Gone is the glamour of an airline career...

[FlyBoyFryer]

The subject title says it all really.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8186690.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8186690.stm)

At least I can honestly say that I've never been misguided enough to think it's a life of trolley dolleys, fancy hotels and exotic locations - not in THIS lifetime at least!

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that articles such as the above are necessary as means of sifting the determined from the lazy. I’ll never forget the way an instructor I made friends with out in Long Beach, California, lamented some of his students coming from afar with $ signs in their eyes and grandiose dreams of living the life of Riley… simply because they had a piece of paper which allowed them to fly sky-chickens! :cool:


Read “Fate Is The Hunter” by Ernest K Gann – I’ve yet to come across a better book about the harsh realities of a career in aviation. The ending is both poignant and insightful.

[FlyBoyFryer]

Does BALPA count and are they capable of addressing the pervasive "pay-to-fly" culture... never mind the other pressing issues of pilot health, wealth and welfare? I think I know the answer already.

You're entirely right of course ScratchingTheSky. What I find bemusing about the medical industry is the fact there are little or no requirements for recency/proficiency checks in their industry, yet theirs is inherently one of the most responsible and critical.

Beginning to wonder if I should just declare bankruptcy and go bush flying out in Southern Africa... Wonder how my wife would view that suggestion?! :ouch:

[Poose]

Here, here, Scratchingthesky,

Hoping this recession will rejig the industry and kill the SSTR... Too much cheap money has been around in the past ten years...

I hope to one day see airlines paying for training from zero to hero, but I'd settle for seeing an end to the SSTR for now.

Clearly, I won't benefit from this but I can only hope that my successors will. :{


"A recession is where the wealth in a country shifts from those that don't know what they are doing, to those that do."

[YarreYarran]

I am seriously thinking about my CPL investments now...have i wasted my money ???

[powerstall]

Time passes and things change, airlines have to adapt to survive, add to that new competitors that are LCC's. ... let's just hope both legacy and low cost carriers can work in the same lines.... :ugh: and treat pilots the way they should be treated. :ok:

[Callsign Kilo]

I am seriously thinking about my CPL investments now...have i wasted my money ???

YarreYarran, the answer is dependant upon which 'school of thought' you reside within?

Look at Poose's comment and take heed...."A recession is where the wealth in a country shifts from those that don't know what they are doing, to those that do."

Are you going into this hell for leather, under a false assumption that a 250hr ATPL is a 'do not pass go' ticket to the right hand seat of an airliner? Do you believe that recession or no recession, you will be employed upon completion of your training? Do you think that the life of a pilot equals serious money, serious attention from the opposite sex, 5 star hotels, champagne and caviar? That the likes of BA, Luftansa, KLM and Air France will be champing at the bit to give you a job?

Alternatively you may be of the other 'school of thought.' If so, the very best of luck my friend. Enjoy your training and continue to relish every moment that you take to the skies. Your path to the airlines looks like it will be a tough and lengthy route. But you already knew that of course.

[Bla Bla Bla]

I have to agree with callsign kilo, its all about your attitude and what you think will come from your training. When I trained I was surrounded by dreamers, gazing at airliners. I however gazed at the local bush C185's with mud all over them and got the job, some of those guys are still dreaming.

If you look at a flying career as a business, forget it but if its flying that you really really want then you will never be happy if you didn't get that cpl and give it ago.

[greggx101]

Back to the OPs external link - LA times had some great pics of this.

Audio slide show: Their home base is a parking space - Los Angeles Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lax-lot_ss,0,2362810.htmlstory)

[Aerouk]

FlyBoyFryer,

How can you expect BALPA to sort the "pay-to-fly" culture we're in if their bloody members (and potential members) keep paying to fly!

You can say goodbye to the glamorous airline days, people don't want to fly first/business class anymore they're too busy looking for 1p flights.

[TheBeak]

If you look at a flying career as a business, forget it

Then anyone with a billionth of a brain cell should forget it. However they don't, instead they treat the career as a hobby and thus have removed 99% of the benefits, pleasures and standards within this 'career'.


A definition of a career: a life-work chosen by a person to use personal talent, provide some service or goods, earn money, and contribute to society

[powerstall]

It's not all about the money. :E

[TheBeak]

profession has been turned into a http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif playground.

Hit the nail on the head.

I don't think I'll get in an airliner in about 10 years the way things are going, I shudder to think of some of the accidents and incidents that will occur if this industry continues on the path it is on.

[FlyBoyFryer]

AeroUK,

I agree with your sentiments re: BALPA, hence why I said, "...and are they capable of addressing... ".

Regardless, it seems we're in general agreement. It's a sad state of affairs and being caught between a rock (e.g. adopting the moralistic approach and refusing the SSTR route) and a hard place (being left behind by people who care little or nothing about personal debt levels nor the dangerous precendent they're setting by endorsing it) is gettin us all down.

It's a reality we have to square up to - I don't expect any breaks, it's up to us to make them happen.

I read somewhere once: There are people who make things happen, people who watch things happen... and people who wonder what the **** just happened!

Suffice it to say, I itend remaining in the first category (or is that class? :cool:).

[Bealzebub]

Rollercoasters ?
The glamour of an airline career?
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[Bucking Bronco]

Apart from Ryanair which other airlines expect SSTR?

Flyboyfryer,
See what you're saying wrt rock and hard place. However, extrapolate what the SSTR chap is doing. By being willing to undercut his fellow man he will be hired - should it not be based on skill, knowledge or any other laudible attributes? :confused: Instead it is effectively, I'll pay you to fly your planes, in fact I'll buy my own uniform and take packed lunches to work too. :yuk: Other airlines will see this and as a means of cost cutting consider introducing it into their airlines.

The end game is a "profession" where the Ts and Cs are so crap that it only attracts people with money and/or love to fly so much that they're willing to put up with it. Just because somebody has lots of money and/or really wants to do something means that they have the skill/attributes to do it.

Instead we should have the most capable and able people going into the profession and being rewarded commensurate to their responsibilities and on a par with other professions they could have chosen to go in to. Sponsored Cadet courses are the best means (from zero to hero as someone else said) - it's a totally level playing field. If everyone said enough, and no one applied to the airlines they'd have to start funding these again. :ok:

Cheers

BB

[FlyBoyFryer]

Instead we should have the most capable and able people going into the profession and being rewarded commensurate to their responsibilities and on a par with other professions they could have chosen to go in to. Sponsored Cadet courses are the best means (from zero to hero as someone else said) - it's a totally level playing field. If everyone said enough, and no one applied to the airlines they'd have to start funding these again. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Couldn't agree more. I think the onus is on both the airline industry and FTO's to discern good from bad practice (ito sustainability, long term growth and safety concerns) as well not accept every Tom, Dick and Harry's money simply because they're prepared to cut theirs and others throats in order to fly. I once came across a PPL student who, after more than 100 hours logged, still hadn't been put forward for the skills test. Needless to say the FTO was merrily depositing his cheques whilst continuing to fuel his ambitions to continue towards a CPL, ME and IR...

This is all idealistic of course. The simple economics of profit vs loss dictate a less scrupulous approach/business model.

Beazlebub - what a disturbing clip, funny though. Akin to V6G's comment on another thread about partly enjoying watch sheep blindly jumping off cliffs! Am I one of these zombies too, I wonder at times?! :ugh:

[Day_Dreamer]

BB

What utter :mad: you are spouting.

There will always be people out there willing to pay for a type rating.
I did it myself back in '83 on a C404 after 6 months unemployment, it was a job and after several years flying Jets it was all I could get.
There were many highly qualified pilots out there seeking too few jobs.

Boycotting SSTR's will not happen, its human nature to get that step ahead by whatever means.

Also what makes you think that you are any better or worse than a cadet pilot who has passed SSTR selection.
Recently I have seen many young men and women (With The Funds) who have gone for the SSTR selection and failed, the standard being higher than they expected.
Others have gone abroad for their SSTR only to find that the course provided a type rating and dependent upon the students performance in training a continuation to line training.

I have stated before that there are too many pilots out there with jaundiced views of the SSTR, many because they failed selection, others because they could not afford the training and resented those who could.

Life is not fair and the sooner that is understood the better this industry will become.

Postings like yours are useless to others as you only breed contempt and doubt upon the ability of SSTR students, an unfair assumption.

[Guttn]

Bottom line is that your integrety will only get you so far. In a perfect aviation world the airlines would be actively recruiting new pilots by going to the license office to get YOUR contact details:ok:. That would be the day huh? But for that to happen I think we would all have to move to another planet, and leave the backstabbers behind. := I`ve personally been very fortunate and never had to pay for training. I`ve probably sent out as many CVs as the next pilot, and got lucky through an aquintance who happened to be flying for a small cargo company, who happened to be looking for a couple of F/Os. Did my time there, which was worth while (or so I`m told by the Captains I now get to fly with:}), and hopefully will get to stay with my present company for many, many years (still a bit blue-eyed:E).

That being said, the market is a hostile place where you really have to fight for an interview. How do you get the edge on your competitors, and at the same time know that your competitors are your fellow aviators? Betwen the rock and a very hard place. And I guess that`s where one has to ask himself; what kind of integrity do I possess?

Just for the record, there is no difference in ability regarding SSTR and company sponsored TRs. You meet the same standards for your checkride.

[Reluctant737]

Some people are so melodramatic. There's a recession. We have one of 'em about once every seven years or so. Millions of people always lose jobs. Businesses always lose money. Get over it.

Everyone who wants to become a pilot (badly enough) and holds a valid medical will... eventually.

Fact. :ok:

[Bealzebub]

And it is not a fact! :ok: It is your opinion.

[FlyBoyFryer]

Indeed.

Mind you, has a glamourous career in aviation always been somewhat of a myth anyway? In the pioneer years it was dangerous, hard work coupled with a lonely lifestyle and beset by lack of knowledge in areas such as human factors and meteorology in particular. As time has gone by, commercial flight has become safer, more efficient/scientific and achievable to the average Joe. However, it still means large amounts of time away from home for pilots who often have no regular companion in their lives apart from their kit bag. Let's not talk about divorce rates or alcoholism...

Of course, pilots from British Airways, Emirates, Cathay and rest of the reputed top-notch airlines have always seemed to personify a cool, debonair vocation in which some handsome fella scoops a lovely lass at the end of a flight to somewhere exotic.

By all means correct me if I'm wrong here, but I still get the impression the industry is filled with age'ism, sex'ism and a bit of the "old boys club" thinking. Where's the glamour in that I ask? *crux of the matter* :=

Sorry to witter on about "Fate is the Hunter" but it really did open my eyes. Even though it was written decades ago, so many of the concerns it raised for the author then still apply today.

[Bucking Bronco]

Day_Dreamer

There will always be people out there willing to pay for a type rating...
Boycotting SSTR's will not happen, its human nature to get that step ahead by whatever means.

I agree, there will always be people that will do what they need to "get ahead" - in this case, offering themselves up as a cheaper option and effectively eliminate some of the competition.

A couple of points I was trying to make: i) that if people boycotted these airlines then the airlines would have to type rate its new entrant pilots; ii) you're far more likely to get the best guy/girl in the seat if you have an application process that is a true meritocracy, one that doesn't exclude those who cannot afford (or not prepared) to pay for their own type rating - that said, the best candidate may also be willing to SSTR.

Just because you felt the need to pay for your own type rating then you should be comfortable with your own decision. I am not questioning your abilities as a pilot, rather I question the effect of someone willing to pay for their own training and the downward pressure this has on the profession which has been suffering erosion of Ts and Cs for years.

Don't misunderstand me, I really like my job and I took a pay cut from my previous profession to do it - but there is a line in the sand, I have my price.

Also what makes you think that you are any better or worse than a cadet pilot who has passed SSTR selection.
I didn't say that.

Recently I have seen many young men and women (With The Funds) who have gone for the SSTR selection and failed, the standard being higher than they expected.
You said that.

What I'm about to say is going to get me shot down but here goes anyway... There are some pilots out there who shouldn't be entertaining any thoughts about flying commercially. I've met scores of people who were scratching about in GA asking me how to get their breakthrough, as they'd been really "unlucky". Having spoken to them and seen some of their flying - they should find a different career. Yet with enough money and tenacity they may end up flying a turbo prop - great until one day they're flying a plane full of passengers in testing conditions and everyone pays the price for the cheap pilot up the front.

My bottom line is that when a seat becomes available the pilot chosen should be the most able person to do the job; in order to achieve this, the application net should be cast as wide as possible. Skills alone should be the sole factor in deciding who flies my sorry arse about!

[Bucking Bronco]

Are you suggesting a commercial or other organisation would let someone sit on their flight deck without proper training?

No, they will have a type rating - otherwise they'd be breaking the law. There's a difference between a pilot that sails through his LST/LPC/OPC and one that struggles but still makes the grade. During a check the pilot can have any number of repeats at attempt one, fail up to 5 items at attempt one and still pass! Although TREs are acting on behalf of the CAA, I have heard of disparities with standards from one operator to the next.

So a pilot can bump scrape through his checks, having numerous repeats and retests and still keep their rating. The company for whatever reasons (poor management, costs etc) will keep the pilot on and then one day their skills are called into question and they fail. Unfortunately in the real world there is no reset button that allows you another shot.

[mutt]

Getting back to the topic....
Do you think that the life of a pilot equals serious money, serious attention from the opposite sex, 5 star hotels, champagne and caviar?
Yep, it does....... in some places, including the cavier...

Talking to a colleague, they are dispatched with FULL FIRST CLASS catering, noritake china, he was on his way to spend 5 days in a 5* hotel in Bangkok.. .... and he flies a cargo aircraft! So the dream still exists, you just need to know where to look!

Mutt