (the Premature Descent Alert and Forward Looking Terrain Avoidance alerts can be disabled, but not the Excessive Descent Rate Alert). However EDR alert only triggers if the closure rate with terrain is determined about 1000 fpm or more, meaning you could be climbing, but not out climbing rising terrain, and if the closure rate was less than 1000 fpm, theoretically you might not get a TAWS aural warning before impacting terrain. Again, I stand to be corrected here.

TAWS warnings and graphical presentations vary depending on the phase of flight, whether enroute, terminal, approach or departure. We don't know what the TAWS Phase of Flight was just prior to impact, it was most likely to be in enroute phase because the required criteria for the other phases was likely not present. In enroute phase the minimum clearance value for alerts is higher, meaning for a giving situation, you could get a TAWS alert if you were in enroute phase, but not in terminal or the other phases. (The TAWS logic and when warnings do and don't get triggered is really only fully understood by those people who wrote the algorithms, it's not something a pilot could ever hope to fully understand).

My experince with the GNS530 is you can get lots of eronious terrain warnings with TAWS either on or off, and very very rarely you don't get any warning when there is a clear collision risk ahead.

It is quite likely the crew had TAWS disabled whilst in the mountains to minimize annoying false warnings, but the TAWS page still shows surrounding terrain, and you still get EDR alerts if you're not on the TAWS page. So fair chance if the crew didn't have the TAWS page up they were getting aural and visual terrain warnings even if TAWS was disabled. However, if TAWS was disabled and they were on the TAWS page, as far as I know (perhaps??) you don't get the aural warning.

I think the key to finding out what went wrong here is in the GPS, and understanding the human/GPS interface factors. Another possibility is of course they were in cloud trying to get up the valley towards Kokoda gap [we now know they weren't, they were to the north of Kokoda slightly right of the extended runway centreline], relying on the TAWS graphical presentation for terrain avoidance, but they had an engine failure and from which point their fate was unavoidable (not being able to turn around in the space available, and not being able to out climb the rising terrain). The other possibility is degraded GPS position information due to the heavy rain, and they were half a mile away from where the GPS said they were.

In summary, TAWS is great. If you've left the decision to turn around too late or you find yourself in cloud in mountains, only TAWS, and luck, is all you have going for you to save your life. What is not great about TAWS is some might rely on it to do stuff they wouldn't be doing without it. Don't lose sight of the caveat that TAWS should only be used as an aid to visual acquisition - do not use terrain information to navigate or maneuver to avoid terrain. Unless you are inadvertently in cloud in mountains then you have no other choice.

Let's hope the GPS data can be recovered. Also, the CVR is going to be helpful to unravel what the crew intentions were [if it had one installed, not that a CVR was required for the class of operation]. Whatever happened, and why, whatever the investigation finds, nothing will change the fact this is a very tragic event.

[greenslopes]

gulibell, having flown in PNG GPS/TAWS is unreliable for the simple fact that the maneuvers required and the terrain surrounding most strips denies the GPS aerial a constant signal. I had GPS but not TAWS and was trained to use the GPS as another tool in the kitbag not the only tool and certainly not to be relied upon IMC beLow LSALT. As for the pilot only being on type for six months. The hours flown in six months are usually greater than those flown by most pilots(elsewhere in the world) in a year. Also knowing the guys conducting the checking and training on the twotters, there is only one standard. 100% right is 100% right , and 99% right is 1oo% wrong. Very high standards are trained and no allowance is given for lack of ability.
We may never know the facts of the crash, PNG is an extremely demanding/unforgiving environment in which to operate. It takes a tremendous amount of skill combined with courage to operate in this harsh environment.
Instead of sniping at these professional pilots, wait for the facts and perhaps we may all learn from this and make PNG a safer place for lessons hard learned.

R.I.P to all those involved

[poteroo]

Latest news is that PNG airstrips need white cone markers to assist pilots to find them in poor weather

Attributed to a tour operator on the Westnet news site.

[Wiley]

I think there'd be few who've "been there and done that" in the Highlands of PNG, particularly in an underpowered civil single or twin, who'd disagree that if getting a PPL could be likened to passing Kindergarten and an ATPL to graduating from High School, a couple of years flying around the PNG Highlands is the equivalent of a post graduate university degree.

The fact that so many of the pilots who do this flying have relatively low hours makes the fact that there are so few serious accidents even more impressive.

It's a long time since I've operated in the Highlnds, and I now navaids, particularly GPS, have made life considerably easier for a pilot in knowing exactly where he/she is, but I'm still gob-smacked to learn from earlier posts here that it now seems to be SOP to fly IMC below LSALT in the Highlands.

The only time I ever went IMC in the Highlands was when I was caught out by rapidly changing weather - and my one and only ambition when that happened was to get clear of cloud or above LSALT (if that was possible - it wasn't always an option!) ASAP.

[chainsaw]

Also, the CVR is going to be helpful to unravel what the crew intentions were.

It might be, if it had one!

DHC-300 MTOW is 5,670 kgs from the Transport Canada Type Certificate Data Sheet. Minimum crew = 1 pilot

PNG CAR 125:

125.367 Cockpit-voice recorder
A certificate holder shall ensure each of its multi-engined turbine powered aeroplanes with a MCTOW of greater than 5700 kg is equipped with a cockpit voice recorder if that aeroplane’s flight manual requires two or more flight crew members.

[Sharpie]

NMC150: APNG home page states that both pilots have some 5 years experience on DHC6 aircraft, so I'd guess they had accumulated around 3,000 hours on type. Not an inconsiderable amount in such a hostile environment.

Not too sure about Obie though, apart from suggesting that he take a trip to Port Moresby and fly as pax on a few Goilala trips, as well as to/from Kokoda via the Kokoda Gap. He then may have a better appreciation of what PNG flying is all about.

I back-up Chimbu Chuckles comments as after 37 years in the country operating various aircraft from C206/185/402/336/B55/P166B/PA31/SC7 and DC3 over the hills and into Kokoda, I have a suble appreciation of what PNG ops are all about.
RIP.

[rob.1201]

YouTube - extreme flying (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHyHe1vFCEk)


Hope this works ...... I found this a while back and showed the kids what their dad use to do .... exhilirating, challenging and unforgiving. Its all been said before.

[Bush Boss]

gulliBell, I am sure that by saying he 'refused to believe the crew were fcking around with the EGPWS' Chuckles meant that he refused to believe the crew were attempting an approach in IMC up the valley. I agree with Chuckles, that would be madness. You are saying that if it all turned to crap and they went IMC the crew should then use the EGPWS as a tool to get themselves out of that situation. I agree with you, use whatever you can.
Maybe you and Chuckles are talking about different things? BB

[Bush Boss]

Wiley, I wouldnt jump the gun here. I dont see anyone suggesting it is now standard SOPs to fly below LSALT in IMC in PNG? BB.

[wotthe]

At the end of the day even experience can kill.
Remember the Chief Pilot (shiploads of experience in PNG) of a certain operator who, in '79, attemped a go-around at Manari, FROM THE GROUND, in a Gomad and ended up vertical amoungst the trees half way up the ridge immediately to the north of the strip, the result of being hot and high on approach with nowhere to go. 14 on board, all perished!
Just another one of those places where you're committed long before the threshold!

[ad-astra]

gulliBell,

I am afraid that the day after the accident is NOT the time to be stepping up on one's soap box and preaching how an accident occurred.

Your reply indicated what the crew did, what the crew knew, what the crew disabled, what the crew should have done, what the weather was like, what the GPS and TAWs/EGPWS were reporting.

Your insight into the accident is somewhat amazing.

You would be much better informed by listening to Chuck!

How about a little respect for both the passengers and crew
and keep the very subjective statements for another day.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Quote:

I was surprised to find how stressed a young bloke was after landing at a strip in Arnhem Land in podded C206. He said that he'd never done it with a full load into a limiting strip length. He was also slightly upset at my lack of awe at the situation.

My reply was "I don't know what your problem is; you could always go-around!" Ahh...Wonenara.......what a spot......

****e man. least we forget when we started out, you could have chosen to say:

Good on ya mate! I remember my first time, welcome to commercial aviation!
Its a good feeling isn't it mate:

Knock em down, club em to death, nah we never felt the same did we? OR DID WE?:=



Chrs
H/Snort
PS( I love KNOCKERS):E especially my wifes:oh:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Last night on the 7pm Project they had a pilot on (who probably posts here, CC?)

Given his current location, I can assure you that it was NOT the person known in here as CC!

Dr :8

[mattyj]

Far out that place claims a lot of Aircraft and Lives..why would anyone want to work there?:confused:

[gulliBell]

AA. I'm on no soap box here, and quite frankly I can't see how you've read any disrespect towards the crew on my part in anything I said. Not even implied criticism, it's simply not there.

All I said was what might have happened; that is, they might have been using TAWS to navigate out of the valley, TAWS might have been the best choice left available to them, and that TAWS navigation data might have been subject to error for no fault of their own. Others here seem to be in agreeance with me, that GPS and TAWS has it limitations, but if you've got it, use it if you need it.

No one is saying the crew shouldn't have been using it, or even whether they were actually using it. I also said we don't know what mode the TAWS was in, or what it was reporting, and I gave a whole host of reasons why. For all we know the wing might have fallen off the plane and TAWS or navigation uncertainty had nothing to do with it. We just don't know.

I haven't said anywhere what caused the crash or who is at fault, that is left to the investigating authority. My "insight" as you say is based purely on my knowledge of the equipment fitted to the aircraft, having used this exact same equipment extensively throughout PNG for years. If I'm wrong in a technical sense about anything I have said about the equipment then so be it, I did qualify my comments that I was unsure about some aspects. My 7+ years of PNG insight also says there is an element of bad luck at play here, as is often the case. My insight also says the crew was doing the best they could with the equipment they had in the circumstances they faced.

As Bush Boss says, if faced with a situation you use whatever tools you have available to you. If that means using TAWS to navigate out of a valley, lucky you for having it. Much better than not. If the engine stopped or the wing fell off, or if the GPS was degraded, that's just the worst luck.

I welcome further criticism of anything I have said here. That's what the forum is for.

[Captain Nomad]

mattyj, because without aviation PNG stops... For a relatively small country there is a lot of flying due to the lack of alternatives. What makes every crash more poignant is the fact that there are practically no PPL cowboys flying around up there - they are all professional pilots who generally know what they are doing and are good pilots because they have to be! I don't know if the place claims more lives proportionate to other places - these days I reckon probably less. Air Niugini is one of the few National Carries that has NEVER had a fatal crash, and that is really saying something! Having said that, they don't have to fly into the 'bush' strips...

[Xcel]

gullibell...

you have amazing insight are you sure you werent onboard or the pilot?

How could the search have taken so long when with all your knowledge you could clearly show them where and what happened...

sorry for the condescending remarks, but please dont jump to conclusions...

I still remember my check flight... with a distinctive pappa smurf looking fellow, who with 20,000hrs+ in country and getting late in his years had me continue well past my comfort zone in IMC... "its ok look i know this area well, this rock here is at 10,200 so just sit at 10,500 she'll be right..."

I climbed to 11,000 just to be safe and skirted wider than he appreciated...

on later inspection of the map the actual spot height was 10,700...


*what we think we know can sometimes get us in the most trouble...


the only time we used gps was using the nearest feature and definately not the "direct to mt" button... as in a valley in imc is defintely a place avoided at all costs...

the report could be very interesting.. hope it does some good for sop's and limits future occurances... interesting to note how many fligths are canned straight away due to ash, and understood by management as a significant issue but not so for weather...

[ad-astra]

gullibell

Statements like -

"We know that the aircraft was in cloud when it hit the mountain, or at least until moments before it hit the mountain at which point impact was unavoidable."

"The crew knew the mountain was where it was because they had flown the route many times before."

"This leads to the obvious conclusion that they were not exactly sure where they were in relation to the mountain."

"they must have been entirely reliant on GPS indications to determine where they were and what was around them."

- make me somewhat uneasy!

The press are already in frenzy mode in relation to qualifications and experience levels of the pilot.

I prefer to stand back and wait rather than provide further fodder to the press - Alas there is certainly more than enough in what you have presented to keep several journos happy.

[I spy]

First bodies pulled from Kokoda plane wreck - Yahoo!7 News (http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/5811182/first-bodies-pulled-from-kokoda-plane-wreck/)

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the connection between SkyTrans and APNG?

[wotthe]

Same Owner

[Chimbu chuckles]

gullibell your statements display a comprehensive lack of knowledge of what flying in mountain valleys entails.

If TAWs was enabled in their G530 the entire screen would be red all the time and the warnings would be going off continuously. When you are flying in PNG mountain valleys in weather you are typically operating at a few 100' agl sometimes lower - crossing ridges/gaps for instance you WILL be briefly at < 50' agl. You would typically have your right wing tip closer than that to the side of the valley to give maximum radius of turn in the event you need to do a 180 and escape back down the way you have come. You may be operating at reduced speed, in a Twotter for example you might be flying along at 80kts/flap 20 at times due terrain/rain/cloud - and even in that config a 180 turn might require 45 degree AoB to NOT hit the ground in the turn - with rain on the windscreen and with no visible horizon because the ground just outside the windscreen is tilted up at all sorts of crazy angles and covered in trees - there will most likely be wispy cloud/mist covering the terrain as well as the overcast less than 50' above you. TAWs/EHGPS is great if operating at/above IAL procedure limiting altitudes but of no use at all in the style of flying this crew was doing.

Too GPS is great when you are flying over flat terrain/above LSALT - but it only gives you straight line dist/track to your destination and in valleys you NEVER fly in straight lines. What use is a track/dist/ETA on a GPS if there is a bloody great mountain that you have to fly around?

I remember flying from Moresby to Nadzab back in about 1991 in my C185. The weather was CRAP - black CBs up to space, rain etc - A fella who had been in PNG 1 day came along for the ride with his new Garmin 100 GPS - first one I had ever seen in fact. He proceeded to suction cap the aerial to the windscreen and attempt to 'help' me find my way through the valleys B050 in areas where the MORAs were 12000' - he turned it off before we were half way and just watched. He subsequently left it switched off for his route/strip training and only bought it out for special occasions - flying around the Gulf Of Papua/Coastal areas where it is flat.

Gullibell et al you will notice that I am making NO COMMENTS on what caused this crash or the crews actions despite being intimately knowledgeable of the aircraft type (2600 hrs on type, in PNG, all single pilot) and the route they were flying.

I suggest you, and anyone else considering comments based on 100% ignorance of the facts, ponder that.

Here is a picture of someone making an approach in a Twotter to Tumolbil in the western highlands (hundred of miles from Efogi but very similar) in nice weather.

WTF use is TAWs/GPS?

http://www.fototime.com/{0A724F8D-EC64-4F99-B1D0-23FC9DA0DD01}/origpict/Tumolbil%20Western%20Highlands.jpg

Crossing a ridge (not me) - note difference between altitude and height agl.

http://www.fototime.com/{604532D9-9F43-4991-9088-2905E4A856AE}/origpict/On%20decent%20PNG.jpg

This is actually me climbing out of Kokoda in light rain - note the wispy cloud in the trees on the ridge line behind/below me - we are at about 3000' in an area where the MORA is 14000' - probably < 10nm from the crash site but as I said before the Kokoda valley is large - where they have crashed is a better described as a gorge. We were tracking out via the Wairopi to the coastal plains on climb LSALT to track back to Moresby as I described a few pages back.

http://www.fototime.com/{18B5090C-4798-4AB0-B154-39F226539685}/origpict/Talair5.jpg

[cnic]

The conection between skytrans and APNG is the wild family. Simon Wild is the Chairman of the APNG Board(largest shareholder but not owner it is now a public company) and the owner of Skytrans. Before anyone tries to pin this on the lack of regulation, everyone needs to remember that APNG is the only airline in PNG that is regulated by PNG caa and CASA. It has the same hoops to jump through that qantas, virgin and for that matter skytrans does.
Also I agree with the post about the ADF being up there I think that it is a crazy move in that environment. It should be left to those who know the region, surely some of the mine guys whould be better trained at such things.

[Telefomen Trousers]

I have said it before but for Obie I'll say it again - given a choice between a 1,000 hour pilot who gained his time in Australia and a 1,000 hour pilot with all his time in PNG, I'll take my PNG friend everytime thanks. You can't buy that experience anywhere else and it is pure gold.

I'm a crusty old engineer and we just hate to stroke pilots, but this needs to be said. These were professional pilots doing what they were trained for in the most beautiful and yet deadly environment I have ever had the fortune to work in. The pilots of PNG are defintely no cowboys and deserve our respect for what they routinely do day in and day out - I know they have mine.

Let's just wait and see what the investigation finds hey?

Off my sopbox now. :ugh:

Lukim TT

[baloose]

John Wild is the founder and half owner of APNG. His children own Skytrans. Connection is solely exec-level management.

[Exaviator]

I have read with interest some of the comments posted regarding the demands of flying in Papua and New Guinea and having first hand experience with the conditions there, agree with most.

My own experience started in 1962 arriving POM at 0630 off the TAA DC-6 night flight from Sydney, only to be met by my then new employer who announced that he was off to Kokoda and that I should come along for a “Look see”.

That flight amounted to my route total endorsement over the Owen Stanley’s!

It was apparent that in order to survive one had to quickly learn the rules of flying in that demanding environment, and over the next eighteen months I managed to learn enough to survive logging 1200 hours flying somewhat aged Cessna 180s and 185s throughout the country.

The most important rule learned was that no matter the weather and the route flown you ALWAYS kept a back door open – a means of escape or alternate plan for that time when the chips were down and things went against you.

Some years later I returned and logged another 1000 hours flying a Twin Otter for TAA over the same routes. A much more suitable aircraft having the reliability of turbine engines, more power and IFR capability.

BUT THE SAME RULES STILL APPLIED.

Any pilot that ignored this basic rule was flirting with the risk of finding him/herself flying into “Cumulo Granitus”.

We will probably never know exactly what happened in this case but one thing is for certain, that at some point the crew of this flight ran out of safe alternatives. It is a sad but true fact that New Guinea aviation has claimed many lives over the years and will probably continue to do so - it is the nature of the beast. :sad:

[gulliBell]

AA.
Points noted. My original post edited thus [] in response.
GB

[sid Otoole]

I took particular note of your thread on this latest tradgedy.

I am stuck in Montreal on another matter (bandit ENB) and cannot get back to PNG to head this investigatio.

I must admit I initiaolly took some offence at one of your comments but I only hope that the PNG departments now realise that the way the Australian government has intervened ( assisted) is the only way you can conduct this type of work. God knows we have been trying to change things in this regard for years but to no avail.

Can I respectfully suggest that the acft accident investigations are done to the same standard as the funding, facilities, manpower, equipment and departmental backup that is provided by the PNG government !!!!!!!!!!!

Come and sped a month or two with me and you will soon find out what really goes on in the background immediately after an aircraft accident occurrs. Take for EG the last bandit accident, it has taken us 2 years 3 months and 3 weeks to the day to get the money to retrieve the engines for inspection at P and W canada. Thats why we are here and or in PNG attending to the latest accident.

Please dont be critical of something you have no knowledge of especially when i am a one man band trying to operate in incredibly trying circumstances . And by the way most times, the job only gets done because my engineer and I pay for it out of our own pockets.

[tinpis]

I found keeping at least TWO back doors open worked for me
When this sort of thing happens at this level of the game, it makes you wonder, and wonder again how lucky you where.

[slamer.]

NZ-trained pilot captained doomed PNG plane

6:55PM Thursday Aug 13, 2009

http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/kokoda-main1.jpg
The plane was transporting tourists to the Kokoda Track (pictured), a trail linking the southern and northern coasts of Papua New Guinea. Photo / Wikimedia Commons image by Luke Brindley

Related links:

Town grieves for dad and daughter (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10590367)
PNG plane wreckage found (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10590327)
Papua New Guinea: Fears for missing tourist plane (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10590119)PORT MORESBY - The cause of a charter plane crash near Kokoda that killed 13 people including nine Australians won't be known for some time, according to the head of Airlines Papua New Guinea.
Airlines PNG chairman Simon Wild defended the experience of the crew operating the flight.
Captain Jannie Moala had completed her pilot training in New Zealand, before her flying career in PNG and commenced flying Twin Otter aircraft with Airlines PNG in 2005.
She had nearly five years' experience on that aircraft type involving some 2500 hours flying, and Ms Moala had flown the Port Moresby to Kokoda route on numerous occasions.
"We will not know the exact cause for some time and have launched a full investigation and will work with authorities to establish the cause of the accident," Mr Wild said.
He said Airlines PNG pilots are some of the most experienced in the world in flying this type of aircraft and in this type of environment.
The Daily Telegraph in Sydney said he revealed an audio recording contained the last voice transmissions from Ms Moala, and thet the pilots told air traffic controllers "they had decided to climb" moments before their plane smashed into a mountain.

Ms Moala was said to have radioed that the Airlines PNG Twin Otter turboprop was descending on to the Kokoda airstrip.
But a few minutes later, Ms Moala, calmly radioed that "they had decided to climb and that they were climbing".
Within moments the plane had hit a mountain just five minutes from the airfield.
Airlines PNG was founded in 1987 as charter company Milne Bay Airlines by a plantation owner and has grown into a significant domestic carrier.
It was reported to have had a significant crash record under its first name, but gained its airline licence in 1997.
Since being renamed and re-organised its only fatal crashes have been two pilots operating an air freight flight in 2004, and the 13 people this week.
The airline hired former Air New Zealand/Ansett chief executive Gary Toomey in June to drive its expansion plans.
"Our hearts go out to the families and friends of the passengers and of course our crew's relatives," Mr Wild said.
First Officer Royden Sauka completed his pilot training in Australia, and also started flying Twin Otter aircraft in 2005 with Airlines PNG.
He too had in excess of 2000 hours experience flying that same aircraft type.
Mr Sauka was also considered a very capable pilot and was also very familiar with the Port Moresby to Kokoda route, the airline said.
"We will be doing whatever we can to support the families during this very trying time while the recovery efforts continue," Mr Wild said.

[Sharpie]

Wothe,
Not really correct I believe but if Chuck remembers, the aircraft was on short finals to a one-way strip with no go-around facilities, when a group of villagers arrived in the middle of the landing area. What do you do? land and possibly injure or kill a number of the villagers, or try an overshoot.

I have never flown a Nomad but believe that with full flap set, if full power applied, the flaps retract to take-off position (or near to) with the stalling speed increased dramtically. At this point in time, I believe that the pilot had no alternative to try and steer the aircraft to the lower terrain off the side of the airstrip. Sadly with the wing stalled, he did not get away with it.

I believe that an accident report was published and may still be available if you seek it.

[mickk]

YouTube - PNG Landing - Fane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oB73Z767S8)

Watch the take off at the end and imagine dropping then climbing into that mountain. Wont get closer to the actual event than this footage.

[Dog One]

Didn't ANG loose a F28 a few years ago after a heavy landing?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Nope they lost one F28 off the end of Madang into the harbor because the runway hadn't been scraped in living memory and it had rained hard just before their night arrival. Pooling water/rubber reversion aquaplaning etc.

They lost two more when main gear legs snapped off on landing due less than great maintenance. Not heavy landings.

One at Goroka due to the oleo not having enough fluid (but plenty of nitrogen) causing the oleo to over compress and the torque links snapped - the brake lines proved not up to keeping the wheels straight and the gear departed the airframe. One at Nadzab due corrosion/fatigue cracking that was behind a Data plate.

No injuries. And these incidents were over a decade ago when I was still on the fleet...even flying a jet in PNG has its exciting moments:}

Edited to change inspection plate to data plate.

[Dog One]

Thanks Chuck for the info. Having never flown a Twotter, but watching the U-Tube excerpt, when did you get single engine capability after take off?

[gulliBell]

CC, no disrespect intended, I just have a difference of opinion on some aspects. Doesn't neccessarily mean you're wrong, or I'm wrong, or either of us is wrong for that matter. Certainly appreciative of what you and others have to say about all this. That's why we're all here participating. I'm certainly not bashing the crew for anything they did or didn't do, so don't misunderstand me here.

If I was unfortunate enough to be caught out in cloud in a mountain valley and I had TAWS, and an appreciation of the best escape option came to this conclusion, I would go straight up the guts of the valley according to the TAWS display in a best angle of climb configuration. Aim being of course to keep as far away as possible from terrain that you could fly in to, then keep working at getting on an airway and following a procedure to get visual. This is hypothetical however, it hasn't happened to me, I don't know how it would work in practice. I'm just contemplating this question on reflection of the accident.

I just don't accept at this point that the TAWS will be all red and thus be of no real assistance, that's just not what I see on the TAWS display on the GNS530 when I'm flying in the PNG mountains, valleys included. You have a different opinion about this, fine. Sure, you get plenty of strange TAWS warnings, they can be annoying, but on the GNS530 the graphical display is good at giving you an appreciation of the surrounding terrain. Certainly a much better predictive appreciation of the terrain than not having it.

Your point about keeping a wing tip tight against the valley side is of course valid, to give you the best option of turning around, and the rest of it, but that only applies if you have and can maintain visual reference to the ground. We're talking here about, what do you do once having lost visual reference? That appears to be what happened here. The APNG flight could not land at Kokoda due to the weather (otherwise they would have landed), and they probably remained in the weather until the point of impact (otherwise they wouldn't have flown into the mountain).

As I said I don't know what the TAWS was indicating prior to the impact, there are too many unknown variables at play. For all I know it might not have given them any warning, and it might have been telling them they were somewhere other than where they were. What can't be argued is, if they had no visual reference, the only device they had for determining their position was the GPS. So obviously TAWS and the GPS will be an important aspect of the investigation, and if the data can be extracted from the unit then it could go along way towards explaining what happened.

And that's what people want to know, what happened.

[eagle 86]

DE
Rather arrogant post old mate. Shows a distinct lack of knowledge about the subject of military aviation. Check my profile - I have no axe to grind and, yes I have flown in PNG.
In over thirty years of mil operations in PNG I can think of only one fatal but a number of civvy fatals come to mind.
GAGS
E86

[Chimbu chuckles]

We didn't, in a 200 series Twotter, unless there was a valley to follow to lower terrain/the coast...300 series was better. In IMC at LSALT you always had a drift down plan in the back of your mind in case one quite.

The DHC6 is the single greatest bush plan ever designed.

[Chimbu chuckles]

That only applies if you have and can maintain visual reference to the ground. We're talking here about what do you do once having lost visual reference? That appears to be what happened here. The APNG flight could not land at Kokoda due to the weather (otherwise they would have landed), and they probably remained in the weather until the point of impact(otherwise they wouldn't have flown into the mountain)

You DO NOT know that. I can tell you what they were NOT doing and that is tooling along in IMC and then whacked into 'a mountain' sticking up in front of them.

I do have an idea what MIGHT have happened because it has happened to me - I HAVE seen EXACTLY what they saw in their last seconds but I got away with it. THAT is why I WILL NOT be drawn into any more of your inane posts and why I won't do anything other than help people to understand the challenges they faced.

[groper]

If you haven't operated in PNG it would be best to just listen and learn.

You don't need to be IMC to 'lose it' in that place, even though you're visual. It can be quite surprising to find one has no visual horizon due to terrain and need to refer to the AH/AI for pitch info rather than be fooled by illusions. It can all quickly turn to worms in a low performance aircraft.

The only time I felt safe there was departing Moresby to the south or at 30,000 ft in a Canberra taking survey photos.

[bia botal]

And that's what people want to know, what happened.

gulliBell, you had me right up to your second paragraph, but i afraid i have to go with CC, the only safe option when approaching strips like kokoda etc, is against the valley wall vmc, whilst your way at higher altitudes may be in your view the safer option, in poor condition i would conclude that you would never get in, for you are relying on become vmc at some stage closer to the field, thus taking yourself into a area that had you been vmc under cloud may have form the view that a approach was not possible a retreated much earlier. In my time very few people flew imc in the highlands, there would be the odd person that would do goroka-hagan on gps imc, that would just send a shiver up my back, for sure around the islands it happened every day ie hoskin-kandrian but strict adherance to over water cloud break was always carried out(well by me anyway)...... But of course there where always people who would push there luck, many survive, and as we all know many did not. has there ever been an accident in png that didn't involve weather??? whilst it would be totally unacceptable to say why this accident accured, i wager we,ve all cast our memories back to the loss of "fish" and MAS twotter and note the simalaritys.

[wotthe]

G'day Sharpie

Thanks for the representation during the ,79 pilots' strike, pity it didn't pan out the way everyone would've liked.

Left DA 3 weeks before DNL went in and I'm only going on an extremely reliable source but it was a while ago now.

Did do some research and did actually have a copy of the final report somewhere, will have to go deeper, for my own edification now as you've got me thinking.

[denabol]

Chimbu Chuckles,

Some time back I was on a scuba trip to Walindi on West New Britain just after an incident in which an F 28 shot off the Kimbe (?) runway into the drink. Was that the one you recall or was there another at Madang?

[Trojan1981]

Eagle,
I have not flown in PNG as a pilot. I have flown as a Crewman (ADF/Civil) and as a passenger on civil and military a/c.

To say the ADF has had only one fatal accident compared to many civil accidents in PNG is to ignore the fact that there are far more civil aircraft, conducting far more difficult operations than the ADF would attempt, to remote locations in PNG every day, year round. They are professionals.
I think DE has a good point.
With luck, fair weather and common sense, the ADF crews will stay safe.

[wessex19]

and soon there will be no caribou to support ADF ops in PNG when tragedies like this occur!!
condolences to all involved

[firegrass]

For guliBell

TAWS shows all red when trying to get up the river into Tabubil in a DHC8.
Scared the crap out of me! I already "now" that there are f#$%ing HUGE mountains all around me!
Better to keep your eyes outside and "see & avoid".
TAWS is great for situational awareness, but it does have limitations when used
in a mixed VFR/IFR environment. Which is what flying in PNG is.

PS When you inevitably have to go IMC below LSALT a nice tight climbing turn will have to do. Just hope there's nothing in your way! It worked for some of us.....
Unfortunately it didn't work for others....

[tinpis]

Off topic I know, but in days gone by, it was not unusual to turn up WWII wrecks while on searches in that area.

[HANOI]

Denabol....

The F28 at Hoskins did not go into the drink , It went thru the fence at the other end due to a brake problem ( "Splash" was flying it ).
Later on the same day a Talair Bandit descended into the water whilst also making an approach to Hoskins.

[denabol]

Thanks Hanoi.

Couldn't even remember the name of the strip right, but do remember having the best scuba diving of a lifetime . I flew around some other parts of PNG too in light aircraft up to the size of a Bandierante, which didn't strike me as all that light but solid as a brick dunny. I reckon it is one of the most exciting places on earth, to fly or travel, and I hope this accident doesn't discourage our youngsters from exploring it. Safer being in the air I think than being in Port Moresby after dark.

[High 6]

Hanoi, you are correct with the PX incident in Hoskins, the F28 sufferred damage to the nosewheel area from the low perimeter fencing on the overrun on RW 12 and was flown out a week or so later after repairs. The Talair bandit went into the sea between Bialla and Hoskins and I believe nothing has never been found to this day. This was a particular bad day because I think one of the Defence Force aircraft involved in the bandit search also had an incident with a heavy landing at Hoskins.

From memory, Pixie has only ever had the hull loss in Madang, and to date have never had a fatality in 34 years of operations, although as in every company there have been some close ones. The F28 operation was by the far some of the best flying in the world... ever!! :ok:

Regarding RAAF aircraft written off on PNG training missions, there have been a few helicopter crashes over the years involved mainly in high altitude training, and Caribous have been left behind in Tufi, Eliptamin and the Kudgeru gap. I don't doubt that the training is high, but the lack of continuous experience in country was a significant factor in most of the incidents. I think DE has raised a valid point of concern.

[KRviator]

To say the ADF has had only one fatal accident compared to many civil accidents in PNG is to ignore the fact that there are far more civil aircraft, conducting far more difficult operations than the ADF would attemptTrue, but arguably that's only because 173 were incredibly lucky when they lost their Twin Otter up there.

[tinpis]

Caribou left at Porgera as well.

[skol]

From the Herald:

'The airline hired former Air NZ/Ansett CEO Gary Toomey in June to drive its expansion plans.'

I wouldn't hire Toomey to drive my car.

One unlucky airline, I thought 'Absolutely' Toomey had been put out to pasture.

[Pinky the pilot]

go IMC below LSALT a nice tight climbing turn will have to do. Just hope there's nothing in your way! It worked for some of us.....


I only ever had to do that once. In a thankfully empty BN2, maintaining the turn whilst climbing from just over 5,000 to just over 11,000.'

Got back to Moresby, climbed into my car and then, for about ten seconds had a severe dose of the shakes!

I have never been so scared, before or since!

[telephonenumber]

There's media talk of a 14th person on board.

[groper]

Most of the Caribou prangs were due to mistakes that one would more than likely have been able to recover from in Australia e.g pressing too far up a closed valley, pressing approaches that should have been abandoned much earlier, lack of appreciation of a poor (low) approach, mis-identifying airfield. They serve to reinforce the unforgiving nature of flying in PNG....and Irian Jaya.

There was also a write off at Tapini and another damaged at Efogi - but that one may have been airframe age deterioration.

I think the only fatal Caribou accident was the Kudgeru but, that was a particularly bad one with an aircraft full of PNG Army cadets. I think 3 or 4 kids miraculously walked out of it.

[chainsaw]

A4-202 crashed at Porgera on 11th June 1965

A4-147 crashed while landing at Tapini on 6th October 1968

A4-233 crashed in the Kudgeru Gap on 28th August 1972

A4-164 crashed on takeoff at Eliptamin on 18th October 1978

A4-285 damaged while landing at Efogi on the 5th September 2008 (recovered and scrapped)

Details courtesy of Darren Crick, ADF Serials - RAAF A4 De Havilland DHC-4 Caribou (http://www.adf-serials.com/3a4.shtml)

[Amelia_Flashtart]

telephonenumber - the talk of the 14th person has already been proven incorrect it seems.

[Exaviator]

Hi Tinpis,

"I found keeping at least TWO back doors open worked for me
When this sort of thing happens at this level of the game, it makes you wonder, and wonder again how lucky you where."

You never know when the fickle hand of fate is going to point its bony finger at you and change your life for better or worse, but as for luck I think that we all have a hand determining it, largely based on the decisions that we make in life. :hmm:

[blackhand]

Just landed back at Jacksons this afternoon.
Channel 9 in everyones face as I came out of the terminal.
Don't they just love it.

Word in the street is that wouldn't be such a big deal if only nationals involved.

And yes it appears as CFIT.

Will check at the Aero Club and Weigh Inn for more info

Cheers
Blackhand

[Torres]

Chainsaw. You missed one Cairbou prang at Tufi, the work of a (now) CASA manager! :E

[eagle 86]

Trojan et al,
First check my profile - I have no axe to grind. I currently train ADF pilots.
The ADF, aircrew included, are at the beck and call of the Government to go anywhere at any time to do what ever is required in peace and war. The current day ADF aircrew are extremely well trained, closely supervised and risk managed. Can you imagine the CH47 crews saying "sorry can't go to Afghanistan - haven't been there!" a place, I would suggest, that is a little more hostile than PNG both from the point of view of ambient conditions (DA, sandstorms so thick that you can't see your hand in front of your face) and a small matter of less than friendly locals armed with a bit more than bows and arrows.
Yes ADF aircraft do crash with distressing results - that's because, inter alia, the boundaries are further out there. I could suggest that there should be no pilot error accidents in the civvy world - but, hey I've been there, I know what commercial pressures, ego and pride can do!
I would have no hesitation in giving this and similar tasks to ADF aircrew.
GAGS
E86

[amos2]

Chimbu Chuck has said, and I quote...

"You DO NOT know that. I can tell you what they were NOT doing and that is tooling along in IMC and then whacked into 'a mountain' sticking up in front of them.

I do have an idea what MIGHT have happened because it has happened to me - I HAVE seen EXACTLY what they saw in their last seconds but I got away with it. THAT is why I WILL NOT be drawn into any more of your inane posts and why I won't do anything other than help people to understand the challenges they faced."

Do you think you might be "up yourself" a bit, Chuck?

[blackhand]

Spoke with the pilot who located the crash site.
And it was not Capt Inau.
The Twin Otter was definitely in IMC at the time, did a go around into the Kokoda Gap and then turned right while in the Gap.

Watched the local news at Aero Club, Simon Wild confirmed definitely 13 Souls on board and lost.
One no show which may have caused the confusion about the 12th pax.


Cheers
Blackhand

[Chimbu chuckles]

NO I don't think I am being up myself.

Many moons ago while crossing a gap (in a thankfully empty Twotter) at low level, in light rain, the gap closed out and as I turned away from it the drizzle turned instantly to cloud - I had heard that was possible but never really believed it. I found myself, within seconds, in IMC at a few 100' agl with higher terrain close and all around me - I pushed everything forward and pulled the nose up high to zoom climb turning towards where I knew lower terrain was, and roared up a ridge line (probably 30 degrees nose up) still in IMC with trees literally flicking past the wheels. I was pondering how I would stall into the trees, and wondering whether I would survive it, when the top of the ridge came into view (still IMC) and a pushed over the top and found myself in VMC again - and then I started shaking.

That is why I don't judge this crews actions or hypothesize about why they may have found themselves in IMC and why they hit the ground - because I have been there and know how quickly you can go from PNG 'normal ops' to dead.

What is also getting up my nose is gullibels assumptions that they had carried out some form of approach to Kokoda maybe using technology not designed for that - missed due not getting visual and then CFIT'd during subsequent 'procedural' manouvering. No one who has the experience he claims to have would even use the language he uses - they'd know that there are no procedures around a grass airstrip in a mountain valley.

The crash site is < 1nm from Isurava - they couldn't get there unless via the Kokoda Gap - its impossible to crash where they did if they have already been over Kokoda at low level. They are reported as saying, via HF, that they were descending toward Kokoda and then that they are climbing again due weather - and then they died. They were tracking via the Gap. Pilots who have flown over the crash site say the aircraft was definately 'nose high' when they impacted - as in a zoom/full power climb.

I have been there but was luckier than they were - not better, just luckier.

[amos2]

So when you were flying the SLF around NG all those years ago...

did you brief them that that it could go from "normal ops to dead" rather quickly?

[Pinky the pilot]

amos2; Re your last post. You are way, way out of line. Pull your head in!!:mad::mad:

[P51D]

I was in PNG when the Caribou went missing and around that time a few C206's disappeared in quick succession, some never to be found again. Chuck is providing a very good narrative of what it's like and what confronted this crew. It is very hostile country, as I found doing the start of my licence, and not for the faint hearted. Come out of PNG and you're not bad at it. Don't know whether you've been there Amos2 but if not you are definately in the Obie category. Chuck up himself? - you are a dork Amos!

[bia botal]

Pinky if you read some other post by amos2 you will work out pretty quickly that he is a obnoxious moron who does little more that fire off snide remarks at people because he is incapable of anything close to constructive comments.

[Wiley]

Chimbu, I have a very similar story to tell. To Obie and others, who have no experience of the rapidly – and I mean rapidly – changing weather conditions in the PNG Highlands, here’s an example, not unlike Chimbu’s tale above, where, through no fault of my own, I went closer to meeting my Maker than I care to admit.

I’ve cut and pasted from an as yet (and probably never to be) published account of some of my experiences in PNG. The aircraft we were flying was an UH-1H Iroquois. ...we were operating out of Mendi in the Western Highlands during the ‘Gammon Famine’.

We were taking food supplies from Mendi out to the villages on the West Irian border where the famine had struck hardest, (or if you want to be cynical, where the coming independence and politics dictated maximum aid had to be seen to be given to the local population).

On that particular sortie, we were carrying a load of kau kau, the leafy tuber vegetable that was the staple food for people in the area. Kau kau is a type of sweet potato and it contains a lot of water, so it could be pretty heavy. It was to be the last flight of the day, and the usual afternoon thunderstorms and heavy cloud cover were very much in evidence.

My co-pilot (in the left seat) was flying the aircraft as we crossed the saddle of the Mendi Gap heading West. There was a lot of cloud about, but mostly blue sky immediately above and ahead of us, although the clouds were pretty heavily banked up against the high ridge line immediately to our left – (i.e., very much ‘situation normal’ for the Southern Highlands at that time of day). We were carrying a pretty heavy load – I think it had been yet another ‘bouncing down the runway’ running takeoff, which were pretty much the norm out of Mendi if carrying kau kau – so we passed through the saddle quite low, maybe only fifty feet above the tops of the trees. (The terrain leading up to the Gap on its Eastern side is relatively steep, but drops away quite gently to the West.)

As we crossed the lowest point in the saddle, we both noticed an enormous bright orange orchid in the top of the tree that was immediately below us. I don’t think it would be an exaggeration to say it was three feet (30 centimetres) across.

It was only moments after we had passed the orchid that it happened – like a breaker at a surf beach and in about as long as it takes to say it, the clouds on the ridge line to our left just came tumbling down the hillside on to us, all the way down into the treetops. One moment we were in the clear – the next, in the gloop.

We were still quite close to the hillside to our left, so a turn to the right was our only option. XXXX kicked the aircraft into a steep turn and handed over to me, because being on the inside of the turn, I had a clearer view of the treetops. He would have been only three or four feet higher than I was in the turn, but it made a difference in how much he could see of the trees. We were in very thick cloud, and I flying on instruments, but with one eye out the right window so I could stay visual with the treetops, which were only vaguely visible and wreathed in cloud themselves, I kept the aircraft in a very steep turn as I attempted to get back the way we had come.

I hadn’t noted our exact course as we’d crossed the Gap, but I was very much aware that I really needed to turn onto the reciprocal to our original track, because the terrain rose quite sharply either side of the saddle.

As a last resort, if the turn back didn’t get us back below the cloud base, we could pull pitch and climb until we broke out on top, but at that time of day, whether we would get above the clouds was by no means guaranteed, and, I forget now what the lowest safe altitude was in that area, but it was considerably higher than 10,000 feet, and we had no oxygen. We also didn’t carry enough fuel to have instrument flight reserves – and from Mendi, it was a very long way to any navigation aids we could use to do an instrument approach. So, all in all, staying visual was by far the preferred option – although this was a lot easier said than done.

We’d just rolled out of the turn on what was more or less the reciprocal track when I saw the big orange orchid in my chin window and the moment we passed over it, I dropped the pitch lever and started a descent. We broke clear of cloud almost immediately and went straight back to Mendi and called it a day. It needs to be said that most of the civil operators flying C206s of similar did not have the "pull pitch and get above the LSA" option available to them.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Nope I never did. I credited the people who sat behind me with enough brains to know they were no longer in Kansas.

I happen to believe the overall safety record in PNG is very good - considering the reality of day to day operations there. It just isn't possible to judge PNG operations by Australian standards.

[Wiley]

More from my probably never to be published recollections of PNG flying., ...the Highlands of New Guinea presented some of the most demanding and challenging flying conditions likely to be encountered anywhere in the world. A deadly combination of very high, incredibly rugged terrain and treacherous weather that could deteriorate dramatically quite literally within minutes had led to the deaths of very many pilots over the years since aircraft had first started operating in the New Guinea Highlands before World War Two in support of the large gold discoveries in the area around Wau and Bulolo.

The country was so liberally littered with aircraft wrecks that pilots sometimes navigated from crash site to crash site as they made their way from one remote destination to another. To make life easier for searchers looking for a newly crashed aircraft, known wrecks were marked with large yellow crosses, and despite the very large number of known wrecks, in 1972 there were still over one thousand(!) crashed Allied aircraft scattered about the country that had never been located. That’s 1,000 Allied aircraft and does not include an unknown but large number of Japanese aircraft that never returned to their bases, many more of them lost, (just as it was for the Americans and the Australians during World War 2), to the weather and mechanical failure rather than to enemy action.

[Massey058]

I happen to believe the overall safety record in PNG is very good - considering the reality of day to day operations there. It just isn't possible to judge PNG operations by Australian standards.


Agreed. When you compare it to across the border. In Papua province alone this year there have already been 3 CFIT accidents, 2 from the same company!

[peuce]

My observation from the TV News ...

Those Blackhawk drivers seem to be doing a pretty good job of it at the crash site.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Obnoxious:

AMOS: So when you were flying the SLF around NG all those years ago...

did you brief them that that it could go from "normal ops to dead" rather quickly?

Matey you have no IDEA, none whatsoever:

Chimbu, I am impressed with your narrative, very accurate, born from experience, always good to read.

Chr's
H/Snort.:ok:

[poteroo]

Risk Management

Waaay back in my day, (60's), pax knew the risks, and they were willing to take them - because it was a long walk as the alternative. And we didn't have time to discuss risk because we were busy doing the job we were trained for. Nowadays, society seems to want every little clause of a contract spelled out in excruciating detail - because they fundamentally want someone else to blame for any untoward event.

One of my early checkies noted..... it really helps up here to have x-ray vision and big bxlls, but for we ordinary pilots - just be cautious..... and take more fuel ....

Yes, PNG isn't for the faint hearted, neither is it for the foolhardy.

poteroo (STOL,SPAC 1967-70)

[tipsy2]

Don't worry too much about poor old Amos2, every year about this time he comes back to pprune to vent his spleen and make a few posts. He then mercifully disappears for another 12 months. Something about August gets up his nose and then he gets up everbody elses.

tipsy............................

[autoflight]

I think that many readers will not understand that seasoned PNG pilots have a contantly changing definition of safe visual flight, depending on terrain, weather, time of day, escape routes and a gut feeing that tells him/her if it is better to give it away for another time. And it doesn't have too much to do with VMC/IMC definitions.

If we allow commercial or competitive pressures or any other reason to degrade our established definition of safe visual flight, the safety of the flight is no longer within our ordinary minimum accepted conditions. The object is to get the job done without crossing that line.

[bushy]

Looks like synthetic vision could be very useful in PNG, if the mountains allow reception from satelites.

[coolchange666]

I knew Jenny Moala but as a collegue not a friend. What can I say. APNG has a zero tolerance approach to taking weather risks and have never, to my knowledge at least, given any pilot a "negative experience" because of an abort or a weather related decision. I can only conclude she was unexpectedly caught out in the worst possible way.

There is no way known Jenny would have been attempting any of those stupid acts suggested elsewhere in this thread. She would have been attempting a standard VMC approach to Kokoda. Of that I am certain.

Last tuesday I flew over the gap 2 hours before her flight and I can confirm what others have said that there was a layer of stratus on both sides of the ranges.. tops around 9,000 extending north east to the coast and covering Moresby to the south west. God only knows what was below that but obvioulsly it was not good.

The press reports have been almost uniformly appalling and inaccurate. They have reported her uncle as saying she joined APNG earlier this year?!?! Jenny worked with APNG for years just as Simon Wild said. Tho she did only finish her command training in May.

How do newbies actually get their PNG experience these days? When I started it was thru a process of route and strip endorsements. The training pilot would methodically point out low level and escape routes, typical weather patterns, minimum heights for a missed approach etc. Then you were set loose on your 206 or islander. But not before getting the drill on flying to the right in a valley, crossing ridges at an angle, manoeuvring with the horizon obscured by mountains and more... all good stuff. Any blanks in the training were hopefully small and soon plugged by experience.

I dont profess to know anything about what happened last tuesday, but I have a definite dislike of diving down valleys hemmed in by cloud. I got my scare just south of the kudgeru.. taking the valley down to sea level in a loaded 206. The space I had to operate in got smaller and smaller and the aircraft didn't have the climb performance to climb back up the valley. The cloud was on the ground at the bottom but fortunately there was a break... not a nice feeling.. having no options. But that never happened again.. ever. Experience is a wonderful thing.

These days as piston flying has all but died, it seems that experience is passed through osmosis as a newbie will invariable do a longish stint as FO in something like an otter. Is this approach as good as before? dunno, but we are stuck with it I suppose.

Lets hope when the dust settles we can all learn something from this accident and if anyone is eventually held accountable that they truly deserve it.

[Metro man]

Normally, once you reach a certain level of experience you are pretty safe. Not in PNG though. Someone with thousands of hours and years in the country can go to work and on that particular day the holes in the swiss cheese line up resulting in a fatal accident.

There are so many traps waiting, from false gaps in the ranges to temperature and dew point suddenly closing. In less than three months up there I remember two bad accidents. Looking for a crashed aircraft and the subsequent recovery of the bodies isn't something I ever want to repeat.

Years on, and now surrounded by more safety features than I could ever have imagined before, I still feel for those aviators risking their lives in the highlands.:(

[poteroo]

Last pic looks like Simbai in the Adelbert Ranges, Madang District ??

[Spotlight]

Airplane hits a hill. At a certain level of experience/job description it could have happened to any of us.

[Barkly1992]

Tinpis - :ok: I had to go back and locate AMOSdigit to see what prompted your incisive comment.

Talk about laid back darwinian.

Reminds me of 'Bill the Ringer'.

:ok:

[TWOTBAGS]

I just want to show what some places are like and what is expected of the crews.

This place is Noqui, Northern Angola, one way strip,terrain not as big but very similar to PNG

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z96/redlum5x5/114-1460_IMG.jpg

Noqui Dry Season, looking at the hill at the end of the runway

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z96/redlum5x5/114-1466_IMG.jpg

Noqui Wet Season, who stole the mountain????

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z96/redlum5x5/125-2521_IMG.jpg

rapidly changing weather, few options and terrain..... all makes for a bad day.

[tinpis]

poteroo

Last pic looks like Simbai in the Adelbert Ranges, Madang District ??

It does too, bum bitey seat buttons on T/O?

[Pinky the pilot]

Someone with thousands of hours and years in the country can go to work and on that particular day the holes in the swiss cheese line up resulting in a fatal accident.

Indeed, Metro man. My second last employer there fell into that category and 'bought the farm' crossing a ridge, something he was always impressing upon us to be done with great caution, especially in marginal weather.

RIP RR.:sad:

[disdruma]

Hey Wiley I remem gam fam With all that vert scenery not always cloud related probs Out of Mendi way back when bound Margarima. Unusual for such low lats BIG westerley flow.
Equip was C206 full of kiaps etc. When in the gap instead of resembling a U at about 20 deg down elevation VSI perpendicular and gap looked like a wine glass from the stem.

Stall warns giong ape and failry steep turn 2 get out. Missed yr red orchid. and gen consensis of all was back 2 the MENDI val club for a few SPs.

Unforgiving country. PS if that was Simbai its almost a metropolis.

[High 6]

I suppose we should all be grateful that the rescue operation has been pulled off successfully and there were no further incidents.

There have been tragic incidents in the past where other lives were lost in the rescue operations. I remember during the search for the baron that went down in the Tomba Gap,(early 80's), one of the searchers got out to clean the window she would be looking out of and walked into the turning prop of the BN2 on the tarmac in Hagen, killing her instantly. very,very sad!

Back to the current issue, any updates from the crash site? Any good links with photographs? Have all the bodies been recovered?

[an3_bolt]

Would it be fair to say that the aim of the task is to bring the deceased home to their loved ones so that the grieving process can be completed?

I know personally the feeling to be able to help in the aftermath of a tragedy. To help those in need in giving by oneself.........

Does it really matter who completes the job though? The task is not for us or our egos - it is for the families who have lost their loved ones.

Pissing into wind about aircraft "colours" (just like ****** gang dudes) helps no body. Think of the big picture and put your egos aside - like I remember we all used to do when flying in PNG. PNG flying I remember was a team environment where everyone helped everyone and no one was out to be the hero.

The grieving families come first and foremost.:ok:

[frigatebird]

Well said Chuck.
There always seems to be a lack of appreciation of civilian input to military operations. I put it down to the brainwashing and "Top Gun" attitude drilled in at officers school. And they get to play with the latest expensive toys. Remember years ago when the chief engineer and self hitched a ride back to Santo on a N.Z. Hercules on cyclone relief. They had landed there on the way up, and were taking a load of food back, and the High Comm got us a lift to pick up a plane. Came up the front as we crossed the coast to ask and watch the landing. The N.Z. Flight Lt. and American A.F. Capt. had changed places on this leg. They went past the town, headed out S.E., did a turn, came back, slowed up, flaps down, gear down, went down. (good weather). At about 600', I said on the intercom "are we going to land on this strip?" "yes" they said. "well as far as I am aware" I said, "this is an old coral WW2 bomber strip with a fence across it and they run cattle, the main airport is on the eastern side of the town". We got a little lower, they put on power, climbed up, went over to the east, and we landed at Pekoa. Never said a word to me or the chief engineer. Not a word of thanks, a joke, or anything. To embarassed I guess... Telling it now won't hurt anyones career, it was a quarter century ago. ANYONE can make a mistake or forget, or have a bad day, no matter what they fly, what nationality they are, or how good they think they are... Just remember Carters hostage rescue fiasco in the desert...

[Bill Frost]

Have been reading PNG threads for years and this activates me to contribute. Those with experience and common sense stand out. My first year in TPNG was in 1970 which Jim Sinclair reminded us in Balus was a notable year for fatal crashes. In September I had lunch at Kokoda where I was based with Water Resource passengers waiying for their Aztec from Moresby. Two hours later I was airborne in normal afternoon wx looking for their wreckage. During this search I was directed to a shiny flash observed on the normally cloud enveloped Mt Scratchley. It turned out to be a US Navy C47 missing since 1944 from memory and had not been seen before because it was at 12,000 ft.
I very much identify with flying under limited VFR conditions in the mountains as most commercial helicopters back in the 70's were only equipped with engine instruments and a magnetic compass. A Bell 47 with its limited power was a wonderful training ground for later operations in larger machines which still lacked artificial horizons. As a helicopter pilot I envied the fuel endurance of fixed wing but will admit to a preference for the emergency landing options of a helicopter should the mist fully clag in

[Much Ado]

I have deleted a few posts that were heading off in a less than helpful direction. Its a great thread, even better when we all play on the same team:ok:

[Trojan1981]

Glad to see they are getting decent wx for the recovery. not many soties canned so far.:ok:
Anyone know when services might recommence?

[wes_wall]

strapped
Agree with you completely. This is really a different type of flying than most of us have ever or will ever experience. Question, not to be flip, but is there ever strick VFR conditions in PNG?

[tinpis]

I wouldn't bet on it wes_wall
May start out good but you can bet you will have to "bend" the rules somewhere during the day.
In my day of compass and watch no nav-aids, the general consensus was that if you didnt scare yourself silly at least once a week, you weren't trying hard enough.

This dude KNOWS where he is going
Imagine if you didnt?

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[chimbu warrior]

Great video Tinny.

Here are a couple more (not mine unfortunately).

TSDrGlgxi1U

Not in PNG, but very similar YouTube - Flying to Folopa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSDrGlgxi1U&feature=related)

766T6LRUfM8

YouTube - MAF - landing at Kafa, PNG (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=766T6LRUfM8&feature=related)

BTW, where was that thread on how to embed a video?

[illusion]

Foreign Correspondent - ABC1 Television Guide (http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/netw/200908/programs/NC0902H007D18082009T200000.htm)

ABC running a story on PNG aviation made PRIOR to this.

[Trojan1981]

Great video Tinpis

I saw some very similar flying in Timor on an MI-8 and regularly saw Lloyds 212s taking off into similar conditions for Medivac ops.
Brilliant pilots, great skill set but obviously honed through fair wx experience in that terrain. Idon't believe the particular MI-8 on which I flew posessed a GPS at the time.

[Pinky the pilot]

Strapped, How much PNG time you got?

[TunaBum]

Foreign Correspondent - ABC1 Television Guide (http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/netw/200908/programs/NC0902H007D18082009T200000.htm)

ABC running a story on PNG aviation made PRIOR to this. (http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/netw/200908/programs/NC0902H007D18082009T200000.htm)

I wonder if they will cover the inadequacies in the passenger liability compensation system? 30,000 Kina wont go far! :yuk:

TB

[tinpis]

trojan, as the chimbus and others that post on here will testify, we operated in a damn sight worse than what those vids show, we just never got to film it!
What may be lost on strapped and others is that the contractors EXPECT the planes to arrive, thats how mines, tourism, etc stay open. If that poor girl had of sat drinking tea waiting for a 'perfect VFR day' to learn the ropes,the wheels of industry would grind to a halt , and nobody would be able to humbug the proceeds :hmm::rolleyes:

Unless its all changed.

[slider1969]

Nothing has changed, except maybe airstrips aren't as well maintained and less NDB's!

[Trojan1981]

I understand. I have not seen it worse than that and don't think I want to:eek:. I have nothing but respect for the pilots who fly regularly, and necessarily, in these conditions.

[geeup]

tinpis if you liked the video of the 206 at Frieda you would have enjoyed being upfront in the otter that was resuppling it and the camp... :ooh:

[coolchange666]

hi wes wall.. in PNG the VMC criteria for below 3000ft is clear of cloud in sight of the surface.. gets similar to Oz above 3000ft.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yeah above 3000' (and lets face it in the highlands the bottoms of the valleys are more like 4500+) and below LSALT its not in cloud or on a safe heading.:ok:

Below 3000' (usually 2500+' below) in the Gulf/Western Province/coastal/inter island it is 'can see good straight down'.:ok:

[hoggsnortrupert]

Tosser:

Mach Twelve: Well said.

You know C & Tng, is a difficult thing, as a C &Tng Capt you do your Dam best to cover all bases and ask all sorts of Questions, there comes a point after a series of repetitious trips and the companies training schedule complied with, and more importantly you as a C &T are happy, and you realize that your sitting in the RH seat as C&t, you have nothing more to contribute to a candidate.

I always use the "am I happy to put my trouble &strife and ankle biters behind this candidate" as a yard stick!.

All this said, there is always going to be the odd time when a candidate/pax/A/c may perish.

On this day, this dear lady was unlucky! as was her Co pilot and Pax.

H/Snort.:(

[hoggsnortrupert]

Love the fumes, almost as good as Castrol R & 130 Octane:

Jet mate, I think your opinion is flawed mate, it is a difficult place to operate and has been proven as such over the years,

Now! Q: I think any risk assessment that accepts a fatal accident as a consequence of operating a service is fundamentally flawed. No human life is worth a commercial air service. None, zero, zip, nada full stop.

So do I, I agree, but who's to say it is acceptable?

And! Q: Yes air services are essential to PNG and yes air services are dangerous in PNG. However Airlines PNG are not a charity, and they are not part of the government. They are accepting the consequences of operating, being four fatal Twotter accidents and 40+ fatalities in 15 years in return for $$.
So you acknowledge the dificulties and that it is dangerous.

So do I.

And! Q; They are accepting the consequences of operating, being four fatal Twotter accidents and 40+ fatalities in 15 years in return for $$.

I happen to think they are doing rather well, considering they are "perhaps" the primary mover of meat around the interior, when in recent years past TAlair had 7 accidents in twelve years,Talair 01 Apr 1981 Mt. Hagen, Papua, New Guinea Cessna 402 Talair 14 Jan 1983 Near Karimui, Papua New Guinea Britten Norman BN-2A-20 Trislander Talair 06 Sep 1984 Mt. Musaka, Papua, New Guinea Britten-Norman BN-2A-20 Islander Talair 06 Feb 1987 Off Papua, New Guinea Embraer 110P2 Bandeirante Talair 08 Dec 1987 Kanabea, Papua New Guinea Britten-Norman BN-2A-2 Islander Talair 21 Jul 1989 Porgera, New Guinea de Havilland Canada DHC-6 Twin Otter 300 Talair 15 Apr 1992 Near Goroka, Papua New Guinea Embraer 110P1 Bandeirante.

To say accepting human lives against profit is acceptable is abhorrent to me, and I guess to a good many other folk in the business.

One could hazard a guess that perhaps it is safer today than was of yester year!

But just my opinion:

H/Snort.

[chimbu warrior]

Having a little experience in the risk management area in aviation, plus a history in PNG, I cannot allow trhe previous comments to go unchallenged.

Risk assessment is a developing science, particularly in aviation. It takes into account a wide variety of threats, but also considers appropriate risk control measures. The purpose of risk assessment is not to find excuses to avoid certain types of operations, but to identify threats and apply appropriate control measures.

High risk activities take place in aviation every day, all over the world. Examples are ETOPS (a classic risk assessment strategy; considering the probability of an engine malfunction), ag flying (particularly night spraying), helicopter logging etc.

APNG have I am sure carefully considered the risks involved, and applied appropriate risk controls. These can include training, technology, techniques etc.

Nobody, but nobody, "accepts" an accident, nor are they as blase as you suggest about the loss of life involved.

The reasons that accidents occur in PNG are the same as the reasons they occur elsewhere; a compromise occurred. Sometimes that is due to human error, sometimes mechanical failure, sometimes due to external factors.

Flying in PNG remains no less safe than anywhere else - the environment and the procedures must be understood and respected.

[Captain Nomad]

Some 'see through cloud and rain' glasses for PNG pilots would be the best risk mitigation tool ever... Hopefully one day! :} But then you would need another 3 in the headset bag to mitigate the risk of them failing at the most inappropriate time...

[groper]

Foreign Correspondent on ABC 1 tonight at 8:00pm: "Last year we flew PNG's dangerous skies to expose the flaws in the system, and a government that didn't want to know. That official blind eye left deaths unanswered. Now as more families mourn has anything changed?"

[Diatryma]

PNG - Return to the Fatal Sky - Foreign Correspondent - ABC (http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2009/s2655403.htm)

Return to the Fatal Sky

Broadcast: 18/08/2009
Reporter: Trevor Bormann
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200908/r417289_1979093.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200908/r417289_1979096.jpg) To travel any distance in PNG, air travel is often the only viable option.


At Mount Hagen in the PNG Highlands a mother and father grieve the loss of bright and ambitious son who yearned to take the helm of an international airliner. Their commercial pilot son perished in a light-plane crash 2 years earlier and yet PNG’s aviation regulators had failed to examine why the crash had occurred. Glen and Veronica Kundun wanted answers and there were none.

“This is a life we are talking about! There must be an investigation. We must get to the bottom of it. Whether it is a technical fault, whether it is pilot error, these things have got to be known.” GLEN KUNDUN, FATHER OF PILOT PATRICK

Foreign Correspondent exposed a litany of failures and witnessed sloppy standards and seat-of-the-pants procedures. Some of the aviation outfits flying the PNG skies were plain dangerous others were largely unregulated and then there were questions about the requisite skills of pilots.

Perhaps most alarming of all was the inability or unwillingness of authorities to investigate what happened after things did go wrong. Insiders - frustrated and disheartened - spoke out.

“If we have a major prang here we can’t do a damned thing. Nobody can do anything. Now that is very serious.” SIDNEY O’TOOLE
SENIOR AIR CRASH INVESTIGATOR

Aviation insiders like Sidney O’Toole told us that over the past two decades airline safety standards had ‘fallen over the edge‘ and some were predicting disaster. That disaster has come to pass with the loss of 13 lives in the crash of a Twin Otter plane enroute to Kokoda.

Foreign Correspondent revisits some of the glaring problems exposed in our 2008 report and importantly speaks again with some of the key identities who participated. Others in our story continue to mourn – including an Australian family who lost a loved one and who await vainly for answers.

New accounts and perspectives about a deeply troubled and dangerous industry – this time against the heart-breaking backdrop of the Kokoda tragedy.


And here is a link to their August 2008 report:
Papua New Guinea - The Fatal Sky - Foreign Correspondent - ABC (http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/oldcontent/s2464246.htm)

Di

[Diatryma]

PNG crash investigator: I'm on my own

By Trevor Bormann (http://www.abc.net.au/profiles/content/s1888172.htm?site=news) for AM

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200908/r418985_1989091.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200908/r418985_1989096.jpg)

13 killed: The wreckage of the Twin Otter in the jungle near the Kokoda Track (AAP: Dave Hunt)

Audio: PNG crash was accident waiting to happen (AM) (http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/audio/am/200908/20090818-am07-flying-png.mp3)
Related Story: Kokoda crash 'first to be properly investigated' (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/17/2658554.htm)
Papua New Guinea's only air crash investigator says last week's fatal Kokoda plane crash was an accident waiting to happen, and he cannot even visit every crash site because money is so tight.
It is almost a week since a chartered Twin Otter aircraft with 13 people on board slammed into a mountainside near the Kokoda Track, with nine Australians among the dead.
It may be weeks before their remains can be taken home.
Australian expatriate Sidney O'Toole, who runs PNG's Air Crash Investigation branch, has told ABC1's Foreign Correspondent he runs a ludicrously lean operation, with a staffing situation which is "beyond critical".
He says he has an office, but no computer or dedicated fax; even now he has to use his own mobile phone on the job.
"I'm on my Pat Malone, to coin a phrase, and there's no backup," Mr O'Toole said.
It might not be a problem if it wasn't for the fact that PNG's skies are some of the most dangerous in the world.
With roads unable to penetrate much of this mountainous country, Papua New Guinea is highly dependent on its air network.
But its changeable weather and tiny hillside airstrips make the country a perilous place to fly.
Melbourne man Laurie Leslie lost his pilot brother Ian in a crash in 2007.
Ian's body was recovered but the wreckage remains at the accident site and there was never a proper investigation.
"I believe I've got closure on Ian's passing, but I would like to know what was the cause of the accident," Mr Leslie said.

'We're desperate'


In the last year alone there have been another 12 air crashes and Mr O'Toole says he has not been able to make it to them all.
"Our staffing situation is beyond critical. When I use the word desperate, I mean how desperate is desperate - it's just ludicrous having one man," he said.
Life was beginning to turn around for Mr O'Toole, with a new Accident Investigation Commission set up to get funds flowing.
He was dispatched to Canada to take an engine from a crashed aircraft back to the manufacturer for examination, which is where he was when the Twin Otter crashed near Kokoda.
"I can't be in two places at the same time," he said.
"I look at the resources and everything that have been provided by the Australian Government and there was absolutely, positively no way that our commission or the government of Papua New Guinea could respond in that manner."
Aviation analysts say this should be the start of better cooperation on air safety between the two countries.

-Trevor Bormann's report can be seen on Foreign Correspondent tonight on ABC1 at 8:00pm.

Di

[Captain Nomad]

Some of those 'facts' aren't quite straight... Ian didn't crash in 2007. I had been flying past his plane on the side of a mountain for over a year by then... 2007 was the year of the fatal cargo Bandit crash on New Britain though.

[Sharpie]

YOU CAN NOT KEEP A GOOD REPORTER DOWN.

Ian Leslie was killed in P2 - IDL December 2004. (forgot the date)

[Metro man]

Link to PNG accidents.:(

Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Registrations > Registration search results (http://aviation-safety.net/database/registration/regsearch.php?regi=P2-)

[The Vibe]

Does anyone have a picture of the Kokoda strip?

I have one here that shows it well but not sure how to load it up.

Whilst interesting to see the photo's and videos etc from Fane and the like and it brings back some fun memories from when I was flying there I think it might be a bit misleading to compare those to Kokoda.

Whilst the approach to Kokoda through the gap is quite difficult the strip itself is not quite as dramatic as those shown here.

I think that people saying they crashed on a go-around might be a bit misleading. More likely the case (and I am sitting half a world away now so this is only speculation from my previous knowledge of flying there) is that they where unable to land at Kokoda due weather and crashed en-route back to POM whilst trying to renavigate the gap.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Metro Man that is nothing like a comprehensive list - off the top of my head I can come up with another 1/2 dozen post 1987.

[Metro man]

You could try contacting them and providing them with the missing details.

Obviously accidents in developed countries are followed up a lot better and more comprehensive information is available about them, I sure they try their best with what's available.

It may be of interest to some people, even if it's not totally complete. It certainly brought back a few memories for me.

[ozangel]

While I respect that flying in PNG is remarkably different from anywhere else in our region (lived there for some time), is it really necessary to put down or dismiss anyone without 'PNG time' raising what might seem logical questions elsewhere?

Guys, its a rough place, sure. But really, get over yourselves. Flying a plane is flying a plane, and risk is still risk.

Safety and Risk can co-exist. It certainly does NOT in PNG right now. And those 'old hand' top guns are doing nothing for the positive cause.

If you're picking apart journalistic accuracy, you are REALLY missing the point.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Personally I don't think putting people 'without PNG time' down is needed either and I hope I don't do that - what I do get worked up about is people with no direct experience getting judgmental.

Ask any question and I will attempt to answer it honestly but when people start judging what PNG based pilots do or don't do I get a little antsy.

For me PNG is a VERY fond memory of the first nearly 14 years of my career - I have great respect for the guys and girls doing it now and ENORMOUS respect for the very small number of my mates, expat and local, from those years who still fly up there - some in Twin Otters, some in DHC8s, some in F100s and some in 767s.

I watched that ABC program tonight and was a little shocked at just how badly run down DCA is now - in my time it was staffed and functioned well - we drank at the Aeroclub Bar with the DCA examiners and investigators and socialized with them more generally. Sorted most stuff out over a million beers. The Senior Examiner of Airmen of DCA was my next door neighbor in the Talair compound. My then 3 yr old daughter would wander next door at sparrows to visit with Allan and Ruth Craigie (Uncle Alen and Aunty Root:} ) for vegemite toast. Allan, and his staff, understood us and there was real mutual respect - particularly when one of us went whistling through the compound in a Bandit and he just smiled and sipped on his beer:ok:

Talair was probably 90% of PNG domestic operations and was a HIGHLY professional operation with GREAT C&Ting, mostly excellent maintenance and the average pilot was very experienced. Yes there were accidents in those days (LOTS) but there was a LOT more aviation happening in those days and LOTS more in Piston singles and twins. I have no way of proving it but I suspect the safety record was better then than now even though the raw numbers suggest otherwise.

When Talair started getting out of pistons and concentrating on an all turbine operation with Otters and Bandits it did so by selling off bases like Lae, Wau, Popondetta, Rabaul, Hoskins etc, holus bolus. Many were bought by Talair staff - that is how North Coast and Airlink came into being. In the early 90s these operations were staffed in senior positions by ex Talair pilots and when Talair shut down in 92 the rest of us went to these other operators. That is how MBA ramped up to fill the void.

I went to Airlink in Rabaul and other than the Neo Nazi uniform it was exactly like still being in Talair - VERY high standards of experience and maintenance and, under Col Bubner et al (the owners) a no expense spared operation that made them a lot of money - just a blissful life.

Starting in 1994 airlines started recruiting again after the hiatus post 89. Within a year PX (and others) had stripped the guts of the experience out of PNG GA/3rd level airlines. Within 3 they, and others, had finished that process except for a VERY small cadre of ex Talair pilots/MBA pilots who were just too old/didn't want to or who couldn't pass the 4 days of BS testing.

Take a look at that list of accidents link above and look at the Airlink crashes - they all happened post 94 except a non fatal landing bingle in an Islander at Namatanai. From late 94/early 95 guys were joining Airlink on an Islander and progressing through the left seats of 402/404/Twotter to a Bandit in a year or less. Just before I went to PX I was doing 40 stick hours a week TRAINING.

Unheard of rates of promotion. And some were not as good as they thought they were. All of a sudden we were all in PX as Dash 7/F28 FOs and we were watching Bandits smack into ridge lines etc. It was very sad.

I had a million beers with Col Bubner in Madang on an overnight just before I left PNG in 1999. He paid me and my work mates a great compliment when he said words to the effect of "I had no idea how lucky I was to have you guys until you were all gone".

The reality was virtually every one of us who left PNG GA in 94/95/96 had been in GA in PNG for 8-10+ years. Mostly because the 89 dispute stopped normal industry progression dead in its tracks when 1700 odd guys flooded out to the world and the Oz domestics did more with less crews. Col was a good guy - didn't begrudge us our careers (no PNG operators ever did) but it was sad watching what had been an example of GA at its VERY BEST slide through Col's fingers. Airlink died (mostly) because inexperienced (or stupid) pilots were crashing it's aircraft.

The last 10+ years - well we have all seen the recent pilot shortage - it wasn't kind to any PNG operator, even PX.

MBA/APNG is, I believe, a good operator with high standards - I know Simon Wild and while we have had our differences of opinion in the long past I believe he runs a good operation. It was a steep learning curve to go from a small Charter Operation with a motley handful of aircraft to, not quite but essentially, Talair's replacement back in 1992/3. It would not be overstating it to suggest there are probably 10-12 guys there NOW who have between 22 and 35+ years experience in PNG (mostly ex Talair) but that there would have been enormous numbers of guys, and the odd girl, passing through for a year or 3 and then off to wherever in this last 10 years.

All that aside to suggest this young lady should not have been on that route is a bit silly. She'd have flown it MANY times in the RHS. Kokoda is a big flat strip in a fairly big wide valley - DC3s used to operate in there between the 50s and 70s.

I suspect the underlying cause of this tragedy might be VERY simple.

The first time I went through the Kokoda Gap was on a gin clear, calm morning and I went through on the trees - because its fun and you learn what it might be like in marginal weather.

After that it didn't take much weather in the Gap to have me back tracking and climbing to LSA. It also drove home the fact that if I was silly enough to be suckered through that Gap and couldn't proceed visually the only option was aim down the guts of the creek and climb on that heading.

In my day we flew everything single pilot and we never got in trouble for 'low flying' - even on the very rare occasion we were reported by someone.

I wonder if that is still the case?

I firmly believe a big part of the reason why most pilots survive PNG (lucky near misses aside) is this level of professional curiosity.

What will I do if?

In my experience you don't hit as hard as this aircraft did unless you're descending down a valley, picking up speed, and then try and turn around.

Maybe some young person working towards/holding a Twotter command there now might read this and take something from it that will help them to enjoy, to the maximum, the best flying on offer almost anywhere.

And no, Simon et al, I won't wear the blame if your pilots start returning to Moresby with jungle hanging off their wheels:E

To the younger pilots working there now don't believe a bloody word you read on an anonymous internet forum - go and ask those 10-12 guys I mentioned and see what they say - they're all good guys - but ya never know what sort of weirdos hang out on the WWW:ok:

[tinpis]

From one extreme to the other as far as pilot experience, was the MBA twotter crash P2- MBB (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19960709-0) at Mendi in 1996 .
It would have been hard to find a more PNG savvy pilot than Jim :(

[Torres]

At it's peak around 1980, Talair had 69 aircraft, operating 83,000 flight sectors in 44,000 flying hours per annum. The airline operated a scehduled airline network which included 140 separate airports, the free world's second largest number of scheduled airports (after British Airways). The engine shop in Goroka produced in excess of one overhauled piston engine per week (to an excellent standard!). It was one of the largest operators of Pratt & Whitney engines in the region, over 90 PT6, JT15 and PW120 series engines and with 23 Islanders, the world's largest fleet of the type.

At a meeting in Lae with then Minister for Transport Iambaki Okuk (Talair was grounded for "illegally" increasing airfares), Junior and myself (maybe around 1980 (?), Okuk accused Talair of causing over 50% of all aircraft accidents in PNG. I pointed out we operated over 60% of all PNG commercial aircraft and performed 76% of all hours flown in PNG. The grounding was lifted after two days as the country's internal travel ground to a halt.

MBA/APNG has probably almost filled the void previously occupied by Talair. I suspect the volume of air travel in PNG has probably increased very significantly from my time in PNG (1964 to 1985).

I don't and won't accept accidents "just happen" - accidents are not inevitable, they are avoidable. Each accident and incident must be fully investigated and lessons learned from the terrible loss of life that has occurred in the last 88 years.

That Sid O'Toole has to go to the media is an indictment on the atrocious and appalling aviation regulation management in PNG in recent years. I think Sid mentioned $/K4.1 million in funding? That is a mere pittance compared to the ill gotten gains of some in PNG politics.

[P51D]

Regrettably some of the posts on here do nothing for the cause. Chimbu et al don't bother responding to Ozangel, particularly to the 3rd para. You Old Hand Top Guns owe no explanation to these taunts and maybe if Ozangel had worked up there down the back of a C206 or a Twotter he/she would have a better appreciation of the climate and everyday flying in PNG.

[hoggsnortrupert]

A top bloke, And sorely missed>

As for CFIT! in bad weather under pressure some are lucky.

After nearly 30 yrs in the game, alot that I knew/got drunk with/Played hard with,have gone the same way, it has come as a shock when I just counted it up?

I and alot of others on here know of another chap,(Solies 94) turned the wrong way to circle and hold to allow a faster A/C to cross his track and continue its descent.

He flew into a mountain, that he knew was there.

To er is to be human, to live a life after a career in Aviation is to be Lucky.

The blokes that have gone before me "to hold my seat at the bar"! would want and expect me/us to learn from their mistakes.

Hence the investigative part, this needs to be sorted.

H/Snort.:ok:

[groper]

Anyway you slice it, it looks and sound like a classic case of a C.F.I.T.
....or maybe not. It could have been a combination of any number of events, including spatial disorientation. The accident investigators will hopefully figure it out and leave us with something to learn.

[Sharpie]

YEAR
PILOT
AIRCRAFT
LOCATION
FLT PHASE
1931 May Les Trist Junkers W34 VH-UNR Nr Wampit Gap Cru
1932 Dec F. Drayton DH60 Gypsy Moth -UMJ Wau T/o
1935 Sep C. Ferguson DH84 Dragon -URO Bitoi Gap Cru
1939 Aug W. Schaufhausen Fokker Universal -UJT Sek T/o
1940 Jan R. Doyle DH84 Dragon -URW Wau O/shoot
1941 Feb F. Buchanan DH66 Hercules -UJO Nr Wau Cru
1943 Nov W. G. Campbell Lockheed Lodestar -CAB Pt. Moresby Land.
1947 Jan D. Tapsell DH84 Dragon -AOS Mt. Kerigomna Cru
1947 Mar R. Peters Avro Anson -AKH Wampit Cru
1948 Apr S. Bowern Lockheed Hudson -ALA Markham River T/o
1948 Dec Father J Glover DH84 Dragon -AMO Mingende Land
1950 Jan H. Gibson-Lee Lockheed Hudson -BDN Lae Land
1951 Jul J. Spiers DH A Drover -EBQ Lae Cru
1951 Sep F. Barlogie DH84 Dragon -AXL Nr Karanga Cru
1951 Aug H. Hartwig Auster J5 -KAN Goroka Gap Cru
1951 Dec S. Peebles DH84 Dragon -URV Yaramunda Beat-up
1953 Mar Dr. J. McInerney Auster J5 -KSY Vanimo Harbour T/o
1955 Aug W. Passlow DH84 Dragon -AOT Togoba Cru
1957 Jun J. Gray DH82 Tigermoth - AQS Arona Gap Cru
1958 Jun A. Motterram Lockheed Hudson -AGG Lae Land
1958 Jul R. de Forest Norseman -GSA Mendi Cru
1960 Dec D. Gleeson Norseman -GSC Nr Kuli Gap Cru
1961 Mar G. Wallace Piaggio P166B -PAL Nr Kokoda Gap Cru
1961 Jun Father H. McGee Dornier DO27 - Mt. Gisauka Cru
1961 Oct S. Magano Cessna 170B -BVH Aiome Cru
1961 Dec B. Badger DHC3 Otter -SBS Nebilyer Gap Cru
1961 Dec S. Zuydam DHC3 Otter -SBS Nebilyer Gap Cru
1962 Oct G. Wicks Cessna 185 -GKD Nr Mt. Hagen T/o
1964 Sep R. Jaensch Dornier DO27 -EXA Tauta T/o
1965 Jan J. Gaffney Cessna 205 -GKG Mt. Helwig Cru
1965 Jan L. Wright Cessna 205 -GKG Mt. Helwig Cru
1965 Jun Father J. Wallachy Cessna 206 -DFW Bundi Gap Cru
1966 Aug M. Aldridge Cessna 336 -CMQ Nr Kagamuga Clb
1966 Mar R. Smith Cessna 172 -DGL Vunakanau Para.drop
1967 Jun J. Harveson Cessna 185 -MFG Nr Olsibip Cru
1967 Nov I. Oliver Beech B55 Baron -GKJ Goroka T/o
1967 Jun L. Zampese Dornier DO27 -SHB Yangoru T/o
1968 Feb W. Wallace Bell 47 -CSK Bundi Cru
1968 Jul A. Ignatieff Beech Musketeer - Mt. Hagen T/o
1968 Nov D. Binnie Bell 47 -FIQ Olsibip T/o
1968 Nov R. Komareck Cessna 206 -ATG Nr Imonda Cru
1969 Dec C. Randell Piper PA23 -CSB Wasu.Unknown Cru?
1970 Apr D. McKillop DHC6 Otter -TGR Nr Kainantu Cru
1970 May W. Venables Hiller 1100 -UHD Mt. Otto T/o
1970 May R. Cornett Piper PA 23 -COB Gurney T/O
1970 Jun W.Pacher Cessna 206 -UFV Aitape Land
1970 Aug W. Hutchinson Beech B55 Baron -ILG Nr Balimo Cru
1970 Aug J. Collett Piper PA22 -ROC Vitiaz Strait Cru
1970 Mar R. Smith Piper PA23 -SPM Mt. Victoria Cru
1970 Dec G. Dennis Cessna 206 -GKN Nr Porgera Cru
1972 Apr D Hunt Piper PA23 -SIL Nr Nadzab Cru
1972 Sep P. Arnold Shorts SC7 Skyvan -PNI Mt. Giluwe Cru
1973 Feb A. Kosowski Cessna 185 -STP Nr Mt Hagen Cru
1973 Apr L. Shields Cessna 207 -UBY Goroka T/o
1973 May G. Venville Cessna 206 -GKL Omkalai Land
1973 Dec R. B. Smith Cessna 206 -MKK Mt. Sarawaket Cru
1973 Dec R. J. Smith Cessna 206 -MKK Mt. Sarawaket Cru
1974 Feb G. Stockel Cessna 206 -KBO Nr Daulo Pass Cru
1974 Mar. B. Cheers Cessna 206 -UBM Ninjil Pass Cru
1974 Mar G. Hoskin Cessna 206 -EFO Lae Airport T/o
1974 Jul R. Dunhill Cessna 206 -AMS Garaina Clm
1974 Nov Father H. Hoff Cessna 206 -SIM Kimil Gap Cru
1974 Dec I. Rowles Cessna 185 -FLZ Sialum Cru
1975 Jun D. Lockyer Piper PA 23 -AVR Nr Rabaul Cru
1975 Nov R. Johnson Cessna 206 VHUCU Nr Koisipe River Cru
1976 Sep J. Ginder Piper PA 30 N80AS Rabaul Land
1976 Sep C. Bailey Cessna 206 -MFI Nr Kumbwareta Cru
1976 Dec Father P. Cullen Cessna 206 -IQA Kainteba Land
1977 Oct J. Fox Beech B55 Baron -GKP At sea nr Gurney Cru
1977 Dec J. Keane Cessna 206 -SEE Bundi Land
1978 Feb P. Giles DHC6 Otter -TGT Garaina Land
1978 Nov Father V. Cafarella Cessna 206 -PAX Nr Gembogl Cru
1978 Dec R. Gray Cessna 206 -SEL Nr Marawaka Cru
1979 Jan G. Walker Cessna 206 -TTB Nr Wau Cru
1979 May M. Hawkes Beech B55 Baron -GKS Nr Tari Gap Cru
1979 Jul J. Johnson Cessna 206 -MFC Nr Aitape Cru
1979 Nov P. Anderson BN2A -ATU Nr Kerema Cru
1979 Dec B. O’sullivan N22B Nomad -DNL Manari O’shoot
1980 May D. McLaren Cessna 206 -DSR Bimim Cru
1980 May M. Garlick Beech B55 Baron -HAB Nr Tari Gap Cru
1980 Jul R. Hoffman Beech B55 Baron -GKN Tari Gap Cru
1981 Apr C. Channell Cessna 402 -GKJ Nr Kuli Gap Cru
1981 May J. Miria N22 Nomad PNGDF Nr Kilifas Gap Cru
1981 May E. Skofi N22 Nomad PNGDF Nr Kilifas Gap Cru
1982 May D.Bayliss BN2A -HAC Nr Lake Kopiago Cru
1982 Aug J.Crowley Cessna 206 -FHY Nr Kikori Cru
1982 Sep G. Craig Cessna 206 -SEG Nth Doma Peaks Cru
1983 May Dr. J. Smythe Piper Lance -RHF False Gap Cru
1983 Jul R. Russell BN2 -FHP R Mouny Hagen Cru
1984 Jan R. Davie BN2 -ISH Nr Omkalai Cru
1984 Mar R. Bennett Piper Cherokee 235 -TEM Nr Tomba Gap Cru
1984 Sep A. .Parr BN2 -ISG Nr Tabubil Cru
1984 Dec C. Harvey-Hall Cessna 182 -WKD Nr Bulolo Clb
1985 Sep R. Millar BN2 -DNW False Gap Cru
1985 Sep P. Cahill BN2 -DNI Nr Kilifas Gap Cru
1985 Nov P. Summerfield Cessna 206 -MFE Nr Sangapi Cru
1986 Sep P. Beer BN2 -KAD Nr Kaintiba Cru
1986 Oct M. Massey Hughes 500 - MIC Nr Karimui Cru
1987 Feb P. Hunt Emb110 -RDM Hoskins App
1987 Jun P. Caisley BN2 -KAE Nr 20 Mile Gap Cru
1987 Jun K. Eather BN2 -KAE Nr 20 Mile Gap Cru
1987 Oct G. Onga Tai Cessna 402 -GKG Malekolon Ldg
1987 Dec A. Stevenson BN2A -COG Kanabea T/o
1988 Apr T. Stanton BN2A -CBE Bomai T/o
1988 Aug A. Cameron BN2A -ATZ Kanainje O/shoot
1989 Jun B. Wilson DHC6 Twin Otter -OTR Nr Dahomo Cru
1989 Jul R. Hopwood DHC6 Twin Otter - RDW Porgera East Gap Cru
1990 Jan G. Bouchard Cessna 182 -MCM Mebok T/o
1990 Jul R. Godden BN2A -DNJ Nr Mt. Oubine Cru
1990 Sep R. Peaker Cessna 206 -MFH Eliptiman T/o
1990 Nov G. Cox Cessna 206 -MAC Nr Tari Gap Cru
1991 Mar M. Keeley Hughes 369 -HNA Nr Mt. Guliwe Cru
1991 Oct A. Finhelly IA350 -PAB Nr Kiam Village Cru
1992 Mar J. Gray Hughes 500 -PAU Nr Tari T/o
1992 Apr J. Cabrera EMB110 -RDS Daulo Pass Cru
1992 Jun D. Hannah Cessna 185 -AWM Nr Munumu Cru
1992 Nov P. Gill Cessna 180 -UCF Nr Koisipe Cru
1992 Dec R. Goddard BN2A -MBE Nr Alotau Cru
1993 Feb R. Rowe Cessna 185 -ROW Nr Gumine Cru
1993 Oct D. Wirth BN2A -HBE Nr Bank Cru
1993 Oct P. Brown BN2A -HBE Nr Bank Cru
1994 Mar D. Jessop Bell 206B - HBA Nr Buka Des
1994 Apr Father G. Panizzo Cessna 206 - CMV Nr Sumumini Cru
1994 Nov A. McDonald BN2A - SWC Nr Selbang Des
1994 Dec R. Hoey DHC6 Twin Otter - MFS Nr Selbang Des
1994 Jul D. Wilson Cessna 206 - NTB Nr Kandrian Cru
1995 Apr P. Messervy Piper PA28 - SPE Woitape Des
1995 Jul J. Rydstrom DHC4A Caribou -VTC Nr Kiunga Cru
1995 Jul E. Terry DHC6 Twin Otter - MBI Gurney T/o
1995 Jul J. Dima BN2A -TNT Karimui Clb
1995 Dec P. Goldsworthy BN2A -NAM Begesin Land
1996 Jul J. Miller DHC6 Twin Otter -MBB Nr Mendi Des
1996 Dec N. Lee Piper PA31 -NGM Porgera Land
1997 T. Peninsa DHC6 Twin Otter Nr Goroka Des
1999 J. Nemai BN2A Nr Hoskins Clb
1999 M. Gueder Hughes 500 Mt. Wilhelm Clb
1999 A. Andrews EMB110 Nr Goroka Cru
2000 Jun M. Lee Cessna 402 -SAV Nr Kerema Des
2002 May L. Anderson Fletcher FU24 -SDG Nr Kaw Kaw Gap Cru
2002 Dec E. Elit BN2A -CBB Guhu Strip T/o
2003 May J. Twitt AS315 -PHQ Into water Nr Lae Cru
2004 Jul P. Wiseman DHC6 -MBA Near Onoge Cru
2004 Jul Rachael Kaltia DHC6 -MBA Near Onoge Cru
2004 Dec Ian Leslie Cessna 185 P2-IDL Near Chimbu Cru
2005 Feb R. West DHC6 Near Tububil Crz
2005 Feb C. Hansen DHC6 Near Tububil Crz
2006 Mar23 P.Fasnacht C206 P2-MFP Near Tari Crz?
2006 Apr 20 ???? Hlift C06 near ????
2007 Mar P. Kundin EMB110 P2-ALU Near Kandrian f/Ldg
2007 F.Merdock EMB110 P2-ALU Near Kandrian f/Ldg

2009 Au 11 Ms J Moala DHC6 P2- Nr Kokoda
2009 Au 11 R. Souka DHC6 P2- Nr Kokoda
Nearly all of these accidents occurred to unpressurised aircraft flown by a single pilot with a high percentage during the cruise phase of flight without transmitting a distress call. This could indicate most of these aircraft flew straight into a hill, possibly in inclement weather.

[Sharpie]

There are some errors in the list that I tried to limit to commercial civil aircraft fatal accidents, excluding RAAF Kudgeru prang. Since leaving PNG, I have had some difficulty in keeping abreast with aircraft rego's etc (other info from post courier and friends) I think that the boy(s) in accident investigation are too busy to provide much detail.

I hope that the list may form a basis for futher research, so go for it!

Happy safe flying.:ok:

[ReverseFlight]

I am fortunate enough to have received helicopter mountain training from a seasoned instructor with high time experience of flying in PNG and a couple of things spring to mind : (1) Never assume it is clear on the other side of a ridge and (2) Never assume you have enough power to carry you over it. Must be easier said than done.

[Captain Nomad]

Sharpie, that is a sobering and comprehensive list...! You've done very well to keep tabs on all that.

There was one recent one that I noticed missing. Mr P.Fasnacht in a C206 (not sure of the rego - MAF) I think it was March/April 2006 at Tari. Going to his funeral in Hagan was part of my introduction to flying in PNG...

[Capt.Grumpy]

Very sobering list. Two of my best mates are on it and they died almost exactly12 months apart. I still get a tear in my eye when I think of them :sad:

[AQIS Boigu]

Sharpie,

thanks for posting that - agreed...Pierre Fassnacht is missing on that list...(another prang where no authority examined the engine/wreckage)

Does anyone know if anyone has kept the "roll of honour" going on the right hand side of the bar at the Aeroclub???

[Diatryma]

Pierre Fasnacht was P2-MFP on 23/03/06

Also Hevi-Lift Bell 206 P2-HCE on 20/04/06.

:(

[poteroo]

It's a long list. And that's only the fatals. What about the wrecked and written off's without fatalities - it must go for several pages!

Like many others on this thread, I knew and flew with many of these pilots. I knew the pilots of GKG, ATF,CSB and SPM during the period 65-70.

When I was a didiman based in the Madang District, I spent time in Bogia, Kar Kar, Aiome and Simbai. On a walk from Aiome up to Simbai in 62, we passed the wreckage of the Cessna 170, (BVH) accident from Oct 1961. It is down in the creekbank pitpit at a location known as Warabung - not Aiome as shown, as it's probably closer to Simbai. It's up a blind valley - past the saddle where you change over into the lower Simbai valley.

Sobering reflections.

[Obie]

"After nearly 30 yrs in the game, alot that I knew/got drunk with/Played hard with,have gone the same way, it has come as a shock when I just counted it up?

I and alot of others on here know of another chap,(Solies 94) turned the wrong way to circle and hold to allow a faster A/C to cross his track and continue its descent.

He flew into a mountain, that he knew was there.

To er is to be human, to live a life after a career in Aviation is to be Lucky."


I think Hoggsy might have regressed in time back to 1948!

Someone should tell him todays date!

[groper]

disorientation is part of it, but that usually happens if you're IMC isnt it?
Usually, but not always. I've seen pilots get seriously disoriented 'clear of cloud' but without a visual horizon - a situation that can arise during flying ops in PNG.

The only reason recovery was possible on these occasions was that there was plenty of space between their position and the terrain....and it was a training/teaching event in controlled conditions.

[Diatryma]

P2-MCD had a go at the Kokoda gap earlier that day could'nt get in, then continued to Efogi landed there while they were on the ground Efogi P2-MCB started their descend thru the kokoda gap.MCD tried the kokoda gap again still couldnt get thru so they did the DME arrival using the Girua NDB thats how they got in to the kokoda I reckon to their surprise MCB was not on the ground.


P2-KST left POM at 10.40 (13 mins before P2-MCB), landed sfaely at Kokoda, and left again for POM at 11.12.

P2-MCB started descent thru Kokoda Gap at 11.11.

My info is that P2-MCD landed safely at Kokoda at 11.35.

Just shows you how quickly the weather changes up there!

Di :sad:

[Wiley]

(1) Never assume it is clear on the other side of a ridgeI was taught the same rule with slightly different phrasing: "Never press on in poor weather in the Highlands unless you can see the ridge after the ridge immediately ahead of you."

[Bedder believeit]

I grew up in TPNG and the Gray's were friends of my parents (1957) I was staying with them in Goroka when the Tiger moth accident happened. I was working for TAA in Goroka in 1967 and was at the "ples-balus" when the TALAIR baron flown by Oliver went almost vertical on takeoff before tail sliding into the coffe plantation next to the strip.

[chimbu warrior]

Thank you Sharpie for a most comprehensive, and sobering, list.

A couple of edits........

1978 Nov Father V. Cafarella Cessna 206 -PAX Nr Gembogl Cru

Although he was flying for the Catholic Mission, Vince was not a priest; just a bloke who loved PNG and loved flying. his wife perished with him.

1982 Sep G. Craig Cessna 206 -SEG Nth Doma Peaks Cru

In fact Gavin Craig survived, although one of his passengers perished during the night they spent on the Doma Peaks. the passenger was uninjured, and possibly died of old age.

Fly safe.

[AQIS Boigu]

SIL did a thorough investigation on the engine of MFP at their facility and their findings were confirmed when the results of the recovered EDM System came back from the US. Of course this should have been instigated by the PNG CAA but wasn't.


And what was the outcome??? I knew Pierre from around the traps and wouldnt mind knowing what happend...

[Chimbu chuckles]

1988 Apr T. Stanton BN2A -CBE Bomai T/o

Another edit for you Pete - Terry was landing - couldn't quite line up on the runway and an engine failed on the Go around. He was a VERY funny guy - had those Marty Feldman bug out eyes and a sense of humor that just broke you up.

There are well over 30 pilots on that list (+ 1 FA not on the list) that I knew well. Also think of the unrecorded multiple 100s CFIT/weather related accidents that occurred during wartime operations - just took off and were never seen again and no one went looking - many in bombers with large crew compliments. Apparently the maps were inaccurate and they thought the highest terrain was 10000' - from 10500' up in PNG is just strewn with wartime aircraft. There were still nearly 500 unaccounted for in the 90s.

[High 6]

Thanks Sharpie, for the chance to remember lost friends. A lot of good buddies on that list. Brought back memories of a time when we were all so carefree, drank heaps of SP and lived life to the fullest. It's gonna be a crowded bar when we all get together again. :ok:

[Tee Emm]

Thanks Sharpie, for the chance to remember lost friends

I'll drink to that. Thanks Sharpie. I knew former RAF Wing Commander Harold Gibson-Lee who was involved in the Lockheed Hudson crash at Lae in 1950. He lost an engine soon after take off and being overloaded was unable to hold altitude and went in. Although badly burned he survived only to die after being informed of the fate of his passengers. He had flown Vickers Wellesley long range single engine light bombers in the RAF and after the war joined the Sydney Morning Herald Flying Services to fly Hudsons on newspaper deliveries in NSW.

[60 & below]

A friend of mine passed away in 1990,
Is there a web site that includes the Lat/Long of crash sites in PNG?

[Brian Abraham]

1961 Mar G. Wallace Piaggio P166B -PAL Nr Kokoda Gap

Any of you PNG hands know if the wreckage was ever found? Was a good friend to this then teenager.

[tinpis]

Thanks Sharpie.
Thats the first list I've ever seen, and quite probably the only time one has been published, certainly on a website?

[hoggsnortrupert]

Thanks Sharpie: Well done.

Sobering! indeed it is:

Heres to becoming an old codger!

Chuckles, you say around 500 wrecks! above the 10000ft level? dont mean to drag the thread "off track", but any info to be had from where? very interested.

Rgds.
H/Snort:ok:

[tinpis]

Start here Rupert

Pacific Wrecks - Papua New Guinea National Museum (PNG War Museum) (http://www.pacificwrecks.com/restore/png/museum.html)

[Torres]

Sharpie.

1974 Feb G. Stockel Cessna 206 -KBO Nr Daulo Pass Cru

Registration correction - Garth was flying VH-KRO, not KBO, Chimbu - Goroka.

I was very fortunate not to be on that aircraft.

[Sharpie]

I tend to agree about wartime spot heights. Many years in the ols SPAC clubhouse was a wartime chart covering Pom - Oro Bay.

One intersting thing on the chart was the incorrect spot heights along the owen stanley's.

One in particular was Mt Kenevi on the direct track to Gurua, Buna and Gona.
Spot Height of 9,300 ft. The actual height was around 10,500 ft.

On a good day flying around 10.5 you could spot various aircraft types speared into the mountain below 10.5. A number of others were spotted during the search for Patair P166b. Mt Wilhelm also had a few scattered around the upper levels.

A logbook of missing aircraft that was kept in the old Jackson's Control Tower SAR room, was a sobering tome to peruse. There was way over 600 allied aircraft still missing, of which a large number would have of course perished due to enemy action, while many were cfit or water.

fly safe.

[Wiley]

George Odgers wrote the two volume Official History of the RAAF in WW2. What I recall was the sobering number of times he mentions words to the effect that the crew were seen to be alive in their life raft after ditching in PNG waters... and never seen again.

In those days, SAR wasn't what it is today.

[Alistair]

Another for the list....NCA's first fatalities in 15+ years operating to some of the more interesting strips in PNG.. ASN Aircraft accident IRMA/Britten-Norman BN-2A-20 Islander P2-ISA Bapi Airport (BPD) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20000429-0)

29/4/00 Islander P2-ISA at Bapi. Crashed on takeoff killing the pilot (unfortunately I don't have his name as I had left PNG and we never met) and 3 passengers. Even the relatively easy strips can bite :(

[Pinky the pilot]

Thanks Sharpie.

Several good friends on that list.

[Metro man]

The number of Islander accidents is very disturbing to me as I have many hours on type. Obviously BN2s were a work horse and would have done much of the flying, particularly marginal strips.

Safer in a DHC8 well above MSA with an IFR approach into a decent airport.:(

[Fantome]

That ASN list does not show the civil Caribou that was unsuccessfully dead sticked on a river killing the two on board. The F/O was a woman from Mackay,, Lavers. Have an idea the year was round 1990, give or take.



This it?
1995 Jul J. Rydstrom DHC4A Caribou -VTC Nr Kiunga Cru

TW

[tinpis]

1970 Dec G. Dennis Cessna 206 -GKN Nr Porgera Cru
Gavin and I shared a Talair donga in Hagen


1972 Sep P. Arnold Shorts SC7 Skyvan -PNI Mt. Giluwe Cru

Who could forget "The Grouper" and the many convivial ales?

1974 Feb G. Stockel Cessna 206 -KBO Nr Daulo Pass Cru


Nearly got our Torres :ooh:
Ghost story about Garth regarding staff (orli) seeing a big red haired Talair pilot in TAL POM office? :eek:


1973 Dec R. B. Smith Cessna 206 -MKK Mt. Sarawaket Cru
1973 Dec R. J. Smith Cessna 206 -MKK Mt. Sarawaket Cru

Young Rob proudly showed me his new camera before taking off for what was his last flight. The other Rob was going on famil flight with him
They never found the camera.

[tpad]

Hi Tinpis

Please check your PM's

tpad

[tinpis]

tpad
Lukim PM bilong yu yet

TeePee

[Spotlight]

Fantome

Its there alright. Jack Rydstrom. Desperate circumstances from what I remember.

Pete Caisley. I remember like it was yesterday.

[ZEEBEE]

1961 Mar G. Wallace Piaggio P166B -PAL Nr Kokoda Gap

Any of you PNG hands know if the wreckage was ever found? Was a good friend to this then teenager.

Brian

I believe Geoff was found about eight months later, well after the search was abandoned. Six or seven other aircraft found during the search.

Heard that he had been thrown clear of the wreckage but fatally injured.

Not sure where the source came from as it was some time ago. I seem to remember it was from another pilot who also flew for Ansett mandated Airlines.

[tinpis]

Bill thought he might die here - Papua New Guinea Aviation (http://www.pngair.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/869/size/big/cat/)

Old hands remember that stuff forming around you and that hole gettin, smaller and smaller.......

[groper]

its hard to disorientate when you have those massive rocks sticking out like a saw thumb on the horizon
As A380-800 Driver points out, it is not hard but the rocks are. Disorentation is not restricted to spatial disorientation in IMC. I've seen many a good pilot disoriented (suffering from illusions) 'in the clear' but without a visual horizon....even though they thought they had one.

PNG and Irian Jaya seem to be the worst places I've witnessed it happening.

[Capt Fathom]

Caribou that was unsuccessfully dead sticked on a river killing the two on board. The F/O was a woman from Mackay,, Lavers

There were 3 onboard.

Dianne Laver was not part of the crew. Just along for the ride! And yes she did come from Mackay. The daughter of Rex Laver who had a life long association with aviation.

She was a pilot herself, and was the partner of the Caribou Captain. :(

[Wiley]

A logbook of missing aircraft that was kept in the old Jackson's Control Tower SAR room, was a sobering tome to peruse. There was way over 600 allied aircraft still missing, of which a large number would have of course perished due to enemy action, while many were cfit or water.Sharpie, during the war in PNG, Allied casualties due to sickness and tropical diseases versus enemy action were on the a ratio of 10:1, i.e., ten soldiers were 'lost' to disease for every one lost to enemy action.

I can't recall where I read this, but I understand that wartime Allied aircraft losses due to weather, mechanical failure etc versus enemy action in the PNG area were at about the same ratio. This probably wasn't the case in the first 12 months, when the Japanese were in the ascendency, but after that, I can well believe those figures.

[blackhand]

In this case, both the Captain and FO had in excess of 4 years and 2,000 hours flying in PNG on Twin Otter aircraft. She would have been formally checked into Kokoda by a Check Captain. In that time (as a guess) they would have both flown the route at least 50-100 times


Word is that the PIC had been checked only recently into Kokoda. Previously been flying LH seat into Popendetta. Had been on the route less than two weeks.

Maybe it is a case of not knowing when to be scared.

[olderairhead]

Many years ago when I arrived in Lae for my first job, I was given some words of wisdom that initially did not mean much but as time went by became more and more pertinent.

Those words of wisdom; Fly to your own limitations.

When I first heard them it did not really mean anything until one day I was following another aircraft into Pindiu. The weather was average and the other pilot got in. I thought well if he can, so can I. Wrong!

The other pilot had 3 years more experience operating out of Lae than I had. Sure I had been going to Pindiu for 3 months but this guys knew that valley like the back of his hand.

What I did scared me sh!tless, but taught me a valuable lesson. Fly to your limitations, not that of those with much more experience. If you do, you live to fly another day. Push on because he could do it and maybe you won't.

I may be wrong but the latest accident seems to match the scenario I have painted. Time will tell to see if I am correct.

[teresa green]

This has brought back terrible memories for me. TAA in their wisdom??? checked me out as a check and training Captain at the grand ol age of 27 and the very first pilot I checked out, nine days later flew into a mountain in the same valley. The TAA community was shocked, I needless to say was gutted. He had everything going for him, intelligent, calm, interested, a good pilot, father of two, happy, and to make matters worse on board he had nine catholic nuns mainly from local regions. It was in the seventies, his last name was Mckillop and it was a Twotter. I have spent countless hours going over everything, how he reacted, his behaviour, his ability to fly the aircraft, his personna, there was no reason to fail this bloke and yet he and his pax died. Even now in quiet moments I go over it again, (especially now). Everything Chimbo posts here is correct, and remember we were wallowing around in DC3's as well, and a taildragger aint much fun in some of those strips, but like most pilots who flew in PNG I would not swap it for anything, but will take the death of that pilot and his passengers to my grave.

[OzExpat]

I think that someone asked for a photo of the strip. This is the best that I can do on short notice.

http://www.fototime.com/DE57346D69CFD74/standard.jpg

As Chuck and others have said, in it's heyday, it was a DC3 strip but, as you can see, there's not a lot of opportunity to take photos on approach. And, as it's a one-way strip, not a lot to see on the way out either. Land 17, take-off 35.

This photo was taken some MANY years ago but, even then, the strip had progressively fallen into disrepair, with a large unusable section prior to the permanently displaced THR. Average elevation 1269 feet, length (excluding unusable section) 855 metres, average slope 2.2% (1.26 degrees). Surface is grassed black silt which is quite solid in dry conditions, but a tad slippery when wet.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Teresa:
but will take the death of that pilot and his passengers to my grave.

I "understand", as do alot of others:

That said, and please dont think me as being heartless, I am moved by your words, and thoughts.

Let it go, let it go, let it go, dont let your mind visit this place:

H/Snort.:ok:

[blackhand]

H/Snort advised

Let it go, let it go, let it go, dont let your mind visit this place

It is tough when someone dies on our watch, those of us that have been there empathise with you Teresa,
And somehow we go on - that little bit more careful. Keeping the ghosts off the verandah late at nite is the hardest bit.

[coolchange666]

I would guess a few of us have been in Teresa's position. I checked a guy into the jungle strips out of moresby where he pranged an islander a couple months later.. no-one died but a pax lost a limb. A guy I knew well.. AY checked a guy out into the Telefomin/Oksapmin area where trainee crashed his 206 and died on the very next trip there. He was very messed up about that and eventually became a figure of note within the PNG accident investigation scene.. working out his karma?.. who knows.

BTW Sharpie for your amazing list the Kokoda crash a/c reg is P2-MCB.

[sundaun]

This aircraft has not been found. Departed with a load of peanuts for POM,

[Dog One]

Remember young McKillop when he flew the Queenair for TAA out of HBA, prior to going to PNG

[FlexibleResponse]

Teresa Green,

I know where you are coming from.

However, you can provide training to candidate, you can give him the benefit of your experience, but you can't give him your experience. When a pilot trainee has met the training requirements of the job in hand, he is then on his own and is licenced to kill both himself and his passengers.

That unfortunately is his affair, and in no way, is it any of your business.

Reflect on the hugely successful careers of the many other pilots you have trained if you must...we only get one shot at this thing called life.

Living is a dangerous occupation that inevitably ends up in death...so we must concentrate on enjoying what we can before the final curtain call!

[teresa green]

Thanks for listening fellas. I guess when you are check and training especially in areas like PNG you get to know the bloke quite well, you have a few beers, get to know what makes them tick, and listen to them talk about themselves and their hopes for themselves and their families, and more often than not get to like the bloke. It was a very tightknit community, TAA in PNG, and we would socialize as well as fly together, so when we lost a pilot and a aircraft it was very distressing to say the least. Obviously I had to go to his funeral, and face his young wife, and then spent endless hours with Australian safety crash investigators, and there was not really a satisfactory outcome, not to me anyway. The Twotter has flown countless hours up there, and has given great service, I certainly prefered it to the DC3, which was "heavy" to fly, in that enviroment, but of course acknowledge it is one of the greatest aircraft ever built. Anyway,anyone who is given the oportunity to fly in PNG take it with both hands, no sim, no training in this country, will give you a experience like it, and your skills will be appreciated by any airline in the world...

[EBCAU]

I was interested to read the list of accidents over the years provided by Sharpie and remember some of those that were lost - and it is not a complete list.
In my time in PNG I have kept a log of pilots that have worked for a particular company that I have had a long association with. Only six weeks ago I updated the list and moved it to a spreadsheet where it's easy to move things around. Because of this I selected those that I knew were no longer with us (in the wider sense) and posted them in their own column. I suddenly realized there were quite a few. I divided their number by the total list and was staggered at the ratio of those that didn't make it.
Not all, but most, died in PNG in the same line of work. I didn't realize that what we are doing now appeared to be as dangerous as the early days of agricultural flying.
I made a comment about my findings as a few other pilots came into the room. A young, relatively inexperienced, pilot looked at me as if I was odd and said "Why would you bother to mention such a morbid thing." My reply was "Perhaps so someone like you is reminded of the fact that this job is dangerous and might be safer because of it." It didn't seem to make a difference to his outlook though. Pity.
Perhaps I shouldn't bother with such things but perhaps that's also why I have made it to the twilight of my career, with PNG being the place I have done most of my flying. Call me odd but I'm still alive in PNG.

[see_my_slots]

As morbid as it seems, I appreciate the turn this thread has taken. At least we are no longer placing blame and comparing stories of how we would have done it better.

When it comes down to it, none of us was involved in the decision-making process or even sitting at the pointy end of that flight so therefore, really none of us has any right to speculate.

As a mark of respect, those who are offering an opinion from having been-there-done-that may help us understand the why's and what's of flying in PNG and we should take it on board. Other than that, if you are not offering a constructive point-of-view and just posting for the sake of trying to sound important think about how you would like it if it was you being discussed post-mortem.

[Fantome]

Bill thought he might die here - Papua New Guinea Aviation (http://www.pngair.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/869/size/big/cat/)


http://www.pngair.com/photopost/data/547/thumbs/20_SBG.JPG (http://www.pngair.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/868/size/big)

P2-SBG. Now with Qantas Founders, Longreach, back as VH-EAP, as she was with QF, 1947-1961.

[Brian Abraham]

sundaun, many thanks for your PM re the Piaggio. The story doing the rounds at the time among the group, where he worked prior to PNG, was that he had an engine fire which burnt through the bearers, allowing the engine to drop out. Reportedly radioed such information before disappearing. CFIT sounds much more probable, given the lack of substantive detail.

[Sharpie]

I arrived at Patair a few yeasrs after the disappearance and never heard any mention of an engine fire.

I'll chase up with some of the crew around at the time to see what comments we may get.

One's I heard over the early years were: Oxy failure, continued on until out of fuel over the Papuan Gulf: flew into trees in wx.

As the Pig was carrying a load of peanuts, searchers for days looked for gathering of white parrots.

I liked flying the Pig though the engines needed to be handled with care and did not like overboosting. Patair experienced 1 failure in all their years of operating the aircraft but other operators of Pigs and Queenairs had quite a few.

[rob.1201]

site of the crash - a pencil mark in the yellow highlit area ....

Plane crash in PNG - Cairns Photo Galleries | cairns.com.au (http://tools.cairns.com.au/photo_gallery/photo_gallery_popup.php?category_id=6875&offset=0)

[Chimbu chuckles]

TG I have been pondering your post - I can understand your anguish - two guys I trained initially subsequently were killed but a year + after I last flew with them - I was able to rationalize it and it has never really bothered me - it was sad but so were the other 35 guys I knew that died.

I honestly feel your experience falls into the 'you can't put an old head on young shoulders' category - There is just no way you can sit in the RHS long enough to guarantee anything. I am certain that your criteria for setting someone loose was the same as mine which was the same as ALL my peers who trained in PNG - would I be happy with my family sat behind him?

Yes? Then off you go. No? Then you're on a plane south - I only made that recommendation twice in all my time training in PNG GA - on both occasions I was ignored and by some minor miracle neither died - one was subsequently sacked ( cause he was a hamfisted moron) and went south, the other got what he wanted from PNG and ended up in VB.

Its like when I taught my daughter to drive - I started when she was 15 (we were living in an Asian country where you could do that) and gave her 18 months worth of ICUS - day/night/rain/shine/peak hour or no - and then I set her loose. She's a good driver and has never had a bingle - she's now 20 and living in Oz - but it was still a deep breath and 'ok, your on your own' moment. To her credit she tolerated the experience and never once questioned me about my training regime.

But you can't spend 18 months doing ICUS in a Twotter.

I don't think you should torture yourself another minute over it - but I know that nothing I say will stop you wondering - the mere fact that it has played on your mind for 40 years suggests to me you were a good and decent trainer:ok:

[frigatebird]

Chuck, the thing these days that helps the new ones (though they don't always appreciate it, they want to progress faster), in say a Twotter, is the two pilot crew, F/O apprenticeship. In the single pilot days, if you had a problem with something going unserviceable, and weather, and schedule, and all, you were it and you learnt to handle it for the first time on the job as you went, after you were turned loose. Had a dual generator failure in a Twotter once, and it was no drama having the F/O fly the aircraft around the buildups staying visual on the hour back while I, with his checking, (and my checking of how he was going) tried to sort out the rest. First time it had happened to me, but for him the next time wont be his first time. It takes a little time to get exposure, and to allow things to happen to you. 12 or 18 months in the right seat before a command, of even a simple aircraft like a Twotter, being in on the problem solving that happens day to day is a safer way than being thrown in the deep end after a checkout (no matter how thorough.) New captains with experienced F/O's, and experienced captains with new F/O's, is still SO sensible.. New Islander or Baron captains should have done some time in multi crew before being given their single pilot slot, but it didn't always happen that way.

[frigatebird]

Just for information regarding the dual generator failure. We had been in some heavy rain, and water got in under an unsealed plate on the roof and shorted out some pins in a canon plug.

[Chimbu chuckles]

What you say makes sense - but I still LOVED flying the Twotter and Bandit single pilot - at least twice as much fun:ok:

[frigatebird]

Sure, and I used to prefer it that way too..