Hi I am a CPL (H) holder, it's a tough old time to be looking for a job at the moment so I am doing my PPL (A) at my local airfield Earls Clone.

This has the added advantage of counting towards 50% of the hours I need to get my ATPL, which will hopefull help me find a job and if course its also great fun!

I need to build about 2-300 hours which is quite a lot, so if anyone doesn't need to log there hours and is willing to let me fly to helping me out please let me know, have car will travel.
I don’t have much money at the moment due to the huge amount of money it cost to train and no job of course, but I do have access to a R44 helicopter so I could return the favor that way or work something out.

Anyway this was not supposed to be a begging post, I was looking to find out what would be the cheapest aircraft to SFH or to buy into?

What is the etiquette with regards to buying into a group flying a load of hours and then selling, I would guess it would not go down very well??

The reason I ask and be hoist is my 1st helicopter job is likely to be anywhere in the world so I’d have to leave the group which is why I am shying away from it a bit.

I look forward to your thoughts

Peter

Jp.coombes@<hidden>

It seems to me that to keep costs down you are looking at something older, such as a Jodel, J3/L4 cub - anything on a Permit as opposed to C of A. The principle issue is likely to be availability, though get the right group with most usage at weekends you may be Ok if you can fly during the week. It would seem only polite to discuss your needs before you join, to see if they are happy with it.

The alternative of course is to buy! You could pick up a single seat such as a Talor Monoplane, Jodel D9 or Luton Minor for around £6,000 and it would be worth much the same when you sell it 300 hours later (properly maintained). A two seater early Jodel or Rollason would be £12,000 ish with something like a Taylorcraft a bit more.

The down side of all these aircraft,as you may have gathered, is that they are tailwheel, which means a tailwheel sign off once you get your PPL(A).

Group shares can be a fantastic way to build time and experience but they are not that liquid - you'll have to find a group that you like and then buy in (that is, if a share is available). When you want to get out, you'll similarly need to find a buyer which may be subject to vetting by other group members.

The other thing with a group is that, while you own your share, you'll be responsible for your share of costs (maintenance, insurance, parking and, if relevant, possibly big ticket items such as an engine overhaul or avionucs upgrades that the other members decide on - this will depend on the group agreement).

You may consider renting from a flying school or club. Whilst it may end up being a bit more expensive, you'll avoid potential liabilities for costs and expenses and you won't tie up your capital (remember, even though you've bought your share, there will still be fixed and ongoing hourly costs that will approach rental charges).

If you do go to a school or club, you might be able to negotiate a block discount and perhaps even a dry rate where you could rack up the hours at lower power settings and reduce the prices further.

A further possibility would be to go for a non-equity group - you pay a monthly subscription then an hourly rate (£40pcm + £80/hr for a PA28-160 in my case). You don't have to tie capital up in the aircraft and you are immune from any nasty big bills. Essentially it is just another form of aircraft hire, but is cheaper than hiring from a club and the aircraft owners are likely to look more kindly on hours building than a group ownership situation where the a/c may be their pride and joy.

The cheapest equity deal I've seen recently is a £1000 share in a Group A CFM Shadow at Sywell: £45pcm + £25/hr wet.

Hope that helps :ok:

There are groups who won't mind so long as you also muck in with managing the aeroplane (50 hour checks, cleaning it, helping with some of the paperwork), others may find it unreasonable. The thing to do is ask.

But, for those sorts of hours, almost certainly your best bet is to buy, look after the aeroplane, then sell.

For example, if you bought this (http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=13467&imid=0) for £4750, flew 200 hours in 18 months, then sold it for a bargain basement price of £3,500, I reckon your budget would look something like this:

Depreciation: £1250
Fuel: 10 L/hr x 200 hrs x £1/L MOGAS = £2,000
Tie-down at farmstrip: £30/month x 18 months = £540
Insurance: 2 years x £400pa = £800
Oil: 50 litres x £6/litre = £300
LAA fees: £300
Maintenance / permits: £400

That'll come to around £5,590 - let's call that £6k allowing a bit for stuff I didn't think of.

So, £30/hr, and a lot of fun. I can't offhand think of a way of doing it much cheaper - even in a syndicate. (Or £47.50/hr plus a free aeroplane to enjoy yourself in between the tedium of driving a modern jet.)

(Apart from charts and stuff which you'll have anyhow, obviously add in landing fees, but a little single seater like this will get treated as a microlight by most airfields so probably a normal £10/landing average becomes £5/landing so if we guess 90 mins mean flight, that'll be about £650 in landing fees compared to about £1300 for a heavier aeroplane.)


An interesting comparison, let's say you were renting a cheap Cessna at about £80/hr - the same number of hours and landings would cost you £17,300.

G

Slight problems with these costings...
Tie down outside...That's a no no with a wood and fabric aircraft like the minimax. So you are looking for hangarage.(if you take a chance and keep it outside you will never re sell it.)
rotax 2 stroke crank life is an issue, so you could be looking at £2k before the 300hrs.

I agree with Hatzflyer. You must hanger it. Minimum hangerage in my part of the world is likely to be £1,400 per year. Having said that, the figure for depreciation may be too high. A well cared for aircraft could repay you what you paid for it. Even with the worst case scenario you are still coming in at < £40 per hour with minimum capital investment.

Last I dropped in on John Hamer, who seems to singlehandedly run the Minimax club he showed me a standard conversion on a cheap second hand caravan to turn it into an enclosed trailer for a derigged Minimax.

But, it's a fair point that wooden aeroplanes need hangarage - although a microlight club may give you derigged hangarage for a lot less than £100/month since a derigged Minimax is going to take up much the same space as a derigged flexwing. I know a club in Hampshire that would do that for £25/month and I imagine might well do the same for a deriggable single seater.

My figure for depreciation was based upon an "I want to get rid of this quickly" sale price.

£2k for a 503 crank is very very pessimistic - I bought a second hand one not long ago for £700, and a completely new engine should be under £3k. Here's (http://www.conairsports.co.uk/2-st%20service%20prices.html) a reasonable estimate of 503 servicing costs if you don't want to do it yourself.

G

Isn't the Minimax a microlight ?
Nice though microlighting is and cheeep [cos I fly the Rans S4 with starter -cord -]. Unfortunately the hours don't count -towards 'A' Licence

mike hallam.

Isn't the Minimax a microlight ?
Nice though microlighting is and cheeep [cos I fly the Rans S4 with starter -cord -]. Unfortunately the hours don't count -towards 'A' Licence

mike hallam.

Most are, not all. The linked advert says it isn't, but G-INFO says it is. Worth checking I should think. If not, there are several aircraft around £8k but similar depreciation on AFORS, or this (http://www.thehangar.co.uk/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.pl?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=10282&query=retrieval) looks rather nice on another website. Cheap aeroplanes are always there, particularly via the LAA magazine.

G

Probably the absolute cheepest way would be to buy (outright) an evans VP1.
Although extremely basic, they actually fly well.
It will burn approx 2 gals /hr.
Insurance would be in the region of £500 p/a.
It will need to be hangered,(wood and fabric).
VW's are about as cheap as you can get for spares( even cheaper than a 2 stroke rotax) and quite reliable if serviced regularly.
You then sell 2 shares on a £50/month and just tip in the fuel ,negative equity basis to cover the cost of hangarage.( If you are happy to let others fly it at weekend you will find someone willing to snatch your arm off.) This is quite legal on a single seater.
You then fly the wings off it during the week.

If you are shrood, you could fly for £10/hr once you resell the plane and get your original stake back.
Hard haggling will buy a veep for around £3K

Yep agreed with other posts re: syndicates. A great way to get amongst it just get in with the right group. Easier said than done, but just do some research first. Find out about costs involved with that particular type.
I become involved with a syndicate and flew our yak 52 for several years it was a brilliant way to get time on something with a few more doo dahs and a radial engine. Then I managed to sell my share when I was ready to move on.

Do it!