BAS AIR... Would u drop your life savings off to them?

[RyanSydney]

Hey all.

After months of research and hard savings (more to come!) I am almost Ready to drop my life savings in search of a full time CPL 150hr course. I can only afford the basic single endorsement now but intend to gain this, go back to work next year, save a bit more and hit the multi and CI rating late next or early 2011, and hopefully be searching high and low for a industry job (economy permitting or course!)

I have found a well priced course that offers what i want at BAS air in cessnock. I am from sydney and know some ppl near by in which i can crash for the duartion of the course, and be 100% focused on it and nothign else! (They allocate 42 weeks weather permitting)

i would love to hear from anyone who has trained with BAS air cessnock or bankstown and their feed back?

im going to head up there in the coming weeks for a flight with an instructor and to check the place out.

Cheers
Ryan :)

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Rule 1. Do not pay a flying school any money in advance.

Rule 2. Go and have a few flights with them to see if they are as good as they say and always refer to Rule 1.

[Ultralights]

Never pay for flying up front.

there are many good reasons why this keeps getting said over and over again.

[D-J]

Having spent a lot of time in the air around Cessnock & their students/instructors :oh:

personally I would recommend considering other schools............................

[ozangel]

Ryan -

Personal experience - I would not give Basair my money.

Check out last weeks Four Corners about international aviation students - although the piece centres on international students, I had a good laugh with my other half about how little has changed since my experiences of the 'sausage factory flying schools' - sadly they're all as bad as each other (and I was a local student!).

Fradulent con artist operators
Aircraft older than your parents.
Constant attempts to rip you off
Inexperienced and EVEN UN-QUALIFIED FLYING INSTRUCTORS parading as top guns.

The list goes on - the link is here:

Four Corners - 27/07/2009: Holy Cash Cows (http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2009/s2637255.htm)

This is my favourite part:
'Go sit outside under a tree - we will come get you if a plane or instructor becomes available' (All that for only $5000 a month, whether you fly or not!)

Find a smaller operator where you are not competing with anyone for their time - where the only competition you'll experience will be the operator trying their hardest to keep you happy.

[triton140]

As the others said, never pay up front.

If they need the cash, and the banks (in their infinite wisdom) won't lend it to them, why should you?

[FourBalls]

Ryan,

If you have managed to save $50k (ish) you are obviously committed to the cause. Have you considered doing your licence part-time so you can remain in your current profession? The extra year or so won't make that much of a difference in the real scheme of things - especially given the current job market - which I doubt will change much over the next few years. Nothing worse than sitting around flying schools waiting waiting f'ing waiting while you could be out earning.

The extra cash will buy you plenty more options when the time comes to pack up and go bush with fresh cpl in hand.

Wish I'd done it that way. Just my 2c

[Mr. Hat]

As others have said do not pay anything upfront.

I know nothing of the school but I ask the following.

1. Is it a big school conected with a uni or foreign students? As in - is it a sausage factory?

If so I think you should consider a smaller school. Why? Because the uni and foreign students will take precedence over you. You will be just another number in the sausage machine.

In my opinion the best thing for a newbie starting out is to go to a small town and find the charter company that does instructing. There is/was one in mudgee for example or one in goondowindi or one in karratha. These are not sausage factories these are places that have established charter and instructors. I cannot stress how important it is to find a place where you will get a teacher of aviation rather than someone who is just trying to get their hours up.

One last thing - make sure its written in your contract that you will have one instructor per phase (apart from occasional sickness of instructor). I experienced once at a sausage facotry a different instructor for about 10 flights in a row and let me tell you it costs you money when this happens. I left.

Good luck.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Never pay for more than one lesson at a time up front. And if you do that, do it with a credit card so it's not your money. If they offer a discount for up front it usually means they have exhausted all other means of credit.

I don't know the schools "over East" but as a general rule I've found that customer service is inversely proportional to the glossiness of the brochure. All that glitters is not gold!

Go somewhere where you are comfortable with the people you meet there.

And never ask to see a CFI without an appointment!

[Horatio Leafblower]

Mr Hat has the best advice here.

Although the school at Mudgee is now long gone (Mike is now a sim instructor for QF and commutes to work from Maroochydore or somewhere :rolleyes: ) the IS a flying school /charter outfit at Scone.

The CFI there is a great bloke :E

...oh and "Charlie Fox India" has some sage advice too - especially the bit about an appointment to see the CFI! (She's a great bloke too :ok: )

Our school operates on a hour-by-hour basis, although some students prefer to stump up $1,000 at a time and then fly it off. I can only imagine that having all your students money locked up would make you very lazy about retaining thir business :bored:

[training wheels]

If they offer a discount for up front it usually means they have exhausted all other means of credit.

I'm guessing that the discount some schools offer for upfront payment is from the interest they earn having your money in their bank accounts.

Anyway, as others have said, don't pay upfont ... pay as you go. It will make it easier for you to move to another school if you don't like it there.

[Mr. Hat]

I don't know the schools "over East" but as a general rule I've found that customer service is inversely proportional to the glossiness of the brochure. All that glitters is not gold!

Very true.

Mike a sim instructor? I Assume thats for the QF cadetship?

You need to hunt around a bit and find out who the instructors are. There are some experienced ga instructors that are absolute gold - Eglen was one (RIP) Chesterfield, Salmon, Dunbar. GA and Airline legends - if you can get taught by people like them or them then you will be ahead of me and the rest of us. The thing is if you've got it in you, you'll make it in the end. However getting taught by the right people makes life in GA alot easier. Training is important but your attitude is what will make the difference in the very long term.

I've heard some very good reports about Gil Llayts also - they've produced some of the best stick and rudder guys I've seen.

[RyanSydney]

wow,
some amazong advice so quickly.

I really appreciate it..

i under no circumstances ever would part with my cash up front! I am a hard worker dedicated to getting in the industry and have saved quite a substancial amount to fund my this endeavour. The payment scheme is 20% upfront and 10 payments monthly of a total course fee, which i thought gave me some security.

The reason i am wanting to do the course in the 150hr format is both to save the extra 50 hours required for a CPL when flying casually and i also want to be focused 100% on my study and skill gaining, hence, not be studying after 10 hours on the tools @ work and trying to squeeze a flight in on saturdays as the job im in now is on a fulltime or no time basis.. In other words im there 5-6days per week or not at all.. And also, i would prefer to learn with others as opposed to self study...

I really like the idea of smaller establishments like suggeted by a few ppl, (MrHat, what u said is coming across loud and clear!!) but i have come across none that will offer a 150hr course with a classroom type study.. They are mostly geared like a flying club, (similar to schofields @ bankstown) offering the sylabus pay as you go, self study type thing.. I wish there was a middle ground!

I'm still quite stuck on which path to take...

(i would address everyone personally but this post will get out of hand!):ok:

At the end of the day, the course i am looking at @BAS is a CPL single quite basic for around 40K, which is what i will have when looking to start late this yr early next..

This Type of money just doesn't cut it to get to CPL level when flying casually..

[D-J]

The reason i am wanting to do the course in the 150hr format is both to save the extra 50 hours required for a CPL
Keep in mind your not very likely to land a job with 150tt esp it these times

the extra 50hrs can go a long way toward improving you skills, NVFR CIR etc...

[Metro man]

Key words are "trust account". ie Your money is held by a third party such as a solicitor, who releases it to the school at regular stages as you complete your training. Fair to both sides. If the school goes bust your money is safe and on the other hand your financial status is in no doubt for a place on the course, or risking you doing a runner owing thousands. :ok:

[dhavillandpilot]

Having seen flying schools at BK over the last 40 years come and go i would NEVER NEVER give any of them any money upfront. The one exception is for ground tuition, and then only subject by subject.

It is not they are con artists, they are just not business people. You have to ask yourself how can a flying school make money let alone survive with the rates they charge for aircraft.

My guess is that a properly funded and run flying school would need to up the going rate by some 30% just to be commercially viable - hence old aircraft, young instructors (read little experience) and a general malise in the training industry.

Having said all that the earlier posts that recommend a smaller school are probably correct.

My suggestion would be to go and talk to Bill Whitworth at Whitworth Aviation. Bill was endorsed on a Fox Moth by my father in the early 1950's at the Royal Aero Club, Bill subsequently taught me how to fly when he was CFI at the NSW Royal Aero Club. I recently went back to renew a licence and found he had lost none of his edge or accume.

Go and talk to Bill or someone like Bill, who will give you a no nonsense response to how you could do the flying and actually achieve you goal.

All the best in an Industry that has some Ups and Downs, (excuse the pun)

[Mr. Hat]

So there you have it Ryan. A multitude of replies from all different walks of life and experience in the industry. Now its up to you to see if you can be objective, do the real research (not the glossy brochure type) and make a decision that will make the next 5 years a whole lot easier. If you make the less correct choice it won't be the end of the world nor your career it'll just make things a bit difficult at the start.

Just remember that humans instinctively seek out information that they want to see and ignore what they don't want to see when making decisions - from the human factors memory archive i think this one was called validation.

P.S. In your shoes I wouldn't worry about the savings you'll make on 50 hours if it means missing out on a good established, experienced instructor at a place that will know you by name and teach you how to fly as opposed to get you thru the test. Thats just my take on it.

Good luck.

[Cap'n Arrr]

- Most schools are approved to teach the 150 hour course, and it can be done part time or full time (does not have to be a VETAB course)

- Even if you do the 150 hour course at a smaller school part time, there is NOTHING to stop you from flying Monday to Friday, 9 - 5, but paying as you go. You are likely to get more attention than you would at a school with a lot of students going about it this way. (i.e. constantly the same instructor, and even maybe an instructor who is available almost as much as you!). It will not take any longer to do this way (in fact you will probably find it to be faster :ok:)

- A s/e CPL can cost as little as 25 - 35k (do your research, it is very likely it is more expensive, these numbers are from a few years ago) when done part - time (not an integrated course).

End result - get on to some of the smaller schools (depending on the area your in, but theres some at camden, scone, and plenty of other places. orange/dubbo/tamworth etc), make a list of potentials, go and visit them and see who fits the bill. If you go about it this way (pay as you go) you will also be able to change schools at any stage without having to worry about getting money back from the school! (Normally hard or impossible if your paying a full course fee upfront)

[The PM]

Cap'n Arrr.....

No flying school as such in Dubbo, there used to be 3.The aero club gets in a casual instructor every now and then.It just isn't a place with a great interest in aviation, apart from the lowest fare available on Qlink and Rex....

[RyanSydney]

Thanks so much everyone..

Through this post alone i have made several contacts within the industry already. Thanks to those who shared their opinions and experiences because every word really did count..

Now its really up to me.

Between now and christmas i will be lurking around a GA airport near you, scouring for the best way to get myself in that plane come January, for not only a fair price, but most importantly really, a good nut sitting next to me, who cares what im doing.

once again, thanks alot
and to the ppl who were great enough to suggest names and even numbers of those who they regard as an excellent instructor or establishment, my hat off to you.

NO DOUBT, we will meet again, most likely when i have my next stumbling block, lets hope its a block, and not a mountain!

cheers again

Ryan

[mingalababya]

Between now and christmas i will be lurking around a GA airport near you, scouring for the best way to get myself in that plane come January,

If I were you, I'd try and get some of the theory exams done and out of the way. Don't really know what's on the PPL syllabus these days .. did mine a long time ago, .. BAK, Met, Nav, and Air Law used to be it. You should be able to knock these off in 4 months.

[ciscodiscocisco]

mate how about you buy Flight Simulator X and get trained there much quicker and easier... heheh good luck

[Mr. Hat]

buy Flight Simulator X and get trained

Thats not a bad idea actually. I suggest FS9 or 10 as a supplement to your training. Practice before and after your training and you'll find you will pick things up pretty quickly. I've been using sims in one form or another for years and it makes life a lot easier come test time.

[PlankBlender]

mate how about you buy Flight Simulator X and get trained there much quicker and easier... heheh good luck

..and the next version apparently comes with an option to print out the RAA certificate after ten hours on the clock!

Sorry RAA folk, couldn't resist :}

[Mr. Hat]

Yeah i use/used it for IF stuff. Arcs intercepts IF orientation thats all.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Re: FS as a training aid

Cynical pilot is correct, to an extent... BUT...

...the advantage I find with some of my geek students is an improved ability to interpret the instruments. Once you specifically point out the pitfalls, they will often progress quicker because, unlike the non-geeks, they can look inside, get the information, and look outside again.

I often find older students, particularly, staring at the alti looking for hidden meaning or chasing the VSI. :ugh:

Maybe it's just that some people don't listen. :bored:

[Airess]

Ryan, great thread!

I am in the same situ as you, however i am looking to do my CPL part time whilst still working. I am going to self study for the exams and have a good mentor base of pilots to call on for help!

I have conflivting advice from numerous pilots and instructors:

*go for a school at bankstown if you have any aspirations of flying commercially, its good to be thrown into the deep end with air traffic, radio etc etc

*dont go for a school in bankstown, go out to a quieter airstrip where u can concentrate 100% on learning technique without the distraction of other aircraft radio etc. then move to a busier airport later during the CPL.

*dont go for Basair they have too many international students & are a 'sausage factory'

I wonder with the last comment if this also refers to HVA, which are the 'sister' school to Basair...im assuming if there are problems with Basair in BK there are bound to be problems with HVA. any comments anyone??

My other thought at the moment is going with Central coast air club at Warnervale. i will be going up to check out both facilities this weekend.

Its easy to get lost in all the info ive found and my haead is spinning from all the conflicting advice...

Did you have any luck choosing a flying school?

[PlankBlender]

I went from nothing to CPL in a little under 6 months whilst working permanent part time and flying to my home town on the Mid North Coast for up to a week at a time every month.

Wow, if that's actually the case then I'm genuinely impressed: More than one hour flying on average seven days a week plus perm. part time work plus revision for the CPL exams.. you're sure?

[VH-XXX]

Depends what you mean by "permanent part time" !

[Arnold E]

Ryan
Please, please, please dont put ANY money up front. Admittedly it was a long time ago, but I did all of my training pay as you go( PPL and CPL ), and I did it in the minimum time. I paid when I came BACK from my lesson. Admittedly again, I paid almost nothing for the theroy, it was done at TAFE in those days, but I can see no justification for paying for any service in advance. The time it takes will depend on you. It can be done in minimum time if you are dedicated and you have the right school.

[Metro man]

Did an ATP in the States and a year or two later the school went bust. I was alright, but those who had just arrived and handed over their cheques prior to it folding lost everything. Don't become an unsecured creditor waiting for a few cents on the dollar months or years in the future.

With the global financial crisis having hit aviation hard, quite a few training establishments will have found themselves on shaky ground financially. Especially those who expanded too fast during the boom times and now don't have the income to service their loans.

Never have more on deposit with a flying school than you are prepared to lose. $1500-2000 in the flying account, the rest in WESTPAC/CBA/ANZ where it is guaranteed. :ok:

[Arnold E]

Metro Man
I cant believe that there is anybody that is prepared to lose $1500-$2000. All I can say is you must have way too much money. Me, I'm prepared to lose nothing.
I repeat, put NO money up front. not $1500, not $15, not $1, capish?:rolleyes:

[Dutytimeexhausted]

No money up front.

Guarantee of aircraft types to be flown. (at basair as soon as "your type" is unservicable they will have you flying somethin else at your own retraining costs to keep you airbourne)

Your paying for the training. If your instructor is not up to scratch, demand a senior 3, or grade 2 instructor.

Classroom time shouldnt be a consideration. The bookwork isnt that hard and any god instructor should sit down one on one for any issues. These large schools will sit you down all day for self-study anyway.

Stay away from basair.

good luck

[A37575]

And never ask to see a CFI without an appointment!

Come of the grass Charlie Foxtrot etc If the CFI (you are presumably referring to yourself) is that remote as to demand students make a bloody appointment then steer clear of that operator. The flying school wants your money and it is your money that pays the CFI. CFI's may sport four gold bars, real dark sunnies over their head and a big watch and even bigger wings but deep down they are just humble folks - NOT.:=

[das Uber Soldat]

Please don't do that. The hardest people to teach are those who play flight simulator all the time because they will NOT look out of the window.


110% concur with this. Flight sim is probably the worst bad habit builder you can find.

[multime]

Pathetic thread.
Think you,ve answered your own stupid question.
Get rid of flight sims, fly real planes. Please.
Cheers
Multi:ok:

[madrace]

Hi Ryan

As someone mentioned previously its good to see that you've been given advice from seemingly various corners of the industry...and I would like to add my views simply because I am an ex student of BASAIR although it has been a quite a few years now.

I agree with the majority that you should not pay upfront....but I'm saying that because I'm a few years wiser now and not because I got ripped off.

I don't know what the situation is like there now but I must stand by the instructors I had at that time. Even tho I was in a class containing some international students I managed to complete my CPL and MECIR in ten months, abt 2 weeks behind the schedule which was very well laid out for the whole year. It was run by 2 instructors who were both well versed with our progress and for the Multi/Comnd Inst Rtng we had another dedicated instructor. I must say again that all three were very proffessional, helpful, knowledgeable and skilled and were not just trying to get me to pass.

Off course am pretty sure none of those instructors are working for Basair these days so once again I cannot say what its like now. Mind you it wasn't as big a flying school then as it apparently is nowadays. So all this is just what I personally went through and I'm not for a moment suggesting that you disregard all the others good advice and go to Basair. I think after all thats what this thread is about...

Mate I'd say keep up the real research and you'll find what you need :ok:

[youbuet]

I think the above replys paint a clear picture. Has anyone heard what is happening at Aerospace Aviation after the 4 corners show ?