RAF Merlins crews unwilling to go to Afghanistan?

[ReachForTheStars]

'Combat ban' for Afghanistan helicopters - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/5968797/Combat-ban-for-Afghanistan-helicopters.html)

Surely the boys in light blue aren't trying to weedle their way out of their time in the desert because they don't have enough ballistic protection?!

"I don't want people to come back strapped into their seats with bullet holes in them" - Oh really, probably best to avoid jumping into a Sea King then.....

I'm sure the top brass were happy that this was 'leaked' out. Are the Crab merling boys/girls aware the Royal Navy have been out there for the last two years with even less ballistic protection then the Mk3 Merlin currently has, but you haven't found them whingeing....

Sometimes you have to get on and do the job with what you have...

Light the touchpaper....

[green granite]

The MOD have been pilloried for not supplying enough body armour to troops, not fitting fire quenching equipment to fuel tanks, etc etc, if they send out poorly armoured helicopters and they loose some then they will be pilloried again me thinks. So it's in the interests of all concerned to up the armour plating to a high level.
The trouble is of course that means they have to admit they got it wrong in the first place

[agincourt]

Without going into too much detail, haven't the safety critical areas of the aircraft already been identified and protected? The trouble with armour is that it is heavy and in hot and high conditions, extra weight is even more burdensome. Therefore some kind of compromise is required. Is the threat in Afghanistan so different from Iraq that operations in the former theatre are acceptable but not in the latter?

[Mick Strigg]

Why were they safe enough for Iraq, but not safe enough for Afghanistan? Do they use different bullets there?

[Evalu8ter]

The whole ballistic protection debate needs to be argued carefully. Yes, thanks to its' superior performance, the Chinook can carry a significant amount of armour in the cabin, and fuel, and payload. The Merlin can do two out of three. So, you can up-armour a Merlin (or SK/NH90/S-92 etc) and carry a warload to the other side of Kandahar or you can take a combat-configured load a meaningful distance with inferior cabin protection. The trade-off is that to generate the same effect in an armoured cab you need to fly more sorties - hence increasing your exposure to the enemy and the risks entailed with dust landings, not to mention reducing the combat effectiveness of the troops that you leave on the first wave...

Agincourt/Mick, yes, Afg is VERY different to Iraq; the kinetic threat is far greater and the density altitude robs platforms of a significant degree of performance (and with that the ability to carry armour and remain mission effective).

Merlin did a good job in Boz and Iraq, and the folly of the Tory decision to buy it in 1995 (and NuLabour's sticking plaster 3As a couple of years ago...) is only now being revealed as the cab will gasp a lot in Afg. That said, if you apply the ac in appropriate roles in Afg it can still deploy succesfully - just don't expect it to replace the Chinook as the platform of choice for direct assault ops.....

What would armchair generals have said if Herc crews had moaned and leaked the lack of ESF prior to TELIC? "Man Up"? "It'll never happen"? "Transport ac don't get shot at"? "Whinging crabs"?

I don't agree with how it's been done, but the debate is now in the open and somebody high up the chain will now have to shoulder the risk rather than sloping it.

[Sand4Gold]

Evalu8tor,

The Merlin can do two out of three.

the density altitude robs platforms of a significant degree of performance

the folly of the Tory decision to buy it in 1995

A good post - as each Merlin Mk3's Zero Fuel Weight creeps further to the right, its effectivness as a battlefield helicopter will diminish.

AA

[Valiantone]

Last night on the BBC 10pm news they had some breaking story about a report due out the regarding the MoD, which i believe is causing a bit of a stir.

Its not finished yet, but apparently the muppets (sorry Political :mad:s) claim the MoD is badly organised and not very good at its job on equipment purchasing.

I do find that a little rich considering the situation the Muppets have got us involved in. If only they could do a good job of running this country.:ugh:

V1

[nigegilb]

I thought the Danish Merlins were MK3As? Higher specced MK3As at that.

If so, someone in procurement most probably took the decision a while back NOT to go for kevlar armour, penny pinching again.

Lessons are only learned in individual stove pipes, or so it would seem.

BTW we got these Merlins in order to jump the queue because we were short of choppers, anyone know when the Danes are receiving their replacement Merlins?

[agincourt]

Nigegilb,

I thought the Danish Merlins were MK3As? Higher specced MK3As at that.


You are correct about the first part the second part is debatable. However, I think it is a red herring - as far as I am aware (someone please correct me if I am wrong) there are no current plans to deploy them to Afghanistan - support of a mixed Mk3/3A fleet would be a nightmare, as I imagine Benson is discovering.

The replacement aircraft WE (UK MOD) are procuring for the Danes are nearing completion at Yeovil.

There were plenty of people in the Merlin IPT who questioned the wisdom of the decision to buy the aircraft from the Danes, particularly on the terms that were eventually agreed. (Short term political expediency set against the logistical problems of operating two subtly but significantly different marks of aircraft as a single fleet.) Unfortunately they did not get much say in the decision making process

[Data-Lynx]

Nige. Try this report from RAF Benson for 78 Sqn Merlin HC3A (http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/hangar/2008/462_78sqn/78sqn.htm). MoD does know about the need for ballistic protection but it may not have got high enough up the ladder to be fitted before the aircraft is needed in Th.

For the Danish Merlins, MoD stated in Mar 07:
The six new build aircraft will be built at AgustaWestland's Yeovil facility for the UK MoD who will then deliver the aircraft to the Royal Danish Air Force to replace the original aircraft. The first of these new build aircraft will be delivered to Denmark 24 months after the contract signature.

The original document was signed on 30 Mar 07 and the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) was reported to have been signed in June 2007 with the Royal Danish Air Force. 2 years later, I don't remember the Western Morning News hailing the 1st departure of a RDAF Merlin from 'Vile this summer.

[Valiantone]

Data Lynx,

I believe that the first airframe has been seen outside at Yeovil. I might be wrong however.

V1

[nigegilb]

OK so the Danish are now receiving their new Merlins BEFORE the MoD/Danish merlins are entering service in Afg. I wonder which nation got the priority on the production line? Anyone know if our IPT is involved in the replacement Merlins for Denmark?

It would appear that MoD is under huge pressure to get these Merlins into service (one year late to date) and that the replacements may well have taken priority, meaning our Merlins have not been modded in time.

This leaves commanders in an unenviable position, I am referring to XV179 and the knowing deployments of aircraft NOT fit for purpose.

P**S Up, Brewery?

[agincourt]

It would appear that MoD is under huge pressure to get these Merlins into service (one year late to date) and that the replacements may well have taken priority, meaning our Merlins have not been modded in time.

Although there are UORs for the MK3/3A going through, I don't believe any of them relate to additional armour for the aircraft.

The Merlin Project Team is fully (albeit reluctantly in some quarters) involved in providing the Danes with replacement aircraft. It was widely predicted by some members of the IPT (before it was disIntegrated) that buiding new aircraft would be a quicker (and probably cheaper) process than buying second hand aircraft from the Danes and converting them to Mk3As.

[Data-Lynx]

Nige & Val. One bird has been seen rotors running but I don't think it has departed.

[vecvechookattack]

"bird"... who calls a helicopter a "bird"

[Heathen_Sol]

Can someone explain the difference between ballistic protection and full kevlar please?

With regards to what calibre and type of threat aircraft could or could not withstand.

[Data-Lynx]

VV. Just a mark of respect for the only UK helo to be named after a real feathered beast (Falco columbarius).

Heathen. No

[Evalu8ter]

Heathen Sol,
WRT calibres / types etc, in a word - No.

If you need to know then you already do....

Kevlar is just one type of armour, you could also use ceramic or good old steel plate. Each has advantages and disadvantages for rotary applications.

I'm not getting specifically at the Merlin; the "2 out of 3" comment applies to all rotorcraft in Afg - Even the mighty CH47 won't be carrying 55 troops in LFO, full tanks and BP over there. It's just that if your disposable payload is relatively small, things like BP rapidly eat into it.

[nigegilb]

I have had my concerns about helo self-protection for some time, but have not dared go public because of Talib stated intent to bring down coalition helos in theatre. It is not very clever to expose ANY weakness in public or to explore the detail. Regarding RN aircraft, I have intimate knowledge of how RN handled the mid-air tragedy at the start of GW2, the disgraceful way the families were kept in the dark. They will not get away with it again, I urge anyone to listen to R4 File on 4 recent program.

The real problem here, for a "can do" UK military is that there is a job to be done, in achieving the task, safety is having to take a back seat, because, relatively speaking, the risks soldiers are having to take on the ground are far greater.

MoD has learned nothing from the Nimrod, Herk, or Sea King tragedies.

Whatever happens, commanders will be criticised. Deploy Merlin crews without adequate protection, or keep them out of theatre and watch more soldiers being blown up in vehicles without adequate protection.

This is what happens when gung ho military planners, generals and clueless politicians launch into a war without proper funding, equipment or manpower.

Questions;
Has Westland been leaned so much there is no capacity for parallel production line?

If no, does the Danish order have priority over our own?

Who is paying the slippage for any delay in delivery schedule for the replacement Merlins bought by Denmark?

Is the forthcoming training mission to California, actually a trial because there is limited read across on clearances between MK3 and MK3A?

Is training/conversion still required from MK3 to MK3A?

Would it have been a better idea to simply have ordered more MK3s?

[ReachForTheStars]

Heathen Sol - Agree with other posts, afraid that sort of information is not for the public domain, who knows your first name could be Terry....

Surely the 'risk' with the RN SK's has been borne by JHC, not by the RN given that they are a Land asset, so why do the Merlin's not come under the same 'umbrella'?!

Incidentally, it could be worse, you could be flying a bag. You'd be lucky just to get off the ground in the summer.

Interestingly I recall a certain VVIP who wasn't transported in a SK last year in AFG, because the SK wasn't deemed 'safe' enogh with regards ballistic protection - thats nice to know when its strapped to your backside....

[agincourt]

Would it have been a better idea to simply have ordered more MK3s?


Absolutely! But ideally marinized and fitted for (not necessarily with) a folding head and tail, so they could be trialled as a SK4 replacement.

[Benjybh]

What is the current SK4 OSD?

[Yeoman_dai]

Speaking of them as a possible Sea King replacement...

Evalu8er mentioned that Merlin can do 2 out of 3 things - payload/protection/range - i'm guessing SK is even worse?

So, for the Junglies, all three of those issues are fairly critical, their job being an assault helicopter force, so need long range for over the horizon lifts, protection to be able to fly into well protected areas, and still carry plenty of Booties.... which Merlin cannot do so well? At least compared to other aircraft?

So the question I ask here, is which priority should these be in? Then, once prioritised, which aircraft type would be best to replace it?

I understand that thats a fairly simplistic way of looking at it - cost and training/logs infrastructure also must count, but I'm wondering at the basic type vs type level...

The two i've heard thrown about the most are Merlin as mentioned, and a marinized version of Chinook (if such a thing exists?)

[Archimedes]

Before anyone launches into the real BigGreenGilbert, note the spelling of the last poster's name - our friendly replicant troll again! :rolleyes:

Edit - who has now been deleted by the MoDs, which is why the above makes no sense to anyone new to the thread...

[PTC REMF]

Even the mighty CH47 won't be carrying 55 troops in LFO, full tanks and BP over there.


You'd be surprised.

;)

[TheWizard]

'Combat ban' for Afghanistan helicopters - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/5968797/Combat-ban-for-Afghanistan-helicopters.html)

Surely the boys in light blue aren't trying to weedle their way out of their time in the desert because they don't have enough ballistic protection?!

"I don't want people to come back strapped into their seats with bullet holes in them" - Oh really, probably best to avoid jumping into a Sea King then.....

I'm sure the top brass were happy that this was 'leaked' out. Are the Crab merling boys/girls aware the Royal Navy have been out there for the last two years with even less ballistic protection then the Mk3 Merlin currently has, but you haven't found them whingeing....

Sometimes you have to get on and do the job with what you have...

Light the touchpaper....


Reachforthebucket, as it appears you are not of the children who is often hijacking this forum, then you are a complete and utter tw@.
Do you really think that after 5 years of ops in Iraq (yes, getting shot at too) that the Merlin crews are not prepared to deploy to Afghan? The Merlin Force has done more than its fair share in the desert than I suspect you have.
I am not going to start fishhead bashing as I will leave that to prats like you.

I bet you are one of those idiots that goes on a joint op and finds everything possible wrong with everyone but yourself. Well done on your 'light hearted prod' at the Merlin Force. Hilarious.:rolleyes:

[nigegilb]

I must say, Reach, it takes a certain kind of person, either incredibly brave, or incredibly stupid, to boast on an open forum about the lack of protection and risks he is taking in a theatre of war.

I fail to see what is so great about flying around in a helicopter that is not fit for purpose, but to broadcast the situation is fcuking stupid.

The decision to deploy, or otherwise Merlin crews into Afg will have fcuk all to do with the crews themselves. They will do as they are ordered and do it well.

Congratulations for placing your colleagues at increased risk.......

Edited to add for the benefit of Strobin Purple, I was not referring to anti RPG armour, but I am not willing to discuss specific ballistic protection in public. Neither, I believe, should you be, either regarding Merlin or Sea King.

[Strobin Purple]

That'll be a bite then! Don't rise Wiz....

In answer to the OP, no....and don't believe everything you read in the papers, a top RAF insider told Pprune.

What you have is an entire force that has been champing at the bit to get to Afgh for years with lots of wheedling and ducking and diving to ensure that folks get on the first det....why any of you would think that Merlin SH crews who, as a part of their normal working routine, operate day in, day out in a threat environment, would baulk at a few RPGs, defeats me. To the OP, maybe if it was true it would make you feel better about yourself? PM me, we can talk about it if you want?

There seem to be so many Merlin 3/3A experts on here I am surprised no-one said it earlier.

And it's always a pleasure to follow the SK4s into th if only to watch them try and blame a Merlin crew for crashing an overweight SK4 . Bloody heroes the lot of 'em.:D

And nigegilb go and grind your hysterical axe elsewhere. When you find the lightweight helicopter anti-RPG armour, let me know, I'll have a dozen sets, in green.

[Ian Corrigible]

What is the current SK4 OSD?

Stated in yesterday's articles on the Puma HC.2 upgrade as being 2017.

I/C

[DuckDodgers]

So in addition to the debate about BP, how is the entire Merlin Force re-set going in Southern California/Arizona operating out of Naval air Facility El Centro?

[minigundiplomat]

the Royal Navy have been out there for the last two years with even less ballistic protection then the Mk3 Merlin currently has



but you haven't found them whingeing....




Perhaps these two statements are linked by more than just a sentence?

Catch 22

[Megawart]

Rant on

We had cockpit armour on the Wessex 20 years ago - surely no-one would argue that the Wessex has more performance than the Merlin.

Secondly, anyone that argues that you should go to a shooting war in a helicopter without cockpit armour fully deserves the Darwin award that must surely be coming their way.

And finally, I wish one of our Commanders had the balls to tell some VVIP that he is going to be transported to Hellmand by road because of the lack of helicopters. I suspect we'd either get more helicopters or less VVIP visitors.

Rant off...

[Yeoman_dai]

Amusing as that idea is, it surely must be slightly tongue in cheek to suggest sending visitors by vehicle?

Can you imagine the propaganda Terry would get if the PM or MP's were killed? Can't reallly risk it, eh?

[nigegilb]

Megawart, I doubt commies like Ainsworth would ever risk their necks in a snatch landrover, but it sounds like they should be flown into theatre in a Sea King, should be good enough for a reaction. A former colleague of mine had great fun telling Geoff Hoon and his 1 star adviser that the C130 he was flying in (over Afg), had absolutely no ballistic protection and an anti-missile system that didn't work. The 1 star harrier mate allegedly tried to tell the captain he must be mistaken....
All very funny and it went very quiet on the flight deck afterwards, VIP guests looking very pale faced.

[Strobin Purple]

nigegilb just got the edit.

How can you spend half your life on a forum discussing the operational failings of Britmil FW/RW and then pompously attempt to 'Beadwindow' me on something that was mooted in the original DT article? I am far more conscious of what is plainly evident/open forum than you in relation to this (RW) topic and you quite patently don't have a clue what you're talking about. Just stick to the C130/ESF and leave the RW fraternity alone, we're busy enough without becoming part of your particular self-publicising crusade.

And stop chucking phrases like 'not fit for purpose' and 'gung-ho planners' around and reduce the hysteria...or are you after a job with a red top rag? Your writing style is perfect for the NOTW or Daily Sport.

Patronising hypocrite!

[nigegilb]

Oh right, that would be the Daily Telegraph article that you rubbished, "why any of you would think that Merlin SH crews who, as a part of their normal working routine, operate day in, day out in a threat environment, would baulk at a few RPGs, defeats me."

Nowhere does it mention SeaKing in the article and by confirming the lack of anti RPG armour on Merlin, you are confirming the truth behind the article.

And BTW the MoD published the BoI report on XV179 on the internet, years before modding any of the frames and before I ever uttered a word in public, so don't try and hang that on me.

If you think sending WIMIKS on MSRs to complete helicopter resupply tasks because there are no helicopters to do the job, is a sign of good military planning, then more fool you. The SeaKings are needed because of the terrible risks of IED attack and because of a lack of SH, doesn't mean they are fit for purpose. Or are you saying they are?

"Currently running in Exeter is the inquest on the death of Pte Jack Sadler, which we covered last year, with the inquest proceedings attracting an interim report from The Daily Telegraph.

Jack, a TA volunteer in Honourable Artillery Company, was a Wimik gunner, attached to the Brigade Reconnaissance Force (BRF) serving 52 Brigade in Afghanistan during Operation Herrick 7.

On 4 December 2007, the BRF, comprising a group of Wimiks, was scouting a route for an artillery convoy of made up of two Pinzgauers each pulling a 105mm light gun, plus DROPS trucks carrying the ammunition. They were on their way to a firing point close to Musa Qala to take part in the operation to recover the town.

Making pitifully slow progress over the rough ground, they had been observed by what they feared might have been Taleban "dickers" as they had skirted a village en route before then reaching a "problematic" steep-sided wadi which they had to cross, following a route they had taken the day before – the only one which the trucks could negotiate.

Because of the heavy trucks the Force was escorting, there were only a very limited number of points at which the wadi could be crossed. While scouting the route across, Jack's Wimik hit a mine, with him sustaining fatal injuries.

No mine clearance had been carried out as the convoy was static while the reconnaissance was carried out. It was a "sitting target" and an attack was feared if it remained in one place too long, so the pressure was on to get the convoy moving again. But, on the rocky ground, the Group commander did not suspect any danger. There were no "Combat Indicators" suggesting trouble and no one in the group "sensed" any danger.

Had there been enough helicopters, the two guns and their supplies of ammunition could easily have been transported by air – as underslung loads. This would be an easy job for a Chinook. But, with a major operation in the offing, there was no spare capacity and, therefore, the battery had to travel by road, with fatal results."

There are about 30 deaths attributable to similar circumstances.

I fully understand the concept of fitness for purpose and I am very comfortable in the context in which I have used it. You are the one who appears to be struggling to understand the concept. It is simple, if there is a ballistic threat, it needs to be countered. If it is not countered and there is shown to be a cost effective and straightforward solution, promulgated in DefStans then it is not fit for purpose. I understand the problem in the RW with helo performance and that is where military risk is currently being used, on certain types.

For a more macro look at why I am so critical of military planners here is a bit of bed time reading; (warning there are some long words in here)

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmdfence/558/558.pdf

All the problems of shortages of men, equipment and support predicted for the 2006 deployment to Afg and ignored. I am comfortable with my description of military planning as gung ho.

59. "Given the importance to the Helmand mission of airlift capability, we note with concern the small number of UK helicopters dedicated to the deployment. We welcome the commitment made by the US and Dutch air forces to supplement the UK airlift. We remain deeply concerned about the ability of the UK’s ten dedicated helicopters to perform the extensive range of roles that will be asked of them, particularly given the demanding environment in which they will operate and the likely attrition rates that
will result."


MoD Response to the above Defence Committee criticism;

Powered by Google Docs (http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:os0Kqvqa-N0J:www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmdfence/1024/1024.pdf+MoD+response+to+uk+deployment+to+afghanistan&hl=en)

20. As announced by the Secretary of State on 26 January, the HTF will be supported by a total of 18 helicopters: 6 Chinook support helicopters, 4 Lynx light utility helicopters, and 8 Apache attack helicopters.

21. The number of support helicopters deployed on this mission is based on
recommendations made by the relevant military planning staffs and was agreed by Chiefs of Staff earlier this year. The planning figure takes into account the expected flying hours for each aircraft and attrition rates. These planning assumptions will be kept under review.


For an update on the situation, the recently published and devastating FCO report that starkly highlighted the mission creep and lack of clarity of mission purpose. Apologies to everyone for thread creep.

House of Commons - Global Security: Afghanistan and Pakistan - Foreign Affairs Committee (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmfaff/302/30202.htm)

CHAPTER 6: THE UK'S MISSION IN AFGHANISTAN

The UK's expanding mission in Afghanistan

29. We conclude that the UK's mission in Afghanistan has taken on a significantly different, and considerably expanded, character since the first British troops were deployed there in 2001. The UK has moved from its initial goal of supporting the US in countering international terrorism, far into the realms of counter-insurgency, counter-narcotics, protection of human rights, and state-building. During our visit we were struck by the sheer magnitude of the task confronting the UK. We conclude that there has been significant 'mission creep' in the British deployment to Afghanistan, and that this has resulted in the British government being now committed to a wide range of objectives. We further conclude that in its response to this Report, the Government should set out, in unambiguous terms, its first and most important priority in Afghanistan. (Paragraph 225)

The UK deployment to Helmand

30. We conclude that the UK deployment to Helmand was undermined by unrealistic planning at senior levels, poor co-ordination between Whitehall departments and crucially, a failure to provide the military with clear direction. We further conclude that as the situation currently stands, the "comprehensive approach" is faltering, largely because the security situation is preventing any strengthening of governance and Afghan capacity. The very clear conclusion that we took from our visit to Helmand is that stabilisation need not be complicated or expensive, but it does require provision of security, good governance, and a belief within the local population that ISAF forces will outlast the insurgents. (Paragraph 236)

The role of, and impact on, the British armed forces

31. We conclude that the Government must ensure that our armed forces are provided with the appropriate resources to undertake the tasks requested of them, particularly in an environment as challenging as Helmand. We further conclude that in spite of well-documented difficulties, British armed forces are now gradually beginning to create and sustain the conditions that make it possible to extend good governance and the rule of law in the most heavily populated areas of Helmand. We conclude that the support provided by additional equipment and by the US 'surge' of troops in Helmand will be of considerable assistance, and is greatly to be welcomed. (Paragraph 248)

[Strobin Purple]

Rather confused logic going on!

[Chugalug2]

Strobin:

Rather confused logic going on!

I rather suspect that Nigegilb is thinking the same thing, but about yourself. It may or may not be of any consolation, but you are merely one of countless others who have attacked Nige for having pointed out the shortcomings of their particular mount over recent years. Now I can empathise with that reaction, I'm sure he does too, but his condemnation is not of the aircraft so much as those who have ensured that they are compromised for the work that they have to do. In other words they lack airworthiness. Until he showed that was the case of the Hercules, the very notion that there was any such deficiency in the UK Military Airfleet was firmly denied. Since then the MOD has admitted that was the case not only of the Hercules but also of the Nimrod fleet. The Mull thread points to an even graver situation, if that be possible, with the premature RTS of the Chinook Mk2. Other fleets are in turn liable to produce evidence of neglect by the UK Military Airworthiness Authority. At least now these deficiencies are becoming known to the most important people in the system, the crews themselves. I flew the Hercules K's in blissful ignorance of their unsuitability for their ultimate purpose, ie as Tactical Transport into Operational Areas. I applaud Nige for ensuring that is no longer the case and look forward to the time when we can once again assume the same for all UK Military Aircraft.

[Strobin Purple]

Chugalug

My initial defence was from a cheap shot by a Junglie at a supposed unwillingness of an entire SH force to shoulder the burden in Afgh. This was generated by an unsubstantiated and sensationalist report in the DT that achieves nothing. Helicopters vulnerable to ground fire you say? BP to protect RW weighs a lot and reduces ability of helicopter to do its business....nah really? Enemy likely to target RW in th; crikey, you think?

My objection to the vehemence of ng's bandwagon-style and wildly (in this case) inaccurate Not Fit For Purpose mantra, regardless of the level of his subject knowledge, is that it is sensationalist and damaging to the morale of those required to operate it in harm's way. Like I said the threat is something SH crews live with on a daily basis and just get on with. I don't need an armchair critic advising me how fit for purpose my ac is or giving me hypocritical lectures on opsec over something that is as plain as day common sense.

SP

[Chugalug2]

Well as yet another armchair critic, and outfitted with the optional slippers as well, I take your point, Strobin. By the same token in replying to you, Nige and myself for that matter are addressing the wider audience of those who read this thread. If either of us are preaching, ranting, or lecturing your criticism is justified. As to demoralising I robustly resent that charge whether directed at me or Nige. Save your condemnation for those who have brought UK Military Airworthiness to its reduced circumstances. You know, senior military officers of all three services. Those who were/are responsible for this neglect should shoulder the charge of demoralising crews as the very least of their misdemeanors. Finally my earnest wish for you Strobin, and for all in harm's way, is to stay safe. Please!

[Jackonicko]

FFS!

An operational exponent of the Merlin has said that Nige Gilb's assessment of Merlin's fitness for purpose is wrong, and that such a charge is demoralising. Resent it all you want, but having been told by a real live current expert that the charge is both wrong AND is damaging morale, why not have the decency, humility and good sense to get down off that high horse, remove your nose from Nige's @rse, shut up and move on from a subject about which you (and Nige) plainly don't have the experience or knowledge to match your opinions and pontifications?

As to the cheap shots about the willingness or otherwise of Merlin crews to deploy (I'm disappointed in you, MGD, that goes beyond your usual 'top banter' into something that's offensive :ok: but also unworthy :(), then perhaps you should remember Flight Lieutenant Goodman, and ask yourself whether it really was her 'gun shy' nature that resulted in the first DFC award to a woman pilot?

I'd be surprised, personally........

[NURSE]

Is there a danger that the issue of Merlins will keep raising its ugly head as elements of the SH community still resent their continuing in service as they wanted more of their own pet toys to play with?

[bast0n]

Strobin

Junglie is actually Jungly - inspite of Prince Charles spelling it as you do!!:ok:

Bring back the Wessex 5 - lots of unfit for purpose, but what FUN:)

[Chugalug2]

Jackonicko: FFS!

Ah! A contribution from our resident man of letters. Writing any good books lately, Jacko? OMG, you're not writing one about an existing senior officer and so got upset about what I've said about some of them? Oh dear, what a pity, never mind, lovely boys, as Windsor Davies might have said. Mind you I do endorse your sentiments about the bravery of Flt Lt Goodman DFC and indeed of all who are doing such dangerous work on our behalf. All the more important surely to keep demanding that they get sufficient fit for purpose kit to do it? I do not offer any comments on the Merlin in that regard other than to say that the urgent need, in common with so much in AFG, is for both quality and quantity. Both cost money. Both must be forthcoming. Now could you just give me a hand, old boy, to get down off this mangy old nag?

[flipster]

I think Jacko got out the wrong side of the bed today?

having been told by a real live current expert that the charge is wrong

Jacko,

Please remember that there were people who thought the same of the Herc and Nimrod and that now the Govt and MoD have admitted in court that this was not the case.

While some tempers get heated on here, let us all remember that every brave crewman (or woman) expects to be given the tools with which to do the job properlyand as safely as is possible. Because our Services risk so much on our behalf, then it is our moral obligation to ensure that happens (it maintains operational effectiveness and our scarce personnel and resources, at the very least!). For politicians and the military commanders to fail in this respect is to break the unwritten moral code or 'military covenant'.

Yes, the timescales in war can be short, which is why, on occasion, the military has had to 'get on with what they have got' - eg AFG 2001-3. Unfortunately, in this case, such an excuse does NOT apply. This conflict has been going on for nearly 8 years, for gooness sake and there has been plenty of time to ensure we go to war with enough well-protected and effective SH. Sadly, it appears that the mess that our procurement and airworthiness system has become has just not produced the goods in time - literally! Why? The self-regulating military procurement/AW system lacks oversight, money and experience and the senior masters thereof seem to lack the courage and will to stand up to industry and the politicians; they will all have to live with their role in this scandal.

But, as a result, it is our friends and family that will continue to die unecessarily. For the greater good of our Servicemen and Servicewomen, that has to change and I, for one, will not stand by idly and watch evil and selfishness destroy the lives and the reputations of the Services so many so us hold dear.

Coming?

[Capt Pit Bull]

Amusing as that idea is, it surely must be slightly tongue in cheek to suggest sending visitors by vehicle?

Can you imagine the propaganda Terry would get if the PM or MP's were killed? Can't reallly risk it, eh?

Actually, maybe if Brown was cruising around Helmand by land vehicle, terry wouldn't risk setting off any roadside bombs. I would expect they'd be happy to see Brown stay in office for as long as possible. If they killed him, they'd run the risk of facing somebody competant in charge of the UK instead....

[Jackonicko]

I'm entirely happy that the operators themselves have a better grasp of acceptable risk than I do.

Self evidently, they also have a better grasp than embittered ex-Herc men with a party political axe to grind.

If the Merlin crews are happy to go to war with what they've got, then that's what they should be allowed to get on and do, and without inappropriate hand wringing about airworthiness and vulnerability that will only serve to worry the families and undermine morale.

For our part, we should ensure that the pressure for more assets and for improvements is gently maintained.

But alarmist scare stories, blowing shortcomings up out of all proportion (and especially disgraceful and derogatory remarks about their willingness to deploy) do not help.

Clearly Strobin' feels that the Merlin is 'fit for purpose' in Afghanistan, and that the Merlin is a "tool with which to do the job properly". And he is better qualified to judge such matters that than those who are moaning and whingeing, wringing their hands and getting hot under the collar to the contrary.

There are, clearly, some shortcomings that will put our people at greater risk, and we should obviously seek to address these, but it is equally clear that there is no scandalous deficiency that would warrant witholding them from the line.


Chugalug,

"Writing any good books lately, Jacko? OMG, you're not writing one about an existing senior officer and so got upset about what I've said about some of them?"

Hardly. What you say about anyone is hardly important, but if I get an easy opportunity to slapping you down when you're being even more fatuously silly and kneejerk Tory than usual, then obviously I'll take it.

I suggest you go back to campaigning for memorials to Bomber Command, and to dreaming up other ways to direspect and minimise the contribution of those who served in other commands.

[The Gorilla]

jacko

Is it me or have you changed your tune somewhat?

come about!!!

TG

[Chugalug2]

Jacko:

I suggest you go back to campaigning for memorials to Bomber Command, and to dreaming up other ways to direspect and minimise the contribution of those who served in other commands.

And I suggest you go back to bed Jacko and sleep it off. The only one being offensive around here is you. When you wake up perhaps you could quote me being disrespectful and minimising the contribution of those of any Command anywhere, ever. Play the tapes Jacko, play the tapes.

[Yeoman_dai]

'There is no refuge, no place to go to deal with your grief' - Asia, World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/there-is-no-refuge-no-place-to-go-to-deal-with-your-grief-1769938.html)

I'm a Times reader myself, but this was mentioned over on ARRSE, thought it fit with specific regard to the central core of the article about lack of helicopters...:sad:

Very brave man/woman who wrote this article, BZ to you sir/Ma'am. Echo's the thoughts of many of the soldiers I know. :bored:



Oh, and Jacko/Chug, isn't this the wrong place to be getting personal eh? :hmm:

[Data-Lynx]

Just a thought that if military specialist, veteran and informed journos cannot settle differences, how does it look to the young Captain in the field?
Some extracts from the link above are heart rending:
I am just speaking for those of us who deal with the deaths and injuries in Afghanistan indirectly, as an explosion in the distance, followed by a report on the radio, then a helicopter coming in to pick up the casualty.
Then there are the equipment shortages. Due to the pitiful numbers of support helicopters and Apaches needed to escort them, every day troops on the ground are forced to expend an enormous amount of hours and manpower just standing still. They sacrifice their reserves of energy, motivation and willpower securing and picketing routes for the never-ending vehicle convoys that have to keep happening in order to resupply the patchy spread of patrol bases with water, ammo and rations; as well as recovering the vehicles that invariably go into ditches and securing helicopter landing-sites for the evacuation of casualties from improvised explosive device strikes.
Its energy, time and focus is bound up with those road moves, and our most vital asset, our troops, are either sweating on the sides of the roads, securing them, or sweating inside the vehicles of those often doomed convoys. I am not criticising the military on the ground, who have to deal with this dilemma. Everyone seems to already agree on this issue of the equipment, in particular the lack of support helicopters – which rather begs the question of how on earth is nothing done about it? And how does the fact that nothing gets done about it seem to be the status quo and keeps occurring year after year, budgetary policy after budgetary policy, operational tour after operational tour? If a magic genie were to appear in front of my eyes, who in keeping with the spirit of the present credit crunch cutbacks, could afford to grant me just one wish, I think I would simply choose a massive increase in helicopters and pilots – a wish that would have such a crucial influence on what is happening to the British Army out here.

[glad rag]

Actually, maybe if Brown was cruising around Helmand by land vehicle, terry wouldn't risk setting off any roadside bombs. I would expect they'd be happy to see Brown stay in office for as long as possible. If they killed him, they'd run the risk of facing somebody competant in charge of the UK instead...."


Be careful what you wish for glasshopper......

http://images.newstatesman.com/articles/2006/948/948_p28.jpg

[Yeoman_dai]

£50 fine to H4H for putting that damn womans face up glad rag!:yuk: :ok:

[Chugalug2]

I've just read the Independent story. I suppose the default reaction is to say how humble it makes one feel. Well it makes feel bloody angry. I don't know what response this country is going to give this young man, but he deserves one, and a logical objective and practical one at that. I haven't heard one yet but surely it should at least assure him that his genii will provide many more of the SH helicopters and crews for which he yearns and that they should all be fit for purpose?
Dai, you are quite right of course. No doubt PPRuNe Pop will soon be on the scene to take names and addresses. In the meantime apologies to you and everyone else for the unseemly domestic spat!

[flipster]

JTO,

I am glad you can put things straight and I was, in no way, inferring that people at the middle and lower levels of MoD are not pulling their weight - they are often the ones who have seen recent action and know the limitations our kit. I also know there are many good people (like your good self) doing all that they can to get the proverbial quart out of a pint-pot. I am also sure that the Merlin and Platform Protection, as whole, is as good as it can be (and way, way better than it was - a feat of cunning that 'the many' whom you mention should all be rightly proud).

But, given the funding, the MoD could probably have done even better and more quickly. Even then, the total number of frames is just insufficient for the task in hand; that's the problem, I fear. It is them with egg on the their hats and the politicians who are the ones who are even now condemning too many soldiers to the roads and dirt tracks of Helmand by not addressing the paltry amount allotted to the war. They are the ones who have not done enough to ensure you have the tools to do the job and are not fit to lick your boots.

Nonetheless, I consider myself ticked off and will be retiring off thread - on hols.

Good luck to all those 'sausage-side' (or is that 'kebab-continent'?)

TTFN

[minigundiplomat]

As to the cheap shots about the willingness or otherwise of Merlin crews to deploy (I'm disappointed in you, MGD, that goes beyond your usual 'top banter' into something that's offensive http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif but also unworthy http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif), then perhaps you should remember Flight Lieutenant Goodman, and ask yourself whether it really was her 'gun shy' nature that resulted in the first DFC award to a woman pilot?



I think this whole thread is ballcocks. There is nothing lacking in the Merlin crews determination to deploy whatsoever, and despite any lighthearted banter I may have with Wizard et al, I found the initial post distasteful.

The only post I have made on here, for the reasons outlined above, was that maybe if the RN had made more a fuss before, they may have the armour they are now moaning about the fact they havent moaned about!

Jacko - Read my post again, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick.

[Jackonicko]

MGD,

Sincere apologies.

I think that I did misread it.

Sorry, chap.

JN

[brandnew]

Hmmm...

The Merlin Force.

I had the pleasure of working alongside this lot out on TELIC.

Some observations (and only personal observations before everyone gets excited):

1. They drive a big, powerful (comparitively - stand fast wokka mates) unfatiguing modern aircraft, that is apparently fairly easy to drive.

2. They had (note had) a bit of a chip on their shoulder about being initially tainted as the wierd and freaky rejects from the SH Force. This had largely gone, but the slight whiff of chippyness remains.

3. They have a penchant for outrageous propoganda. I dinstinctly remember one OC 1419 Flt telling Div that they could move an infantry company in two aircraft. When tasked to do so, he revealed that they could indeed move a company in two aircraft, but that it would take three waves! This then discreditied the whole of JHF(I) for the next few weeks.

4. The move down to UAAF in Kuwait was conducted with what one impartial observor called "indecent haste". This unfortunately led to the impression (probably unfair) that they legged it from Basra when the going got tough.

5. Trying to task them once down in UAAF was unacceptably difficult. The feeling at the time (again probably unfair) was that they would go U/S at the first opportunity and spend all day eating ice cream in shorts in Kuwait, while the rest of us had a war to fight. They had clearly lost the perception battle!

6. They seemed to "big up" any IRT shout, no matter how minor, to ridiculous proportions. I accept that MG and latterly KH performed well on their respective days, but when judged against MH et al from the Chinook Force on HERRICK? Is it really in the same league?

(Just to qualify this last point, I have recently returned again from HERRICK, and seen how the excellent Chinook Force conduct themselves - very humbly and professionally indeed. This contrasts interestingly when compared to the fairly arrogant behaviour of the Merlin Force on TELIC.)

7. Lastly, and this is an army point of view so I accept there will be a difference of opinion. The Merlin Force seem very uninterested in the Land picture. On TELIC, they had no interest in the Higher Commander's Intent, his Scheme of Manouvre or any part of his plan. They rather arrogantly declared that they were delivering Air Power, and seemed deliberatly ignorant of the battlespace within which they were flying.

(Just to bring this up to date, I have been astounded by the Merlin Force's unwillingness to co-operate or even attend any of the many pre-HERRICK MRX's. It's not as if it's far away - I guess that Benson to SPTA is all of a 15 min transit. This compares unfavourably with the Chinook Force, who always attend, provide an SME when required and input excellent points in the pre-exercise planning meetings, and the PXR's when asked.)

8. The 6 month long detachment to El Centro to conduct aircrew-only PDT is without precedent. No other force has been allowed to do this. What is wrong with Morroco? It seems to suit the Chinook Force. What is wrong with Kenya? Hey, they could even support the army out there as well! it is sort of their job.... How about Arizona? The Merlin Force could practise some TTPs with the Apache boys. I am amazed, especially in an era where finances are restricted, that this has been allowed to happen. Again, the perception battle has not been won, and El Centro PDT is fast becoming a dirty phrase!

Just to conclude - I accept that comparing the vastly experienced, professional and operationally seasoned Chinook Force with the rather juvenile (in terms of time the A/C has been in service) Merlin Force could be unfair. However, the feeling in certain army circles is that the Merlin Force SERIOUSLY need to raise their game if they are not going to fall flat on their face in Afghanistan.

On the subject of up-armouring the A/C, I don't think that "Sources from the Merlin Fleet" bleating to the press is necessarily the sensible and mature way to secure your UOR! Go through normal channels. I've been doing it for years, and believe me, if you REALLY need it, and there's money available, then you'll get it. And pretty quickly too.

Yet again, these are only personal opinions from personal obervations. Please don't get too excited

Fly safe, and see you all in Bastion again next year!

[TheWizard]

Edit: deleted because this has turned into a willy waving farce. It serves no purpose and is causing more harm than good.

[Fox3snapshot]

Operating in Oman Territories / International waters and declared an emergency with gearbox problems and landed in OMFJ (UAE). All safe and sound :ok:

[Ian Corrigible]

Reference to the RAF Merlins needing "...modifications, such as new rotor blades, for higher altitudes" in today's BBC article. Does this mean the Mk3/Mk3A will be deploying to the 'Stan with BERP IV?

'No rush' to redeploy helicopters (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8195504.stm)

I/C

[Yeoman_dai]

'enough helicopters for operational needs' my arrse...

[airborne_artist]

"These are not family cars," said Bob Ainsworth. "There are a number of them that are broken and need repairs."

Makes you wonder how useful they were in Iraq, and how they got back....

Still, good to hear that Bob Aintworthit knows how to speak aircraft technical-like.

[Minorite invisible]

Someone rightfully posted a very valid comment, but no one followed up on it.

The useful load of an aircraft is defined as the sum of the crew, the fuel and the payload.

Many aircraft also have a zero fuel weight which also limits the Maximum payload. The Maximum Payload is defined as the maximum take-off weight minus the zero fuel weight.

Some aircraft have a Maximum landing weight.

Helicopters have further limitation such hovering weight in and out of ground effect.

When any extra equipment is added to an aircraft, helicopter, fixed wing or whatever the empty weight increases. Any increase to the empty weight reduces the useful load and the payload. This requires the fuel and/or the payload to be reduced. Such a reduction increases the number of trips that are required, or increases the number of fuel stops, creating more exposure to the dangerous areas.

Wikipedia (List of Coalition aircraft losses in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coalition_aircraft_losses_in_Afghanistan)) lists about 42 coalition helicopters incidents in Afghanistan since 2001. Only 8 of those are confirmed hostile fire cases, and the majority of the rest are brownout cases in take-off or landing incidents. All of the hostile fire cases also occurred either on the ground or at low altitude.

Clearly, installing equipment, armour, DAS or whatever, that forces a helicopter to make more trips, to carry out more landings and to make more fuel stops, puts that helicopter in more danger than if it was less exposed in those vulnerable stages of flight.

During World War Two, there was a discussion between those who favoured large formations which were better protected from German defences, and those who agreed but thought these large formations increased the chances of mid-air collisions. Those that favoured the large formations claimed there would only be one mid-air collision per sortie on average and that this was largely offset by the larger number of aircraft that would be saved from German defences. Experience proved them right. So they willingly accepted the collisions as the lesser of two evils.

So now, helicopter pilots must ask themselves: do you want the armour (and DAS) and have to make two sorties (or an extra fuel stop), or would you rather go without armour (and or DAS) and only make one sortie (or no fuel stop)?

[scientia in alto]

Khandahar Density Altitude circa 7500 at the surface... speaks for itself to an aviator thinking payload.

SIA

[Data-Lynx]

AA. Be kind. When you've been a shop steward at Jaguar in Coventry for as long as he has, you'd know about family cars. As for helos, he has probablly recognised that they are out of warranty and he is a bit stuck.

[brandnew]

From the charming Mr Wizard. Brandnew, I take it you voiced all of your own (and not anyone elses) thoughts to the appropriate people and chain of command at the time? Or did you think putting them all down on a public forum for the world to see was the most helpful thing you could do given the current climate? Well done. Oh and there are many factual errors in your post too, so well done again.
Wow, got back to my laptop after work and there you are: Mr Wizard, that only took you 0:45 to respond. I'm very impressed!

I did indeed voice my opinions and concerns on what I saw as ineffective leadership in the Merlin Force, combined with arrogant and ocassionally ineffective aircrew. So did many others, including some in the wider RAF SH Force! I think it was listened to: how's the career of the ex-OC 28 (AC) Sqn going?

Someone PM'd me to say that the leadership of the Merlin Force, and indeed RAF Benson, has changed recently. Apparently some people from the single digit Chinook Sqn have been brought in to try and drag the level of the Merlin Force up to an acceptable standard to deploy on HERRICK. If so, then fantastic, a good proactive change that was well timed.

Mr Freaky Wizard, the reason that you don't like me posting my thoughts is that they are a bit too close to home, and I afraid that you know that! Unless you're blind and/or stupid. But, if you disagree, then please highlight my "factual errors" either publically, or via PM, and we can see what falls out of the debate. Unless you're lacking the vitals.... always a possibility with aircrew from the three engined white elephant!

Just to finish, I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall for THIS conversation:

JHC: "Hello, JHC, world's premier e-mail forwarding headquarters."

Our Fearless Leader Bob A: "Ah. 'ello. I want some more of them 'elicopters to go to Afghanistan."

JHC: "Bit sticky I'm afraid. None available."

Bob: "Oh. 'ow about them shiny expensive Merlin 'elicopters. They've all left Iraq. Why can't we use 'em."

JHC: "They're all in Las Vegas and the pilots are on the piss in the MGM Grand."

Bob: "WHAT?"

JHC: "Ooops. Sorry. They're "hard at work" in El Centro."

Bob: "What are they doing there?"

JHC: "No-one knows. Essential training apparently."

Bob: "Why can't they do that somewhere closer to home?"

JHC: "No-one knows. They just seem to have gone 3000 miles further away from Afghanistan to arse about in the wrong desert."

Bob: "Which army unit are these support helicopters supporting?

JHC: "Not sure, let's have a look. Umm.... err..... Ah, no-one."

Bob: "NO-ONE?"

JHC: "Yup, looks like it. No ground troops at all involved in this exercise."

Bob: "*%***%%"

Click. Brrrrrrr...

Fly safe!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

12 years since I left the SH Force where I worked with some outstanding folk but if brandnew is indicative of todays crop then I am rather glad I am out of, willy waving t0sser :ugh:

[brandnew]

Mr Freaky Wizard- yet again, if antyhing I've said is factually incorrect then please let me know, either publically, or via PM. I am more than willing to discuss anything that I have said/observed. What you don't like is a little bit of truth. How about keeping quiet and trying to learn, before HERRICK gives you all a nasty shock.

MGD. I'm a serving AAC pilot, rank irrelevant. Over 10 years in uniform, with +1000 hours on Lynx and another +750 on another AAC type. I've served on TELIC with the Merlin force on two occasions. I've also served with other SH types, including Chinook, in a number of other theatres. No more details, as I'm sure you'll understand.

No axe to grind, just genuine confusion as to why the Merlin Force have ignored all advice from JHC and in particular the Chinook Force, and have ended up 3000 or so miles in the wrong direction. Very difficult to defend, especially today's environment.

I have no doubt that the indviduals in the Merlin Force will step up to the plate when the time comes, I just disagree with their current ethos and am perplexed by their choice of PDT!

Fly safe!

[airborne_artist]

The Wokka Mk3 probs/ Merlin armour/DAS problem is a red herring - our SH problems rocky side are down to a lack of...
.
.
.
.
.
.
parking spaces - it must be true, a senior officer said so (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/6012118/Too-little-parking-to-boost-Afghanistan-helicopter-numbers.html) (in The Telegraph, no less)

"Britain can only send a limited number of helicopters to Afghanistan because of a shortage of “parking” spaces, Air Cdr Simon Falla, a senior officer, has disclosed."

Hasn't he heard of parking wardens? :E

I think I've heard it all now :ugh:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

AA,

Sadly I think there is more truth than mirth in that story, pan space is always at a premium out there :sad:

[163627]

As a simple soul who only rides in the back but reads this forum with great interest (and to help decide on amount of life insurance needed) this is my first and likely only post. Can any of you genuine experts out there comment on Air Cdre Falla's quoted comments in both the Times and Telegraph today re i) We cannot significantly increase the number of helicopters in Afghanistan as there's no hard-standing for them. ii) Each operational helicopter needs five crews to operate safely. As an educated layman this seems not be the outlook of an organisation at war!

[airborne_artist]

SFP - I'm sure you are right, but has the Air Cdre thought through how that will play with the Great British Public?

They've been told that Our Boys are getting limbs blown off because they have to use wheeled transport, and that we don't have enough SH in theatre, but now out comes a top-brass type who says that we can't put much/any more there because there's not enough concrete.

It's Camp Bastion we are talking about, not the flight deck of HMS Illustrious - you need more, you build more, they will rightly think.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Not saying it's right, in fact far from it but from my limited experience out there parking is always an issue :(

[gayn kakken ofn yam]

It's Camp Bastion we are talking about, not the flight deck of HMS Illustrious - you need more, you build more, they will rightly think.I take it from your comments AA, that you have recent operational experience in this theatre and are up to speed with the facilities and what is available at Bastion?

[airborne_artist]

ii) Each operational helicopter needs five crews to operate safely.

By the time you take into account leave, training, sickness and hours on duty/standby in theatre, yes.

[airborne_artist]

I take it from your comments AA, that you have recent operational experience in this theatreNo, not at all, I'm representing the thoughts of Joe and Josephine Public, who've seen aerial shots of Bastion in the middle of a huge plain/desert, with more space than you can imagine for facilities. Not that all the space now needed was planned for when it was laid out and built, but acres are not in short supply.

I have mates who have completed their third tour in Afg, so I'm not wholly out of touch.

[gayn kakken ofn yam]

I'm representing the thoughts of Joe and Josephine PublicReally? What expertise in this field do you have that makes you able to represent the general public? Afghan or Iraq ops? Desert warfare and operating helicopters in these hot and high conditions?

I have mates who have completed their third tour in Afg, so I'm not wholly out of touch.

I beg to differ. You obviously were never in touch with what is going on out there. You cannot claim to be our representative just because you know somebody who has been there. It's like giving me advice on how good Disney Land is, just because you know somebody who has been there. Utter tosh. You do not represent me or any other member of the public on this matter. Unfortunately the present Defence Minister and his cronies represent the general public, be it wrong or right.

[ninja-lewis]

Really? What expertise in this field do you have that makes you able to represent the general public? Afghan or Iraq ops? Desert warfare and operating helicopters in these hot and high conditions?AA's not posting what he thinks, he's posting what the public will think when they hear this.

The general public have none of this expertise nor an understanding of the complexity of operating in this environment. What they do have is reports of officers and politicians on one hand saying "we can't do this", and, on the other, shots of the space in and around Camp Bastion. So they're bound to ask why the problem cannot be overcome and more helicopters sent out immediately since of course they're not aware of all the other factors.

It's more a failure of education and PR on behalf of the MoD/RAF to explain the issues properly and a failure of the media to responsibly report the facts, which I believe that was AA's ultimate point.

[Jackonicko]

"I'm a serving AAC pilot, rank irrelevant. Over 10 years in uniform, with +1000 hours on Lynx and another +750 on another AAC type."

That entitles you to my respect, admiration and thanks. I acknowledge that. You have all three.

"Apparently some people from the single digit Chinook Sqn have been brought in to try and drag the level of the Merlin Force up to an acceptable standard to deploy on HERRICK."

Saying that at all makes me question your judgement, and I'm sorry to say that your saying it on a public bulletin board makes you look like a bit of a co.ck.

[gayn kakken ofn yam]

AA's not posting what he thinks

Quite correct. He is the general public's chosen and duly elected representative on this important matter. Look he said so himself..........

I'm representing the thoughts of Joe and Josephine Public

I guess he has a handle on how the British General public think.

The general public have none of this expertise nor an understanding of the complexity of operating in this environment.

And nor does he. He has a mate who has been there though, so I guess that makes him an expert.



Saying that at all makes me question your judgement

Are you another military expert Jackonicko? What are your credentials that make you question a military pilot with experience in these theatres of war?

This forum appears to have its fair share of armchair experts. Have any of you actually been there, or actually have experience in the field of logistics and military operations? Its like watching sky news after a disaster when all of the so called experts come on to the foister their opinions on us.

[gayn kakken ofn yam]

Saying that at all makes me question your judgement

Can I ask what relevant military experience you have that makes you qualified to question his judgement?

[Jackonicko]

Of course you may.

None.

However, I have been lucky enough to fly with the SH force in the past, and know a number of Merlin air and ground crew, who have always struck me as being an exceptional bunch of people. And once the inter-fleet banter dissipates, people I know on the Chinook and Puma whose opinions I respect share a similarly high opinion of 28 and 78.

The idea that No.7 Squadron was needed to "drag the level of the Merlin Force up to an acceptable standard" (and those were the exact words used) is offensive nonsense, so that's why I question Brandnew's judgement.

Now, since you clearly endorse what Brandnew alleges, perhaps you'd justify that accusation, and give details of what makes you qualified to reach such a conclusion.

No?

[DuckDodgers]

One has to remember that DJtCap in Main Building had to sign off on the Merlin Force conducting a 're-set', so in the eyes of defence it was seen as a pre-requisite. The majority view within HQ JHC at the shop floor level was that this was a barking idea (across all 3 services) and that the Merlin force could attain the required hot, high and heavy training as part of extant exercises that may happen to have incorporated some ground manouevere elements.

[brandnew]

Duck Dodgers = a man that speaks sense!

This "Merlin Force re-set / holiday in Las Vegas" is looking very difficult to defend. It is a luxury at a time when we cannot afford luxurys.

The Merlin Force would, in my opinion, be better served by attending the Exercises that the SME's (in this case the Chinook Force) attend. If Morroco is good enough for them, then why not go along and listen. Perhaps you will learn something. Better still, find an Exercise that involves soldiers (they're the blokes in green or sandy clothes that sometimes climb into the back of your aircraft. i.e. the reason you exist) The best solution is to attend one of the many pre-HERRICK MRX's. They're run fairly regulary. If you need directions, ask Odiham.

Wizard Freak, have you deleted your posts and run off squealing into the sunset? No need really as I've quoted your Post 60 in my Post 68! I've also invited you, on two seperate occasions, to correct my "factual errors". You haven't. Is it painful being told something that is true but you don't like to hear?

From what I have seen, the Merlin Force, in keeping with the rest of the SH Force, do an excellent job. However, they have not listened to the advice from those who have operated on HERRICK. This would have made the tranisition between the two theatres a whole lot easier.

ET / EQ can be done in Morroco.

Disimilar formation / SH escort training can be done in the UK.

Deconfliction training with AH fires and other airspace users can be done on MRX's or on a birdtable / CAST / Simulator.

This can be followed by Exercises in Morroco or Kenya, working with land manoeuvre units, via an Ops Room, on a live exercise. Everyone wins. None of this requires poking off to the US to swan around on your own supporting no-one!

In fact, the Merlin Force have problems listening to advice from anyone! I watched a Lynx WO2 trying to explain ECCA / CIFS drills to a Merlin pilot. The three engined freak driver stopped him halfway through and said "We can put 5 guns on our A/C. We're the experts at this. I'll send my crewman round to talk you through it." He then walked off leaving the WO2 speechless! This was a righly regarded WO2 QHI who had returned fire on numerous occasions, both on TELIC and HERRICK. Bear in mind that during the Merlin Force's 4 year stint in Iraq, they failed to return fire on a single occasion. Apart from the numerous ND's not a shot fired in anger. Not even one!

Think that might change on HERRICK boys?

[KarlADrage]

A colleague and myself visited the Merlin Force at RAF Benson last week and while I wouldn't normally plug a piece of ours so openly here, I believe this one might actually provide a response (through quotes from the Merlin Force itself) to some of what is being posted here.

Global Aviation Resource (http://www.globalaviationresource.com/reports/2009/merlinforcep1.php)

As you will see, the Merlin Force WAS involved with exercises in Morocco, and while it doesn't feature in the script here, I can assure you that they were involved with the most recent MRX too...

[bast0n]

Seldomfitforpurpose

12 years since I left the SH Force where I worked with some outstanding folk but if brandnew is indicative of todays crop then I am rather glad I am out of, willy waving t0sser

I see that your offensive remarks have arrived here. A similar performance that you have on the Chinook thread. I suggest you retire there with all your open minded fellow travellers.......then I am rather glad I am out of,I assume you meant to add "it". I think we are glad also:ok:

Brandnew - well done mate - a few home truths never hurt anyone!:)

[cheesedoff]

How about we just let them get on with their job and wish them luck?

Good luck

[TheWizard]

The Merlin Force would, in my opinion, be better served by attending the Exercises that the SME's (in this case the Chinook Force) attend. If Morroco is good enough for them, then why not go along and listen. Perhaps you will learn something. Better still, find an Exercise that involves soldiers (they're the blokes in green or sandy clothes that sometimes climb into the back of your aircraft. i.e. the reason you exist) The best solution is to attend one of the many pre-HERRICK MRX's. They're run fairly regulary. If you need directions, ask Odiham.

Perhaps if you had any idea what you were talking about you would know that once again you are spouting utter drivel. Where were you on the last MRX then?

You come across as such as a petulant, willy wavy and childish individual. Throw what ever immature and pathetic insults around that you wish. Not bad for a commissioned officer in the British Army. Sandhurst would be proud.

have you deleted your posts and run off squealing into the sunset?
It wasn't for your benefit, it was because this whole thread has just descended into a farce and I am sure your C of C and JHC are delighted that so much laundry is being washed in public.

In fact, the Merlin Force have problems listening to advice from anyone!

Oh dear, knowing now what you do and where you come from that is priceless!!

Over 10 years in uniform, with +1000 hours on Lynx and another +750 on another AAC type.

Well done you. Double the years served and multiply the hours by a lot more and then maybe, just maybe, I will listen to your patronising cr@p. (see, willy waving is easy on the internet)

If it really bothers you that much, drop down to Benson and voice your concerns to the Station Commander.

In the meantime, we will get on with working with the AAC....in America :eek:

p.s Have the last word if you wish. I am out of here.

[Yeoman_dai]

I thnk we have a winner for the title 'Most pointless, awful, childish, argumentative Thread EVER' - maybe it was banter at the start but wha a nose dive...


Good luck to the Merlin Crews.

[brandnew]

I was indeed on the last MRX. I've also have a scan through some of the initial PXR notes. Not very complimentary to the Merlin Force at all. A bit embarassing, especially seeing as who was playing Comd JHF(A) .... whoops!

Commuting down from Benson on a daily basis. Refusing to take part in any Mission Analysis / ROC drills. By the way, there were very many MRX's beforehand that passed straight by the Merlin Force. We finally managed to get the freaks to go to one, and they barely attended!

I didn't go myself, but I know that the IPC and FPC lacked, how should I say, suitable attandance from the Merlin Force. Chinook, Apache, Lynx and Sea King all managed to front up, in case you were wondering.

There's no harm in stating my observations. Mr Wizard Freak just doesn't like hearing them. Don't worry, people far more important than little old me have spoken to the Stn Comd of RAF Benson about the woeful performance of the Merlin Force.

Take my +2000 hours and times by five. Wow: 10,000. Do the Merlin Force only listen to people with +10,000 hours? Has anyone in the Merlin Force have +10,000. I know a two Lynx pilots (albeit QHI's) that do. Would you listen to them? They've even been to Afghanistan. Repeatedly.

I have no axe to grind, and am pleased that we will (at long last) reinforce the lift capability of JHF(A). I just don't think that the Merlin Force are going about their preperations in a suitable or justifiable way. Having experienced both Iraq and Afghan, I can state with some authority that HERRICK is a real step up. It is essential that aircrew understand the battlespace within which they operate. It is essential that aircrew understand the Higher Comd's Intent and Scheme of Manoeuvre. It is essential that aviation seamlessly blends with other Land Components. I don't think that you can achieve any of this lying on a sun lounger in Las Vegas, wasting taxpayers money and time, some 3000 odd miles away from the shooting war.

Fly safe!

[Compressorstall]

Brandnew

You are obviously in an appointment with not much to do other than clog the internet, and I hope that you are not doing this through the IGS.

Your comments on the Merlin are unhelpful and demonstrate the small-minded, blinkered approach that stifles Jointery and advancement. I cannot be bothered to plough through this whole thread, but what comes across is someone who should not be in a position that requires the Joint approach and whilst you may have been to Iraq and Afghan, you obviously didn't learn much.

Yes, Op HERRICK is a step-change from Op TELIC and perhaps the Merlin Force needs the opportunity to build on the experience gained in Op TELIC which has occupied the majority of the capacity of the small and still very new Force. There are also a lot of young crews who sometimes might make comments that belie their youth, but surely you made some crass comments when you were starting out too.

These forums are read by some who would like to create the lurid tabloid headlines that sell papers, not necessarily tell the truth, and you are fuelling the paper sellers, not the news-makers.

The Merlin Force are preparing well for their next deployment and not lounging round, far from it. Stop speculating about what you don't know and keep your inflammatory, negative and ill-informed comments to yourself. Or have the courage of your convictions and visit the Squadrons and give them a brief, I'm confident they have the humility and sense of foregiveness to listen to you.

This thread is nothing more than malicious crew-room gossip. I have always respected the AAC and you are doing your cap badge no favours, so I suggest you stop now.

Regards

CS

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

The main thrust of the angst here appears to be some, if not a lot, of resentment over the Merlin folk going to El Centro.

I happily stand to be corrected but have they not been quite busy in the desert for the last few years? I am not sure how many times they have had a gucci deployment along the lines of El Centro, been there several times now and great it ain't, but surely they are allowed one decent trip to compensate for all the time away on Op's.

It's my humble opinion that rather than criticise the Merlin management for having the spuds to get this thing done those with a slightly green tinge should be asking their own chain of command as to why they cant have at least one decent deployment every now and again.

This sort of thing is not unique to the Merlin as pretty much every other type in the RAF inventory deploys in this manner every year, except of course for the SH force which has a great tradition of doing it on the cheap.

I applaud the Merlin hierarchy for having the balls and the gumption to combine some excellent training opportunities with the chance to reward folks hard efforts on Op's in this manner and if one or two on here had Commanders with a little more imagination more of the same could happen across the JHF.

Oh and bast0n, stop being such a civvy bed wetting girl and get over yourself :p

[bast0n]

Seldom fit for purpose

How amazingly apt that name is turning out to be on so many threads!

Oh and bast0n, stop being such a civvy bed wetting girl and get over yourself

Oh I'm a civvy am I?:ok:

It is clear that always being in the back clouds ones view somewhat! It is also so nice to see a chap at last showing his true colours and background by his amazing lack of manners and inadequate descriptive powers!

Pip Pip:)

[Minorite invisible]

I am amazed how intolerant the military types are about any form of criticism. I am surprised this guy was not kicked out of Pprune for violating some obscure regulation, like was done to me when I suggested on this forum that the requirement by certain countries to have DAS fitted on all troop transport aircraft deployed to Afghanistan was more of a measure to keep an Air Force monopoly on Air Transport rather than a valid security measure based on any kind of real missile threat.

I am a civilian. That is my opinion. It is based on Web based reports that I read and that are openly available on the Web and published by many respected organizations, including IALPA and the FAA. Yet I was kicked out and banned for violating some sort of National Security regulation and my posts were deleted.

You guys sound like the Jewish lobby, whose attitude is that Israel can do no wrong and that anyone who criticizes Israel is anti-semitic or pro-terrorist and that any Jewish person who dares criticism of Israel is a self-hating Jew.

Criticism is constructive and must be accepted. No one is perfect and everyone errs in both action and policy. That includes Israel and the UK military. When an aircraft crashes, the accident report is published and blame is put where it belongs. When the military blunders, it conveniently hides behind the need for secrecy, a requirement which is too often brought up needlessly.

You guys wouldn't even be having this thread if the subject hadn't made the papers. It would be "Top Secret". There are more posts here attacking other posters than discussing the issue. That is what brings the level of discussion to the level it has come down to.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Seldom fit for purpose

How amazingly apt that name is turning out to be on so many threads!



Oh I'm a civvy am I?:ok:

It is clear that always being in the back clouds ones view somewhat! It is also so nice to see a chap at last showing his true colours and background by his amazing lack of manners and inadequate descriptive powers!

Pip Pip:)

My god, a stalker :eek:

[Compressorstall]

This thread is in danger of becoming excrutiatingly painful. Opinion should be differentiated from constructive criticism where the criticism is informed and used to develop and amend a process. This has been allowed to devolve into a polarised slnging match by some who have an axe to grind with the Merlin Force.

Gentlemen, live with it. The Merlin Force has deployed to the US to get ready for Op HERRICK. There are many on here who do fly as military aviators, but squadrons are awash with Junior Officers and SNCOs who can do the job better than their Bosses - they allege. That is banter for the crew-room.

The overall aim is to deliver capability to Op HERRICK. The guys on the ground would be appalled to see what prurient children aircrew become.

As for some of the comments, particularly on MRX and PXRs from Brandnew, they are unhelpful and factually inaccurate given from a very biased point of view.

Stop fuelling the tabloids rabid needs for headlines and get back to talking about aviation.

Honestly.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Nice post Compressor :ok:

[bast0n]

Seldom fit for purpose

My god, a stalker

No - a rational, unemotional and POLITE aviator who despises ignorant rant and cheap insults. Please go home.....I am surprised the Mods have not sent you a ticket............

Compressor stall you are right to try to drag this back on track but it is interesting to get the current Pongo view even if you personally do not like it. It drives discussion along quite nicely and I do not believe any of the above denudes national security.

[brandnew]

Wow. A bit of criticism, and people really start squealing!

Just because a little bit of truth can sting, doesn't mean you should hold back from being honest. I am equally as critical about my own service and A/C types when they don't cut the mustard. I was equally scathing of a certain Lynx Sqn a few months ago. They to advice from a variety of sources and got a lot better.

Before Compressorstall has a heart attack about IGS, I am at home lolling around on POTL, waiting for my car to be fixed. Eating toast. In my kitchen. In Shepherd's Bush. Happy?

The sad truth is that the Merlin Force have an great A/C, but only perform to an adequate standard. They caused me and many others scores of problems on TELIC because of their arrogance and lack of professionalism.

"The overall aim is to deliver capability to Op HERRICK". I could not agree more. If that were the case, then the Merlin Force should try attending some of the conferences and meetings about Op HERRICK. It would be a start. One thing I have learned from the last decade is that military aviation is a constant learning process. I contstantly cavass other Squadrons, Regiments, Flights, Brigades, Services, Countries and the civilian world for advice. Not listening and being blindly arrogant, while having your rather good A/C bail you out of self made poo-traps is hardly the way ahead!

With regards to MRX's and PXR's, I'll think you'll find that my comments were fairly representative. Nil or noddy attendance at many planning conferences. Poor performance on the Ex (and seriously embarrassing CO JHF(A) to be). The only time they got excited was when flying journalists. Nothing funnier that watching a 17 stone obese crewman wheezing up the ramp, spinning dales of daring do to fleet streets finest.

Anyway, I hope that the Merlin aircrew enjoy their break in the sun!

Like I said earler, see you all next year in Bastion again. We'll see how they get on.

Fly safe!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Seldom fit for purpose



No - a rational, unemotional and POLITE aviator who despises ignorant rant and cheap insults. Please go home.....I am surprised the Mods have not sent you a ticket............



Bas oh Bas, go check post #87, the irony................I am just luvin the irony :rolleyes:

[ReachForTheStars]

Blimey....

What started as a light-hearted prod at the Merlin boys/girls to stop dragging their heels and come and help in the sand dunes of AFG has now descended into in-fighting between the RAF and AAC - who'd have thought it!!

Meanwhile the trusty old King keeps plodding along....

It's true though, there was NO Merlin involvement with the last MRX FPC - and no-one was surprised when they didn't show up.

Stand back.......

[Yeoman_dai]

Not getting involved, I have none of the experience necessary..

But Brandnew, I don't believe its what you are saying, rather how you are putting it across. Just a thought.


Also, I really really hope a Journo doesn't come across this thread after what SEVERAL people have written. Talk about taking dirty laundry and letting everyone see.

[hoodie]

...lying on a sun lounger in Las Vegas...

It may be a minor point, bn, but that's at least the second time you've referred to the City of Sin in this thread.

You don't know where El Centro is, do you?

It's a long way (in both nautical miles and content) from the fleshpots you think are being enjoyed.

[knocker88]

I was on the last MRX. 2 Merlin Aircraft flew with us in formation. As with all MRXs problems do arise when you let the AH take a lead on a troop insert.

All the lads I spoke too seemed up for the 'Stan. I'm not sure what job they will do but thats another thread! They won't replace the mighty Chinny but thats life and I guess we pull out 2020?

As for El Centro - fair one, not really a good idea tho when Helicopters are in the news 24/7. They did come out to North Africa (Near Gib) and they seemed to take notice of the way we did business - as per when they took over from us in Iraq.

Seems to me that people are only happy in slagging other types off without knowing the truth. Don't "freak" out, I'm sure the Merlin boys and girls will do ok........

[PPRuNe Pop]

Yep guys! You are losing your way. Snipes snides and mild abuse, which will lead to the heavy stuff, and no-one to calm it down.

Time to close the thread.