ATC in Indonesia

[Massey058]

I know this a low-traffic forum but I would really like to get an idea from people in the know.

Is anyone familiar with the training of ATCO's in Indonesia? While infrastructure in Indonesia is generally awful, ATC here is amazingly frustrating at times. A lot of major airports have radar coverage with a few large ones that are still procedural, all well and good. However, at times you are left pulling your hair out thinking what the hell is going on?

Some problems stem from the lack of English comprehension by the controllers and this means diverting from the 'script' does make life more difficult. This can really add to stress when things are going pear-shaped.

Strangley, a controller who seems perfectly competent one day can then send you on a collision course with a 737 the next day. Given the proximity to Malaysia and Singapore - who in my limited dealings seem to have very competent controllers is their no co-operation in terms of training and/or advice etc?

Of course I realise as pilots we only have a small picture of what is going on and what they are dealing with but there are just so many examples of things bordering on the ridiculous.

058

[Gards]

Flying to Jakarta scares me on a regular basis! I hear you!1

[smiling monkey]

I doubt whether there's anything much you can do to improve the situation there. I remember a Qantas 767 a few years ago, was given clearance to descend below their LSALT whilst on descent in to Denpasar from the north. Good thing there was someone alert in the cockpit.

What you could do to help other pilots, Massey058 is to give an account of the actual problem you encountered with ATC. Was it a misunderstanding due to language comprehension? Or was it something else? At least this will help to give a heads-up to other pilots in the future.

[Massey058]

General language comprehension is the one of the biggest problems. It often seems that when you try and request something 'off the script' you tend to get ignored or they just don't understand. Like requesting a VOR approach instead of the ILS. Or asking to overfly a particular area (grass airfield, which controllers should know about).

Other curiosities like requesting a visual approach but them constantly asking if you have the runway in sight (during the day) and not clearing you for the visual approach until you say you have the runway in sight.

They seem to struggle with speed differences and obviously don't read the flight plan to give them an idea of the speed requirements. Small aircraft get handled more often than not as though they are a 737 or A320. On numerous occasions we try and get through to ATC what we can handle but this it seems is soon forgotten.

While they seem to apply massive separations at time in the radar environment in the non-radar environments there have been numerous close-calls and this seems to stem from a lack of situational awareness. At one aerodrome when an approach frequency was finally brought online there seemed to be little co-operation and communication between tower and approach.

Also outside of Soekarno-Hatta it seems that no other aerodrome in the country has a ground frequency meaning even at international airports there are 737/A320's calling for start while controllers are dealing with circuit traffic and take-off and landing traffic.

There are so many examples.

[leewan]

A bit OT, but I have heard from some ppl that at a certain Jakarta ATC's frequency, pop music could be heard loud and clear over the radio.Aircraft VHF radio if anyone is wondering. Anyone has experienced this before ?

[Massey058]

Yep! Happens in a few other places around the country too.

[leewan]

WTH !:eek: And no airline or any of the airlines respective aviation authorities have stepped in to tell the Indon aviation authorities to fix this problem.
I do remember seeing the BA9 on the ACI series on NGC where the BA tech crew tells the Jakarta ATC repeatedly that he has lost all 4 engines and the Jakarta ATC replies, "Copy that, lost no 4 engine" getting the BA tech crew flustered.

[Slasher]

Other curiosities like requesting a visual approach but them constantly asking if you have the runway in sight (during the day) and not clearing you for the visual approach until you say you have the runway in sight.

Yep thats written into many AIPs around the region. Just having land or water in sight doesnt count.

General language comprehension is the one of the biggest problems

Not only in Indo. Try China! :ugh:

But we all knew this ICAO English Proficiancy nonsense was a bloodey joke anyway. :hmm:

[sayap-patah]

Hey ,you massey058! first off all i would like to inform you that Indonesian ATC is one of the best controller in the world (what i mean here is the persons not the equipment ). The air traffic in Jakarta (soekarno Hatta) now increase by 87% within 2 years, they are using both runway for take off and landing, not like in Sepang Kuala Lumpur while they are too afraid to use those kind of policy, and i'm sure even in New Zealand they don't have something like this too (and in Jakarta they do have delivery frequency for atc clearence). I've been flying around the world, working in 5 different companies ( far east, Usa, Europe, and now in middle east), i think your opinion is premature, you need to make more comparison, do you know how many airmiss in USA happen because of ATC? My English not so good, but i'm still understand what ATC in shenzen said to me without 'say again' or even in sapporo. It's a matter of from which perspective you look at this , if you have enough experience and not pushing your ego to make people understand you rather than you understand others, you will become a better person and able to fly in comfort every where in the world.

[in FACT is]

sayap-patah, you are fully right:ok: and I'm 100% agree, you don't have to comment for this topic it is fully for unprofessional pilot (if they are pilot) or may be just PPL holder that were so exciting for the first time flying out of their home :ugh: I' have been flying in China too or just take example India, they are suppose to have good english, just try to communicate with Mumbai, Chennai on HF then this kind of pilot will cry in the whole flight:{

[Massey058]

Interesting comments, I have been flying in Indonesia for well over a year and have encountered some good controllers. However these very same controllers seem to fall apart under the same circumstances at a different time.

English comprehension is a very real issue. If something is not on the 'script' of what they expect then a request is often ignored. The other day a controller wanted to warn a company aircraft of an unidentified target on radar at their 12 o'clock (very professional of the controller) but there was a considerable amount of dead air on the approach frequency as the controller hummed and harred about how to get across his message.

You should be able to request a VOR approach without multiple calls and banging your head against the glaresheild to end up having your request ignored.

I haven't dealt with Soekarno-Hatta but have had near misses at Halim and been given very dubious clearances by approach. By far the worst so far for the volume of near misses has been Papua, admittedly more difficult for controllers because it is procedural. Some blame also 'lies' with other operators who are not always truthful with their positions and eta's.

Yes Soekarno-Hatta has clearance delivery (which I mentioned in an earlier post already) but why not other airports in Indonesia? Medan and Sentani would really benefit from a ground frequency. Runway utilisation at times is also very bad.

You don't seem to understand that I not getting at the controllers themselves, it is the system and the training they obviously don't receive.

I'm sorry in FACT is but aside from your own unprofessionalism I can't really see the point you are trying to make. And to sayap-patah I'm not pushing my ego at all, couldn't care less about my ego nor losing face if I am wrong. Its about safety not comfort. Many orang Indonesia pilot also agree with the problems we face. I do not like to speak any more than simple pleasantries in bahasa Indonesia on the radio because the international language of aviation is english for a reason, safety - so we are all on the same page.

I don't believe the US is necessarily an example to follow. I'm not saying Indonesia need follow anyone else although much can come of information and technique sharing but that they certainly need to improve things - especially with the continued increase in traffic.

[barrybeebone]

I can't speak for the quality of the controllers but I do know they are under paid (but that is the norm in Indonesia). Their infrastructure is mostly poor, both in the tower, upper airspace management equipment and systems and the actual radar equipment in and around airports.

Currently, ATC is split into 2 in Indonesia. Angkasa Pura 1 and 2 (AP1 and AP2) both operate half the country each. This has meant they have different training standards and equipment and thus part of the reason for your poor service. This situation is currently changing and the DGCA is moving to set up one ATC body. But as these things move at glacial pace, don't expect change in this decade). DGCA is also setting up ADSB across the country. I believe about 5 locations are already trialling this.

The training programme for most controllers is poor also. Most are trained at Curug, which is an under funded facility where instructors are paid very little. The way most education goes in indonesia is that if you want to pass, you pay for it. I have never seen this at Curug but would not be surprised if it happened. To my knowledge, Curug is the only ATC training body and is wholly funded by the Government - hence the lack of funds and wages.

Back to AP1 and AP2, these two are the main airport operators and are Government owned enterprises. They both have major leakage of funds into the pockets of their executives so the necessary funds required to invest in training and equipment don't really exist. Aside from this they are expected to pay the government a large dividend each year and AP2 I believe is the biggest dividend contributor of all Indonesian Government enterprises.

Despite my miserable facts above, AirServices Australia has been doing some fantastic work recently trianing ATC staff and assisting them to implement SMS and training programs. Unfortunatley their funding for this runs out next year. I believe one of the biggest issues facing AirServices though is the lack of commitment by senior management in AP1 and 2 to getting the assistance programmes off the ground.

Change needs to coem from the top!

[smiling monkey]

The other day a controller wanted to warn a company aircraft of an unidentified target on radar at their 12 o'clock (very professional of the controller) but there was a considerable amount of dead air on the approach frequency as the controller hummed and harred about how to get across his message.

I would have thought something like this would have been standard phraseology? "Traffic at 12 'oclock"?

In bahasa, "pesawat di hadapan, jam dua belas". Senang saja mas, tapi, mungkin kontroller ini sedang sibuk dengan keadaan lain, kot, seperti berkomunikasi dengan kontroller sektor lain. Siapa tau? :confused:

You can't jump to conclusions. If it was a safety issue, then submit an incident report.

[Massey058]

Thank you barrybeebone! No surprises there I guess, its a great country but the issues you detail are essentially across the board in Indonesian life and I don't think I have the patience to see it greatly improved.

You can't jump to conclusions. If it was a safety issue, then submit an incident report.

Benar! Tapi seiring waktu anda mengembangkan gambar (needed google for the develop word - masih belajar).

In that instance he did get across the "unidentified traffic on radar at 12 o'clock" it was after that there were the humms and harrs as if he wanted to say more but didn't know what, not simply divided attention. Lack of procedures maybe, not the controllers fault - quite possibly.

Hence why I originally asked:
Is anyone familiar with the training of ATCO's in Indonesia?

A senior controller once laughed when we told him about a serious ATC incident (you can read into that a lot of ways but the problem wasn't dealt with)

A radar controller from Jakarta was once as perplexed as we were by the instructions we were being given by a tower controller and he was just a passenger not privvy to the conversation.

But I do know there are some out there who are with it.

[veloo maniam]

Sayap-patah quoted "The air traffic in Jakarta (soekarno Hatta) now increase by 87% within 2 years, they are using both runway for take off and landing, not like in Sepang Kuala Lumpur while they are too afraid to use those kind of policy," Unquote
KLIA is not using simultaneous approach for a simple reason called safety.
An equipment called NTZ alarm is not available at the Approach Control.
It has nothing to do with being afraid because if fear is the yardstick in managing air traffic, then none of us would ever have applied for this lovely career. It's all about being wise at work and being safety concious at all times.
Even without this NTZ alarm, we still cater for those who request simultaneous approaches using a side-step method. It is because of numerous complaints from departing acft that we refrain from using side-step as much as possible.
Until and unless the NTZ alarm is fixed. KUL Ctlers will not apply simultaneous approaches.Traffic volume has increased in South East Asia. I am sure you would agree with me brother. KUL and JKT has a good rapport as far as ATC is concerned. .Cheers from Lumpur Ctl.Terima kasih Pak dan Ibu.:ok:

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Veloo old buddy,

How is life in KUL. Have been flying Europe for a while but I do believe I see a KUL flight on my roster next month. Go for it buddy. I always seem to get seamless clearances on hand over between Kul and CGK on the west airways and SIN on the southern and eastern routes. Keep up the great work.

As a heavy jet operator for over 40 years and having operated everywhere in the world I think that one has to adapt to each and every situation differently. For example Africa comes with a whole set of problems. But experience teaches us that we need to be situationally aware and constantly on the ball. Reconfirming clearances and monitoring altitude and traffic changes. There is no way anybody is going to change the way things are done there.

So back to Indonesia. Yes language is a big problem as English is a second language. Yes the radio calls are not strictly ICAO formatted. (The USA is probably worse) Yes training can be improved etc. etc. But look at their financial, cultural and socioeconomic constraints. Yes Indonesia is a developing country and the real problem is financial. I do hear a lot of pilots complaining about many ATC problems around the world but I do not see them dipping into their pockets to form a fund to assist in enhancing ATC services in developing countries around the world. Just my buck’s worth. :ok:

Wooblah

[arba]

sayap-patah : "first of all i would like to inform you that Indonesian ATC is one of the best controller in the world ".

I guess you right, untill the "dirty approach" by an operator came to them, then they start treating/controlling other local operator's a/c unfair even unsafe. But that was 2-3 years ago, maybe they're better now.

[in FACT is]

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

But experience teaches us that we need to be situationally aware and constantly on the ball. Reconfirming clearances and monitoring altitude and traffic changes. There is no way anybody is going to change the way things are done

100 % agree, I think I call it prefessional pilot:ok:

Massey058

go fly somewhere around the world then you will see the reality is not the same as the book say and million reason why:{ your part only the ATC you haven't see other part of aviation:=

[Massey058]

go fly somewhere around the world then you will see the reality is not the same as the book say and million reason why your part only the ATC you haven't see other part of aviation

Strewth, so you're happy with the status quo then? Nowhere should ever change and improve? Tailored arrivals - bah humbug!

Not the same as the book? Gold! :}

Should we all roll over and die? Professionalism means accepting what is will always be and we can do nothing to improve our lot? Really? Situational awareness is a given for a 'professional' pilot/controller. I never called for a change in the 'way' things are done per se. Just would be 'nice' to see the 'way' used

Just to reiterate I know Indonesia is developing, its hard not to miss that, but there is a significant and continuing increase in traffic and the systems are not in place in what is already a highly dangerous aviation environment. Right now I don't give a rats about elsewhere (US et al) or even NZ because I am flying here and I think things can be safer/more efficent/better etc.

Is that the fault of the Medan Director, Ujung Control, Rahadi Tower, Jayapura Appraoch or Cilicap Radio personally? Nope! Will it change overnight? Nope! Should I roll over and die? Well I say Nope, you might disagree. :{

Woah bit of a rant there.

058

[IndAir967]

just try to communicate with Mumbai, Chennai on HF then this kind of pilot will cry in the whole flight

Well Mumbai has always been an pain.. but chennai has never been trouble to me surprisingly !

[veloo maniam]

Hello Capt Wooblah..very nice indeed to hear from you Sir. KL is just fine and smooth sailing.Things are still cheap. If u do drop by in KUL give me a tinckle. Maybe we can meet up sometime. I have been quite busy with the MAS forum. Hence u see little of my postings but I still read PPRUNE all the time.
Totally agree with you on the situational awareness thingy. There have been occassions where communications is not established. Hence we maintain contact eventhough the acft may already be in someone else's FIR.
It's the helping out each other thingy. I still remember the day when the MH flight from Joburg to Buenos Aires called KUL ATC via Satellite phone to relay position report because nobody was answering them.We sent an AFTN message to Joburg. Every ATC unit has it's own limitations which is beyond the Ctlers ability to overcome. Basically it is the dollars and sense that prevents the best equipment and the required training sessions for Ctlers. However I believe it should not relief the CTler from giving their best because we are service providers. With that in mind, I think everyone should endeavour to give their best. Happy flying Sir.:ok:

[Khaosai]

Hi,

not familiar with the the training ATC get in Indonesia but i have been flying into Jakarta most months for almost 7 years now, and overall its not too bad.

Even though its mentioned on the ATIS, i have never received a clearance from the delivery frequency, but that could well be due to the early morning departure times we have.

Often cleared for take off by the ground controller, no big deal but not a common occurrence elsewhere in the world.

Blatant preference to the local carriers resulting in excessive vectoring and fuel burn, frustrating, but thats life. Once as a bit of fun had to remind them that our destination was CGK, attempt at humour lost on the controller and he then turned us towards the airfield, happy days.

Rgds.

[gengis]

Hey Khaosai, i'm going off the topic for a bit here.... but you have a really good profile name..! :ok:;)

Alright, back to where you guys left off!

[flightsafety737]

some of them we're good but some of them is bad,once i flew a month ago went to soekarno hatta runway 25R,when on short approach leaving 1000 feet,the tower still released the traffic from hold on short 25R,i was 3 nm from the touchdown 25R..(yet,another trip report for the tower)

i love you full
(in memoriam Mr."Mbah" Surip)

[in FACT is]

so, what's the problem, I was cleared to land in DELHI rwy 10 at 2.6 nm to touch down while the other aircraft just landed and clear the runway, if you can not make it than G/A