Red Arrows missing leader?

[slippedthebonds]

I read in JT Kingsley's book that the reason Ray Hanna did a 4th year as Red Arrows leader in 1969 was because the nominated leader of that year lost the trust of his pilots and Ray came back when he resigned.

If this is true this isn't spoken about much - I can imagine why, but can anyone shed any light on this, since it seems to have disappeared from Red's history?

Thanks

[27mm]

This may refer to a former Hunter QFI from Valley, who was posted in to lead the Reds. Allegedly his tenure was short-lived, but it certainly did not harm his career, as he went on to command a Harrier squadron during the Falklands War and topped out as CAS.......

[PPRuNe Pop]

The red that is being referred to retired soon after the 'incident' and had a 'shoot' in W.Sussex. Trout, pheasant and such.

Never was the CAS though. A very likeable guy.

[bean]

1969 | 1163 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1969/1969%20-%201163.html?search=red) arrows

[Wander00]

Bean

Can you please chek the link - web site says "no path"

Cheers

[rightbank]

Link works ok for me.

[slippedthebonds]

Thanks folks, this fills a gap. As syncro lead, Kingsley says he got some of the blame for this change out through being too forthright at debriefs but says it had been agreed only 2 members would offer such feedback quite early on. I guess lessons have been learnt these days since all fly-on-the-wall stuff seems to show contructive feedback from all the pilots.

Continuing this theme, anyone know if Ray Hanna ever penned an autobiog or has anyone biog'd him? Or are there any other other books by any of the Arrows from the Gnat years (or later years)? I've just read Tony Cunnane's book from his time as Red Arrows PR Manager, but interested in more insight from pre-1980 years.

Interstingly I see the John Noakes Red Arrows "Go With Noakes" is viewable on BBC's i-Player now.

[Flying Lawyer]

Missing Leader?

There's confusion here between two different people and two unconnected events.

In 1969, Ray Hanna was recalled from a desk job to lead the Red Arrows for a fourth year in the circumstances described in the originating post. He had been a member of the team in the first year (1965) under the leadership of Sqn Ldr Lee Jones and then Leader for three years (1966-68).
As far as I'm aware, the name of the replaced Leader does not appear in the list of Leaders in any official history of the Arrows. (I'd prefer not to post the name here.)

A few years later and completely unconnected with the above, a different pilot left after a relatively short time and (as 27mm says) continued his distinguished career and ultimately became CAS. He told me a few years ago that he voluntarily resigned because he recognised he wasn't cut out for the precision formation flying required. I have no reason to doubt what he said.
Similarly, I have not seen his name listed as a former member of the team in any official record. Policy? Or because he left the team before the display season started? (I don't know and didn't think of asking him.)


Anyone know if Ray Hanna ever penned an autobiog or has anyone biog'd him?
Neither, unfortunately.
The fullest account of his life so far as I'm aware is in posts #228-230 of this thread: http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/200715-sqd-ldr-ray-hanna-afc.html
If you find a fuller account, please post details. I'd be very interested to read it.
NB: The entire thread is well worth reading. There are some very interesting anecdotes/tributes from people who knew him at various stages of his life.
See also:
Squadron Leader Ray Hanna | Times Online Obituary (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article756213.ece)
Squadron Leader Ray Hanna - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1504724/Squadron-Leader-Ray-Hanna.html)

Are there any other other books by any of the Arrows from the Gnat years (or later years)?
I recommend '25 Years of the Red Arrows' by Ray Hanna, Tim Miller and Arthur Gibson.
Sqn Ldr Miller was Leader 1988-1990. The late Arthur Gibson, who sadly died in 1992, was an outstanding aviation photographer who had a close association with the Red Arrows for over three decades (and an equally long friendship with Ray Hanna) so the book has excellent pictures.
It was published in 1990 but is still available from aviation booksellers and on the internet.


Tudor Owen

.

[Fantome]

STRAIGHT and LEVEL

FLIGHT International, 26 June 1969

• I suspect that there may be one or
two very downcast chaps in the Red
Arrows, following the Air Staff's "back-to-
school" order.

All I can say is that to fail to achieve
perfection in their business is still to have
done better than most men in most walks
of life.


• At the height of the Paris Saloon I
needed solitude and rest. Where to go?
To the Soviet space pavilion, naturally.
They wouldn't want to sell me anything,
and I wouldn't have to speak to anyone.
But conscientious chap that I am
(noted—Ed) I couldn't help asking a
Russian official standing near the replica
of Venus 4 about the difficulties they
apparently had as the craft swept
through the Venusian atmosphere.
He turned to a colleague and for fully
five minutes they argued heatedly in
Russian. Finally he turned to me and
asked: "What do you mean, difficulty?"

• Last week's leader said that the aerobatics
by Bob Hoover at Paris "conceivably
helped to sell the Aero Commander."
But not that particular one -

HOLIDAY PLANE
LANDS ON ITS
UNDERCARRIAGE :
From "The Daily Telegraph,"


Are you all right?—No 71 Fairey Flycatcher, arriving on HMS "Courageous" in September
1930. The pilot, a flight lieutenant, was picked up unhurt by the attendant destroyer—not, as
it happened, by those two incredibly quick-off-the-mark deck-hands

EDWARDS suggests a "Second Force"
private airline to compete with
BOAC and BEA. It would be a
strong combination of merged independents.
Beware phoney mergers. If you say to
the independents "merge and you can
have some corporation goodies" you
might get a merger like Airco.
Remember Airco? In 1958 the Government
said to the aircraft industry
"merge and you can have BEA's jet
order." So de Havilland set up Airco,
a loose consortium of independent companies,
including Hunting and Fairey, to
build the D.H.121 Trident. It lasted
about five minutes after the order was
placed.
"Merge first, routes after" puts the
cart before the horse. Award the goodies
first—to the independent which puts up
the best case, and which is prepared to
publish its complete financial situation
instead of quoting funny profits—and
your mergers will follow. The only real
mergers are take-overs.

• I wouldn't call anyone a Second
Force airline. It's a bad name for a
number of reasons and I hope it doesn't
catch on.
The airline concerned would be a
Third Force anyway. But the name
would stand for yet another class of
privilege in the airline industry-—the
basic trouble with which has always
been its division into have-nots and
have-lots, the former having the poorer
safety record and three bankruptcies a
day after meals.
A so-called Second Force (which
anyway sounds like a Second XI or
a Second String) would create yet a new
sector of independent have-nots and
have-lots.
It could be very good for the committees
industry.

• The boss of a British aviation firm
which launched a private-venture project
was recently telephoned by a very cross
neddy. How dared they do a p-v without
asking the Ministry's permission?

• If God had meant us to fly He would
have given us tickets.

Roger Bacon

Come back RB.

[27mm]

Flying Lawyer,

Many thanks for the correction on the erstwhile CAS, who withdrew himself from the team. I remember him as the solo Hunter display pilot at Valley in '73 - probably the best solo aeros I've seen. :ok:

[Chris Royle]

I have a Balfour book , published by Photo Precision Ltd (around 1974, as that's when I was given it as a Christmas present) entitled simply "Red Arrows" by Ray Hanna, photographs by Arthur Gibson.
All Gnats. Not a Hawk in sight.....

[BOAC]

Chris - that book was updated in 1979 to include the whole history of the Gnat. I am fortunate to have both, and the later one has the '79 team, Ray and Arthur's signatures. A treasure indeed. Mrs B remembers an 'exciting' photo trip with Arthur a few decades back:eek:

[stevew62]

Guys, I have an E-mail from an Ex-Linton-GIN pilot where he wrote

"Were you aware that your father very nearly joined the Red Arrows. In May 1969 the Red Arrows were having a lot of problems, their new leader, who had never been on the team had lost the confidence of 4 of the team and a decision had to be taken - fire the leader or replace the 4 malcontents. Your Dad and I were asked if we would be prepared to go to the Arrows at very short notice, unfortunately a week later the powers that be fired the leader and we were not required. Incidentally, the ex leader, ( name removed) , went on to command the Harrier Force in the Falklands and became Chief of the Air Staff."

This appears to be the pilot 27mm is reffering to & Flying Lawyer says was never leader. This pilot is NOT the leader mentioned the link provided by Bean.

Is it possible there were there 3 leaders in 1969 ? or is time playing tricks on 40 year old memories ?

My father died some 20 years ago so I can't ask him.

[JW411]

"How does this piece fit in the puzzle?"

It is not a puzzle - it happened and quite a lot of us know the answer.

However, I very much doubt if anyone is prepared to come up and post the answer on Pprune. I certainly would not dream of so doing.

It simply does not matter.

[BOAC]

It simply does not matter. - may I fully endorse that? There is NO 'disgrace' in not going on to lead the team having been asked to. It is an enormous challenge and requires a special ability which sometimes even the best pilots will not have - and they of course would readily recognise that themselves and be aware of the way the training work up is going. Unless you have learned to rely totally on a leader in a formation - especially in an aerobatic team like the Arrows, it would be difficult for you to understand the relationships which develop amongst the members.

Team 'debriefs' after practices and shows have always been 'brutally honest' with no punches pulled - it had to be that way, and everybody deals with that in an adult mature way. Do not get carried away into scenarios of grumpy discontent simmering beneath the scenes. It was not like that. In my day the team - leaders and wingmen, had an enormous (and justified) say in choosing with whom they flew. Some did not make it through a whole tour for a variety of reasons, be they medical or other. In the history of the team there have been 'appointments' from outside which have not necessarily been right. All the leaders, 'successful' or not, have been outstanding pilots and people.

I can see no point in exploring in detail the way the team machinery has successfully worked over the last 45 years.

[jindabyne]

Perhaps still a little confusion here.

Flying Lawyer correctly describes the circumstances of the pilot who went on to be CAS, and 27mm is also correct in saying that he was the Hunter solo-aeros pilot in 1973; and it was at the end of that season that he was posted to the Reds.

The last sentence in stevew62's quote incorrectly links the ex-CAS pilot to the events in 1969.

[FAStoat]

Yes there does seem to be some confusion here.The said relieved leader was indeed the Solo Hunter display pilot for that time,and Ian Dick came back to lead in 74,having lead for 72 and 73.Dickie Duckett then took over in 75.The reason given at the time, I believe, was that said officer was not a QFI and the Reds were all A2 or above at the time.The real reason may have been different,but he did make the high rank as stated.What happened in 69,for S/L RG Hanna to come back and lead for a 3rd year may have been perfectly normal.It was generally common knowledge around the Display Circuit who was about to take over the Reds and when,but that was the only time a newcomer was nominated and never made it happen.

[Flying Lawyer]

FAStoat Yes there does seem to be some confusion here.

There was confusion initially but it had been cleared up, and the error in stevew62's recent post has also been pointed out.

With respect, there's a great deal of supposition in your post. For example, there was nothing "normal" about what happened in 1969. However, as JW411 says, although quite a few of us here know what happened, it really doesn't matter 40 years on.


El Bunto
Vested interests? :confused:
No, just common decency and concern for the feelings of others.
Nothing useful is achieved by revealing on a public forum the name of the leader who was replaced in 1969.

When I discussed with Ray Hanna's widow the main points of the obituary I was writing for The Times, she asked me to leave out even the bare fact that Ray had been recalled and simply state the number of years he was Leader. Her view, which she knew Ray shared, was that something which happened so many years ago should not be resurrected, particularly when the person involved might feel hurt/embarrassment. I readily agreed, not only out of respect for her wishes but because I could see that she was right.
She had no 'vested interest' but, having known her well for a few decades, I know her to be a kind lady who is considerate of others. I use the term 'lady' intentionally, just as there are occasions when I'd use the term 'gentleman' intentionally. (And, of course, times when someone demonstrates that they are not.)


.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

And let's hope that FL's post marks the end of this particular search for 'truth'. Naming the individual concerned will not add one jot to the sum total of human knowledge.
Those that need to know, know. And those that don't need to know don't.

[PPRuNe Pop]

I have deleted the post by El Punto simply because he, and he alone, appeared to think that it was acceptable to name the 1969 leader of the Reds. I absolutely disagree.

I knew him personally and we became good friends. I am also aware of the circumstances and I chose not to name him. It just did not matter - as one of the posters has already said and FL said this Her (Ray's widow) view, which she knew Ray shared, was that something which happened so many years ago should not be resurrected, particularly when the person involved might feel hurt/embarrassment. I readily agreed, not only out of respect for her wishes but because I could see that she was right.


He WAS embarrassed but that simply reflects the man. It does not, however, detract from his actual flying skills, which were, in all respects, admirable.

[Tonka Toy]

FL and the MOD you are both quite right. I for one am rather glad he did not continue in that role and it would appear that that pragmatic outlook was what propelled that individual to the top and placed him as one of the finest combat leaders in modern British air combat operations. I for one am glad he was leading there than in the Reds!:ok:

[Flying Lawyer]

Tonka Toy

Confusion again, I'm afraid.

The leader referred to by me in post 18 and by the Mod/ PPRuNe Pop was the man Ray Hanna was recalled to replace in 1969. (See question that started this thread.)
The man you are referring to resigned as Leader, continued his distinguished career and, in due course, became CAS.Two different events.
Two different people.

[Harry Hawker]

Somewhere in my archives I believe I have an original MoD PR (RAF) brochure outlining the new team with the said leader's mugshot covered by a pasted-in snap of his replacement...
Does anyone know what happened to original leader Lee Jones following his post-Service time in Australia and Jordan, please? I kept in touch for some years after we met at the Team end-of-season dining-in night at CFS in 1975 (when Lee was captain of King Hussein's air academy, where later he generously set up a Bulldog 'diamond nine' for my employer for an air-to-air sortie down Wadi Rum - halcyon days). Alas, I did not retain contact with Lee, whose in-laws were in Ringwood and to which area (perhaps?) he and 'Billy' retired, probably in the '90s?
Earlier this year I was able to renew acqauaintance with Dickie Duckett from that same period; the older I get, the further back I look...

[Wander00]

Did John Rands go from "team" to "Red 1"?

[blaireau]

You think you're old. I went to school with Dicky Duckett.

[Wander00]

DD was an UO on A Sqn at Cranditz when I was in the Junior Entry - John Cheshire was SUO