Coober Pedy - "Cessna takes off without pilot"

[wish2bflying]

*sigh*

Anyone know any more about this?


Cessna takes off without pilot - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/04/2645510.htm)

Cessna takes off without pilot

A light aircraft has taken off at Coober Pedy in outback South Australia without the pilot.

The man was unable to start the Cessna from the cockpit, so got out to spin the propeller by hand.

When the plane started it became airborne without him and travelled about 300 metres before it crashed in a ditch and rolled over.

No-one was injured in the mishap but police say the plane is a write-off.

[chimbu warrior]

........further development of the Cessna UAV is continuing. :ok:

[The Green Goblin]

On a brighter note looks like there will be a job opening for a cessna driver :ok:

GFC?? What rubbish :E

[wish2bflying]

Now with a picture ...

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200908/r411368_1944378.jpg

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200908/r411368_1944378.jpg

[TonKat]

Seeing as this is not the first time something similar has occured (plenty of pictures on the web to testify) - it may be past time to address.

Once the art of hand starting was common practice - hands up who knows (through training) how this is done? This is something I have never done and don't think I would attempt without really understanding what I was doing - considering the consequences of an error.:eek:

Does the procedure of hand starting need to be part of the syllabus when learning to operate flying machines?

or:

Discourage the practice completely.

[ZappBrannigan]

Once the art of hand starting was common practice - hands up who knows (through training) how this is done?I know bugger all about hand starting - but I thought one of the golden, no-exceptions rules was that there was a second pilot in the aircraft sitting on the brakes during the procedure.

[The Green Goblin]

When I did my initial Grade 3 we were taught how to hand start the 152. Came in handy when I left the master on a couple of times on the trusty 520 (although much harder to start than the 152).

[greenslopes]

When doing something daft..........do it as slowly as possible! Thank goodness there was no loss of life(only loss of face).

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Pretty good effort to prop start a 206, IMHO ......... guess it was all down hill from there!

I learnt how to prop start DH82 and Austers (cause there is no other way to get those suckers to go) - but I carry an ext. power cable for the Bo!

Dr :8

[Frank Arouet]

The story of the runaway Auster.

And again I ask given today's terrorist intent on our Military establishments, would this be handled any differently today?

Link: Wagga's Auster (http://www.henkimaa.nu/mow/things/auster.html)

Was removed from D&G to Aviation History and nostalgia. It obviously still has merit in present day discussions.

[QF411]

Did he have a case of XXXX in the back?

[Unhinged]

You mean like this one that we've all seen before, of course: YouTube - XXXX beer - not for air version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Ir9pKL5zY&NR=1)

Although this one makes me laugh too, even if not aviation relevant: YouTube - XXXX (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cJY2zw6ogY)

[b_sta]

Automation these days huh? :}

[Hempy]

You mean like this one that we've all seen before, of course: YouTube - XXXX beer - not for air version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Ir9pKL5zY&NR=1)

Ha haven't seen that before

http://www.g3tsome.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rofl2.gif

[Tmbstory]

Frank Arouet:

Thank you for posting the story of Wagga's Auster. It is a good read and a good story.

Tmb

[YSMB]

So, if you want to evade the RAAF, fly an Auster.

It took the Autocar, a Wirraway, 2 Sea Furies, 2 Meteors, and 2 Sabres to bring it down! Wow. It was probably close to out of fuel after three hours...

[RadioSaigon]

Pretty good effort to prop start a 206...

Schmidt yeah -had to do it once (on a beach) -those 520's are cranky bitches to get going via the Armstrong Method! Best to let them get quite cold, if you can...

[The Green Goblin]

had to do it once (on a beach)

The sand dunes always worked for me :)

cranky bitches to get going via the Armstrong Method

I prefer my appendage but whatever makes her happy mate :ok:

Best to let them get quite cold, if you can...

Good excuse to put the arm around with a bit of chivalry ay? Good to see its not dead :)

Or did you mean a Beech? :cool:

[sms777]

Anyone try to attempt to hand start an aero engine with a three bladed prop sure have a death wish. That next blade comes around awfully quick when it fires.....
I swung a two bladed prop many times but always had someone sitting inside holding the brakes.
Some blokes have big balls alright....:)

[D-J]

Anyone try to attempt to hand start an aero engine with a three bladed prop sure have a death wish. That next blade comes around awfully quick when it fires.....
I swung a two bladed prop many times but always had someone sitting inside holding the brakes.
Some blokes have big balls alright....

520's hand start surprisingly easily when cold, just make sure you get outta the way of the 2 other blades! :ouch:

[RadioSaigon]

520's hand start surprisingly easily when cold...

Yup, they do. Knew a bloke a looong time ago that flattened a floatplane battery on a 206, using the HF whilst loading at a crayfish boat. Armstrong'd it, it started -and the (already set) rudder-trim and a tad too much throtle promptly swung it into the fishing boat it was alongside.

Fecked the aircraft and the skipper of the boat had a few choice words to say about the damage to his boat too. That operator didn't last long on floats, strangely...

[multime]

Plenty of flat ground to land on if you take out the white humps.
M:ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

Am too tired to post the whole story here now and have previously related the story elsewhere on another thread, but have successfully hand started 260hp and 235hp Lycomings with no-one else around on several occasions.

Secret to doing so without tears and/or drama is to do so with throttle fully closed. Of course, whether this technique works with fuel injected engines is unknown to me.:hmm:

Others more knowledgable than I will post, I'm sure.

[Natit]

Owen,

Certainly looks like JNW doesn't it. Wasn't that new charter outfit at PF using it a bit? Have seen it parked outside their joint on Kings Road as of late.

Either way.. ouch! :mad:

[TonKat]

video of correct procedure???? :uhoh:

Fun Games and Other Fun Stuff Blog Archive Hand Starting an Airplane - Don’t try this :-) (http://www.funrestarea.com/blog/index.php/2009/01/09/hand-starting-an-airplane-dont-try-this/)

[ZK-NSN]

Some blokes have big balls alright
Balls of steel, brains of custard.

[zube]

How many times has this happened. Is there anybody out there who still doesn't understand the concept?

Digressing slightly, they reckon Gough Whitlam's missus could kick start a 747 back in the 70's.

[notmyC150v2]

Just by lookin at it...:E:E

[Capt Peabody]

Perhaps it's time to shut down some rumours (although I don't blame anybody for speculating). As with a few of these incidents the PIC wasn't actually attempting to start the engine from what I understand. It sounds like a sad case of a grounded mag and some unfortunate throttle settings (which might explain the lack of chocks or tie-downs which permitted the thing to get away).:ouch:

[The Green Goblin]

Ever heard of a dead cut check before shutdown?

I used to do them religiously regardless of what the checklist said!

[Capt Peabody]

Dead cut checks certainly have some merit but many a LAME have advised otherwise. I'm no engineer so I'll leave it at this: I'll always do what the checklist/AFM and the owner (his/her aeroplane) say. But yes, a dead cut check may have saved this hull.

[jackson's_joyflights]

VH-JNW, I flew for a drop zone in VIC early last year. They owner thought the skydivers wern't treating it well...... How wrong he was to ship it up into the hands of that silly silly pilot.

[Arnold E]

Dead battery was my understanding.:eek:

[RadioSaigon]

Dead cut checks certainly have some merit but many a LAME have advised otherwise.

Really??? I'd be very interested in their reasoning for offering that advice.

I always conduct a dead-cut check immediately after engine-start on the 1st start of the day and again every time prior to shutting the engine down. How else are you to know whether or not you have a hot P-lead??? I couldn't tell you how many times I've discovered hot mags and other minor ignition issues doing this simple check. Conducted properly, it poses no threat at all to your engine(s). Mine are done at or very near to idle RPM.

The consequences of not doing a dead-cut and either yourself or someone else moving a propeller, deliberately or unintentionally, with a hot mag are horrifying.

No magneto is 'dead' until I have proven it dead. If I haven't personally proven a mag dead, then I will assume it to be live -and stay well away from the prop.

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Peabody
Dead cut checks certainly have some merit but many a LAME have advised otherwise.
Really??? I'd be very interested in their reasoning for offering that advice.

I always conduct a dead-cut check immediately after engine-start on the 1st start of the day and again every time prior to shutting the engine down. How else are you to know whether or not you have a hot P-lead??? I couldn't tell you how many times I've discovered hot mags and other minor ignition issues doing this simple check. Conducted properly, it poses no threat at all to your engine(s). Mine are done at or very near to idle RPM.

The consequences of not doing a dead-cut and either yourself or someone else moving a propeller, deliberately or unintentionally, with a hot mag are horrifying.

No magneto is 'dead' until I have proven it dead. If I haven't personally proven a mag dead, then I will assume it to be live -and stay well away from the prop

Some wise words there mate!

Yep I only ever did it at idle RPM just before I pulled the mixture on shutdown. I would also did it during my morning runup on the first flight of the day and I would always check the mags L/R just before takeoff with a quick TIMPFISH as I lined up to make sure I had everything working.

I discovered hot mags many times to which I would whack a post it note on the control column with "Live Mags" and also one on the propeller. I would then notify the CP/owner and write it up as a squawk or the MR if it were to be fixed immediately. Those post it notes also come in handy when you have VAC pump failures to put over the AI. You will get a few every thousand hours of driving pistons.

GG

[the wizard of auz]

I learned to Prop start on the DH82 and a sweet little 85 hp float plane. Since then I have had to start a whole myriad of aircraft by hand and have a procedure that works quite well. I have even taught a couple of guys to do it properly with very little risk involved. I did have a bit of a problem on my last ship though........... you can hand swing that PT6 all day and nothing happens. :E

[Capt Peabody]

Whoa whoa whoa, as I said they "certainly have some merit" and "a dead cut check may have saved this hull". Whilst we are talking about a C206 dead cut checks are just not required or advantageous in every scenario and they must be done with care (i.e. to protect the exhaust system, after ignition backfire I think it's called). The C206 has a rotary ignition so you can't check grounding using the normal mag check (think of systems like on the Navajo or Piper Cub) so yes a dead cut is the only way.

I probably made a bit of a blanket statement and I should not have said "many a LAME" but certainly I have had discussions with LAMEs about the risks to the exhaust vs the benefits gained.

I do conduct dead cuts on the Bonanza I fly as it's the only rotary style ignition plane in our particular fleet.

[A37575]

When I did my initial Grade 3 we were taught how to hand start the 152

Now that explains why CASA have a special team to test grade 3's for their instructors rating rather than have the local CFI do it. Where in the Cessna POH does it give instructions on how to hand start a Cessna. It doesn't and for a sound sensible reason. It is dangerous. The aircraft is designed with a starter motor. If the starter motor is inoperative or the battery is too weak to turn the prop over enough to get a start then defect it in the maintenance release (battery or starter or both depending).

It was only a couple of years ago a instructor with no sense and no experience attempted to hand start a 172 at Point Cook. Why? the battery was flat and in fact had been like that for several days. So the CFI "authorised" hand starting to save money and to keep the schedule running on time. The new instructor was struck by the propellor as he tried to hand start and was severely injured. If ever there was a instance where Flight Safety Australia journos could have made a valuable contribution to flight safety in general aviation, then this story of sheer risk taking idiocy was the perfect venue. But it was hushed up,.

[the wizard of auz]

The aircraft is designed with a starter motor. If the starter motor is inoperative or the battery is too weak to turn the prop over enough to get a start then defect it in the maintenance release (battery or starter or both depending).
Yup........... then sit around in the middle of the GAFA and wait for your local LAME to pop in and fix it. :hmm: get a grip buddy........... or even loosen it a little.
there are no instructions in the DH82 handbook either...... or several of the other aircraft I have flown without an electrical system. Hand starting aircraft has been around since the start of aviation, and if done correctly is no more dangerous than flying the aircraft. :rolleyes:

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
The aircraft is designed with a starter motor. If the starter motor is inoperative or the battery is too weak to turn the prop over enough to get a start then defect it in the maintenance release (battery or starter or both depending).
Yup........... then sit around in the middle of the GAFA and wait for your local LAME to pop in and fix it. get a grip buddy........... or even loosen it a little.
there are no instructions in the DH82 handbook either...... or several of the other aircraft I have flown without an electrical system. Hand starting aircraft has been around since the start of aviation, and if done correctly is no more dangerous than flying the aircraft.

Don't forget wiz you are responding to the new breed of instructor who has never seen the outside of a flying school.

Defecting the MR in the middle of bum **** no where with a flat battery is really the most stupid response I have heard in a while.

No phone reception, no food, limited water, 40 degree+ heat, I'm sure the boss and the punters are going to be reeeeeeal happy when you tell 'em (after SAR have been looking for you) that you can't fly because you endorsed the MR with a flat battery and need a jump.

Might work at a GAAP at a flying school, doesn't work in commercial aviation!

[SM227]

Would you guys who where taught the proper technique care to share it with us please. It would be a handy thing to know when stuck in the above situation!

[Brian Abraham]

The aircraft is designed with a starter motor. If the starter motor is inoperative or the battery is too weak to turn the prop over enough to get a start then defect it in the maintenance release (battery or starter or both depending).
Even the big radials (DC-3, DC-4 etc) came with procedures in the manuals, at least in the USAF, for hand propping in the event of being otherwise "stuck".

[The Green Goblin]

Would you guys who where taught the proper technique care to share it with us please. It would be a handy thing to know when stuck in the above situation!

Depends on the Aircraft.

In a Cessna I would firstly chock the pilot side wheel with rocks, wood etc and apply the park brake. I would then rotate the propeller until it was on a compression stroke. Then I would turn the master on, mags on, and prime the engine, (usually enough charge in the battery to give the 520 a squirt) and set the throttle an inch forward. I would then walk to the co-pilot side, stand behind and to the right of the propeller and placing a rag on my hand to protect against the sharp edge of the prop pull down through the compression of the motor, making sure you and your body are well clear of the disk and are not going to be knocked forward into the propeller if the aircraft lurches forward by a strut or a low wing/high wing leading edge.

Once the engine is started (takes a few goes on a 520) climb in through the copilot door and into the pilot seat check your Ts and Ps and remove the chocks by leaning out of the door with your feet on the brakes.

I know a non pilot is not allowed to manipulate the controls however you can brief a passenger on how to use the toe brakes and get them to help you if you feel as the skipper that they are competent. You can also brief them on how to shut the engine down if it lurches forward uncontrollably by pulling the lever closest to them which is the mixture.

You are operating outside of the POH and the REGS if you do this so you must weigh it all up and be prepared for the consequences if it goes pear shaped.

I'm not advocating the above procedure, it is up to YOU to seek the knowledge and training of someone who is authorized to give it and have it stamped or entered in your logbook to say you have received the training. It is also a last resort option and if you can contact your base, do so first and discuss with the owner/cp/engineers before attempting a hand start. If you do something recklessly and ill planned then you must be prepared to accept the consequences.

[Two_dogs]

and set the throttle an inch forward

Cleared for takeoff ...

[D-J]

Quote:
and set the throttle an inch forward
Cleared for takeoff ...

good old case of know your aircraft.....

[RadioSaigon]

The C206 has a rotary ignition so you can't check grounding...

Not picking on you mate, but that's just another nonsense OWT.

What on earth difference does the switch type make??? They both (rotary or individually switched) do the same job -take a single mag to earth or both mags to earth. All the ignition function checks can be fully established by appropriate use of whatever switch type you may have! Anyone telling you otherwise is talking through a hole in their head.

Your concerns re the exhaust system potentially suffering damage are valid -to a point. Conducted properly, a mag drop or dead-cut check poses absolutely no threat to your engine!!! The dead-cut should only ever be done at or very near to engine idle RPM -not (emphatically) 1200RPM or whatever other arbitrary figure your freshly-minted instructor currently espouses. You mag function (drop check) is appropriately done at 1200RPM or thereabouts -because you already know 2 things from having done your dead cut at idle: 1) you mag is working and 2) it's earthing when commanded to do so. No further threat to your engine exists from doing a function check at that (or the higher ~1800/2000rpm) engine speeds. Other than...

Inadvertantly flicking both mags off or rotating the switch one stop too far to the left. If your mags are earthing properly (that dead-cut again) your engine will stop. DO NOT SELECT YOUR MAGS BACK 'ON' -that's what does the damage. Allow the engine to stop completely, turn off your avionics and do a normal restart. The only damage suffered will be to your pride -and potentially (minor) damage to your wallet in the bar later.

The Green Goblin: I'm with the others on that throttle setting. 1" open is about 7/8's of 1" too far for an Armstrong start on a -520 or indeed any big-block Continental or Lycoming IMO. I'd use 1" open to prime, then just barely crack the throttle for the start. Wouldn't even bother trying to Armstrong a hot, injected engine either (been there, done that), unless the situation was absolutely desperate. Carburetted engines seem to start relatively easily regardless of the size.

A37575: huh? That's nonsense. :ugh:

[The Green Goblin]

The Green Goblin: I'm with the others on that throttle setting. 1" open is about 7/8's of 1" too far for an Armstrong start on a -520 or indeed any big-block Continental or Lycoming IMO. I'd use 1" open to prime, then just barely crack the throttle for the start.

I used to just push it far enough forward that my pointing finger was straight touching the dash with my palm on the throttle head.

On the A36 I would prime fully open for a second or so then close the vernier and give it about 3 half winds forward.

[SM227]

I have been told by a very wise LAME/pilot that when starting any carburetted engine you should always have the throttle closed completely for any start and then increase it slowly and smoothly once it has started. The theory goes that with the throttle closed, the idling jet will give the engine what it needs to start. This avoids it 'racing' up to a high RPM straight after start which would happen if the throttle was open, which is not good for the cold engine.

Something else I've been shown by a pilot recently is if the engine fires then dies again, give the throttle a quick pump as it dies to give it another squirt of fuel. I gave it a try and found that it seemed quite rough on the engine as it was doing a lot of starting and stopping before it eventualy kicked over. Anyone heard of this technque? Good or bad for the engine?:confused:

[Lasiorhinus]

I did have a bit of a problem on my last ship though........... you can hand swing that PT6 all day and nothing happens. :E

Wiz, mate, you're just not swinging it fast enough :eek:

[Horatio Leafblower]

Matey

everything you described sounds fine but the only Cessna I have ever flown fitted with IO-520 AND a co-pilot's door is a C185.

I'm too fat, too old and too lazy to climb in the window of a C206! :eek:

[the wizard of auz]

Get your Nanna to do it Wiz
Nah, I got a better plan........ I'll get Lefty's mum to suck start it. :ok:

[rcoight]

everything you described sounds fine but the only Cessna I have ever flown fitted with IO-520 AND a co-pilot's door is a C185.


C210?

I once had an engineer hand start a C310 for me and was quite impressed.
It started pretty easily.

No way on earth I would have done it though...

[sockedunnecessarily]

If, according to so many people here, hand starting is safe, then why do airframes continue to be written off and people severely injured?

Sure, your answer to that is "they don't know how to do it right".

Well history tells us that people will keep getting injured/killed and planes will keep getting destroyed as long as people think that hand starting is acceptable.

If it was safe, Cessna would have put it in their POH.

[The Green Goblin]

If it was safe, Cessna would have put it in their POH.

If it were in the POH and someone cocked it up, the'd sue Cessna.

Matey

everything you described sounds fine but the only Cessna I have ever flown fitted with IO-520 AND a co-pilot's door is a C185.

I'm too fat, too old and too lazy to climb in the window of a C206!

The only Cessna with 520's that I have flown in that Doesn't have a Co-Pilot door is the Cessna 402/404!

206/207/210/310 All seem to have 'em :)

[185skywagon]

GG,
Most 206's do not have a RH front Door

185

[The Green Goblin]

GG,
Most 206's do not have a RH front Door

185

The only ones I have experience with are the P model and admittedly most of my Cessna experience was on the 210 not the 206.

I know the new ones produced after '98 don't have them but I haven't seen any new ones in the GA companies yet. They seem to buy Airvans now instead :{

[185skywagon]

This is getting off topic, but the 206 hasn't had a front RH door since 1964 according the Cessna Pilots assoc.

185

[The Green Goblin]

hmmmmm

I was under the impression about 800 odd were built with the copilot door. Would be interesting if anyone can find the statistics and build dates.

GG

[poteroo]

It's in the designation, ie, a U206has no copilot door and the RHS double rear doors, but a P206 had the copilot door but no wide rear doors - just a cargo compt door as in 182's.

happy days,

[185skywagon]

I stand corrected. There were some variants that had the older config of 2 front doors.
see here courtesy of CPA

http://www.cessna.org/members/publications/model_histories/206hist.pdf

[Stationair8]

Do you log that flight in the logbook, or just give it a miss?

The 205 had both left and right hand doors and a small door at the rear on the rhs as well.

[gkja]

I've recently seen a U206H with a co-pilots door as well as the cargo doors.The door is smaller than the pilots door and they have added a small window between it and the cargo doors.

[Pinky the pilot]

I have been told by a very wise LAME/pilot that when starting any carburetted engine you should always have the throttle closed completely for any start and then increase it slowly and smoothly once it has started

The LAME/pilot quoted above is indeed very wise. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the secret is exactly that. Throttle fully closed.

I was shown the technique by the then Chief Pilot of Douglas Airways when I started with them in January1990. This was just after Scott L and myself had completed the endorsement training on the Bongo. The CP said to us,
''Right you blokes. Now I'll show you something you might find useful. Say it's late on a Friday afternoon, you're on a strip the other side of the Owen Stanleys, you just want to get back to Moresby and go to the the Aero Club for the Friday night barbie and pissup and a starter motor goes u/s!(:eek:)
So this is what you do..''

He set the park brake on the aircraft (260hp BN2a) and with ignition off set the prop to a compression stroke. Then after priming the engines normally, set the throttle of the engine to be hand started fully closed saying that the engine would start just on the idle jet. He then selected master switch and both magnetos on and climbed out and swung the prop. After about four or five swings the engine started and ran quite happily at idle.

Believe it or not but one fine Friday afternoon about 12 months later the above scenario occurred! I was indeed the other side of the Owen Stanleys desiring only to get to the Club Dero for the aforementioned BBQ and pissup and the starter on the RH engine went U/S!:mad::ugh:

After a few naughty words I set about trying the technique shown me and finally about 20 or so swings the engine started! I still remember the screams of laughter and derision being directed at me by the locals as I swung and swung at this seemingly recalcitrant piece of machinery and being somewhat thankful that I could'nt understand the 'ples tok,' otherwise I might have been offended.

But when that engine finally started, the silence from all the locals was most gratifying!!:ok: And within about four minutes I had climbed in, started the other engine and was airborne back to Moresby.

The first 'strong drink' at the Club Dero that night never tasted better!:ok: