Sale - 40x Typhoon - unwanted gift

[Grimweasel]

RAF Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy Says Eurofighter Typhoon Warplane Order To Be Halved | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/RAF-Air-Chief-Marshal-Sir-Glenn-Torpy-Says-Eurofighter-Typhoon-Warplane-Order-To-Be-Halved/Article/200907415349838?lpos=UK_News_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Regio n_3&lid=ARTICLE_15349838_RAF_Air_Chief_Marshal_Sir_Glenn_Torpy_S ays_Eurofighter_Typhoon_Warplane_Order_To_Be_Halved_)

Looks like we may be getting some more rotary airlift after all?? Who wants 40 Typhoons then? any FJ mates fancy a transfer to rotary to make up the numbers LOL

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Retiring Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy insisted that fewer of the £60m planes were needed because they are so adaptable.

Let's hope that we don't have too many accidents or other losses over the next 40 years.

[airborne_artist]

Which begs the question, if they knew they were going to be so firkin good, why did they over order, or is the fact that they are so firkin good a surprise, in which case did why did they not know what they were getting?

Or perhaps they just stuck their fingers in the wind, and said "The taxpayer can afford £XX Bn, so we'll get as many as we can for that amount."

So what will all those fast'n'pointy plank-driver mates do now?

[Tim McLelland]

Torpy still there then I guess - I thought he'd finally drifted off into obscurity where he belongs.

[ZH875]

Looks like Torpy has done to the RAF what Gordon Brown has done to the UK.

Would it not be better to keep the number ordered the same, but use the 'spare' frames as christmas trees, that way, money could be saved, and if our glorious pilots bend a few more, replacements could be obtained just that little bit quicker.

Will the RAF ever see its 100th birthday?
Do air ranks outnumber aircraft?.

Welcome to RAF Coningsby - Home of the Royal Air Flight.

:mad:

[Mick Strigg]

Hoorah! Common sense prevails at last.

[Data-Lynx]

Tim. Your wish should be fulfilled at 1200 today! The new CNS and CAS are already talking.

[Winco]

What a shame that Torpy will go down in the history of the Royal Air Force for nothing other than for turning it into the Royal Air Farce and landing us with a big quantity of unwanted fighters that we don't need.

The sooner he's gone, the better. A nice bloke, top pilot, but a complete nobody as far as being CAS is concerned.

Very sad to see an (ex) top bloke being unable or unwilling to stand up and be counted at a time when the RAF is struggling on it's feet. Let's hope Sir Jock has slightly bigger balls and does what is necessary to get the RAF back where it was and to where it belongs.

Winco

[Archimedes]

Hang on....

Tranche 1 = 55 aircraft
Tranche 2 = 89 aircraft

Therefore, 144 already in service/on order.

Assume that the 24 taken from the RAF slots on the production line for the Saudis are not to be replaced. According to all informed sources [i.e. not Sky] this is not the case, with the 'missing' 24 being built at the end of the second tranche. But assume that those 24 won't be appearing in RAF colours.

That leaves 120.

So according to Sky, the government is going to be signing a contract tomorrow to order er..... a total of Zero aircraft?

The actual video clip doesn't seem to be playing on the Sky site, but I can't (at the moment) help wondering whether the whole Tranche 3 business (3A and 3B, possible sales of airframes from Tranche 1 to Oman, etc) has fallen into the 'my head hurts, don't understand' category of journalism and they've interpreted the statement wrongly.

AA - the 232 was to provide sufficient numbers to equip 7 front line squadrons (envisaged at the time as replacing 4 F3and 3 Jaguar sqns) each with an establishment of 16 airframes, plus the OCU and OEU and 1435 Flt, leaving a sufficient reserve for the usual rotation in and out of storage, etc to maintain the fatigue life for that force out to 25/30 years.

I daresay that in 30 years, as the last Typhoons are running out of FI, a new generation of Ppruners, currently watching CBeebies as I type, will be cursing the decision to cut the T3 buy...

[VinRouge]

Hopefully, Fast jets loss is Rotary and Multi engines gain....

[mystic_meg]

10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1..... and cue Jacko!

[Archimedes]

What a shame that Torpy will go down in the history of the Royal Air Force for nothing other than for turning it into the Royal Air Farce and landing us with a big quantity of unwanted fighters that we don't need.


Winco - while your posts concering the chap have made it very clear that you are unimpressed with Torpy (and you're not alone), that isn't particularly fair. He wasn't responsible for the 232 figure, or for the contract which meant that getting out of the full buy of 232 seemed almost impossible because of the financial penalties that'd incur.

What has actually happened on his watch, albeit with minutes to go, is that the 232 Typhoon buy has been reduced...


Vin - I imagine that FJ's loss will be a very small gain for the SH fleet (for political reasons) and a decent uplift in the NHS budget or similar...

[ORAC]

Times: Britain's fighter jet fleet of Eurofighter/Typhoons cut by a third (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6734604.ece)

The RAF is losing more than 70 of its planned fleet of Eurofighter/Typhoon fighter .

Today in Munich it has been announced that the RAF will buy a total of 160 instead of 232. At the contract ceremony involving the four nations of the Nato Eurofighter Tornado Management Agency, Britain signed up for the third and final tranche of Typhoons, agreeing to buy 40 more, instead of the planned 88. But 24 of these will be sold to the Saudi Arabians, leaving just 16 for the RAF.

Britain ordered 55 in the first tranche and 89 in the second. However, Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy who retires today as the Chief of the Air Staff, has made it clear that he expects the RAF to operate on the basis of a Typhoon fleet of only 120 aircraft. RAF sources explained that by the time the last of the tranche-three aircraft were coming into service between 2015 and 2020, the first batch of Typhoons - in service today - would be coming to the end of their life.Today’s announcement, however, does not safeguard the RAF from further cuts in fast jets

Next year’s strategic defence review which will go ahead whoever wins the general election, will look at Typhoon numbers as well as all other Armed Forces equipment. It is possible that there will have to be further cuts in Typhoon numbers, although any cancellation of orders would bring financial penalties and cause job losses in British industry. The Munich contract signing for tranche three of Typhoon will help to safeguard about 15,000 jobs at BAE Systems, the principal British manufacturer of the multi-role aircraft. Its main factory is at Warton in Lancashire.

If a decision is made after next year’s defence review to keep all 160 planned Typhoons, this is likely to put pressure on the other major aircraft programme - the development of the Joint Strike Fighter which is to replace Harriers and is to be bought for the two proposed 65,000-tonne aircraft carriers, the first of which is already under construction. The original plan was to buy 150 Joint Strike Fighters, but ministers and service chiefs have already indicated that the review next year will be looking closely at numbers of individual platforms and weapons, not eliminating capabilities altogether.

The numbers game will affect all three Armed Forces. There is already a suggestion that the Army might lose up to two-thirds of its fleet of 300 main battle tanks.

There could also be cuts in nuclear-powered submarines, and even the carrier programme might be affected. In an interview this week for The Times, General Sir Timothy Granville-Chapman, who has just retired as Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, said that if it was possible to have only one carrier it should be considered as an option.

[Jackonicko]

Torpy was quoted as using the same 123 aircraft figure by the Daily Telegraph, whose journos made the same assumptions and similarly compared it to the figure of 232.

I made enquiries of the MoD and was told that Torpy had said no such thing, that he had never said that we required 'half the number' and that his figure of 123 was for the forward fleet, and thus marked a modest reduction from 137 to 123 aircraft.

As others have already pointed out, the UK already has more than 123 aircraft on order. In fact the number is 160 aircraft. There are 53 Tranche 1, (including the MAFT and two IPAs, and one ISPA - so 49 for the RAF), 67 Tranche 2 (91 minus the 24 Saudi diverts), with 40 more to follow in Tranche 3A.

Typically, the Times are wrong in the detail. The 24 sold to the Saudis are in Tranche 2, and are not being replaced as planned. All 40 T3A jets will go to the RAF.

And officially, T3B for 48 further aircraft has not been cancelled.

What is increasingly clear is that we will have just five squadrons.

[rata2e]

Where is Jacko? Was the news too much for him?

[Jackonicko]

1) It isn't news. We've known that the UK was signing for 40, not 88 today for MONTHS, and that the Saudi diverts weren't being replaced at the end of T2 for weeks.
2) It wasn't too much for me.

The usual ill-informed bol.locks was, however, and the tired, short-sighted, narrow-minded, blinkered "if it isn't useful for Afghan right now we don't need it" prejudice, backed by the usual tired Grey Funnel and brown job anti-FJ nonsense is certainly discouraging for anyone with half a brain to have to trwal through.

[Archimedes]

Where is Jacko? Was the news too much for him?

He was 3 minutes ahead of you....

[Navaleye]

I agree with Jacko - not news. However in the current climate in makes perfect sense. The chopped squadrons can be equipped with F35s at a later date.

[Doctor Cruces]

I fear that any money saved will not go to RW or AT, but into the ever growing bill of keeping "Don't know, don't care" scroungers sitting on their idle ar*es at home instead of getting out and finding work. Want some more money, get a job? Not likely just have another kid and get mopre tax credits!!

Rant over(for now until I deal with the next claim!"!!).


:ugh::mad::uhoh::mad::ugh:
Doc C

[VinRouge]

Dont worry, the tories are coming!

[NURSE]

if its such a flexible airframe why not replace some or all of theTonka 4 fleet with them!

[Squirrel 41]

Jacko,

Thanks for the confirmation of the numbers merry-go-round. I assume that the 48 additional Saudi aircraft are in fact additional and will be built ("built" presumably being a malleable concept) in Saudi.

Out of interest are the Saudi jets CKD? Or are the Saudis actually gaining the indigenous capacity to bang out Typhoon unsupported? And out of interest, are the 48 going to be T2 or T3A build?

And where would further export aircraft be built? Of Oman, Japan Brazil and India? Presumably only the Omanis would not undertake domestic production - and if the Saudis were building them on their doorstep, does the deal allow for any Omani purchase to come from Saudi?

But would be a little surprised if they go below six frontline Sqns (plus 17(R) and 29(R)) - three at each.

S41

[hulahoop7]

Any news on what these 40 aircraft will get? Conformals and the new radar were mentioned earlier this month.

[Winco]

Archimedes

Torpy was instrumental in getting Typhoon into service and was also heavily involved in the final numbers ordered, they are the facts.

It's not that I don't like Torpy full stop. I used to admire the guy greatly and he was (is) an excellent pilot. Unfortunately he has failed to display anny of the leadership skills that I believe are needed by a CAS. He has constantly refused to stand up to the government on anything - including the cuts to his own beloved Typhoon fleet!

His performance, leadership and personal qualities following the loss of the Nimrod were, frankly, appalling. For the CAS to say that Nimrod was 'as safe as it needs to be' shows a distinct lack of understanding of the fleet and an arrogance that beggars belief.

His only 'claim to fame' is the introduction of Typhoon into service. It's a shame that the so-called head of UK Air Power didn't forsee the need for so many other assets, other than his own personal little toy!! I do agree with you that the money saved will not find it's way into more SH or AT. I suspect that it will go towards supporting asylum seekers, refugees and if there is anything left, we'll send it out as foreign aid!

I'm delighted he has gone. The head of the RAF needs to be a leader, not a poodle.

Winco

[A2QFI]

Was he more or less use than Mike Graydon?!

[Grimweasel]

Winco
"I do agree with you that the money saved will not find it's way into more SH or AT."

...but it will find it's way into other government SHAT :}:}

[Melchett01]

I've given up trying to work out how many Typhoons we're supposed to be getting - working out the various tranche permutations is worse trying to do the individual problem solving exercise at OASC!

However, I was wondering - are the earlier versions being progressively upgraded as each new tranche comes into service i.e. T1 upgraded to T2, T2 to T3 etc so that we will eventually have a common fleet? Or will we just muddle along like we have with the GR4s and their ahem 'Diamond' fleet and all the headaches that causes?

[Tim McLelland]

Tim. Your wish should be fulfilled at 1200 today! The new CNS and CAS are already talking.

What joy! Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[glad rag]

PMSL well no actually, wanna see some real spin?

BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Ministers hail jet-fighter deal (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8178324.stm)

[Finnpog]

Ahh,

Bless Auntie Beeb for 'clarifying' the matter for public consumption.

[Evalu8ter]

Navaleye,
Good point, well made. The beauty of being "in" the F35 club is, much like the F16, it is a club that will be churning out aircraft and updates for the next 20-25 years. Whether the FJ world like it or not, they are not the priority in a real fighting war happening today. However, the F-35 option will give us an ability, in future years, to re-assess priorities and, if necessary, increase the number of FJ squadrons.

Yes, I know, we might get caught short. But the FJ mafia running the RAF have totally failed to anticipate the need for SH/AT to fight the war we're fighting now. Perhaps the RW mafia in charge in 10 years time will play a similarly fast and loose game with priorities?

The sad thing is that, as the RW force is finding now, you can't simply generate pilots thanks to the "economy" of contractorising the flying training system.

[knowitall]

"But the FJ mafia running the RAF have totally failed to anticipate the need for SH/AT"

The purse strings for ALL SH are held by land, its got bugger all to do with the FJ mafia


but hey lets not get the facts get in the way of a good rant

[Mackay]

In this climate of budget cuts, as we're seeing with the Eurofighter, I'm wondering what the knock on effect will be for the F35 program. Surely there will see a drop in the actual numbers of aircraft being ordered - but that is purely speculation.

Along with the funding for upgrades to the Pegasus Engines on the Harriers, which I read somewhere else, is expected to give them a service life till about 2018. Which leaves my mind in a bit of doubt :ugh:

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | Harriers power up with new contract (http://www.mod.uk/defenceinternet/defencenews/equipmentandlogistics/harrierspowerupwithnewcontract.htm)

[Union Jack]

Tim. Your wish should be fulfilled at 1200 today! The new CNS and CAS are already talking.

What joy! Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Now, now, Tim! That's no way to talk about Admiral Sir Jonathon Band .....:)

More seriously, and as I believe may have been mentioned elsewhere, it seems somewhat curious that all three Service chiefs are changing over in such a short timescale:confused:

Jack

[Tim McLelland]

The beauty of being "in" the F35 club

Ahh, well I suppose that all rather depends how long we stay in that particular club...;)

[Evalu8ter]

Knowitall,
Yes, Army RP pay the running costs for SH, but the RAF still mans the SH force with crews and maintainers. How about the AT force though? Who's taken the combat attrition the past few years?

Tim,
Agreed - if we intend to withdraw from F-35 then we're bu**ered. But then so is the CVF programme. IMHO better to "drip feed" F-35 over multi-years to spread the "wedge" of capital spend and gain access to later block numbers, with a ramp up if the strategic outlook changes (time permitting....)

[navibrator]

Seems to me many of you think that cutting Typhoon numbers allows money to go somewhere else. What money? C17, Typhoon, New helicopter all cut. All old frames extended until they fall out of the sky. And when the Tories get in there will be more. And if you really think we can afford JSF, forget it!

[Uncle Ginsters]

navibrator
What money? C17, Typhoon, New helicopter all cut.

And what is that based on? Barring today's Typhoon announcement, there's certainly no formal decision on additional C17s been made.

No doubt some of the money will be redirected outside of the MoD... But how could any politician overlook the chance to be seen to be adding to essential kit for our boys in Theatre....

[soddim]

Hard to believe that so many posters here seem to be rejoicing at the reduction in total Typhoon numbers. Don't they realise that the money will not be used for other defence purposes but will go instead to one of the bottomless social pits of this government.

Their naivety is only surpassed by the stupidity of those who elected this government for a third term despite their track record.

Even if the money saved could be redeployed to meet today's needs in time to make any difference, it would still leave us wondering if we had the right balance for the future.

You might not like Torpy but he knows a hell of a lot better than you what he is doing.

[Tim McLelland]

You might not like Torpy but he knows a hell of a lot better than you what he is doing.

That's the funniest line I've heard all week. :p

Agreed - if we intend to withdraw from F-35 then we're bu**ered. But then so is the CVF programme

Agreed too! When you reach a stage when both Dianne Abbot and Michael Portillo both say that the carriers are unnecessary and unaffordable, it seems safe to assume they they'll get dumped. I'm starting to think that the political spin seems to be that by identifying the carriers as being an obvious choice for savings, the F-35 can be disposed-of by proxy, claiming that it is redundant without any carrier to operate from. Cynical I know but we're talking about British politics here.

[Modern Elmo]

The chopped squadrons can be equipped with F35s at a later date.

Do you suggest that some of those be the conventional take off and landing version?

......

Could someone please describe the differences between the different tranches or trenches of Typhoons? Is Tranche 3 to get an electronically scanned radar antenna? Does the Tranche 3 budget include a line item to purchase ammunition for and certify operation of the Typhoon's gun?

[El Bunto]

Could someone please describe the differences between the different tranches or trenches of Typhoons?

A Tranche is a signed production & delivery schedule with coarse capability specifications.

The operating air forces actually organise and differentiate their airframes on the basis of Block numbers. These are indicators of equipment and capability and are numbered sequentially across production Tranches.

In RAF service, for example, Tranche 1 contained Blocks 1, 1B, 2, 2B and 5 with Tranche 2 covering Block 8.

Upgrades are performed Block-to-Block.

The primary improvement seen in Tranche 2 was in flight software and mission computers capable of handling new weapons, with some airframe changes to replace obsolescent components. The AESA may or may not squeeze into the last Tranche 2 aircraft but will doubtless have a distinctive Block number allocated.

See Target Lock: Eurofighter Typhoon : Production : UK (http://www.targetlock.org.uk/typhoon/production_uk.html) for a break-out of Blocks in RAF service.

Also be wary that some posters abbreviate ``Tranche'' as T, so context is required to determine whether T1 refers to Tranche 1 or T Mk. 1 etc.

Hope that helps

A

[NURSE]

When will the T2-T3 upgrade programme start? and are the T1 aircraft capable of being rebuilt to later spec?

could someone clarify which tranches fit into the RAF designations T,F,FGR?

[TEEEJ]

The decision to reactivate the RAF Typhoons Mauser was taken a few years ago.

Eurofighter Typhoon proves close-air support credentials for RAF (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/06/23/224826/eurofighter-typhoon-proves-close-air-support-credentials-for-raf.html)

'Weapons accuracy at Davis-Monthan was high, with 100% of released stores landing within their circular error of probability distance, and 65% scoring direct hits on their targets. Several pilots from the RAF's 3 Sqn - its first frontline unit to have received the Typhoon, initially for use only for air defence purposes - took part in the exercise, where around 700 rounds were also fired from the type's Mauser 27mm cannon. More work needs to be done with the reactivated weapon, but Atha says: "As a first step, we're there."'

Typhoon training syllabus to add multirole skills (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/03/12/222125/typhoon-training-syllabus-to-add-multirole-skills.html)

Cannons will be operable on all UK RAF Eurofighter Typhoons -24/08/2004-Flight International (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2004/08/24/186492/cannons-will-be-operable-on-all-uk-raf-eurofighter-typhoons.html)

TJ

[TEEEJ]

See following link - 'Production for the United Kingdom'

Target Lock: Eurofighter Typhoon : Production : UK (http://www.targetlock.org.uk/typhoon/production_uk.html)

From

Target Lock: Home Page (http://www.targetlock.org.uk/index1.html)

TJ

[pr00ne]

Tim McLelland,

What!

How on earth is Diane Abbot and Michael Portillo expressing an opinion defined as "reaching a stage?"

You make NO sense whatsoever in a single word you write about the F-35.

Industrially alone the UK has such a stake that withdrawal is unthinkable.

The entire future FJ programme into the foreseeable future, and a tad beyond, relies upon derivatives of Typhoon and F-35.

[Tim McLelland]

If you say so. I'm more inclined to accept the view of Thatcher's Defence Minister and a leading Labour MP (amongst many others). You accuse me of making no sense, and then you add some sweeping statement about industry, FJ future policy and so on. I trust that you're old enough and wise enough to know that these kinds of considerations count for very little in our present circumstances. But of course, feel free to think whatever you like.

[CirrusF]

I fear that any money saved will not go to RW or AT, but into the ever growing bill of keeping "Don't know, don't care" scroungers sitting on their idle ar*es at home instead of getting out and finding work. Want some more money, get a job? Not likely just have another kid and get mopre tax credits!!



I'm unemployed at the moment and all I have to say to that slur is F*ck off arrogant ****. Not everybody who is unemployed is a scrounger.

[Jackonicko]

Cirrus F,

Well said, and sorry to hear about your circumstances.

It could easily happen to almost any of us, and if it did, we'd find out how difficult it is to get another job. I had a few weeks claiming the dole in 1983, and it was utterly soul-destroying.

There seems to be an unfortunate increase in witless right wing prejudice on this board.

Too many modern Tories are unintelligent and nasty, lacking brains, empathy, and real 'class'. Proper old school Tories like Gilmour, Pym, Eden, MacMillan et al must be turning in their graves.

[Wrathmonk]

Eval

Army RP pay the running costs for SH

... and the last 3 heads of Air RP (including the current incumbent) who ensure

the RAF [still] mans the SH force with crews and maintainers

have all been RW mates.:}

[althenick]

The usual ill-informed bol.locks was, however, and the tired, short-sighted, narrow-minded, blinkered "if it isn't useful for Afghan right now we don't need it"

Well said Jacko - Nice to see your warming up tothe idea of Carriers :O

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Dated last Friday (although it wasn't there at 1715);
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/NewBatchOfTyphoonAircraftAnnounced.htm (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/NewBatchOfTyphoonAircraftAnnounced.htm)

The standard of writing was, as ever, remarkable:


The 40 Tranche 3 aircraft will be equipped for electrical, cooling and computing power to deal with projected high-technology future updates, such as new radar and new weapons, to maintain its combat edge over predicted and emerging threats.
</SPAN>

Painted green, this could be quite popular around Christmas;

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/13751BD1-3258-4CDC-BD63-7FD6089EA5F6/0/GLD082258.jpg

[Tim McLelland]

You make NO sense whatsoever in a single word you write about the F-35.
Industrially alone the UK has such a stake that withdrawal is unthinkable

Okay, well try this :-

Defence jobs at risk as MoD drops jump jet fighter engine - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/5978437/Defence-jobs-at-risk-as-MoD-drops-jump-jet-fighter-engine.html)

...and I'm sure this is just the first overture in a long saga. It smacks of a panic compromise which suggests (does it not?) that the whole programme is in danger of being dumped - kinda like I said really ;)

[Modern Elmo]

F-35B will continue no matter what your MoD decides. It's OK.